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S05.E12: Lizability

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Considering the direction of the show is up in the air, why wouldn't they have Liza go to Chick(y), at least for a few episodes? It would have really brought some freshness to the cast/story. New characters, dueling between the two imprints, etc. Cheryl Sussman is manipulative, petty and eccentric, which is a nice break from Kelsey drinking and Charles trying to form words. Then if they wanted to have Charles and Liza be end game the arc could last for half of the season and then they could start another brand or she could go back to Millennial. OR she could kick Charles and Josh to the curb and start her own. Giving her a job offer just to rescind it like 10 minutes later is a waste of good material.

I'd rather watch a show about Lauren... or Josh starting a sperm donor business.

Also can they please get some type of coach up in there to teach Charles to kiss Liza if they want us to believe he's a straight man? He sort of just smushes his face against her cheek. Hopefully he's better at other things..

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1 hour ago, red. said:

Considering the direction of the show is up in the air, why wouldn't they have Liza go to Chick(y), at least for a few episodes? It would have really brought some freshness to the cast/story. New characters, dueling between the two imprints, etc. Cheryl Sussman is manipulative, petty and eccentric, which is a nice break from Kelsey drinking and Charles trying to form words. Then if they wanted to have Charles and Liza be end game the arc could last for half of the season and then they could start another brand or she could go back to Millennial. OR she could kick Charles and Josh to the curb and start her own. Giving her a job offer just to rescind it like 10 minutes later is a waste of good material.

I know. There's all sorts of potential in Liza working outside of Millennial. I know it's likely a budget/logistics issue to keep things relatively status quo, but then write the story to fit those parameters. It's just mean to tease us with a Liza–Cheryl Sussman arc and then chicken out.

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21 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Oh yeah - surprise twist: pregnant whats-her-face at the door. Insta-baby for Josh, yay - we all know that whats-her-face will bail after having given birth, right? Josh+puppy-eyes+baby=*groan*

I bet she will give birth and go away back to Ireland, or where she is from, leaving baby to Josh, or to that lesbian couple.   

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Things that Chick(y) has going for it as an imprint: it's part of a large, well-organized, multimedia company with plenty of staff (apparently), they have money to give a more than decent salary to the head of the imprint instead of seconding a lowly assistant to do the job part-time for assistant pay, Liza can openly have a relationship with Charles.*

*Though I worry that Charles, who now has plenty of time on his hands, is going to be needy and distracting. I know he said he wants to be there for his daughters -- who seem to have been bringing up themselves -- but he's not going to have anything else to do. Liza, on the other hand, wherever she works, is going to be busy.

Oh, and I'm glad someone mentioned the bad optics of dating your employee, no matter how consensual the relationship is.

Edited by morakot · Reason: Missed a comment
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52 minutes ago, morakot said:

Things that Chick(y) has going for it as an imprint: it's part of a large, well-organized, multimedia company with plenty of staff (apparently), they have money to give a more than decent salary to the head of the imprint instead of seconding a lowly assistant to do the job part-time for assistant pay, Liza can openly have a relationship with Charles.*

*Though I worry that Charles, who now has plenty of time on his hands, is going to be needy and distracting. I know he said he wants to be there for his daughters -- who seem to have been bringing up themselves -- but he's not going to have anything else to do. Liza, on the other hand, wherever she works, is going to be busy.

Oh, and I'm glad someone mentioned the bad optics of dating your employee, no matter how consensual the relationship is.

If she'd worked for Chick(y) Charles wouldn't have a lot of time on his hands. Martha Plimpton wouldn't have gone after him as revenge and he would have kept his job. I really have no desire to follow the adventures of Unemployed Charles next season when I could have followed the adventures of Liza Gains Confidence in Herself During New Job

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Something about Liza's plot-driven inability to leave Millenial/Empirical felt eerily familiar. Took me a while to figure out - this is just like Lady Edith who was not allowed to leave Downton Abbey for London despite being a successful journalist and owning a news magazine.

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The New York Times had a great interview with Darren Star and Sutton Foster. The final statement was this:

Quote

 

With luck, “Younger” will grow older. Sutton, how do you imagine Liza’s happy ending?

FOSTER You know what’s tricky? I don’t know if it involves a guy. I do want Liza to be happy, but I think it’s being able to live her full, honest truth in the work world and not have to lie, and for her to be successful and to have power and ownership of her career. But not necessarily to ride off into the sunset with some boy.

 

Yes.

