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Mad Men

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5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Even her aggressive conversation with Don in front of the kids because she assumes they can't know words like whatever it was she used--adultery? Something like that. How innocent does she expect kids to be if her affair is discovered?

The word she used was "philandering".  And, I also vommed over her "children are so innocent and magical" schtick.  Such a hippie poser.

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On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:21 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, that's the moment I wish Don had been willing to tell her off. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of creeps hitting on you, but whatever flirting Don was doing had far more deniability than Suzanne calling him up half-drunk to bring up their deep emotional connection again while Betty's going into labor and might as well not exist. The conversation at the eclipse was especially bold given that iirc she asks him what he's doing for the summer and then objects when he tells her as if he just did something sneaky by giving her this information.

Suzanne was a hypocrite, but so was Don.  When Don was talking to Suzanne on the phone, she asked how he was, and he told her she was the only one who would think to ask that, it annoyed me to no end.  How dare his pregnant wife, who just lost her father, who he has been cheating on for years, and slut shamed on more than one occasion, not dance attendance on Don's needs 24/7.  In the beginning of their marriage, Betty loved and adored Don, and he is the one who threw it all away.

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18 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Suzanne was a hypocrite, but so was Don.  When Don was talking to Suzanne on the phone, she asked how he was, and he told her she was the only one who would think to ask that, it annoyed me to no end.  How dare his pregnant wife, who just lost her father, who he has been cheating on for years, and slut shamed on more than one occasion, not dance attendance on Don's needs 24/7.  In the beginning of their marriage, Betty loved and adored Don, and he is the one who threw it all away.

So true! It's not even like it's some great compassion on her part. She's concerned with the welfare of the person she wants. It's even a running theme on the show of other people pointing out to Don that they support him all the time and then find themselves hung out to dry because Don had some impulse and didn't think about anyone else. Betty's love and adoration was invisible because it was too familiar.

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So yet another time through, and I find myself even more resolutely... Team Megan!

I don't even know what 2013 me would think, if she knew.  Back then the sight of Jessica Pare onscreen made me want to throw my TV out the window.  Five years on and 12 times through the series, I'm all, "Fuck you, Don!!" right now.  And Sylvia: in the words of Rose Castorini (Cher's mom in Moonstruck): "I want you to stop seeing [him]!...And go to confession."

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LLet me append to my newly-discovered Megan!Love, blooming affection for one Bob Benson.

The first time around I thought him a bundle of ass-kissing fakery.  After his Big Reveal, I understood him better.  Still didn't care much for the character, though I hated how Pete handled his confession.

Now, despite his Draper-like reinvention (or maybe because of it) I find he annoys me...well, not at all, anymore.  What won me over?  When he cheerily managed Ginsburg, prior to the Manischewitz presentation.  *Loved* that whole scene, down to Stan's eye-rolling departure.

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Giving the series another try because I could never get past the first episode of season 6. I forgot how much I despise Sally Draper. What an obnoxious brat. 

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10 hours ago, newyawk said:

I forgot how much I despise Sally Draper. What an obnoxious brat. 

Eek!  A soulmate!!

Sit right down here next to me.  We may have to swim upstream against the Kiernan Shipka Fan Club; there may be only...uh... five of us; but we be a hearty band.

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On 10/29/2018 at 12:07 AM, voiceover said:

Eek!  A soulmate!!

Sit right down here next to me.  We may have to swim upstream against the Kiernan Shipka Fan Club; there may be only...uh... five of us; but we be a hearty band.

I just watched The Beautiful Girls episode (s4e9) and applauded when Sally ran down the hallway and fell on her face, lol. 

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27 minutes ago, newyawk said:

You know, even in a cast of characters full of assholes, Margaret Sterling is a particularly huge asshole.

I agree.  I don't think there was a single scene where I liked, or sympathized with Margaret.  Maybe when she was crying over her father marrying a woman her own age, but even then, she was being overly dramatic, about it.  Then she became Marigold, and abandoned her child.  Margaret/Marigold sucks.

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1 hour ago, newyawk said:

You know, even in a cast of characters full of assholes, Margaret Sterling is a particularly huge asshole.

She's kind of a wonderful creation, especially because her parents are both in their own ways so fabulous. I always get the feeling that her issue is more about that Roger being emotionally unavailable. I mean, it would be hard to have a father who was always so witty you could never touch him, but the way Margaret seemed to try to go about it even at 16 was just awful--and she turned out to be much worse than he was, really. Roger can be careless, but when it came to his family (including those who weren't blood related) he was never intentionally hurtful, it seemed to me.  Like when Margaret sucks up to him to ask for money--that's not the type of thing Roger would do. He'd ask for something if he had to, but he'd be upfront about it and not fake affection to get it. There's a reason nobody except Margaret can stay angry at him.

She's like Ferris Bueller's sister Jeanie but without the sympathy and without the ultimate turnaround at the end. 

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1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Roger can be careless, but when it came to his family (including those who weren't blood related) he was never intentionally hurtful, it seemed to me.

I don't like Margaret either. I do wonder how much Roger was even around for her growing up. It's probably how Roger was raised, but that doesn't work for everyone. I think the Margaret storyline did showcase the generational gaps that happens to most families, but made worse by the cultural upheaval of the time and the privilege that the Sterlings had. Margaret was very needy that her tipping point involved running away. 

Compare Margaret to Pete. They both had privileged upbringings and emotionally unavailable parents. Pete really struggled and was an ass, but he gets a turnaround and a sympathetic story arc. He ended up being better than both his parents. 

