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What a crazy finish to the cartel story.  Who the heck shot down the helo?  State police?  

TPTB reeeeeeally blew it with a lack of regret for the loss of their comrades expressed by the Team.  The entire tone was celebratory after the initial shock wore off.  Party time in the USA!  I was stunned.

It was amazing to me that after Dozo's TV announcement, the State Department stood down.   Were they actually that savvy?  Once the fig leaf of deniability was removed, the Mexican government would have been on them hard.  

What happened to the mole?   There should have been some type of exposition.

When did the comms blackout by Jason's kids get addressed?  When were they re-established?  We got happy happy lovey dovey.  I did enjoy the Daddy op in the truck surprising them.  I wonder what "music" he was made to endure.  :)

The police commander was excellent.  Under other circumstances, he and Jason would get along famously.

I think the "moment" TPTB were going for when the SEALs were ordered to lay down their weapons and submit was not quite executed properly.  Maybe it was DB just chewing through every scene.  To me, it would be the ultimate for a SEAL to surrender to another uniform.  The disgrace of such a thing was not shown.  It was all about the anger of the decision and failure.   YMMV.    

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On 1/1/2019 at 3:09 PM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

What happened to the mole?   There should have been some type of exposition.

That's always been how this show rolls...some storylines just disappear with no resolution (all the stuff with Nate, the debt that Ray had, etc.)

About tonight's episode (1/2), I thought it was pretty good.  All the Philly references (Nick Foles/Carson Wentz, Philly Philly) made me laugh.  Someone probably included them for David.

I like Davis and I like Sonny, but I hate this storyline.   As Davis said, they will both mess up their careers, and I think Davis is awesome the way she is.  Toni Trucks better not be leaving the series.   I don't know where we're headed with the OCS angle.

Thought it was cool to see Jason place Ray in control of making the call about taking the shot.

I'm going to have to do a little Googling to see how the mission points are chosen.  Tonight's were British soccer teams, but I wonder how a group of terms gets selected for each mission.  Would Jason do that, or is that up to Blackburn?

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I would have thought that Special Forces teams from friendly countries would regard each other with a little more professional courtesy but this episode just went straight stereotype with the loud, aggressive Americans versus the reserved, patient Brits. However, Jason wasn't a complete asshole like he was in the Mexico episodes. "You weren't wrong, you just weren't quite right" is a back-handed compliment I suppose.

I thought there would be a plot point around the airplane's windshield. It was established that two snipers were needed, one to take out the window and one to take out the terrorist. But at the end it looked like Clay ended up taking the shot early because he really needed to kill someone on account of the shitty day he was having so he just went ahead and took the shot. The bullet embraced some plot physics on the way and did exactly what he needed it to do. I was sure someone was going to give him a hard time for squeezing the trigger too soon but he ended up being ignored by the team for the rest of the episode. Good thing he found himself a new frog-hog, I'm tired of seeing him mope all the time.

Davis and Sonny are cute but I agree I don't see a fantastic future for this plot. Will Davis lose her shot at OCS because of her forbidden affair with a team member? Probably because that will keep her around but I also don't really care what excuse they contrive up.

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4 hours ago, dwmarch said:

But at the end it looked like Clay ended up taking the shot early because he really needed to kill someone on account of the shitty day he was having so he just went ahead and took the shot. The bullet embraced some plot physics on the way and did exactly what he needed it to do. I was sure someone was going to give him a hard time for squeezing the trigger too soon but he ended up being ignored by the team

 I thought it was on purpose because of the plan change,   I was asking myself how can Clay shoot into the cockpit once they blew the plane wheel because the cockpit should have dropped or shifted slightly.  I figured he'd only have a split second to re-focus (re-aim? regain target?) and didn't think he'd be able to make the shot.  So I guess I thought he knew he was supposed to shoot during the count just before they said execute.  But to be honest I'm not sure if that's how the plot was supposed to go or if that's me inserting a fictional filler so that part makes sense to me.

I don't want Davis to leave the show, can't Maggie get an assignment somewhere else instead?  But hoping if she does go to OCS it'll be over a hiatus or just for a few episodes and maybe she comes back to the team but in a higher position, which would really put a crimp between her and Sonny.  I'm also assuming they'll revisit the cartel mole again but a little quick mention "We're still searching, she seems to have disappeared completely, we have her relatives under surveillance" would have been nice.  Definitely the writing weak points are resolutions; either to things that were a big deal just a few episodes ago or to arcing multi-episode story lines that more "end" than resolve with a great finish.

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21 hours ago, dwmarch said:

...But at the end it looked like Clay ended up taking the shot early because he really needed to kill someone on account of the shitty day he was having so he just went ahead and took the shot. The bullet embraced some plot physics on the way and did exactly what he needed it to do. I was sure someone was going to give him a hard time for squeezing the trigger too soon but he ended up being ignored by the team for the rest of the episode...

The plan was for the sniper team to take simultaneous shots, but the bullets don't hit the windshield at the same time. The first shot will weaken the glass. The second shot takes out the terrorist. Ray was in control of the call to take the shots before giving out the execute command to Bravo team to blow out the landing gear. The Brit sniper set his rifle first before Clay and he took the shot a split second before Clay. I didn't see any issue with what Clay did during the sniper team shooting sequence.

