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20/20

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Some assorted thoughts regarding the story on the Bakkers:

-Kevin Spacey played Jim Bakker in a movie once. There are no words...

-Who the hell's idea was it to desecrate a classic like "My Girl" in that one clip from Bakker's new show? 

-Watching the Bakkers try and joke and flirt with each other and be all "cutesy married couple" on their show was so incredibly awkward and cringey. But man. Tammy Faye. It is hard not to sympathize with her some. That final appearance of hers on Larry King was haunting. Given the talk about her being addicted to prescription pills, I get the feeling Jim was a very controlling presence in her life. 

-I'm glad there was an investigation into the Bakkers' scams, but I don't like that Jerry Falwell was part of that investigation, because you know his motives weren't at all sincere. But Falwell wouldn't be Falwell if he wasn't on some kind of holier-than-thou crusade about something, so...

-It really, really ticks me off how these religious people will court all these politicians and try and influence them to implement their religious beliefs into our government and its policies and laws, yet these same people will get all bent out of shape and angry when the government tries to investigate them anytime they do something shady. No. You guys can't have it both ways. If you get to push your religion into the government, that means the government gets to get into your business in return. It's a two-way street. If you want them to butt out of your business, then you need to do the same. 

Besides that, in this case, clearly, the government's issue was not with them being religious in and of itself, it was with, y'know, the scamming and the fraud and the rape allegations and such. Just like when the FBI goes after polygamous compounds, it's not an attack on religion, it's because those people are abusing children. 

-I will still never understand how people could buy into these guys' pleas to give them money. I don't understand how they saw Jim and Tammy's fancy home and cars and extravagant jewelry and freaking theme park and whatnot and honestly not put two and two together about where their money really went. And once they did find out, I still don't understand how they didn't care. 

-The reaction to the product "curing" all venereal diseases at the end cracked me up. 

-I would happily watch Ted Koppel interview Trump. 

Edited by Annber03
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The people who used to give away their money to the Bakkers/PTL probably moved on down the road to start giving it all to the Crouches/TBN and their empire. The Crouch husband and wife are gone now but their family has kept things going one of the sons is the President of TBN. 

35037.jpg.0a2b7b2cab8fe86907d8d35c4970f5f7.jpg

 

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The worst thing about people like the Bakkers (or the Crouches) is that TV viewers start thinking they represent the average Christian the way some people watch The Godfather and think that's what typical Italian-Americans are like, or, for that matter,  any religious or ethnic group based on their TV representation.

From what I've learned by watching, "Hoarders," there are a whole lot of lonely people who watch QVC "faithfully," and somehow feel connected and part of it all when they buy something and hold the line hoping to talk about the product on air.  I think it must be the same thing with the ones who buy into the prosperity gospel and send "seed money" to the people who use religion to make profit for themselves. 

I guess it's as old as the street markets in Jerusalem and Mecca, 2000 years ago, selling little trinkets with a promise of making the Christian, or Muslim, home better somehow.  One of the most popular "home decor" items in the world is a Buddha statue.

The regular viewers of the Christian TV Networks are like the loyal home shoppers  and to them, the Jimmy Swaggarts and Crouches are their Kardashians and they just want to feel  included. 

The Christians I know IRL have nothing at all in common with these people.  They attend their local churches, donate to them for community food banks, volunteer for the soup kitchens, welcome gays into their churches, and couldn't tell you who the current "televangelists" even are.

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

-It really, really ticks me off how these religious people will court all these politicians and try and influence them to implement their religious beliefs into our government

-

-

It's more often the other way around.  When Ronald Reagan was running for president he was told that he had no chance of winning unless he managed to get a big block of voters from some sort of special interest group.  From that, his campaign came up with the idea of the "Christian Coalition" which told people that if they were Christian they were duty bound to vote Republican.  Until then, most Christians in the south had been Democrats, but the idea caught on and  to this day lots of Christians think, based mainly on abortion issues, that they should vote Republican.  You can see the Christian vote being courted and used by politicians  in this way at every election since. 

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Great point about these people not representing your average Christians. That's very true and worth remembering. I can just imagine how horrified/embarrassed a lot of them are when they do see people like Bakker on TV. 

I also like your explanation about why people send money, and the "Hoarders" comparison. That's a fascinating angle to consider, and it does help me better understand on some level why they do this. 

