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S02.E11: The Abyss

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Amy rushes to protect Frank, who lies defenseless in a hospital. Pilgrim gets some crushing news, and Karen Page calls in a favor.

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Ok, so does Frank know that Matt Murdock is Daredevil? I always thought he kind of does, but that makes the comment to Karen about how Matt Murdock is who she should be with to be HILARIOUS. I guess he doesn't know. I guess Murdock is the lesser of two evils, but wow. 

It also discussed "Krank" as a potential couple in a way that has never been done before.  All that "you can't just keep loving dreams" and "it doesn't change the way I feel about you" stuff. Way more text when it had just been subtext before. And he was totally going to kiss her before they got interrupted, right? 

I'm just kind of obsessed with their chemistry. I always have been. And I'm a little sad if this is the end of the line for these two characters. 

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Yeah I don't think Frank is in on Matt's identity.  Karen's expression when he said that was a great mix of exasperation and 'if you only knew.'  I hoped there would be time for Karen to come into this season and I was glad to see her.  I do like them together.  It was a more explicit discussion about the possibility of something between them.  It was a bit melancholy, but it was honest.  They have no illusions about each other at this point.

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I’m pretty sure he knows that Matt is Daredevil. When he shot the ninjas on the rooftop, Matt didn’t have the mask on. However, Frank doesn’t know that Karen knows and Karen doesn’t know that Frank knows.

I basically watch this show to see Karen. I don’t want them in a romantic relationship, but I love their friendship. 

I’m glad that her shoes are the only things she had to give to creepy morgue guy.

Seeing Brett and Karen makes me mad that there will be no more Daredevil.

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18 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I’m pretty sure he knows that Matt is Daredevil. When he shot the ninjas on the rooftop, Matt didn’t have the mask on. However, Frank doesn’t know that Karen knows and Karen doesn’t know that Frank knows.

I basically watch this show to see Karen. I don’t want them in a romantic relationship, but I love their friendship. 

I’m glad that her shoes are the only things she had to give to creepy morgue guy.

Seeing Brett and Karen makes me mad that there will be no more Daredevil.

When she said she worked for "Nelson and Murdock" and I thought, "YEAH, YOU DO."

 

And yeah, the Daredevil/Murdock thing- I totally thought Frank knew, too. And maybe what Frank meant was that Murdock was a better person in general (he knows, for instance, that Daredevil or "Red" doesn't kill people- Frank talked a lot about being a monster with Karen.) Daredevil and Frank had long discussions about the justice/who deserves to die in Daredevil Season 2. It's another reason I think Frank might know- a way Matt disguises himself is that he doesn't really do that much talking with people in the suit, and when he does, he's in the shadows. If he, as Daredevil, hung out with Foggy in the suit, Foggy would've figured it out.  Frank and Daredevil spent hours together, debating, and Frank listened to Matt Murdock in court. In addition to the ultimate fight with no mask in season 2. 

I also just love how Bernthal plays this character- he does a bunch of little things, like "Does that Matt Murdock know you're here?" instead of "Does Matt Murdock know you're here?".

And I know Karen isn't everyone's favourite, but I love her in this. I wish there was more of her. 

Edited by Pogojoco
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I thought Frank was far enough away in the rooftop fight to not see Matt's face.  He had his sights on the ninjas.

Matt's blindness is a deterrent to anyone thinking he's Daredevil, even when they sound alike.

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Is there some contract agreement that said that The Punisher is allowed to use Karen Page but not allowed to have her and Frank kiss? That “inopportune interruption” cheat is annoying. Just have the girl wait 10 more seconds; it won’t hurt the story any.

Despite that, I did like this episode. I’m always delighted when Karen turns up here. Frank getting sort of ganged up on by three women he’s repeatedly had to save was kind of amusing, and appropo in the face of him thinking he’d killed those other three women. And I too was relieved/amused that the guy in the morgue legitimately just an oddball/shoe-fetish guy rather than a truly disturbing creep. I didn’t even get that it might have been connected to the him when I started noticing Karen sneaking around the hospital with no shoes on — I was just like, “Karen, why are you barefoot, and why is nobody noticing that you are barefoot?” until Mahoney finally saw her.