Edited by VinceW

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12 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

 I thought it was on purpose because of the plan change,   I was asking myself how can Clay shoot into the cockpit once they blew the plane wheel because the cockpit should have dropped or shifted slightly.  I figured he'd only have a split second to re-focus (re-aim? regain target?) and didn't think he'd be able to make the shot. 

yeah they didn't really explain it and on first viewing I also thought Clay went early. But thinking about it, it makes sense that the snipers took the shot before the landing gear was blown. If the gear was taken out first the shifting of the plane could have moved the tango in the cockpit out their line of fire. This could have left them with one hostile left, locked in the cockpit with the flight crew as his hostages/victims.  So they had to take the shot, have the gear blown immediately after and then the teams breach the airplane to clear out the remaining terrorists.

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first viewing

So true that additional viewings are needed.  I sometimes do that in order to properly understand all the military references.  For example, I did a re-watch tonight and just figured out that Jason's "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over" is the military way to say WTF in response to being stood down.

With the actresses who play Stella and Alana both getting series-regular roles in series, SEAL Team does need some additional adult female perspective.  That's why it's so important that we not lose Davis.  The actress who plays Emma is also great, but Emma's a teenager.  Mandy is still dreadfully boring and dull.  It'd be nice to see Nyema (Ray's wife) more often

Edited by Ohmo

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1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

So true that additional viewings are needed.  I sometimes do that in order to properly understand all the military references.  For example, I did a re-watch tonight and just figured out that Jason's "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over" is the military way to say WTF in response to being stood down....

 

 

That phrase was used a lot in many of the early NCIS episodes when Gibbs had conflicts with military command as well as director Vance. In fact, the season 11 premiere had that title. 

Edited by VinceW

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3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

So true that additional viewings are needed.  I sometimes do that in order to properly understand all the military references.  For example, I did a re-watch tonight and just figured out that Jason's "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over" is the military way to say WTF in response to being stood down.

For future reference, a Charlie Foxtrot is more commonly known as a cluster fuck and Sierra Square, Delta Square means same shit, different day. We also have the classics FUBAR (fucked up beyond all repair) and SNAFU (situation normal all fucked up). I will give them endless credit if they ever describe something or someone as having a Total Inability To Sustain Usual Performance.

And now you know how to swear like a sailor! ;)

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On 1/2/2019 at 11:49 PM, dwmarch said:

I would have thought that Special Forces teams from friendly countries would regard each other with a little more professional courtesy but this episode just went straight stereotype with the loud, aggressive Americans versus the reserved, patient Brits. However, Jason wasn't a complete asshole like he was in the Mexico episodes. "You weren't wrong, you just weren't quite right" is a back-handed compliment I suppose.

 

They do, but then our SEALs do things like ignore base commanders in Mexico cutting his authority.  Then again the SAS would have sent enough troopers to get the job done without the need for SEALs in an ad hoc team.  And on shows from the UK the SAS team leader would be doing the same bull in the china shop routine as the Master Chief was doing, I guess it is screenwriting 101 plot point.The Master Chief did name drop a German GSG9  airplane rescue where a couple of SAS joined them just to throw a couple of then new flash bang grenades.  But any terrorist is likely to also have read that history lesson.  I was sort of suspecting Sergeant Major Blane  of The Unit to announce we are US Special Forces as he cleared the plane.

 

English might be the international aviation language but  you would think a beard worn by darker Americans  wouldn't be enough the query would be in Arabic, not English

On 1/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, Notwisconsin said:

I wonder why they hid this thread? Perhaps the PTB thought it was cancelled or something.

They said we don't post enough about this show.  Therefore no more episode threads and I guess only those wish to brave spoilers should come in. Just looking at the main page it seems as most people post about unreality programming.

Edited by Raja

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9 hours ago, Raja said:

….They said we don't post enough about this show.  Therefore no more episode threads and I guess only those wish to brave spoilers should come in. Just looking at the main page it seems as most people post about unreality programming.

This PTV practice is not new. The same was done with NCIS-LA last season and not part of any reorganization. What is definition of enough?

Edited by VinceW

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I loved the irony of quite the British backhand coming from Jason to the Brit SM.  Super Bowl references will always work for me, too!  I wonder if "Philly, Philly.", instead of the actual "Philly special.", designation was a shout out to the "Dilly, dilly!" adverts. 

The out of nowhere OK to go hot was super convenient.  Failing to see the hostages near the doors in that video upon first viewing?  Unforgivable stoopidity on the part of the entire team.  How many playbacks were done before the teams were even planted?  Wow.  Where was Blackburn's counterpart?  No SAS officers?  Really?

It was impossible to believe the bad guys would not have felt and/or not heard the rear stairway being deployed.  

The overall destruction of Bravo's discipline and cohesion is no small thing.  So many careless choices and much too much countermanding has occurred.  Time to strike the unit and reconstitute.

I'm glad to have the show and I'm grateful that we have this forum, at least, to discuss it.