And thanks for the explanation regarding Reagan. It's frustrating that people can manipulate voters that way. I wish the FCC had been able to finish their investigation into all this stuff-I get the feeling things would be very different in this country if they had. 

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8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

 That final appearance of hers on Larry King was haunting. 

First, fantastic post, Judy Obscure. Couldn't agree more. Just once, I'd like to see "normal"people of faith portrayed accurately in the media. It's one of my pet peeves. We're not all psychopathic serial killers and televangelist donors. Some of us are thoughtful, kind and intelligent. 

Re: Tammy Faye and the above quote. ( I wanted to include more of it but I find the quote function incredibly oversensitive and gave up.) 

I saw her just before her death on some show and "haunting" is the right word. I expected, given her religious persona, to see her calm and accepting, having made peace with what was obviously her impending death. (She weighed about 80 pounds.) To my shock and horror, she kept going on about how she was going to beat cancer, and how she'd never stop fighting to stay alive. She seemed utterly desperate and terrified of death. It was incredibly upsetting and moving. I'll never forget it. 

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I haven't watched the 20/20 episode yet. I remember Tammy Faye being on Larry King Live a day or two I think it was before she died though. She was doing the interview from her home with Larry being in whatever studio he was inhabiting that day. I've never forgotten what she looked like either and how upset she was. I think she did regret what she did with Jim back in the day. I don't think he'll ever regret it, instead he'll always regret that he got caught.

Edited by Jaded · Reason: Spelling spelling spelling
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I found the book written by the ex-wife of Oral Roberts son to be very enlightening, about the lifestyle and the opulent spending what so many people send in to people they think are doing the Lord's work.    Ashes to Gold by Patti Roberts (ex of Richard Roberts) was an interesting book to me, outlining the over the top spending, and how they all lived the country club lifestyle, while their followers were impoverishing themselves to send their last dimes to their church.  

Richard and his next wife, Lindsay were bounced from the management of the Oral Roberts University, after fiscal issues were exposed.  In return for $70 million to bail the OR University out, Robert was out of everything but Oral Roberts Ministries (where the checks are sent).     

Interesting read : https://longreads.com/2014/09/16/oral-roberts-family-history/

Edited by CrazyInAlabama
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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 12:33 AM, Annber03 said:

Some assorted thoughts regarding the story on the Bakkers:

-Kevin Spacey played Jim Bakker in a movie once. There are no words...

-Who the hell's idea was it to desecrate a classic like "My Girl" in that one clip from Bakker's new show? 

-Watching the Bakkers try and joke and flirt with each other and be all "cutesy married couple" on their show was so incredibly awkward and cringey. But man. Tammy Faye. It is hard not to sympathize with her some. That final appearance of hers on Larry King was haunting. Given the talk about her being addicted to prescription pills, I get the feeling Jim was a very controlling presence in her life. 

-I'm glad there was an investigation into the Bakkers' scams, but I don't like that Jerry Falwell was part of that investigation, because you know his motives weren't at all sincere. But Falwell wouldn't be Falwell if he wasn't on some kind of holier-than-thou crusade about something, so...

-It really, really ticks me off how these religious people will court all these politicians and try and influence them to implement their religious beliefs into our government and its policies and laws, yet these same people will get all bent out of shape and angry when the government tries to investigate them anytime they do something shady. No. You guys can't have it both ways. If you get to push your religion into the government, that means the government gets to get into your business in return. It's a two-way street. If you want them to butt out of your business, then you need to do the same. 

Besides that, in this case, clearly, the government's issue was not with them being religious in and of itself, it was with, y'know, the scamming and the fraud and the rape allegations and such. Just like when the FBI goes after polygamous compounds, it's not an attack on religion, it's because those people are abusing children. 

-I will still never understand how people could buy into these guys' pleas to give them money. I don't understand how they saw Jim and Tammy's fancy home and cars and extravagant jewelry and freaking theme park and whatnot and honestly not put two and two together about where their money really went. And once they did find out, I still don't understand how they didn't care. 

-The reaction to the product "curing" all venereal diseases at the end cracked me up. 

-I would happily watch Ted Koppel interview Trump. 

I've known some devout Christians. They believe that God will guide all their decisions. When they heard the Bakkers say God wants you to send us money they will do so without hesitation. They never connected the Bakker's wealth with their donations they believed Jim any Tammy had been blessed by God.

