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Door County Cherry

S01.E07: Chivalry

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Hey guys! Just asking y’all to be mindful that some of us are working hard not to be spoiled, so please be careful in your posts. I’d never heard anything about this story, so have no idea how it ends. Based on some of your discussion that goes beyond the show, one huge question is now answered, which is a bummer. 

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4 hours ago, 918lux said:

  I did find myself thinking, "man, if this guy put the amount of energy he puts in to his con in to a real profession, he'd be super successful." 

 

I thought the same thing. He was even wheeling & dealing in prison. 

He sure had his speech patterns down to a science when he was talking to the ladies. By speech patterns I mean his choice of words (which he was shown practicing to get Debra to forgive him & go on a second date), his mannerisms, his choice of words, saying what he knows the ladies want to hear, etc.  He really came across as confidant & well spoken when he needed to be.

Boy, him & the drug doc really had a distribution thing going on with some higher priced drugs. "We can get 3K a pop for these." We now know where the $10,000 he asked Debra to originally deposit in bank came from.  (Just my assumption. We all knew his $$ came from drugs. This just showed us how it was done.

I loved when the cop (?) gave John a hard time when he picked up the RV at the impound lot. 

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9 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Debra, he took your car and burned it because he could and because he's evil. Stop trying to figure out evil. It's not possible unless you're also evil, and they know you'll get so distracted you'll drop your guard.

This... along with the faulty logic a lot of abusers have...’. if I destroy something important to her, she’ll come back to me’.  Or the ‘ if I can’t have ‘x’, then you can’t have it either’ theory.    I can’t believe the cops bought his story about the car.  The man has an established police record... did they even run his name thru their databases? 

Provided, of course, the car and the police part weren’t a dramatization for TV. Guess I’ll have to google. 

Eta - true according to google. 

Edited by mythoughtis
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Did he take Viagra when he went to the bathroom during their first date?

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6 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

Did he take Viagra when he went to the bathroom during their first date?

He appeared to - but how would they know that? 

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The first half of this episode had some of the funniest moments of the whole miniseries.

 

I almost spit out my water when John was lying his ass off about being an anasthesiologist and said, "I don't want to bore you with the details," and then the woman said, "You're not boring me." He was like,"Crap, more on the spot lies I have to come up with!"

 

Also when he threatened to call his hookup's workplace and ask them if they knew who the hell *she* was. Like, assuming everyone lies like he does. That was hilarious. 

And, "Maybe I like things that suck."

 

He's so conniving yet at the same time so dumb, obvious, cheesy, unpolished, immature and bush league , he reminds me of an evil version of Corey Feldman.

 

I'm very sorry this is almost over, it's been highly entertaining. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to watch Eric Bana in movies the same way again, lol.  He certainly seems to have had a ball playing this role!

23 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I liked the 'recap' because it showed John's motivations and his mindset through this whole thing.

 

Yes, I agree, it was interesting to see things unfold from John's perspective.

22 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I couldn't believe the cops were buying John's line of bullshit about setting fire to the car.  Having possession of the key/fob does not give you ownership of the car.  If I steal your car key and use it to drive away your car, is it my car now?  No. If the title is in Debra's name (which I assume it is, she had it before she met him), it's Debra's car, and he set fire to it, which is a criminal act.  

Yeah, but he was at the same time saying he had permission to drive it, and that he had to work his schedule around the days when Debra would let him have the car. He was basically just telling them he had legitimate access to the car. 

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2 hours ago, Barb23 said:

I loved when the cop (?) gave John a hard time when he picked up the RV at the impound lot. 

Me too! That was awesome!

7 hours ago, kicksave said:

I find it very hard to believe that someone as stupid and clueless as Debra was able to have a successful business and managed her business and investments as well as she did. 

I think she was more desperate and lonely than stupid, which made her willfully blind. Remember, the first night when John flopped on her bed before they'd even gone out, she told him to leave, so she did see that as weird and overly assuming and arrogant right off the bat. Maybe she was also d-whipped.. 

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14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One more reason to hate John - he's one of those annoying people who has his phone set with the audible clicks while he's texting.

