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S02E09: Santa Muerte

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Not sure which were more wasted:   Prayers, or bullets?

I loved how most had talked themselves into a truth with the flimsiest of dots to connect - precisely as soooo many dots have been connected in most eps as they parse situations.  For once, they were dead wrong.  The Colonel was a hero.

The Bond villain scene with Mandy was just too much.  I was rooting for her end.  She didn't figure out the mole, her most basic mission, until it was too late.  Too bad, so sad.  Instead, the female Goldfinger just walks away with the full knowledge she has a powerful sworn enemy.  My guess is she will be launching what is, in effect, a suicide mission to get Doza.  

After I don't know how many warnings to conserve ammo, rounds were flying pell mell all over the joint.  Not a single weapon ran dry.  Huh?  The best was the pistol shooting of the bad guys who came up from behind.  1. 2. 3. 4.  All kill shots.  After twisting against his body.   

Absolutely NOTHING precluded the Priest from urging Lazo to tell Bravo Team the whereabouts of Doza.  The restrictions of Reconciliation (Confession) apply ONLY to information shared during the actual Sacrament.  Even then, a Priest may ask the penitent/confessor to be released from his obligation to utter silence.

The posthumous bad guys' prayer really bugged, too.  It's one (good) thing to pray that God forgive.  Quite another to assert the "rightful place" (next to their families) for the dead.  The Catholic Catechism is rather strict when it comes to dying in the commission of grave sin - such as murdering those fighting to purge the world of a Doza.  God may well forgive far more broadly than the Catechism indicates.  A Priest, however, is bound to follow it stringently. /End rant

I would have stopped watching the show if Bravo 2 had not called in the deathbed intel as to Doza's location.  I wonder if somebody on set pointed that out and they added that scene.  I don't recall hearing a response from Havoc acknowledging the transmission, though.  It was only the MOST critical information for the entire enterprise.  

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58 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Bravo 2 had not called in the deathbed intel as to Doza's location.  I wonder if somebody on set pointed that out and they added that scene.  I don't recall hearing a response from Havoc acknowledging the transmission, though.  It was only the MOST critical information for the entire enterprise.  

Havoc was on the Quick Reaction Force with the Mexican Marines but Petty Officer Davis stared at her computer, probably looking for the site at the end of a rail line after Senior Chief Perry made the call.

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I thought this was a pretty good episode, one of the more memorable ones so far.

It was weird that they were concerned about their ammo situation but didn't scrounge from the bad guys. Once Martinez died his rifle and ammo should have been distributed to the team and when they took down three bad guys they got at least three more guns dropped at their feet.

Also, although the parallel to Blackhawk Down is very clear (under-equipped team gets caught off guard and has to fight their way out) do none of these guys carry grenades? I suppose we could say that the rules of engagement for urban combat in Mexico preclude their use but it still reminded me of Jayne's famous remark in Serenity ("Sure would be nice if we had some grenades, dont'cha think?!?!").

I know Mandy isn't a soldier but she should still know the weight difference between an empty gun and a full one. And since that gun was obviously given to her by Mrs. Leather Sneakypants, Mandy should have done her basic gun safety due diligence and checked the weapon first which would have brought to her attention that there were no bullets in it!

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@Lonesome Rhodes I found your summary more interesting than the episode.  I don’t know why but this mission in Mexico is making my interest in the show as a whole wane.

I will say that Jessica looked as good as she ever has when Mandy and the bad lady were searching the house.  Dressing up suits her much more than business wear.

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8 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The Bond villain scene with Mandy was just too much.  I was rooting for her end.  She didn't figure out the mole, her most basic mission, until it was too late.  Too bad, so sad.  Instead, the female Goldfinger just walks away with the full knowledge she has a powerful sworn enemy.  My guess is she will be launching what is, in effect, a suicide mission to get Doza.  

Great idea, I didn't think of that.  If she was really a "big bad" or on the cartel's side I think they'd have gone with her killing or at least shooting Mandy to introduce a new plot and give the team an excuse to go after her.  I like your idea better, she sacrifices herself so she doesn't go to jail (where she'd certainly be killed), she's not on the run and her sister and nieces are safe. 

I like the show yet here comes the but...........I feel like the writers don't know what to do with these arcing multi-episode plots.  It's like their time in Afghanistan last season, it starts off good, they have a good reason to go after the person or group, there's a pretty good story behind the whole thing.  But then, it goes on and one and on, they layer one plot device and one new character over another and another and another.  Until it's dragged on about two episodes longer than it should have and gotten 40% more complicated than it needed to be.  They don't have to dumb it down but they could show a little restraint too, I sometimes feel like they're throwing every plot device they can at us to see what sticks.  I guess this is a YMMV situation, some may find it even more complicated than I do some may think it's not complicated enough, I just feel like they could take it down maybe two notches and still have a compelling plot.

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9 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I thought this was a pretty good episode, one of the more memorable ones so far.

It was weird that they were concerned about their ammo situation but didn't scrounge from the bad guys. Once Martinez died his rifle and ammo should have been distributed to the team and when they took down three bad guys they got at least three more guns dropped at their feet.

Also, although the parallel to Blackhawk Down is very clear (under-equipped team gets caught off guard and has to fight their way out) do none of these guys carry grenades? I suppose we could say that the rules of engagement for urban combat in Mexico preclude their use but it still reminded me of Jayne's famous remark in Serenity ("Sure would be nice if we had some grenades, dont'cha think?!?!").

I know Mandy isn't a soldier but she should still know the weight difference between an empty gun and a full one. And since that gun was obviously given to her by Mrs. Leather Sneakypants, Mandy should have done her basic gun safety due diligence and checked the weapon first which would have brought to her attention that there were no bullets in it!