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39 minutes ago, kickingnames said:

And I too was relieved/amused that the guy in the morgue legitimately just an oddball/shoe-fetish guy rather than a truly disturbing creep. I didn’t even get that it might have been connected to the him when I started noticing Karen sneaking around the hospital with no shoes on — I was just like, “Karen, why are you barefoot, and why is nobody noticing that you are barefoot?” until Mahoney finally saw her.

Heh, I had literally just said to my hubby "Why is she running around the hospital barefoot?" and then the morgue guy walked by in her heels and I died laughing.

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That photo of Pilgrim’s family, where none of them are smiling, makes me laugh and then creeps me out. Rebecca looks like she is a hostage. 

Poor John. Loses Rebecca while on a bender. 

I’ve grown to love the way Frank makes little gestures with his fingers to show his agitation.

It never entered my mind last episode that Frank killed the women. I was surprised when Frank said it, and I guess that’s why he stopped his fight. I don’t know why he thought he did, except that he isn’t very smart. I was sure it was a set up from the start, Billy making Frank suffer. 

Kind of done with the Frank speeches about his family, etc. I know that is his character but at some point you would think he reaches an understanding. 

Why would Karen have to do anything to see the bodies? Wouldn’t Madani have a reasonable claim on seekngvghe bodies? Also, how does she know where Frank was when he shot up there? Just Franks’s word?

Edited by Ottis
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21 minutes ago, Ottis said:

 

Why would Karen have to do anything to see the bodies? Wouldn’t Madani have a reasonable claim on seekngvghe bodies? Also, how does she know where Frank was when he shot up there? Just Franks’s word?

It's not Madani's case. Her boss doesn't want her anywhere near it. The medical examiner and detectives on the case haven't even looked at the bodies yet, other parties can't just have a look at them first.

 

I assume they are working on the assumption that Frank wouldn't just intentionally execute a few innocent women at point blank range, which is what the evidence points to.

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2 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

It's not Madani's case. Her boss doesn't want her anywhere near it. The medical examiner and detectives on the case haven't even looked at the bodies yet, other parties can't just have a look at them first.

 

I assume they are working on the assumption that Frank wouldn't just intentionally execute a few innocent women at point blank range, which is what the evidence points to.

Yes, WE can assume Madani’s boss doesn’t want her to see the bodies and we know it isn’t her case. My point is, does the morgue attendant know that? He didn’t seem to have any instructions regarding Madani. As far as he knew, she was an agent in an investigation. Reporters being kept out? Of course. Madani? Not clear. 

Frank is a wanted man. No one knows about the evidence until Madani and Karen find it. This show treats Frank as someone who does what has to be done, even if it is murder, and constantly has other characters questioning his morality and even insisting he is a criminal. Karen might insist he didn’t do it. Anyone else would want more info I would think. 

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Finally, Karen. I wasn't sure if we were going to get to see her. I don't even need her and Frank to be together romantically. I just need them to stand near each other.  That chemistry just bleeds through my TV. Dammit Twit, why you gotta be blockin' that? We probably won't even get to see her again.

 

On 1/22/2019 at 3:51 PM, Taryn74 said:

Heh, I had literally just said to my hubby "Why is she running around the hospital barefoot?" and then the morgue guy walked by in her heels and I died laughing.

Same. Lol.

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Great seeing Karen showing up and "representing" Nelson and Murdock.  Her and Frank continues to have great chemistry.  Really good episode and I liked how the bounty on Frank reared its head again.

Can John Pilgrim's story be anymore detached from the main focus this season?

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On 1/19/2019 at 5:28 PM, Pogojoco said:

Ok, so does Frank know that Matt Murdock is Daredevil? I always thought he kind of does, but that makes the comment to Karen about how Matt Murdock is who she should be with to be HILARIOUS. I guess he doesn't know. I guess Murdock is the lesser of two evils, but wow. 

It also discussed "Krank" as a potential couple in a way that has never been done before.  All that "you can't just keep loving dreams" and "it doesn't change the way I feel about you" stuff. Way more text when it had just been subtext before. And he was totally going to kiss her before they got interrupted, right? 