I love this.  HA!

 

John takes it to the next level by sleeping with another male when (I am assuming) he is not even bi-sexual.  I liked this episode and episodes like these. Not that we know that all of this actually happened or how it went down because we would need him to verify that. 

Deb is so stupid by not getting why he would burn the car.  Has she never come across someone who just wanted to fuck with her?  Haven't we all in one form or another?  

Edited by IDreamofJoaquin
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I didn't listen to the podcast, but my spidey sense is telling me that this John character is up to no good (no good, I tells you!), and it isn't going to end well for him.

Edited by QQQQ
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Great episode, even if much of it was conjecture. But Jean Smart and even (to a lesser extent) Connie B both had a Minnesota/North Dakota accent going strong and it was super, super distracting. We've heard it from Jean in earlier eps and only if Arlane is from up there does that make any sense.

Edited by Jillybean
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9 hours ago, newyawk said:

The first half of this episode had some of the funniest moments of the whole miniseries.

I can't find any humor in John. All I can think about is what would be the most slow and painful way for him to die.

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When I watched the episode, I thought it would have been perfect for him to be listening to R. Kelly while he was on his computer scamming those women.  (if you watched the R. Kelly documentary last weekend, you know what I mean).

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I get a distinct impression that quite a few viewers are watching this as a scripted drama. This is real life. Dirty John is not a created character he's a real-life con artist/narcissist/sociopath/psychopath.

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13 hours ago, suzyq8017 said:

Hey guys! Just asking y’all to be mindful that some of us are working hard not to be spoiled, so please be careful in your posts. I’d never heard anything about this story, so have no idea how it ends. Based on some of your discussion that goes beyond the show, one huge question is now answered, which is a bummer. 

A thousand times yes and please. Until I began watching this I had no idea it is a true story and as SuzyQ said, I’ve been trying very hard not to find out what happened. I began reading a post and realized it was leading to what would have been a huge spoiler. Please remember, true story or not doesn’t mean that everyone knows the details.

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I saw the real Debra on a talk show the other night and her voice was normal. I don't know where Connie Britton dug up this breathy cutesy voice but it makes me not like her as an actor. 

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She was the bartender on Watch What Happens Live last night on Bravo. 

Something pretty random I noticed in this episode was that John said "different to" rather than "different from." I don't know anything about the actor but it made me wonder if he's British.

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1 hour ago, bichonblitz said:

I saw the real Debra on a talk show the other night and her voice was normal. I don't know where Connie Britton dug up this breathy cutesy voice but it makes me not like her as an actor. 

She sounds pretty identical to how Debra talked on the podcast.  That's the only time I've ever heard her speak, though.

 

5 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

She was the bartender on Watch What Happens Live last night on Bravo. 

Something pretty random I noticed in this episode was that John said "different to" rather than "different from." I don't know anything about the actor but it made me wonder if he's British.

Eric Bana is Australian.

Edited by TexasGal
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2 hours ago, pieinmyeye said:

A thousand times yes and please. Until I began watching this I had no idea it is a true story and as SuzyQ said, I’ve been trying very hard not to find out what happened. I began reading a post and realized it was leading to what would have been a huge spoiler. Please remember, true story or not doesn’t mean that everyone knows the details.

Me too, except.....I was on another forum and everyone was spoiler warning, then BOOM some asswipe spoiled without notice.  I was furious.

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13 hours ago, newyawk said:

Me too! That was awesome!

I think she was more desperate and lonely than stupid, which made her willfully blind. Remember, the first night when John flopped on her bed before they'd even gone out, she told him to leave, so she did see that as weird and overly assuming and arrogant right off the bat. Maybe she was also d-whipped.. 

Lonely? Check. Desperate? Check. But how a successful and wealthy woman could go forward with a relationship with a stranger and not even Google his name or employ private investigator to research his background is puzzling. Was she that ignorant of the ways of internet dating and how many women get ripped off and sometimes killed by online "dates"? Worse, when her daughter did her due diligence and and hired a private investigator to look into his background, Debra wasn't convinced and waved her daughter off. I would say that Debra is a throw back to a 1950's type of woman internally...but very much a modern woman of the 21st century...owns her own business, successful, financially independent but   that 1950's woman lives inside of her...doesn't feel complete without a man in her life and defers decisions to the man once she has one. 