Edited by Lonesome Rhodes
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On 1/1/2019 at 3:09 PM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

 

TPTB reeeeeeally blew it with a lack of regret for the loss of their comrades expressed by the Team.  The entire tone was celebratory after the initial shock wore off.  Party time in the USA!  I was stunned.

I watched this one last night and I thought it was the right level of sombreness. The team was drinking but hardly partying . And they were playing River of Deceit by Mad Season not some Katy Perry song or something.

One funny thing I did notice though that when Jason goes his wife's grave it says she was born in 1983. That was probably done to match the actresses age, but at the same time if she is 35 and has as 17 or 18 year old daughter that means she probably got pregnant in high school. And considering that Boreanaz is like 49, I don't think Jason is supposed to be 35. And now I am picturing Jason like Wooderson from Dazed and Confused going on about how he loves those high school girls.

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Are the widow and Jason heading for a relationship?  She has to move off base in a few months right? Or did they live off base already? 

Why does Sonny have to be mean to Davis? They weren’t supposed to be dating in the first place. 

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On 1/10/2019 at 4:34 PM, mythoughtis said:

Are the widow and Jason heading for a relationship?  She has to move off base in a few months right? Or did they live off base already? 

Why does Sonny have to be mean to Davis? They weren’t supposed to be dating in the first place. 

Soldiers take on the bad for the greater society. Upon seeing the Officers Candidate School packet Chief Quinn knew it would be over so initiates a break up in a way the  still Petty Officer Davis wouldn't feel bad about her breaking the relationship off for her career's sake.

Bravo 4 with his late "rocket out" call after firing the LAW and the EOD sailor Kairos, probably had the best lines in the Syria rescue mission episode.

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Sonny as the voice of reason?  Now I KNOW this show is off the rails.  :)

The hardest piece for me to accept was Mandy's anger over the orders.  Any number of times she has gone too far on bupkis backing her up.  No way a shark like her would choose the occasion of evident success to create waves.   If she were about honor, she would have refused to take part.  That she is without honor is super easy to accept.  It's fine she smelled a rat and was not pleased.  That's just a shark swimming.  Taking on Orcas?  Not so much.

I very much enjoyed the talk about daughters, which was really about spouses, and the self.  Very smart.  DB was pretty good in that scene.  To truly love, one must completely let go.  It's the scariest thing I know.  

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So that's what Bortus looks like without makeup on! The Chief of the Boat was played by Peter Macon, who plays Bortus on The Orville. I'll bet he was glad to get out of that headgear!

I'm no expert on submarines beyond what I've read in Tom Clancy books but why did they forget that the torpedo tube has two doors on it? Sonny still had some air in the tank so why not have him swim out the other end? I suppose there are any number of reasons why this wouldn't have worked (too deep, water topside was too rough, etc) but they didn't even think of it.

The sub captain said he was part of the nuclear triad and this bugs me the most when it comes to Hollywood submarines. A "nuclear" sub has a nuclear reactor in it. A "nuclear missile" sub has nuclear missiles. If this boat was indeed an SSBN there is no way it would be supporting commando missions on the coast of North Korea. SSBNs are referred to as the "chicken of the sea" and their mission is to "hide with pride". It does not need to be off the NK coast to do what it may ultimately be called upon to do. If it is based out of California it can fire its missiles from beside the dock and still wreck everything from the 38th parallel to the Yalu river. The Navy would use an attack sub like a Los Angeles-class or a Seawolf for delivering SEAL teams.

Another submarine nitpick and this one is straight out of Hunt for Red October (the book) when Jonesy asks "do the Russkies have sub races scheduled for today?" The NK sub turns to chase the other boat and the captain of the US sub orders flank speed. Flank speed is the fastest speed a submarine is capable of and getting to that speed involves digging big, chewy, noisy holes in the water which can be detected from very far away (this is a crucial scene in the book when all the Russian boats step on it simultaneously). Granted NK sonar is not reputed for being the best but if you're trying to hide you don't sneak away by stomping on the gas! They could have addressed this with a line about how the NK sub would be able to detect them once they started making all this noise and someone else could have pointed out sure but they won't be able to catch up to us.

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3 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I'm no expert on submarines beyond what I've read in Tom Clancy books but why did they forget that the torpedo tube has two doors on it? Sonny still had some air in the tank so why not have him swim out the other end? I suppose there are any number of reasons why this wouldn't have worked (too deep, water topside was too rough, etc) but they didn't even think of it.

They covered it in one throw away comment that whatever locked the inner door also locked the outer door so the tube was sealed at both ends.  IDK if it was accurate or not as far as how subs and torpedo tubes work but that was the excuse the show used.

For the claustrophobic among us (raises hand) this was extremely difficult to watch, AJ Buckley really sold it.  Character wise though someone needs to reign in Jason and soon.  Whether it's his normal personality or his "I won't lose another person" angst or both the whole bull in a china shop just storm ahead and rip things apart to get what you want plan of action is not appropriate and, in this case, is border line/over the line insubordination or mutiny.  The choice sucked but the sub captain was right, sometimes you have to take emotion completely out of the decision if it's the very hard choice of losing one man or losing an entire sub crew.  