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I remember the big deal about the theme park raising for the Bakkers too.     

Look at the Miracle Spring Water commercials that they're showing now, and I'm sure they're bringing in a lot of money from true believers.     

There was a family friend who sent a lot of money to Oral and his ministries, and was crazy about the founding of the university.     Fortunately, the friend died right before the big deal about if a certain minister didn't raise millions by a certain date, he would be called home.    That would have broken my friend's heart.  

I'm reminded of Ray Steven's song "Would Jesus Wear a Rolex", whenever I see the megachurches begging for money.   

Edited by CrazyInAlabama
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On 1/19/2019 at 12:33 AM, Annber03 said:

-Who the hell's idea was it to desecrate a classic like "My Girl" in that one clip from Bakker's new show? 

 

OMG! I loved they included that clip! Here's the full video which I stumbled on many months ago: 

 

I had forgotten until I saw this episode that there had been allegations that (Jim) Bakker had hooked up with a man. An allegation I find completely believable. I'd also forgotten that Jerry Falwell took over Bakker's "ministry" and then totally hosed him over in the end. He was another crook.

I've no sympathy for people who continue to get fleeced by this guy or any of these assholes who preach the "prosperity gospel."

Also, if anyone is need of a laugh at Jim Bakker's expense, a very funny man named Vic Berger put together this video of the vileness of the new and improved Bakker (and his creepy wife's) show:

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8 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

OMG! I loved they included that clip! Here's the full video which I stumbled on many months ago: 

 

...thanks, now I need to go stab my ears :p. Tell ya what, guys, I'll send you some money if you promise to never do that again.

(You ever wonder if that guy, at any point, stops and thinks to himself, "How the hell did I let my life come to this?")

That second video was creepy, too. The sight of that broccoli rice whatever thing was enough to make me gag. Also, Jim's new wife looks like she could be related to that "Long Island Medium" lady. 

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11 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

My absolute favorite take on televangelism came from John Oliver :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=7y1xJAVZxXg

The word reload in that YT link kept making this thread reload each time I clicked it. I took the word out and it worked correctly. I loved that segment from John Oliver's show. A lot of the televangelists in that segment are also people who contributed to me giving religion a big side eye. I remember flipping through channels years ago and that Robert Tilton guy always seemed to be screaming like that. Those Copelands with their show 'The Believers Voice In Victory' always freaked me out. I didn't recognize the two plane guy from that clip even though I've probably seen him before later on they showed his name though. It makes me so mad and at the same time sickens me that these assholes can say the things they do to their followers with a straight face.
 


Update 
 


Final Update (People were sending actual seed/semen)
 

Edited by Jaded
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On 1/24/2019 at 5:53 AM, Jaded said:

The word reload in that YT link kept making this thread reload each time I clicked it. I took the word out and it worked correctly. I loved that segment from John Oliver's show. A lot of the televangelists in that segment are also people who contributed to me giving religion a big side eye. I remember flipping through channels years ago and that Robert Tilton guy always seemed to be screaming like that. Those Copelands with their show 'The Believers Voice In Victory' always freaked me out. I didn't recognize the two plane guy from that clip even though I've probably seen him before later on they showed his name though. It makes me so mad and at the same time sickens me that these assholes can say the things they do to their followers with a straight face.
 

 


Update 
 

 


Final Update (People were sending actual seed/semen)
 

 

OMG!!! I really don't understand her hair. lol

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9 hours ago, stillhere1900 said:

OMG!!! I really don't understand her hair. lol

It's a throwback to 80's hair and the way a lot of (not all) older women wore their hair for a long time especially the ones on religious channels. 

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On 1/28/2019 at 10:54 AM, stillhere1900 said:

OMG!!! I really don't understand her hair. lol

Google image search Tammy Faye Bakker or Jan Crouch. You’ll see. 

 

I sent John Oliver a check for $1 just to see who would endorse it/what would happen. (I knew it was all going to charity.)

Edited by Tdoc72
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I'm wondering if I was the only one who watched the BTK episode. I live in Kansas and remember that serial killer & when he was caught. But I was amazed his daughter went on tv & talked about it & gave up her anonymity. I don't think I could have done that.

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58 minutes ago, rhys said:

But I was amazed his daughter went on tv & talked about it & gave up her anonymity. I don't think I could have done that.