19 hours ago, MerBearStare said:

Eric Bana must be having so much fun with this role. I did laugh a couple times during this episode at just how awful John is. "The stress is making my MS act up." What a jagoff.

I didn't realize how much I missed Cyrus Bean until this episode.

"Cyrus Bean" also was on "My So Called Life" with Claire Danes back in the late 90's. He played a gay teacher at the high school that was the focal point of the show. Great show and introduced us to so many great actors like Claire Danes, Jared Leto, "Cyrus Bean" and so many others.

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16 minutes ago, kicksave said:

not even Google his name or employ private investigator to research his background is puzzling. Was she that ignorant of the ways of internet dating and how many women get ripped off and sometimes killed by online "dates"? Worse, when her daughter did her due diligence and and hired a private investigator to look into his background, Debra wasn't convinced and waved her daughter off

I think she should have re-hired that private investigator once she decided to leave him so that she would have some idea of where he was and what he was doing.  She could have disproven the entire MS theory, or proven he set the car fire if someone had kept tabs on him.   

It’s not as if she didn’t have the money to do so.  

Edited by mythoughtis
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The breathy little girl voice could have been a tactic to placate John. If Debra was that smart. If I knew I was dealing with a psycho, no matter how dumb and basic he was, I'd try every tactic I had in my arsenal to keep him placated.

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It seems like John might have gotten away with this for a long time if he just could have been nice to Debra's family. He's faking it anyway -- why not spread around the attention and affection and "good guy" vibes he gave her? But he couldn't even pull that much off. He's a stupid con man.

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2 hours ago, 2727 said:

It seems like John might have gotten away with this for a long time if he just could have been nice to Debra's family. He's faking it anyway -- why not spread around the attention and affection and "good guy" vibes he gave her? But he couldn't even pull that much off. He's a stupid con man.

Because he wanted to isolate her and also wanted her to cut them off financially. So to him they were coming between him and her money.

I am not a violent person but I don’t know how people in her life didn’t slap her or violently shake her for her stupidy.

Edited by biakbiak
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2 hours ago, 2727 said:

It seems like John might have gotten away with this for a long time if he just could have been nice to Debra's family. He's faking it anyway -- why not spread around the attention and affection and "good guy" vibes he gave her? But he couldn't even pull that much off. He's a stupid con man.

I think about this too--like, just reap the rewards of being with rich-ass Debra without going through all this risky and tedious plotting and skulking and faking and planning! It's just sometimes hard to get your head around the fact that, more than money (and beach houses and cars...), what he wants/needs to do is just dominate and outsmart other people. It's how he's wired.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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I wanted to see the "picture" of Debra that John sent to all of her clients.  The tentative way in which her assistant was talking about it made it sound like a nude photo or sex tape.  John seems the type who'd put hidden cameras in the shower as well as secretly tape Debra and him having sex. 

Edited by CharlizeCat
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3 minutes ago, CharlizeCat said:

I wanted to see the "picture" of Debra that John sent to all of her clients.  The tentative way in which her assistant was talking about it made it sound like a nude photo or sex tape.  John seems the type who'd put hidden cameras in the shower as well as secretly tape Debra and him having sex. 

Spoiler

Google says the nude photos were sent to her family. I’ve not actually seen anything that says her clients got them- although someone who listened to the podcast may know for sure 

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7 hours ago, kicksave said:

Jean Smart played the matriarch of a crime family in Minnesota on the TV series "Fargo"...she had a killer Minnesota accent in that show I guess she liked it so much she kept it.

I love Jean Smart and I loved her in Fargo.  But I don't like her on DJ.  Hate the cheesy wig (alot!) and I hate the sweet little grandma persona.  I get that the real person is like this, but I don't buy her in this role.   At all.