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On 8/29/2018 at 11:58 AM, Hannah Lee said:

Darren Starr not having a vision for the show makes everything make so much sense now.  Liza ending one episode like a boss in a power suit, done with Charles' nonsense followed immediately by Liza dressing and acting like a 12 year old in the next, Kelsey's bizarre story arc, etc.

I never was more convinced of this than after watching him on that Facebook Live feature.  I get the impression that he's getting his direction from the fan response on social media.  Unfortunately, there are huge "Team Charles" and "Team Josh" factions so I figure that's why the show has concentrated on Liza's love life at the expense of her independence and career.  Even during the live session they were asking for fan opinion on how they want things to shape up next season.  It looks to me like he just collects the most popular suggestions and tries to fashion the show around them.  Unfortunately it's at the expense of any real direction and cohesion.  It's like a hodge-podge of things joined together in a rough fit.  It's too bad - I agree with everyone else here that this show had so much promise and there were so many really good story lines that weren't pursued (like the Chicky one!).  Sometimes the best work is not left up to the general public to decide!

I also got the impression that the cast wants different things from their characters than they're getting.  The comments from Hillary Duff and Sutton Foster about not necessarily seeing their characters end up with a man in the end were especially telling.  I seriously doubt Darren Starr will let that happen after all the ruckus online from the fan girls about which one Liza will choose in the end.

I also came away with a strong impression that Darren Starr is not really emotionally invested in this series.  I think he started it as a bit of fluff but didn't have any real vision for it and he lost interest in it before it got cancelled.  "Sex and the City" was very different.  Every character stayed true to themselves and evolved in a way that made sense for them.  The show tied up both their love lives and their professional lives in a satisfying way.  The only character on this show that has come close to that kind of evolution is Diana.

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5 minutes ago, Adultosaurus said:

Y'all I think we just saw a Series Finale.  I don't think we're going to get another round.

No, it's been renewed.  I think the renewal probably came after this season ended filming, though, so perhaps that's why Starr seemed so out of ideas and a half-assed attempt at wrapping things up was made.

Edited by Yeah No
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7 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

No, it's been renewed.  I think the renewal probably came after this season ended filming, though, so perhaps that's why Starr seemed so out of ideas and a half-assed attempt at wrapping things up was made.

Funny, I didn't feel like they wrapped up anything - I would've been well and truly pissed if this was a series finale! 

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Huh. That was okay, but not great.

My favorite part was when Zane told Kelsey that he was too good to stay. Or something like that. And that he had another job and he goes off with a smile. I like those twisty moments and feel like this show does that well.

Kelsey-they kind of did a number on her this season. I didn't feel like there was anything in her trainwreck of a storyline that would lead to her being put in charge of anything. I kind of hope that next season she crashes and burns, and Diana Trout steps in to save the day.

Diana-having Kelsey promoted above Diana was distasteful to me. I understand that most people think publishing=editorial but.....blergh. I want to see the competent, 40 something woman rewarded, damnit. Not that I dislike Kelsey-I just don't see how she is qualified for this. Happy to see Diana and Enzo together at the end of the season. 

Liza-should have gone to Chicky at least for a while. Martha Plimpton brought a really fun edge to the show. And she makes Diana seem soft!

Charles-so what happened to the blind item? Did it run? Curious to see where he goes next-I can see him retreating to upstate like the guy with sheep, growing a beard, and going back to the land or something 

Liza and Charles do seem like the end game, and I wanted them together but now that we've experienced it, I honestly just want Liza and Josh to get back together, have more hot sex, and lay on the couch and relax. As a 40 something, to me real work and real love with an age appropriate man is just not as fun as the fantasy of being 26 again with a 20 something hottie in love with me!

One of the things I do really love about this show is that it has made me realize that I age myself sometimes. I limit myself with what I am wearing or what I'm doing on weekends because I'm not in my 20's anymore and it doesn't feel age appropriate! This show has made me question that and re-embrace some things that I loved twenty years ago and let go when I got married and had kids. (Though I am keeping my age appropriate husband and job I worked hard for all these years, lol!)

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11 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Funny, I didn't feel like they wrapped up anything - I would've been well and truly pissed if this was a series finale! 

Yeah, a pregnant-Clare cliffhanger isn't exactly a finale move.

23 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

My favorite part was when Zane told Kelsey that he was too good to stay. Or something like that. And that he had another job and he goes off with a smile. I like those twisty moments and feel like this show does that well.