I'm just kind of obsessed with their chemistry. I always have been. And I'm a little sad if this is the end of the line for these two characters. 

Seriously. They need to have her just make a choice. I loathe love triangles, and here she is after two self-punishing men. Maybe this is past season three of Daredevil, and they were in a better place (Karen and Matt), but I hate the "I'd be with you, if you'd only let me" thing. That isn't fair to Matt. 

 

On 1/20/2019 at 11:35 PM, Future Cat Lady said:

I’m pretty sure he knows that Matt is Daredevil. When he shot the ninjas on the rooftop, Matt didn’t have the mask on. However, Frank doesn’t know that Karen knows and Karen doesn’t know that Frank knows.

I basically watch this show to see Karen. I don’t want them in a romantic relationship, but I love their friendship. 

I’m glad that her shoes are the only things she had to give to creepy morgue guy.

Seeing Brett and Karen makes me mad that there will be no more Daredevil.

I really like the friendships too, though - usually more than any of the romantic relationships. I thought he knew that he was daredevil, too. It's been a few years since I watched it, because I hated the second season. Frank was the best thing about it.

I was wondering what he was doing wearing her shoes. I wondered how that would fit into any plan, when she still looked like herself, and was just walking around barefoot. It took me a few minutes to realize what he'd wanted. That's creepy, but at least she wasn't pimping herself out. I felt sick at the thought of him wanting a date or a kiss, in exchange for something. 

Part of me is tempted to watch the last two episodes, but I think I've had enough violence for the day. I start to lose patience after a few episodes of anything.

Edited by Anela

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I'm really REALLY tired of the Mahoney character.   He does the same one-note Angry Guy routine in every scene and the only purpose he seems to serve is to slow up the momentum so the story doesn't conclude before it reaches 13 episodes.   I get no good guy vibe from him, like his rage comes from a burning desire to see justice done.   It seems more of an ego thing, a chip on his shoulder thing, an inflamed inferiority complex that drives him.  That's why he never wants to hear anything that might contradict the sentence he's already passed on Frank.    I was hoping Pilgrim would shoot him from behind while he was trying to cuff Frank by the ambulance.   Madani seemed as disgusted as I was when instead Mahoney climbed into the ambulance driver's seat.

By this point Billy and Krista have become sickening.   That's the problem with Marvel series IMO.  They're good at creating unlikeable villains, but then you're stuck with those villains for 13 hours, watching one improbable escape after another, listening to their repetitive soliloquies, mired in their protracted nightmares and personal torments every episode ...   I suppose the same could be said of Frank, but I like Frank.

I have never liked Karen much but she was the picture of elegance in Frank's hospital room.   I don't see those two together at all.   

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Karen!!  Glad we got Karen Page for an episode, although I hope this isn't the last time we get to see her or Deborah Ann Woll playing her.  Really hope Disney/Marvel is planning some kind of revival once all of the their shows leave Netflix (assuming that is the plan here.)

So, Frank actually didn't kill any of the woman, since Russo executed them himself and then just set things up to make it look like it was Frank.  Figures.  Also, Dumont apparently is just a good old sociopath, since her reasoning for being okay with all of this is "I didn't know them."  Well, that's just a lovely mindset for a therapist!

Still could care less about any of the stuff involving Pilgrim.

Will give the show credit for actually making me like Amy now.  Even if she naturally had the burst in on Frank and Karen right when it look like they were going to give into their lust, heh.

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All of the Karen and Frank stuff got a lot more interesting after we saw Karen's back story in that awesome Daredevil episode last season. Especially her opinion of Frank as a father.

As for the Pilgrim stuff its starting to bug me too. The CGI vein in Annette O'toole's head made me laugh. Plus if Frank and Amy wanted to stop him the easiest way would be to just get her story to the media. I mean she is trying to be killed by assassins who shot up a bar and a police station because of what she knows about a politically connected family. Even if legit news agencies wouldn't out the dude that is still news. Plus once her story is in the news it is a lot harder to kill Amy without that family being the prime suspects. If only Frank knew someone with connections at a major news paper.

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