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5 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

The choice sucked but the sub captain was right, sometimes you have to take emotion completely out of the decision if it's the very hard choice of losing one man or losing an entire sub crew. 

Intellectually, you might be right, but I had no problem with Jason's behavior.  The sub captain had a duty to his crew (which he kept bringing up by mentioning the number of people on board.)  He had a duty to his crew, and while I can appreciate the whole numbers argument, the skipper was advocating for the safety of his people.  To expect Jason to not do the same for his man simply because Jason commands fewer men is asinine.  Jason had rank within his team.  It was his job to advocate for his man, and yes, he had to be louder.  He had to do that because there were fewer of his people. 

I found the sub captain to be smug,

ETA: More thoughts: I'm not military, so I'm trying to appreciate something outside my experience. That said, to try and say that military personnel are supposed to have zero emotions is ridiculous.  We do not send robots into combat.  We send people who have emotions.  While the sub captain may consider Sonny to be expendable, to expect Jason to just be good with losing a man is crap.  The skipper was a soulless jerk who liked to posture with threatening to throw Jason in confinement.  I liked the XO much better,  He struck a better balance between the need for authority and some level of just basic human compassion.

A.J. rocked the house with his performance.  I shed a few tears because I thought the show might actually kill Sonny.  With the losses of Nate, Alana, and Adam, the series has been known to make that decision with characters

Edited by Ohmo
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1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

 The skipper was a soulless jerk who liked to posture with threatening to throw Jason in confinement.  I liked the XO much better,  He struck a better balance between the need for authority and some level of just basic human compassion.

A.J. rocked the house with his performance.  I shed a few tears because I thought the show might actually kill Sonny.  With the losses of Nate, Alana, and Adam, the series has been known to make that decision with characters

That was sort of where I was going with my post but I might have said it badly.  The skipper was too tough on one end, Jason was too tough on the far other end.  Definitely agree the XO was pretty close to center.  My bigger issue with Jason's attitude is the skipper was a one time thing so he can be a jerk and we can forget about him.  But it's Jason we have to watch week after week and his bulldozing forward no matter what he's told or what Intel he's given does get to be a bit much, that's what I wish they'd tone down.

I wa so worried about Sonny and couldn't take the suspense that at one point I snuck onto IMDB just make sure AJ was on the cast list for future episodes

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I think both things are true.

Someone does need to rein in Jason, because while his heart is in the right place, and I can understand why he did what he did, he has to find a better way of dealing with people.

His immediate default is to barge in after being given explicit repeated orders not to and make demands in a way that's completely disrespectful and off-putting. A way that makes people not want to acquiesce to his demands, especially if he seems like he's trying to usurp their power.

Yes, he has emotions and needed to advocate for Sonny. That goes without question. But he winds up not getting what he wants, because he doesn't get that that he has to finesse his way through it, according to the person he's trying to get whatever he wants from.

For instance, the XO was able to defuse the situation and get people to do what he wanted, because he knew how to talk to people. He was calm but forceful. That's what a real leader looks like. 

And P.S. I have claustrophobia and a fear of drowning, so I had to fast-forward some of that.

Edited by SweetTooth
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11 hours ago, dwmarch said:

So that's what Bortus looks like without makeup on! The Chief of the Boat was played by Peter Macon, who plays Bortus on The Orville. I'll bet he was glad to get out of that headgear!

I'm no expert on submarines beyond what I've read in Tom Clancy books but why did they forget that the torpedo tube has two doors on it? Sonny still had some air in the tank so why not have him swim out the other end? I suppose there are any number of reasons why this wouldn't have worked (too deep, water topside was too rough, etc) but they didn't even think of it.

//

The NK sub turns to chase the other boat and the captain of the US sub orders flank speed. Flank speed is the fastest speed a submarine is capable of and getting to that speed involves digging big, chewy, noisy holes in the water which can be detected from very far away (this is a crucial scene in the book when all the Russian boats step on it simultaneously). Granted NK sonar is not reputed for being the best but if you're trying to hide you don't sneak away by stomping on the gas! They could have addressed this with a line about how the NK sub would be able to detect them once they started making all this noise and someone else could have pointed out sure but they won't be able to catch up to us.

BORTUS! Thank you! I couldn't place his voice or his manner, but I knew I knew him! I thought he was awesome! He was like a cross between Teal'c and Worf in his Spartan warrior persona, while you could still tell he was a compassionate human being underneath, dedicated to helping Jason within the parameters of his duty, which he would never disregard.

As for the NK sub, my (Marine Corps adjacent but Navy relatively unfamiliar) take was that once Sonny's situation became life-threatening, their priorities were (1) preservation of the billion dollar sub; and (2) "preservation of forces" -- ie save Sonny.  They had to disregard NK realizing they were in their waters, and settle for just getting away.  Once the NK sub was not on top of them or within conventional sub weapon range, they gave the order to GTFO at top speed because they couldn't be caught, and that was how they were going to save Sonny.

And yes, there was a brief mention of the tube being stuck locked at both ends, but it was a one-liner.