I hope Zane gets more to do next season than snipe at Kelsey. I don't get how the writers can have decent setups and terrible follow-throughs. Are they all from GH? (Heh. Sort of an inside joke for anyone who watches that terrible soap.) So much overall story potential was completely botched.

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58 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

Kelsey-they kind of did a number on her this season. I didn't feel like there was anything in her trainwreck of a storyline that would lead to her being put in charge of anything. I kind of hope that next season she crashes and burns, and Diana Trout steps in to save the day.

Diana-having Kelsey promoted above Diana was distasteful to me. I understand that most people think publishing=editorial but.....blergh. I want to see the competent, 40 something woman rewarded, damnit. Not that I dislike Kelsey-I just don't see how she is qualified for this.

She's SO unqualified to run a major publishing house it's comical. AFAICT, she doesn't have any employees (other than Liza) that she supervises and knows nothing about the finances of the company. She has inappropriate relationships with her authors and coworkers, which have had a negative impact on her career. She seems to have editorial talent, but that's not what it takes to run a business.

Not that Charles was good at his job (which he inherited from his father), but at least he knew enough to get the funding needed to stay in business.

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I may be the only one here, but I like Zane and I like Zane and Kelsey together. I'm hoping the show finds a way for them to become a real couple. 

I'm also hoping they find a way to get Liza back to the spunky, interesting character she was in the first few seasons. Someone else mentioned that she's become a bore, and I pretty much agree. It was also mentioned that there was finally a bit of spark between her and Charles in this episode, and I will agree that I saw that spark as well but for the most part when she and Charles are together I can't help but yawn.

The final shot of the episode gave me hope that there is something better (eventually) coming for Liza.

ETA: forgot to mention how much I'm loving Martha Plimpton in this role. She looks like she's having a ball playing Cheryl -  she was so hilariously inappropriate in Germany (Frankfurt baby!). And on a superficial note, she looks fabulous and rocked that black power suit in the opening scene of this episode.

Edited by Gothish520
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2 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

One of the things I do really love about this show is that it has made me realize that I age myself sometimes. I limit myself with what I am wearing or what I'm doing on weekends because I'm not in my 20's anymore and it doesn't feel age appropriate! This show has made me question that and re-embrace some things that I loved twenty years ago and let go when I got married and had kids. (Though I am keeping my age appropriate husband and job I worked hard for all these years, lol!)

I LOVE this! I do think there are age-appropriate clothes, but it's also important to wear things that make you happy regardless. There can be a successful middle ground.

One thing I appreciate about the show is that the men don't all run around in frat-boy clothes. Charles, Zane, even Enzo are usually immaculately tailored when called for. Josh is the only man who doesn't wear a suit regularly, but that's fine given he's a tattoo artist. (Not that a tattoo artists can't wear a great suit, of course, but you know what I mean.) It's always aggravating when the women have to put so much more effort into their appearance while the men barely need to change into a clean, collared, non-polo shirt.

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On 8/29/2018 at 5:26 PM, MissEwa said:

The Claire thing was trite and terrible though. UGH. 

That, above all else, made me not excited for next season. :-(

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3 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

Huh. That was okay, but not great.

My favorite part was when Zane told Kelsey that he was too good to stay. Or something like that. And that he had another job and he goes off with a smile. I like those twisty moments and feel like this show does that well.

Kelsey-they kind of did a number on her this season. I didn't feel like there was anything in her trainwreck of a storyline that would lead to her being put in charge of anything. I kind of hope that next season she crashes and burns, and Diana Trout steps in to save the day.

Diana-having Kelsey promoted above Diana was distasteful to me. I understand that most people think publishing=editorial but.....blergh. I want to see the competent, 40 something woman rewarded, damnit. Not that I dislike Kelsey-I just don't see how she is qualified for this. Happy to see Diana and Enzo together at the end of the season. 

Liza-should have gone to Chicky at least for a while. Martha Plimpton brought a really fun edge to the show. And she makes Diana seem soft!

Charles-so what happened to the blind item? Did it run? Curious to see where he goes next-I can see him retreating to upstate like the guy with sheep, growing a beard, and going back to the land or something 

Liza and Charles do seem like the end game, and I wanted them together but now that we've experienced it, I honestly just want Liza and Josh to get back together, have more hot sex, and lay on the couch and relax. As a 40 something, to me real work and real love with an age appropriate man is just not as fun as the fantasy of being 26 again with a 20 something hottie in love with me!