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4 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I think about this too--like, just reap the rewards of being with rich-ass Debra without going through all this risky and tedious plotting and skulking and faking and planning! It's just sometimes hard to get your head around the fact that, more than money (and beach houses and cars...), what he wants/needs to do is just dominate and outsmart other people. It's how he's wired.

I agree with you. Most con artists just want to get money and maybe some prestige (e.g. pretending to be a doctor). But I think the recap of events showed that John enjoyed messing with and intimidating people. He loved it. As you said, he loved dominating people and showing them how smart (he thought) he was. 

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11 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I saw the real Debra on a talk show the other night and her voice was normal. I don't know where Connie Britton dug up this breathy cutesy voice but it makes me not like her as an actor. 

I saw an interview with Debra and Terra.   Debra came across as ditzy, giggling at inappropriate times, bizarrely lighthearted and her voice was the breathy, spacey voice like Connie’s been doing.  Could not imagine being around the real Debra for more than 10 minutes.

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2 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

I agree with you. Most con artists just want to get money and maybe some prestige (e.g. pretending to be a doctor). But I think the recap of events showed that John enjoyed messing with and intimidating people. He loved it. As you said, he loved dominating people and showing them how smart (he thought) he was.

Right?! At least with the money con artists, the motive is somewhat understandable (but NOT acceptable, of course): flat-out greed. Seriously, if John were able to not be that way (like if one could conceivably just switch off the psycho, haha!), it's likely that in a few months, he maybe wouldn't have even had to pretend to have a job; she'd probably just eventually happily support and grow old with him and all he'd have to do is, like, act human! It wold be a lot less work than what he's doing. 

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11 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

But I think the recap of events showed that John enjoyed messing with and intimidating people. He loved it

I agree. He slept with a guy to have leverage - not a lot of straight men would do that. 

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Agree with all who are saying John could have gotten away with it easily. It's a thought I had last week when he sent that idiotic video to her daughter. All he had to do was act moderately decently (well, and get clean). And he'd have as much spending money as he wanted, a beautiful place to live... seriously, we don't see him wanting anything in particular, not other women or anything but the car. And he destroys that. I guess he's temperamentally unable to be satisfied.

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On 1/7/2019 at 7:57 AM, Ninny said:

 I do have to give her props tho, for putting herself out there with this.  She had to know she would come out looking like a desperate, self absorbed nitwit.  

Debra Newell was on WWHL with Andy Monday night. She was behind the bar. Andy asked her a question, something like "what do you want people to know that isn't shown". She said the seven months(?) worth of research she did and my favorite, all the romance she had with John. 

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13 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I saw an interview with Debra and Terra.   Debra came across as ditzy, giggling at inappropriate times, bizarrely lighthearted and her voice was the breathy, spacey voice like Connie’s been doing.  Could not imagine being around the real Debra for more than 10 minutes.

Then she must turn it on and off when she want because the Debra I saw and heard didn't have that awful voice. 

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45 minutes ago, itsadryheat said:

Debra Newell was on WWHL with Andy Monday night. She was behind the bar. Andy asked her a question, something like "what do you want people to know that isn't shown". She said the seven months(?) worth of research she did and my favorite, all the romance she had with John. 

She said they didn't show the amount of research before meeting Scumbag. She also said she was in hiding for 7 months and the show really don't show that. 

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One thing I haven't seen addressed here: the episode titles. Last week's was One Shoe, and this week's is Chivalry. Do you all have any idea where/how they're coming up with these titles? I feel like I missed something.

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"One Shoe" made me think of some hybrid juxtaposition of a Cinderella story (romance) and waiting for the other shoe to drop (suspicion). I got nothin' for "Chivalry"!

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Enough about Tim Riggins and back on topic:  I think that Eric Bana does a great job as Dirty John by just looking crazy, like he'd do anything to anybody to get what he wants.  It's really chilling to watch and still don't see how Debra couldn't see just what a monster he was.  The fact that she agreed to meet him at the restaurant after all she went through with him and having a restraining order against him, just blows my mind.  Plus, I'm pretty sure that if John had eaten anything she would have paid the bill.   