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Intellectually, you might be right, but I had no problem with Jason's behavior.  The sub captain had a duty to his crew (which he kept bringing up by mentioning the number of people on board.)  He had a duty to his crew, and while I can appreciate the whole numbers argument, the skipper was advocating for the safety of his people.  To expect Jason to not do the same for his man simply because Jason commands fewer men is asinine.  Jason had rank within his team.  It was his job to advocate for his man, and yes, he had to be louder.  He had to do that because there were fewer of his people. 

I found the sub captain to be smug,

ETA: More thoughts: I'm not military, so I'm trying to appreciate something outside my experience. That said, to try and say that military personnel are supposed to have zero emotions is ridiculous.  We do not send robots into combat.  We send people who have emotions.  While the sub captain may consider Sonny to be expendable, to expect Jason to just be good with losing a man is crap.  The skipper was a soulless jerk who liked to posture with threatening to throw Jason in confinement.  I liked the XO much better,  He struck a better balance between the need for authority and some level of just basic human compassion.

A.J. rocked the house with his performance.  I shed a few tears because I thought the show might actually kill Sonny.  With the losses of Nate, Alana, and Adam, the series has been known to make that decision with characters

My problem with the commander of the sub was that he treated Jason as if Jason has not, many times, sent his men into situations where he knew they would most likely not survive. Between the two of them, I would put good money on the fact that Jason has lost more men under his command than the sub commander has, and him lecturing Jason on the virtues a man needs to be the kind of leader who can send his people into near certain-death situations was overwhelmingly condescending. Jason would have (outside the military structure) been perfectly justified clapping back that he has far more real experience in the world of combat and leading and losing men under his command, while the sub commander's experience is most likely 100% theoretical (we don't lose a lot of subs or sailors on subs, outside of totally accidental deaths).  That dude had NO place pontificating at Jason about how superior his intellect and decision-making capabilities were -- Jason makes countless life or death decisions on his missions when they go PERFECTLY. That cake-eater didn't know what the f*ck he was talking about and his condescension  would have earned him a neck-punch in any other context.

The sub commander was a PERFECT example of why our military is ultimately under civilian control. The chain of command works well until it doesn't, and when it doesn't, people able to think outside the bounds of chain of command, follow orders, do it by the book, don't consider anything not covered in training are essential. That's why the Sec'y of Defense must be a civilian (or out of the military for a certain length of time before appointment) and why the DOD is staffed with civilians.

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7 minutes ago, xtwheeler said:

My problem with the commander of the sub was that he treated Jason as if Jason has not, many times, sent his men into situations where he knew they would most likely not survive. Between the two of them, I would put good money on the fact that Jason has lost more men under his command than the sub commander has, and him lecturing Jason on the virtues a man needs to be the kind of leader who can send his people into near certain-death situations was overwhelmingly condescending. Jason would have (outside the military structure) been perfectly justified clapping back that he has far more real experience in the world of combat and leading and losing men under his command, while the sub commander's experience is most likely 100% theoretical (we don't lose a lot of subs or sailors on subs, outside of totally accidental deaths).  That dude had NO place pontificating at Jason about how superior his intellect and decision-making capabilities were -- Jason makes countless life or death decisions on his missions when they go PERFECTLY. That cake-eater didn't know what the f*ck he was talking about and his condescension  would have earned him a neck-punch in any other context.

1000% THIS!

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

My bigger issue with Jason's attitude is the skipper was a one time thing so he can be a jerk and we can forget about him.  

Over the course of the recent episodes, I can see your point, but in this one specific instance I was totally Team Jason.  I was particularly ticked at Blackburn.  He wasn't forceful enough.  I'm not talking yelling and screaming, but if Blackburn insisted on standing Jason down, then it was HIS job to go to bat for Sonny.  Sonny is Blackburn's guy, and he seemed way more interested on getting permission from the skipper to sneeze.  Yeah, the skipper was in command of the sub, but all of Blackburn's "we're guests" crap.  Ugh!  You represent the same country.  The skipper doesn't own the freakin' sub!  Blackburn wasn't getting it done, so Jason was championing for his guy.

I know the writers wrote the episode this way because David's the lead, and they likely wanted Jason to be one to "work the problem," but it also came across as the skipper being less than interested in working the problem.  You have to wait the NK sub out?  Fine, but then think of something else.  The skipper totally came across as "My people are all OK.   You guys are completely SOL." That and "my sub (and a few other things) are bigger than yours"  Jason was not having it, and Blackburn was a fat-ass wuss.  Good for Jason!

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I agree that I was Team Jason, and that guy was a jerk and condescending. My point is that Jason, as a leader, needed to assess the situation, realize the kind of person he was dealing with, and figure out the best way to handle the guy in order to get what he wanted in the quickest possible time.

By using his "Barge in and demand things" method, he only prolongs the process. If he'd used the XO's technique, he might have gotten what he wanted faster.

So while Jason's intentions were noble and right, his abilities as a leader need to extend to assessing each person individually in order to achieve his goal.

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That was TOUGH to watch. It hit way too close to home having lost several firefighters over the years due to them being trapped inside a burning building and running out of oxygen. My FF husband told me about the radio calls from the FF inside and how they knew they were running out of air and essentially saying their goodbyes, etc.  I’ve been a minor fan of AJ for years and I thought they were actually going to kill him off. It was so stressful I had to come here and read the comments to know what happened before the end.  I missed WHY sunny was in the tube. 