Well on this mission instead of being undercover as Mexican Marines it was just as another cartel's mercenaries so they were missing the body armor and other top line gear. But then again the enemy cartel comes along and pulls out an RPG.

Well I was a soldier, with a 45 as my primary weapon, being a tank crewman and since it was only loaded during annual qualification firing I don't think that I could tell the difference between the weight of an empty and full pistol from just being handed one  The SEALs are supposed to be the gunslingers who do that all day along with the function checks, not the female Jack Ryan who didn't even have the advantage of once being a Marine officer like him

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14 hours ago, Raja said:

Havoc was on the Quick Reaction Force with the Mexican Marines but Petty Officer Davis stared at her computer, probably looking for the site at the end of a rail line after Senior Chief Perry made the call.

I had thought she, and others, had answered and called under the "Havoc" designation on many occasions as they monitored things from HQ.  That's why the call from "Havoc Actual" as the QRF approached was made - to distinguish that it was Commander Blackburn himself.  I apologize for my error(s). 

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6 hours ago, Raja said:

Well on this mission instead of being undercover as Mexican Marines it was just as another cartel's mercenaries so they were missing the body armor and other top line gear. But then again the enemy cartel comes along and pulls out an RPG.

Well I was a soldier, with a 45 as my primary weapon, being a tank crewman and since it was only loaded during annual qualification firing I don't think that I could tell the difference between the weight of an empty and full pistol from just being handed one  The SEALs are supposed to be the gunslingers who do that all day along with the function checks, not the female Jack Ryan who didn't even have the advantage of once being a Marine officer like him

CIA officers are still trained to use firearms, so she should know how to perform a press check on an unfamiliar firearm to verify that it’s loaded.

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I know this David B’s show- but his character is  not a decent human being. Nor does he make good decisions.  In real life, wouldn’t someone report that to someone in leadership?  

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8 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I know this David B’s show- but his character is  not a decent human being. Nor does he make good decisions.  In real life, wouldn’t someone report that to someone in leadership?  

This one is on the SEAL officers. The Master Chief had already pulled the plug and hardly any grieving period since the loss of his wife had passed. Charlie or Delta teams should be on any active missions for the time while Bravo is reconstituted.

Edited by Raja
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20 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I know Mandy isn't a soldier but she should still know the weight difference between an empty gun and a full one.

The M9 pistol weighs about 34½ oz. empty.  It carries a 15- or 17-round clip.  9x19 M882 NATO rounds weigh just under ½ oz. each.  So even with the smaller mag and the hammer on an empty chamber, the overall weight of the pistol increases by around 7 oz. when loaded.  The difference would (IMHO) be immediately noticeable to anyone who had experience of handling that type of weapon.

I'd also call it a gross breech (see what I did there?) of firearms safety to not check the chamber for a round after being handed a weapon, even if the weight is right.  This would be one of the first things you would have instilled into you when you began firearms training.  

Given Mandy's line of work, I can't accept that she had never been trained in firearms handling, or that she had no experience with weapons of that type.

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10 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Given Mandy's line of work, I can't accept that she had never been trained in firearms handling, or that she had no experience with weapons of that type.

We know she had a training on "the Farm" because even the CIA analysts do that.

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The M9 pistol weighs about 34½ oz. empty

I'm not a gun expert, but the gun did not like an M9 (similar to a Beretta 92FS) to me. It looked more like Makarov.

EDIT: According to IMFDB it's a Walther PPK.

Edited by FinnishViewer

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1 hour ago, FinnishViewer said:

I'm not a gun expert, but the gun did not like an M9

Honestly, I didn't pay attention to the type of weapon.  I used the M9 in my comments because it is a common pistol issued to the US services.

1 hour ago, FinnishViewer said:

According to IMFDB it's a Walther PPK.

Ok, The PPK is available in a number of calibers from .22 LR with 10 rounds to .380 ACP with 7.  (Do they make a 9x19?).   I suspect Mandy would have been using the .380 version at about 23½ oz.  The weight of a .380 round would result in around 2⅓ oz. difference in weight, full to empty.  The difference isn't as large as for the M9, but someone familiar with the weapon should still notice the pistol's Plimsoll line was showing!

And as @Mars477 said, a press check - which would be instinctive and automatic for anyone with firearms training - would have left her in no doubt.

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On 12/6/2018 at 4:03 PM, sigmaforce86 said:

I like the show yet here comes the but...........I feel like the writers don't know what to do with these arcing multi-episode plots.  It's like their time in Afghanistan last season, it starts off good, they have a good reason to go after the person or group, there's a pretty good story behind the whole thing.  But then, it goes on and one and on, they layer one plot device and one new character over another and another and another.  Until it's dragged on about two episodes longer than it should have and gotten 40% more complicated than it needed to be.  They don't have to dumb it down but they could show a little restraint too, I sometimes feel like they're throwing every plot device they can at us to see what sticks.  I guess this is a YMMV situation, some may find it even more complicated than I do some may think it's not complicated enough, I just feel like they could take it down maybe two notches and still have a compelling plot.

I feel the same and think it has to do with the decision to go for a full 22 episode season. Its very hard to do serialized plots on long seasons without a lot of fillers, so they chose a path between episodic and full serialized and went for several multi-episode plots, usually around specific locations. What they haven't quite figured out is how to fit the number of episodes to the needs of the stories. Or they are trying to fit the length to the TV calendar breaks. The TV series with short seasons (10-13) and one story arc, seem to work better because they are planned well ahead to the format length.

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