One of the things I do really love about this show is that it has made me realize that I age myself sometimes. I limit myself with what I am wearing or what I'm doing on weekends because I'm not in my 20's anymore and it doesn't feel age appropriate! This show has made me question that and re-embrace some things that I loved twenty years ago and let go when I got married and had kids. (Though I am keeping my age appropriate husband and job I worked hard for all these years, lol!)

I love this too, the whole post! Nicely put.

Whenever the subject of age as it relates to clothing, hair, etc comes up, I can't help but think of the Golden Girls - every one of those ladies, even Blanche, looked so old to me compared to women of the same age today. I am at the age that the characters supposedly were when the show first started, and they all look like they could be my mother, if not grandmother. Styles have changed so drastically since then and what is considered fashionable and appropriate for older women today has certainly loosened up, thank goodness!

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2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

One thing I appreciate about the show is that the men don't all run around in frat-boy clothes. Charles, Zane, even Enzo are usually immaculately tailored when called for. Josh is the only man who doesn't wear a suit regularly, but that's fine given he's a tattoo artist. (Not that a tattoo artists can't wear a great suit, of course, but you know what I mean.) It's always aggravating when the women have to put so much more effort into their appearance while the men barely need to change into a clean, collared, non-polo shirt.

Oh, don't get me started. I'll go out to eat somewhere, and I'll see couples where the woman is wearing a nice shirt, skirt/slacks, heels and the guy is wearing a t-shirt, cargo shorts and flip-flops. I'm fine with a t-shirt as long as it's nice and doesn't have holes or some dumb printed saying on it, but is it really too much to put on long pants and real shoes for dinner?

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4 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Oh, don't get me started. I'll go out to eat somewhere, and I'll see couples where the woman is wearing a nice shirt, skirt/slacks, heels and the guy is wearing a t-shirt, cargo shorts and flip-flops. I'm fine with a t-shirt as long as it's nice and doesn't have holes or some dumb printed saying on it, but is it really too much to put on long pants and real shoes for dinner?

The normalization of flip-flops as everyday footwear (for men AND women) is one of the worst things to happen to fashion in the last 20 years.

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i feel bad for this, but i was just so terribly distracted by charles's stilted speech patterns that i could hardly even pay attention to the trainwreck storylines.  i seriously wondered if the actor has had some kind of brain injury, and then i felt even worse for having that thought.  perhaps i just started noticing it more, but it has seemed to me that the speech problems have worsened with every passing episode.  and he will break up sentences in very odd places and i wonder how his scene partners maintain looking at him normally, with all these unnatural pauses.  and then yeah, his kiss of liza in the park was again just horrible - i do not remember the fantasy kissing scene in the office from a few seasons ago having these issues, so that's another trend i am not enjoying.  

 

i wasn't on either 'team' but was happy to go along for the ride and see where the story ended up taking liza, though i was curious about how charles and her would be if they ever got together.  i imagined that would be a pleasant thing to watch.  now i just feel like sutton foster is acting with a stiff board, and i hate myself for that.  (seriously, she must be able to act with inanimate objects standing in for people.  or perhaps her genuine caring for the actor is coming through?)

 

someone else suggested speech therapy as a solution to the stilted speaking, but if the spec that darren starr has pretty much checked out of this show is true, doubtful he or anyone is going to even notice how badly this issue needs to be addressed, much less make it happen and see that it's paid for.  

 

i wish this series hadn't become so all over the place, though, because in the early seasons i thought of it as my guilty pleasure with substance, and i could use one of those right about now.

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10 hours ago, veronicalodge44 said:

i feel bad for this, but i was just so terribly distracted by charles's stilted speech patterns that i could hardly even pay attention to the trainwreck storylines.  i seriously wondered if the actor has had some kind of brain injury, and then i felt even worse for having that thought.  perhaps i just started noticing it more, but it has seemed to me that the speech problems have worsened with every passing episode.  and he will break up sentences in very odd places and i wonder how his scene partners maintain looking at him normally, with all these unnatural pauses.  and then yeah, his kiss of liza in the park was again just horrible - i do not remember the fantasy kissing scene in the office from a few seasons ago having these issues, so that's another trend i am not enjoying.  

 

i wasn't on either 'team' but was happy to go along for the ride and see where the story ended up taking liza, though i was curious about how charles and her would be if they ever got together.  i imagined that would be a pleasant thing to watch.  now i just feel like sutton foster is acting with a stiff board, and i hate myself for that.  (seriously, she must be able to act with inanimate objects standing in for people.  or perhaps her genuine caring for the actor is coming through?)