 

I was was on my iPad when the episode started, so when Peter Macon talked the first time I got confused and thought I had turned on Orville. Every time he talked after that I just kept thinking of that show. 

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20 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Intellectually, you might be right, but I had no problem with Jason's behavior.  The sub captain had a duty to his crew (which he kept bringing up by mentioning the number of people on board.)  He had a duty to his crew, and while I can appreciate the whole numbers argument, the skipper was advocating for the safety of his people.  To expect Jason to not do the same for his man simply because Jason commands fewer men is asinine.  Jason had rank within his team.  It was his job to advocate for his man, and yes, he had to be louder.  He had to do that because there were fewer of his people. 

I found the sub captain to be smug,

ETA: More thoughts: I'm not military, so I'm trying to appreciate something outside my experience. That said, to try and say that military personnel are supposed to have zero emotions is ridiculous.  We do not send robots into combat.  We send people who have emotions.  While the sub captain may consider Sonny to be expendable, to expect Jason to just be good with losing a man is crap.  The skipper was a soulless jerk who liked to posture with threatening to throw Jason in confinement.  I liked the XO much better,  He struck a better balance between the need for authority and some level of just basic human compassion.

A.J. rocked the house with his performance.  I shed a few tears because I thought the show might actually kill Sonny.  With the losses of Nate, Alana, and Adam, the series has been known to make that decision with characters

I have all kinds of problems with Jason's behavior. With the Mexican Colonel it was like fuck him, they asked for our help but now he stands in a gunfighter pose trying to get a US Navy Captain to bend to his will all while publicly disobeying the orders of his own commanding officer and ultimately planning a mutiny on the boat.  Time for the Master Chief to retire.

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On 1/24/2019 at 1:11 AM, dwmarch said:

So that's what Bortus looks like without makeup on! The Chief of the Boat was played by Peter Macon, who plays Bortus on The Orville. I'll bet he was glad to get out of that headgear!

I'm no expert on submarines beyond what I've read in Tom Clancy books but why did they forget that the torpedo tube has two doors on it? Sonny still had some air in the tank so why not have him swim out the other end? I suppose there are any number of reasons why this wouldn't have worked (too deep, water topside was too rough, etc) but they didn't even think of it.

The sub captain said he was part of the nuclear triad and this bugs me the most when it comes to Hollywood submarines. A "nuclear" sub has a nuclear reactor in it. A "nuclear missile" sub has nuclear missiles. If this boat was indeed an SSBN there is no way it would be supporting commando missions on the coast of North Korea. SSBNs are referred to as the "chicken of the sea" and their mission is to "hide with pride". It does not need to be off the NK coast to do what it may ultimately be called upon to do. If it is based out of California it can fire its missiles from beside the dock and still wreck everything from the 38th parallel to the Yalu river. The Navy would use an attack sub like a Los Angeles-class or a Seawolf for delivering SEAL teams.

Another submarine nitpick and this one is straight out of Hunt for Red October (the book) when Jonesy asks "do the Russkies have sub races scheduled for today?" The NK sub turns to chase the other boat and the captain of the US sub orders flank speed. Flank speed is the fastest speed a submarine is capable of and getting to that speed involves digging big, chewy, noisy holes in the water which can be detected from very far away (this is a crucial scene in the book when all the Russian boats step on it simultaneously). Granted NK sonar is not reputed for being the best but if you're trying to hide you don't sneak away by stomping on the gas! They could have addressed this with a line about how the NK sub would be able to detect them once they started making all this noise and someone else could have pointed out sure but they won't be able to catch up to us.

It seems that the risk taken was once the North Korean Captain took the decoy bait our sub gave up its position but it was a run for open water with the hopes that the North Korean  would not be willing to fire once the map line was crossed.

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3 hours ago, Raja said:

Time for the Master Chief to retire.

Honestly, though, we're talking TV military,  and David is the star, so maybe that's why Jason's behavior doesn't bother me as much.  I read somewhere that David is way older than any active operator would ever be.  Same principle as Gibbs still being an active agent on NCIS.  Some things are just an automatic handwave for the sake of TV.  The retirement of Jason Hayes, whether it should happen or not, just isn't going to.

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I think if this were the actual Navy that Jason Hayes would be facing court martial.  He is enlisted - trying to argue with a nuclear sub  commander. 

Edited by mythoughtis
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10 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Honestly, though, we're talking TV military,  and David is the star, so maybe that's why Jason's behavior doesn't bother me as much.  I read somewhere that David is way older than any active operator would ever be.  Same principle as Gibbs still being an active agent on NCIS.  Some things are just an automatic handwave for the sake of TV.  The retirement of Jason Hayes, whether it should happen or not, just isn't going to.

It is about how much realism this type of show needs to survive.  Stray to far and you lose your target nerd audience. It is part of what happened on The Brave with their Captain "Top". Jason ignoring the Mexican Colonel was one thing. Maintaining an aggressive stance towards a ship Captain and directly disobeying his commanding officer in public really crossed the line reality line. Steven Segal doesn't even go that far when he plays soldiers, both in his star days and now in his direct to home video days.