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I hated the way Margaret tried to justify leaving Ellery by saying that's what Roger did to her.  Mona should have slapped her.

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I agree.  I don't think there was a single scene where I liked, or sympathized with Margaret.  Maybe when she was crying over her father marrying a woman her own age, but even then, she was being overly dramatic, about it.  Then she became Marigold, and abandoned her child.  Margaret/Marigold sucks.

You know, it is interesting.  In Kramer v. Kramer, set about a decade after the events of Margaret leaving her life, you see a woman in a similar situation.  She's deeply unhappy with her own life, so she abandons her child for some indefinite period to go and find herself, so she can be a better parent when she returns to reclaim him.  Ultimately, it's a very selfish act on her part, but you can see why she did it.  With Margaret, I don't think they did a great job of explaining Margaret's thinking, and she seemed too old to run off and join a hippie commune.  I guess the idea is that she is her father's daughter, in that she put her own needs first and didn't give much thought to the damage she was doing.  I'd like to imagine that Margaret probably would return to the fold at some point, and at least try to resume her role as a parent.    

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4 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

You know, it is interesting.  In Kramer v. Kramer, set about a decade after the events of Margaret leaving her life, you see a woman in a similar situation.  She's deeply unhappy with her own life, so she abandons her child for some indefinite period to go and find herself, so she can be a better parent when she returns to reclaim him.  Ultimately, it's a very selfish act on her part, but you can see why she did it.  With Margaret, I don't think they did a great job of explaining Margaret's thinking, and she seemed too old to run off and join a hippie commune.  I guess the idea is that she is her father's daughter, in that she put her own needs first and didn't give much thought to the damage she was doing.  I'd like to imagine that Margaret probably would return to the fold at some point, and at least try to resume her role as a parent.    

The thing with Margaret is in Kramer vs. Kramer, although we didn't see their previous life, there were some clues as to how Joanna was a full-time caretaker etc. We saw how her husband got used to basically just talking over her etc. Not that this made her decision any less hurtful to the child, but she did seem to be telling the truth when she said she wanted to be a better parent eventually.

With Margaret it's hard not to judge her by the pattern of events we'd seen over the past 10 years. She always seemed to be wailing about something in her life she didn't have while other people were doing at least something to give it to her. She wanted to get married, she wanted money for her husband, she hated her dad's new wife, she didn't want to get married because the wedding was ruined, she was going to therapy, she went to a commune where Roger tried to understand her. Plus even she herself didn't see the commune as a place where she was improving herself with Ellery in mind that I remember. She felt she just had the right to live for herself because Roger did.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Margaret did eventually return and want to be a parent, but at this point I'd fear that she might bring the same attitude to her son and demand things he couldn't give her.

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Mona was part of a generation that was told you stay and make the marriage work no matter what.  They are now in a time when women were staying fuck that why the hell should we.  However, Mona is a strong woman.  Margaret is a spoiled selfish child, and probably will still be the same way when she is 80, if she lives that long.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mona raised her grandson, and he turned out much better than Margaret.  Mona dealt with and survived Roger divorcing her with more grace and maturity than 99% of the other characters on this show ever had.

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1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

Mona was part of a generation that was told you stay and make the marriage work no matter what.  They are now in a time when women were staying fuck that why the hell should we.  However, Mona is a strong woman.  Margaret is a spoiled selfish child, and probably will still be the same way when she is 80, if she lives that long.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mona raised her grandson, and he turned out much better than Margaret.  Mona dealt with and survived Roger divorcing her with more grace and maturity than 99% of the other characters on this show ever had.

Ultimately, it seems Mona knows Roger. She knows who he is and accepts him and even loves him in a way that doesn't damage herself. He's probably a much better ex-husband to her than he ever was a husband. (The same will never be true for Jane.) She has that great line where she says...damn, I can't remember the exact words. But basically she thought the problem was that he thought she was old when really it was that he thought he was. She figured out the problem was his, not hers.

By the end of the series Roger has even grown and seems to genuinely take some responsibility for Emory and Kevin, who might even someday have a positive relationship themselves, for all we know. (Since Emory is Roger's grandson it seems like their relationship would be less fraught than if they were half-brothers.)

One of the things that seems so positive to me about the end of the series is how so many characters are freed from trying to fit into a one-size-fits-all idea of who they should be so that they can have relationships that give them a chance to offer the best of themselves. Margaret by the end of the series still seemed stuck in resentment over what she didn't get. She seemed to use that as an excuse to not think about anybody but herself rather than accept what the flawed people in her life did have to offer. She seems doomed to spend the rest of her life furious that she's never going to be able to move through life like Roger, like Ferris Bueller's sister Jeannie.

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On 12/31/2018 at 10:52 AM, sistermagpie said:

Ultimately, it seems Mona knows Roger. She knows who he is and accepts him and even loves him in a way that doesn't damage herself. He's probably a much better ex-husband to her than he ever was a husband. (The same will never be true for Jane.) She has that great line where she says...damn, I can't remember the exact words. But basically she thought the problem was that he thought she was old when really it was that he thought he was. She figured out the problem was his, not hers.

I believe it's something along the lines of, "I used to think you married Jane because I got old, when really, it was because you got old."

And just because it bears repeating, Roger and Mona's post divorce relationship is one of my favorite things about the series.  I like how they were friends who understood each other, but also understood that their time as romantic partners was over, and how they were both okay with that.  I wish my parents had divorced as amicably.

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