Edited by Ohwell · Reason: "he was"
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20 hours ago, CharlizeCat said:

I wanted to see the "picture" of Debra that John sent to all of her clients.  The tentative way in which her assistant was talking about it made it sound like a nude photo or sex tape.  John seems the type who'd put hidden cameras in the shower as well as secretly tape Debra and him having sex. 

I've watched the episodes many times & seem to come across something new each time.

I'm on the second episode now and John comments about a picture Debra texted him.  It sounds like it was revealing because of his comments about not being able to get any work done after looking at it. It was in one of their bathroom getting ready for the day  tooth brushing scenes.  I originally thought he probably used a picture that he secretly taped but now think it could have been this one she sent him. (Which probably made her feel even more upset knowing she sent it to him in the first place & now it's being sent to her clients.)

2 hours ago, gotta watch said:

One thing I haven't seen addressed here: the episode titles. Last week's was One Shoe, and this week's is Chivalry. Do you all have any idea where/how they're coming up with these titles? I feel like I missed something.

Each title comes from something in that episode.  The first episode was "Approachable Dreams." Debra said this on their first date when she was telling John about her favorite designer.  It was her mantra she used in her career.

In the episode "Remember It Was Me" it was what John said to Tonia at the end of the episode when he threatened  her.

"One Shoe" was because when Debra was packing at the end to get away from John she was just throwing things haphazardly in her bag & ended up packing just one shoe.

"Chivalry " was a reference back to the conversation she had with her mother when she needed reaffirmation that John was a good guy.  They claimed he was chivalrous because he seemed to be well mannered, courteous & old fashioned, even picking Debra up at her door on their first date like it was done in the old days. 

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On 1/8/2019 at 4:01 PM, 2727 said:

It seems like John might have gotten away with this for a long time if he just could have been nice to Debra's family. He's faking it anyway -- why not spread around the attention and affection and "good guy" vibes he gave her? But he couldn't even pull that much off. He's a stupid con man.

That's because John is a dope fiend.  All he cares about is getting high.  Had he been sober, he could have been sitting pretty, married to a wealthy woman and never having to work a day in his life, if he wanted to start a business Debra probably would have given him the money.  John's a stupid idiot.

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6 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Agree with all who are saying John could have gotten away with it easily. It's a thought I had last week when he sent that idiotic video to her daughter. All he had to do was act moderately decently (well, and get clean). And he'd have as much spending money as he wanted, a beautiful place to live... seriously, we don't see him wanting anything in particular, not other women or anything but the car. And he destroys that. I guess he's temperamentally unable to be satisfied.

I don’t know if John could have managed to schmooze Veronica for very long. She was suspicious from the beginning, and like a good con artist, John knows how to read people well. He knew Veronica wasn’t going to fall for his bs, so his tack was to try to drive a wedge between Debra and her daughter.

However, I agree that John could’ve bought more time with Debra if he didn’ t do half of the things he did. Even after she found out about the drugs, she would have forgiven that if he had managed to stay clean. 

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There's a new thread called "Dirty Characters In Other Roles."

We've moved much of the Tammy, Tim and Cyrus talk there.  We left some posts that had both on topic and other roles elements but moving forward, please take any discussion about other roles the actors have played to that thread.

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On 1/7/2019 at 11:29 AM, nikita said:

Like Ninny said, he had sex with the guy ("I usually don't like doing it with guys, but...") and had pictures he'd taken in flagrante delicto. And not only was he getting the guy's pee in exchange for not showing the pix to the wife, he also got the leader to sign off on the therapy session for court when he knew John was full of shit *and* took all the cash from the box the guy had there (donations?).

OMG thank you.  This scene really confused me and my partner.  I thought that's what happened but it all flew by so fast.  I was confused on who John had slept with, and what cash he was making off with.

Edited by DrivingSideways
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3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

That's because John is a dope fiend.  All he cares about is getting high.  Had he been sober, he could have been sitting pretty, married to a wealthy woman and never having to work a day in his life, if he wanted to start a business Debra probably would have given him the money.  John's a stupid idiot.

I don't think he would've be sitting pretty in recovery.  Not only did he have addiction issues but he had a sadistic streak that sobriety won't cure.