 

someone else suggested speech therapy as a solution to the stilted speaking, but if the spec that darren starr has pretty much checked out of this show is true, doubtful he or anyone is going to even notice how badly this issue needs to be addressed, much less make it happen and see that it's paid for.  

 

i wish this series hadn't become so all over the place, though, because in the early seasons i thought of it as my guilty pleasure with substance, and i could use one of those right about now.

I assume that Peter Hermann's speech pattern is a deliberate acting choice. Charles is so buttoned up and can be quite indecisive. I think the halting speech is supposed to show his character measuring his words carefully and trying to gather his thoughts.

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11 hours ago, veronicalodge44 said:

and then yeah, his kiss of liza in the park was again just horrible - i do not remember the fantasy kissing scene in the office from a few seasons ago having these issues, so that's another trend i am not enjoying.  

 

Speaking as someone who is on Team Chemistry, and has been vocal about the kissing thing from way back, it has always been a problem with Charles from the very start, and I do mean the very start.  Having seen great kissing chemistry with her and Josh, and what I thought was good personal chemistry with Charles, I was so disappointed from the start of their kissing...I remember even telling my husband about it.  One of the earliest kisses, or maybe the first, was at the clothing store when Liza worked there temporarily, and I hoped I was wrong.  But every single kiss has confirmed it, including the one at Liza's door at that outdoor retreat (or whatever it was) and the supposedly passionate one in his office awhile back that just looked to me like a lot of frenzied action.  The recent passion scene had a lot of quick cuts and body parts etc, so that sort of made up for what was lacking when they were actually kissing.  (But I gotta say the shot of Charles' lower body with just his opened jeans was hot!)

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1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

I assume that Peter Hermann's speech pattern is a deliberate acting choice. Charles is so buttoned up and can be quite indecisive. I think the halting speech is supposed to show his character measuring his words carefully and trying to gather his thoughts.

I think you're right - his character on Blue Bloods is more assertive (or cocky) and the speech pattern is more fluid (unless his character has to falter under the Reagan glare).

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On 8/31/2018 at 10:54 AM, Heathrowe said:

Huh. That was okay, but not great.

...

Kelsey-they kind of did a number on her this season. I didn't feel like there was anything in her trainwreck of a storyline that would lead to her being put in charge of anything. I kind of hope that next season she crashes and burns, and Diana Trout steps in to save the day.

Diana-having Kelsey promoted above Diana was distasteful to me. I understand that most people think publishing=editorial but.....blergh. I want to see the competent, 40 something woman rewarded, damnit. Not that I dislike Kelsey-I just don't see how she is qualified for this. Happy to see Diana and Enzo together at the end of the season. 

Liza-should have gone to Chicky at least for a while. Martha Plimpton brought a really fun edge to the show. And she makes Diana seem soft!

 

All of this!

Kelsey - trainwreck is a good way to describe her.  She seems like she's got a lot going for her, does work hard, is widely read, is a very good editor, and is able to develop a good rapport with her writers and other people in the industry.  But then she gets drunk and goes a too far with that rapport, balling up her professional life and does not seem to have basic business sense. 

Diana - yeah, there is no way that Kelsey should have been promoted over Diana to that overall spot.  Even if Charles and the investors wanted Millennial as the flagship imprint over Empirical, Diana's experience, competency, and sense of the importance of PR and promotion should have been rewarded.  There are several ways they could structure the company and reporting relationships to make this work.    I do like the developments with Enzo, and I think Diana is the most developed character there is on this show.  Also, her being passed over in favor of Kelsey is a really odd choice given the initial premise of the show.   I'm also annoyed that Diana is the person at the company who does not know Liza's secret.

Liza - absolutely she should have gone to Chick(y) for a while.  While Cheryl Sussman is a handful, Liza's been able to work fine with Diana who was as difficult a boss as the come when Liza first started.   As long as Liza worked to do her new job, and as a result made Cheryl look good, the experience, freedom to cultivate her own group of writers/projects and not having to juggle her 20 something act constantly could have done wonders for Liza's work enjoyment/ability.   Even if the whole thing imploded after a year, Liza's career and mental state would be in a completely different state by then.  As would her bank account.  Plus - Martha Plimpton is the best.

Charles - while I've seen privately held companies that were run as badly as Empirical, until they imploded, it really is something to see how he's run this company recently.  Leaving aside how the company manages its authors, his approach to staffing, financing, partnerships and assigning projects is so so bad.  I know it's tv and they go for drama, but his business decisions are absolutely dopey.  There are about a dozen different ways he could have managed this episode's development better, for himself, for the company, and for just about all the major players.