That NCIS survived its initial post JAG years might have more to do with  the comic tone from JAG and then the pilot episode riffing off of the Air Force One movie.

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I obviously have never been involved with any special operations unit, but I find that character portrayal in this show is getting more and more disturbing, particularly on SOCM Hayes' side. Here they are, aboard a U.S. Navy ship and they openly defy the lawful order of the Commanding Officer of such unit? Special Warfare or not, surely they are still bound by the UCMJ and military hierarchy? I am also disappointed with LCDR Blackburn for his inability to command his sailors better and to liaise with the CO, a fellow officer.

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10 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

I obviously have never been involved with any special operations unit, but I find that character portrayal in this show is getting more and more disturbing, particularly on SOCM Hayes' side. Here they are, aboard a U.S. Navy ship and they openly defy the lawful order of the Commanding Officer of such unit? Special Warfare or not, surely they are still bound by the UCMJ and military hierarchy? I am also disappointed with LCDR Blackburn for his inability to command his sailors better and to liaise with the CO, a fellow officer.

Add to that the fact that Jason openly defied his own command, LCDR Blackburn, multiple times, even after Blackburn  gave him an explicit order in very official tones. 

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On 1/24/2019 at 4:20 PM, Ohmo said:

1000% THIS!

Over the course of the recent episodes, I can see your point, but in this one specific instance I was totally Team Jason.  I was particularly ticked at Blackburn.  He wasn't forceful enough.  I'm not talking yelling and screaming, but if Blackburn insisted on standing Jason down, then it was HIS job to go to bat for Sonny.  Sonny is Blackburn's guy, and he seemed way more interested on getting permission from the skipper to sneeze.  Yeah, the skipper was in command of the sub, but all of Blackburn's "we're guests" crap.  Ugh!  You represent the same country.  The skipper doesn't own the freakin' sub!  Blackburn wasn't getting it done, so Jason was championing for his guy.

LCDR Blackburn is a Commissioned Officer, a direct command over SOCM Hayes. When Blackburn gives a lawful order, Hayes, and the rest of Bravo Team, have the obligation to comply. No way around it, even if it costs the life of their team mate. 

While the Commanding Officer of the Washington does not personally own the boat, he has command. Meaning that for all practical purposes she is his. His words are the laws aboard the boat. It is well within his authority to detain all members of Bravo Team and it is indeed well within authority to let SO Quinn perish to maintain the mission of his unit (the boat) and to ensure the safety of her crew.

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1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

LCDR Blackburn is a Commissioned Officer, a direct command over SOCM Hayes. When Blackburn gives a lawful order, Hayes, and the rest of Bravo Team, have the obligation to comply. No way around it, even if it costs the life of their team mate. 

While the Commanding Officer of the Washington does not personally own the boat, he has command. Meaning that for all practical purposes she is his. His words are the laws aboard the boat. It is well within his authority to detain all members of Bravo Team and it is indeed well within authority to let SO Quinn perish to maintain the mission of his unit (the boat) and to ensure the safety of her crew.

I'm not debating about whether they have the authority or not.  Both the skipper and Blackburn have the authority to be crappy at their jobs...and they both demonstrated that in spades.  If I were on that sub, I would be scared to serve under that skipper.  Chain of command or no, at the end of the day, you are leading people.  At no time did that skipper even acknowledge Sonny by rank.  Whenever he talked about people, he used the most generic of terms...man, soul...the most dispassionate terms that can be.  That kind of person is dangerous, whether he is allowed to give an order or not.

I thought the XO was fantastic, even as he warned the guys about mutiny.  There was no doubt that he was exerting authority over them and reminding them of the chain of command, but he did so while also acknowledging that there would be a human cost to what the guys were thinking.  The skipper was too enthralled with the fact that he was in command.

As for Blackburn, yes, he is fully allowed to stand Jason down.   I still think he was a wuss.  He showed zero initiative once the skipper shut him down.  He could have been the one to propose what Jason came up with.  I would have had more respect him then.  Blackburn stood around once the skipper shut him down.  The mutiny idea/barring the door was a tremendously awful idea, but at least it was an idea.  Blackburn was way too non-paticipatory.  Jason, Clay, and Ray were all generating ideas, and if Blackburn insisted on standing Jason down, he did have the authority to do so.  He also had the responsibility to be way more engaged than he was if he didn't like Jason's brand of engagement.

Like Sonny said about serving with Jason, we got a glimpse of why.  Jason ultimately had Sonny's six, as a person.  I get that the chain of command exists for a reason, and sure, Jason does have to work on his impulse control, but the moment you become as dispassionate and unattached as the skipper, thinking solely of command as doling out orders, you're just as dangerous as people say that Jason is when he's hot-headed.

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In the cold calculus of war in the territory of an enemy who will shoot and has killed those in the DMZ before you don't jeopardize a submarine and more lives than all the SEALs lost in combat since 9/11 combined. There is no problem to work for the fear have a torpedo heading towards your disabled boat because of a noisy rescue attempt. . I would fear for the boss you thinks he has plot armor or the good man armor and jeopardized everything else.