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What happened to the sister when he was living in that trailer? Where did she go? Wasn't that where she was living when Ronnie and whoever visited her for info early on?

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39 minutes ago, hottesthw said:

What happened to the sister when he was living in that trailer? Where did she go? Wasn't that where she was living when Ronnie and whoever visited her for info early on?

That wasn’t his sister. That was just a neighbor.

His sister(s) were  out of the picture by then. I believe one sister had given him that trailer though at some time prior to his latest prison stay.  And at some previous point in time, after a prior prison stint, he had lived at his sisters mobile home park. She didn’t live there  she just owned it. 

2 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I don't think he would've be sitting pretty in recovery.  Not only did he have addiction issues but he had a sadistic streak that sobriety won't cure.

You are right. If he had just been a person who wanted to marry rich and be taken care of ( a gold digger) Debra probably would have kept him in fine style. But he had some personality issues where he wanted to con people just to con people, and to turn mean and ugly when he didn’t get his way.  He also wanted to isolate his target. He would have been that way even without a drug addiction.  Although, you could say the drugs were an attempt at self-medication for whatever mental thing he had going on. 

Edited by mythoughtis
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51 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

That wasn’t his sister. That was just a neighbor.

His sister(s) were  out of the picture by then. I believe one sister had given him that trailer though at some time prior to his latest prison stay.  And at some previous point in time, after a prior prison stint, he had lived at his sisters mobile home park. She didn’t live there  she just owned it. 

You are right. If he had just been a person who wanted to marry rich and be taken care of ( a gold digger) Debra probably would have kept him in fine style. But he had some personality issues where he wanted to con people just to con people, and to turn mean and ugly when he didn’t get his way.  He also wanted to isolate his target. He would have been that way even without a drug addiction.  Although, you could say the drugs were an attempt at self-medication for whatever mental thing he had going on. 

He falls into Cluster B of Personality Disorders- Antisocial Personality Disorder to be exact.  IMHO, of course.   

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On 1/6/2019 at 10:15 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

I couldn't believe the cops were buying John's line of bullshit about setting fire to the car.  Having possession of the key/fob does not give you ownership of the car.  If I steal your car key and use it to drive away your car, is it my car now?  No. If the title is in Debra's name (which I assume it is, she had it before she met him), it's Debra's car, and he set fire to it, which is a criminal act.  Period, end of story.

Debra sitting next to her lawyer at the police station and giggling about how "We had some really good times in that car" reminded me of how real life Debra sounds on the podcast.

He didn't just have possession of the key fob, he was her husband.  

On 1/7/2019 at 5:55 AM, Empress1 said:

When Cyrus the lawyer asked her if John had threatened to kill her and she was like "No but he did threaten to shoot my daughter with a sniper rifle and throw her in the ocean" I was thinking "Fool, do you hear yourself?"

Don't forget there was also "he said he was related to the mob and he'd have his family take care of me."

On 1/7/2019 at 7:22 AM, bichonblitz said:

I had a problem with this episode because the replay's showed John and his crazy antic/ thoughts but how do we know what he was really thinking, who he was contacting, when, what he actually said to the police when he burned the car, etc..... Granted, we know he was batshit nuts but this is supposed to be a true story. That whole re-enactment of what lead up to his showing up late to Debra's charity event is pure speculation. A waste of an episode. 

It isn't supposed to be a documentary though, it's just supposed to be inspired by or based on.  It has been pretty damn close to real life prior to this, so I'm inclined to give a little leeway for one episode.  Also, I think some of the stuff in this episode came from interviews with his other victims and other people involved because I recognized some of what was happen as stuff I've previously read or heard.  

On 1/8/2019 at 8:04 AM, bichonblitz said:

I saw the real Debra on a talk show the other night and her voice was normal. I don't know where Connie Britton dug up this breathy cutesy voice but it makes me not like her as an actor. 

As others mentioned, she matches the podcast completely, but even more crazy to me is the Dateline episode.  I've only watched part, but in watching it my main thought was "holy shit!  Connie nailed it!"  It's seriously creepy how dead on she is on voice, cadence, expressions, and mannerisms. 

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