 

I wish somehow this show could be handed off to some better writers for one more season, people who want to be bothered to map out an arc for each one that fits for that character and who wanted to tell some interesting stories for them that didn't entirely revolve around their romantic lives. Kelsey, for example, it could be interesting to explore how she responds to the pressures of her new position, whether she comes to terms with her self-sabotaging tendencies and figures out how to cultivate colleagues to manage the responsibilities of her new role that she is not capable of handling.  Or to see her start to crash and burn and see how Diana, Liza and Quinn respond.

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1 hour ago, Hannah Lee said:

Kelsey, for example, it could be interesting to explore how she responds to the pressures of her new position, whether she comes to terms with her self-sabotaging tendencies and figures out how to cultivate colleagues to manage the responsibilities of her new role that she is not capable of handling. 

I would LOVE it if the show actually treated Kelsey's self destructive behavior as what it is. I just have a fear they think it's empowering, like sleeping with every writer she comes in contact with his her way of owning her sexuality or something. That her getting drunk all the time is just her being a millennial. 

I would also love it being revealed that Diana knew about Liza's age the whole time, or at least figured it out pretty early on but never said anything because Liza was competent in her job and Diana secretly applauded Liza's ingenuity in getting a job. Bonus points if Diana propositioned Liza and Kelsey with starting their own company together. Liza's book, Younger, could be their first big hit. 

Honestly, I'd just love a show focused on an established older woman, a young just getting started woman and an older just getting started woman and how differently they have to interact with their world to be successful. I get a show needs romance to keep people watching, but I feel like their loves lives are taking priority now and it's disappointing. 

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On 8/29/2018 at 12:43 PM, EdnasEdibles said:

Even with the terrible name, I think it's a no brainer that Liza should take the other job. She could at least work there a year or two and then come back to Milennial. Everything would have worked out much better if she'd gone over there. Plus, we could have had some delightful "martha plimpton is a crazy boss" moments and then see Kelsey and Liza compete over authors. It would be great to see Liza gain even half the confidence in herself that she has in Kelsey. If they both kind of landed on equal footing career-wise but at different firms, it could take the show into a really smart direction where we have to look at whether being younger is better than being older as they compete against each other in the ever-shrinking world of publishing. The name of the show would still work but in a different way.  I can think of a number of really great plotlines that could come from them being at competing firms. Friends but also professional competitors. 

And the whole Josh fantasy was nutty. Sutton Foster and I are the same age. I do NOT want kids anymore. I also am not terribly sure I could even physically have kids anymore. Yes, I know that Brigette Nielson just had a baby and she's in her 50s. But my 43 year old body is dunzo with babies. Beating that dead horse is so silly. 

I agree that it would have been interesting to see Liza at the other company. But I think I'm misunderstanding the rest of your post. Are you saying it's silly for a 41-year old woman to have a baby? It's not what I would choose either but I wouldn't say it's silly because of my own choice. 

The character Liza is 41, (not 43 like Sutton, who is not the subject of Josh's fantasy) and she made it clear she didn't want any more children. But this is Josh's fantasy and he could have just as easily fantasized about any activity that was going to happen with Liza since she's involved with Charles. 

Not that any of this is relevant to the show but Miriam Shor (who plays Diana) gave birth to her second child a little later than Liza's show age. My own grandmother (God bless her) continued to bear children in her 40s when she already had grown children and teenagers, but I was done by 25. Of course, none of this is relevant to the show. But to each her own, right :)

Edited by love2lovebadtv · Reason: accidentally quoted twice
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On 8/29/2018 at 1:21 PM, slowpoked said:

Oh God. I'm so glad you pointed that out! Just because a woman wanted and had kids in her 20s doesn't mean she'll want and have kids at any other age! Another sign that the writers don't know what to do with Josh anymore. Because the kid issue has already been addressed by Liza earlier when they broke up, or close to breaking up - one of the reasons she didn't want to settle down with Josh was because she knew he would eventually want kids and she doesn't want to (or can't) get pregnant anymore. And she didn't want to deny him the enjoyment of being a father.

I think the show was clear that Liza didn't want any more children and didn't want Josh to miss out on parenting because of her choices. I thought this was just his fantasy and a way to introduce whats-her-name who's apparently back from Ireland and expecting. 