Same. I totally get her reasons for wanting to open up about this, and I also sympathize with her mom's desire to just stay out of the spotlight and move on. Whatever helps each of them heal and work through all of this horror, and all that. I felt for her so much when she talked about coming across that "Mindhunter" show and seeing her father and his crimes being dramatized on TV, and the actor looking eerily like her dad. Talk about surreal...

I'm really glad that she's got such a supportive, stable family of her own, though, and I liked the way she and her husband talked about how to address this topic with their own children. I can't even begin to imagine, when the day finally comes for the kids to learn the full truth about their grandfather, how tough that conversation will be. But I think it's clear those two will be as prepared as possible, and hopefully that'll make things at least a bit more manageable. 

On a related note, man, that footage of Dennis doing the whole doting dad thing the day his daughter got married was beyond bizarre to watch. Going based just off that footage alone, I can easily see how people would've been fooled by him for so long. I would not have thought, "Hey, that's a serial killer standing there", either. The bit about him walking around that news station and observing the newsanchors reporting on the BTK case, not knowing that the killer they were talking about was right there among the crowd, was incredibly chilling, too. It's stunning how absolutely brazen he was. 

And then everything with the Otero family. Heartbreaking and horrifying. I figured they'd have to touch on the Clutter family murders at some point as another notable crime from that state-I would've thought that case would've debunked the whole "Things like that just don't happen here" mindset pretty quickly among the people of Kansas in general, regardless of where they lived. Evidently not, though. 

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3 hours ago, rhys said:

I'm wondering if I was the only one who watched the BTK episode. I live in Kansas and remember that serial killer & when he was caught. But I was amazed his daughter went on tv & talked about it & gave up her anonymity. I don't think I could have done that.

She was promoting her book.

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On 1/18/2019 at 11:27 PM, Melina22 said:

I remember watching Tammy Faye on the Surreal Life many years ago. I believe this was after her divorce and her first bout with cancer. She seemed oddly nice and surprisingly normal at the time. Very little crying, thank goodness. But of course she had the OTT makeup as always. 

I watched that too, and I think it was very smart of her to do that show.  It showed her in a different light - she was very supporting of gays, loved everyone no matter what, made new friends with some unlikely people (Ron Jeremy, anyone)  I remember when that whole scandal happened and it was just....gross.  How he is allowed on tv to sell anything is a puzzler.

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I was a little surprised that she chose to have kids. Radar had no childhood trauma (that he'll admit to) so you have to wonder if there's a strong genetic component.

 She has had to do a lot of work in order to move forward. She looked so much like Rader, it's a little startling. That probably makes it harder too.

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On 1/19/2019 at 7:53 AM, JudyObscure said:

From what I've learned by watching, "Hoarders,"

Or as I like to call it:  The Show That Makes Me Clean my Bathroom and Kitchen so You Can Eat Off the Floor."

One more thing about Tammy Faye that made me really respect her:  She appeared on Larry King Live about 48 or so hours before she passed from cancer.  She looked so haggard, so drawn, she could hardly speak but she did it to show the ravages of cancer and I suspect to say goodbye to everyone.

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I was also gobsmacked when she said she would see her dad in heaven. Hmmm. I'm a recovering catholic but I don't think heaven is open for murderers. Jeesch.

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I just watched the Bundy episode. Who in the world thought it was a good idea to keep playing snatches of “(Don’t Fear) the Reaper”? There’s no way to avoid thinking “more cowbell” each and every time. 

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2 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I just watched the Bundy episode. Who in the world thought it was a good idea to keep playing snatches of “(Don’t Fear) the Reaper”? There’s no way to avoid thinking “more cowbell” each and every time. 

i was thinking the same thing. that song can never be listened to without laughing. poor choice. the bundy episode was very good. though it always freaks me out, the psychopathic personality , serial killers all that. you just never know do you? has there every been a documentary or book the explains in layman's terms what may have made these people evil? it's fascinating albeit horrible.

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I remember watching a Bundy TV movie where Mark Harmon played him when it was re-aired on some channel in the 90's. I mention it because each time Harmon's version of him went to get in his off white Volkswagen Beetle some weird music would start playing. I was trying to find a clip featuring one of those scenes with the music and came up empty. I did find this promo while looking though.
 

Edited by Jaded
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