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I believe that was the COB-Chief of the Boat-and not the XO but I’ve deleted it and am too lazy to go back and check. He was also a Master Chief. In my opinion, Jason’s (and Jason’s boss) biggest mistake was talking to the Skipper in front of his crew, using the tone and words he used. Doing it in private may have been a better approach as most CO’s would at least hear out a master chief. Still his command and his ultimate responsibility though. 

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42 minutes ago, Sharon said:

I believe that was the COB-Chief of the Boat-and not the XO but I’ve deleted it and am too lazy to go back and check. He was also a Master Chief. In my opinion, Jason’s (and Jason’s boss) biggest mistake was talking to the Skipper in front of his crew, using the tone and words he used. Doing it in private may have been a better approach as most CO’s would at least hear out a master chief. Still his command and his ultimate responsibility though. 

It was more than the speaking tone, in front of the rest of the crew the physical posture that Jason took on the bridge is a crime in itself Article 89 of the UCMJ.

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4 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I'm not debating about whether they have the authority or not.  Both the skipper and Blackburn have the authority to be crappy at their jobs...and they both demonstrated that in spades.  If I were on that sub, I would be scared to serve under that skipper.  Chain of command or no, at the end of the day, you are leading people.  At no time did that skipper even acknowledge Sonny by rank.  Whenever he talked about people, he used the most generic of terms...man, soul...the most dispassionate terms that can be.  That kind of person is dangerous, whether he is allowed to give an order or not.

I thought the XO was fantastic, even as he warned the guys about mutiny.  There was no doubt that he was exerting authority over them and reminding them of the chain of command, but he did so while also acknowledging that there would be a human cost to what the guys were thinking.  The skipper was too enthralled with the fact that he was in command.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to be patronizing nor condescending or being personal. I am merely stating the fact.

It is obvious that you have no exposure to military discipline and that is fine. However, what happens in this situation is military men openly defying legal orders of superior officers. That by itself is a great violation of military discipline. FWIW the CO of the Washington, does not do crappy job. He does what his commission demands him to do, making difficult decision and having his subordinates follow through with his order. As for being dispassionate, CAPT Edwards does exactly the right thing, removing emotion from the equation.

Just a point of clarification. CMDCM (I think) Wilke is not the XO. He is the COB and he is at the same pay grade as SOCM Hayes. He has no chain of command over Bravo Team.

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The one earned moment was Sonny declaring to Jason that being under his command was the greatest honor of his life.  Just wonderful.  THAT, is the warrior code.  I fully bought it and was greatly moved.  For the possibility of scenes like this, I hope the show continues.

The worst thing the Captain did, and it is not even a close call for me, was to explain himself to Jason in front of his gawking crew, who were under immediate direct threat of detection by a lethal NORK sub.  Are you freaking kidding me?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  That crew was in utter disbelief of what their lying eyes and ears were telling them. 

In no other military setting is unquestioned rank more required.  The crew was well aware that the Captain ordered the tube disabled, despite his commitment to the overall mission.  They would follow that guy ANYWHERE.  That Captain had their backs as much as he could.  A submariner is a special animal, as is a SEAL.  Their training is unique in that they are told they are entirely expendable and they will live in super tight circumstances for weeks on end.  They are drilled over and over that orders are to be carried out with alacrity.  No open questioning of crucial command decisions can happen.  Ever.

Blackburn has become a joke.  He has got to go.  If I am that Captain, I am preferring charges against him for failure in command.   Jason is in irons and his career is over if I have anything to do with it.

The tick tock of the "last 5 minutes" was woefully off.  At least Sonny came out a dead man.  That was the inevitable outcome given the timeline depicted.  His revival was not obvious to me (good on TPTB) and it was reasonable when it occurred.

Davis leaving her post was an excellent example as to why fraternization is deadly in the military.  She was incapable of doing her job due to romantic entanglement.  Not a small thing.  She may have the makings of an officer, I truly do not know.  I do know she must separate from that Bravo team immediately.  ETA:  I was super pleased that Sonny never asked for any sentiments to be passed on to her.  Here again, NOT expressing a thought was the correct and courageous act in the context of the team.  I was imagining the toll it was taking on him to refrain.  That was about the last thing in the world he needed at that point.  

Edited by Lonesome Rhodes
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22 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

ETA:  I was super pleased that Sonny never asked for any sentiments to be passed on to her.  Here again, NOT expressing a thought was the correct and courageous act in the context of the team.  I was imagining the toll it was taking on him to refrain.  That was about the last thing in the world he needed at that point.  

He actually did ask for the guys to give Davis a message.  Not a romantic one, but he did ask them to tell Lisa that he was sorry. Lisa is Davis.

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42 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

He actually did ask for the guys to give Davis a message.  Not a romantic one, but he did ask them to tell Lisa that he was sorry. Lisa is Davis.

Thank you for the correction.  Bleccch.  I am glad I was ignorant of her first name.  

Any bets from anyone if, as the show goes on, this never happened?  

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4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Has anyone seen any info as to when new eps will air again?  I believe there are at least two more to come.

The show is back March 13th and moves to 10pm:

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