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On 8/29/2018 at 5:26 PM, MissEwa said:

Josh's baby dream: I don't get the outrage. He *knows* he's not going to have a baby with Liza. It doesn't stop him wanting it. That's human nature. And besides, I read it more that it made him realise that he didn't want to be a 'babydaddy' but an actual father with someone he loves, and he'd rather hold off and wait for that, whenever it happens. Liza was just there because he still has feelings for her. 

The Claire thing was trite and terrible though. UGH. 

4

OMG, thank you. He was fantasizing about having a baby with Liza. It's his desire and he knows that's not going to happen. Doesn't mean Liza wants to have a baby. She already said she doesn't. Josh knows it and so do we. 

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11 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I agree that it would have been interesting to see Liza at the other company. But I think I'm misunderstanding the rest of your post. Are you saying it's silly for a 41-year old woman to have a baby? It's not what I would choose either but I wouldn't say it's silly because of my own choice. 

The character Liza is 41, (not 43 like Sutton, who is not the subject of Josh's fantasy) and she made it clear she didn't want any more children. But this is Josh's fantasy and he could have just as easily fantasized about any activity that was going to happen with Liza since she's involved with Charles. 

Not that any of this is relevant to the show but Miriam Shor (who plays Diana) gave birth to her second child a little later than Liza's show age. My own grandmother (God bless her) continued to bear children in her 40s when she already had grown children and teenagers, but I was done by 25. Of course, none of this is relevant to the show. But to each her own, right :)

I only meant that it is silly for Liza. She doesn't really want to have one. Plus, having a baby at 41 isn't as easy and comes with more complications. If your heart is really set on having a baby, the challenges and complications are a decent price to pay.  But if your heart isn't into it (like Liza's isn't and like mine wouldn't be) you're putting your body through a lot of stuff for something you're "meh" about. A close friend of mine had a baby at 42 and she really really wanted that baby so I was happy for her so it's not that I think having a baby in your 40s is silly. But for the sake of the show and the character, I think it would be silly. 

So I worry that they're going to put the character through that next season. I know it's Josh's fantasy but there's no point to his character staying around if they don't do a weird "Could they make it?" thing with Liza once again and for the show that would just be silly and not even remotely enjoyable to watch in my opinion. 

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1 hour ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I only meant that it is silly for Liza. She doesn't really want to have one. Plus, having a baby at 41 isn't as easy and comes with more complications. If your heart is really set on having a baby, the challenges and complications are a decent price to pay.  But if your heart isn't into it (like Liza's isn't and like mine wouldn't be) you're putting your body through a lot of stuff for something you're "meh" about. A close friend of mine had a baby at 42 and she really really wanted that baby so I was happy for her so it's not that I think having a baby in your 40s is silly. But for the sake of the show and the character, I think it would be silly. 

So I worry that they're going to put the character through that next season. I know it's Josh's fantasy but there's no point to his character staying around if they don't do a weird "Could they make it?" thing with Liza once again and for the show that would just be silly and not even remotely enjoyable to watch in my opinion. 

 

You mentioned the actress by name and age so I was kinda confused. 

And there was no indication that there's a Liza pregnancy on the horizon. Liza wasn't anywhere near Josh except in his fantasy.  Right after Josh's fantasy, Claire is revealed to be pregnant. If anything, I would think Josh's plot would revolve around that. 

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I'm really surprised at the idea that Josh's dream could be taken literally with regards to next season. We will deal with a Josh as father scenario no doubt - what's-her-face showing up pregnant makes sure of that. But it requires some convoluted plotting to get what's-her-face out of the picture and Liza back in. Quite frankly I think Starr & Co have no idea what to do with Josh - his presence throughout this whole season felt tacked-on. Making him a (single) father has story-potential on its own but in the context of the show's premise it's hard to see where they want to go with it. 

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3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I'm really surprised at the idea that Josh's dream could be taken literally with regards to next season. We will deal with a Josh as father scenario no doubt - what's-her-face showing up pregnant makes sure of that. But it requires some convoluted plotting to get what's-her-face out of the picture and Liza back in. Quite frankly I think Starr & Co have no idea what to do with Josh - his presence throughout this whole season felt tacked-on. Making him a (single) father has story-potential on its own but in the context of the show's premise it's hard to see where they want to go with it. 

I think it could work, but the writers really need to come up with ways to get everyone together more often. As it stands now, it often feels like we are watching two different shows, one with a hip group of Brooklynites and one with a Manhattan publishing company. They didn't do a such a bang-up job of intertwining the two worlds this season, and I'm sure that's because of the amount of time spent on Charles and Liza's relationship. 

I find the Brooklyn side almost always interesting and fun; that is not always the case with the Manhattan side. The work stuff is usually pretty good - anytime Martha Plimpton and Miriam Shor are onscreen is a delight.  I even enjoy the Kelsey/Zane/whoever-else-is-thrown-in drama. But Charles and Liza - oy. Why do I find them so, so, SO boring together? By far the least interesting thing going on in this show right now. I'd rather watch Maggie and Malkie try to decide what to have for dinner.

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Part of me was glad that Kelsey got blindsided by the news about the party in the middle of a work meeting and then Charles spelled out exactly what happened. I like Kelsey and I don't want her to fail, but she has made a terrible habit of sleeping with clients/rivals so it seemed right that there were some consequences to her actions. Hopefully after this she will be able to keep from sleeping with her authors!

I liked Charles when he turned down editing the Devereaux book (I actually thought Kelsey finding out about that would be the beginning of Kelsey and Zane having a serious relationship) but I'm back to not liking him based on what he said to Kelsey. When he said that Millennial capsized Empirical and that she had won, he made it sound like she had been plotting for this to happen when it was all Quinn's idea. He sounded like a petulant child and a sore loser.

What are the chances that Zane's new job is the one that Cheryl offered to Liza? I think it would have been more interesting for Liza to take the Chick(y) job which would have put her on equal footing and in direct competition with Kelsey for authors (the characters on the show like to talk about how Millennial is Kelsey and Liza, but from what we've seen Kelsey gets the final say which puts her above Liza). The other interesting dimension would be how Kelsey and Liza maintain their friendship. Sometimes work friendships can be very intense while you're spending all that time together and then fizzle when one person leaves the company, and that's under normal circumstances. There would be added stress due to the two of them competing for the same authors/books. But on a practical level for a tv show, it's easier and more logical to keep Liza at Millennial/Empirical so that the main cast members are all in the same place and then they can have Zane pop in to taunt Kelsey. We've already seen how the show struggles to include Josh now that he and Liza are broken up so imagine how well they would do with having Liza separated from the rest of the main cast (plus having her work in a new office would mean hiring more people with speaking roles to be her coworkers which means spending more money).

After the way the previous episode ended (Cheryl seeing Liza come out of Charles' hotel room), I was surprised that she still offered her the job. When she gave her the contract, I thought this was all some sneaky plan to screw Liza over somehow.

OMG Diana is now adding statement earrings to her jewelry collection! I hate that Liza has told SO many people her real age but Diana is still in the dark. It seemed like a really stupid idea for her to tell Quinn the truth before the deal went through. I liked that Quinn was totally fine with it, but Liza took a huge risk telling her because Quinn could have found a way to use that information against her. I like Quinn but she is smart and ambitious so I don't think she would hesitate to use that information if she needed to.

It's hard for me to feel that bad for Charles. He willingly got involved with the lowest level assistant at his company. Regardless of her age, that's a terrible idea.

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

It's hard for me to feel that bad for Charles. He willingly got involved with the lowest level assistant at his company. Regardless of her age, that's a terrible idea.

But wasn't actually an executive at the imprint? The assistant job is supposed to be more of a side gig. Charles even told LL Moore that she'd had a big promotion since he'd last scene her.  One of the things I am looking forward to the most is that Liza is done doing any sort of assistant job. No way the story will support it. I am here for Diana having to traverse Liza as more of an equal. 

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On 9/4/2018 at 9:25 AM, Hannah Lee said:

.

 

I wish somehow this show could be handed off to some better writers for one more season, people who want to be bothered to map out an arc for each one that fits for that character and who wanted to tell some interesting stories for them that didn't entirely revolve around their romantic lives. Kelsey, for example, it could be interesting to explore how she responds to the pressures of her new position, whether she comes to terms with her self-sabotaging tendencies and figures out how to cultivate colleagues to manage the responsibilities of her new role that she is not capable of handling.  Or to see her start to crash and burn and see how Diana, Liza and Quinn respond.

I just watched the 92Y interview with Peter, Sutton , Nico and Darren. Darren admitted they had no idea what they were doing from one season to the next. It shows. At the end of the last season they filmed Liza's cell phone ringing with a call from Charles.  He went out of his way to say it was a BIG deal and we would find out what it was all about in the next season. But, the truth is, he only filmed that scene because Sutton Foster was uncomfortable with no hint of Charles and Liza in the final episode after a season of build up. And as we saw, they did not address it at all. 

I think if he had his druthers, he would have dragged Charles and Liza out another season or two. He didn't realize how upset fans (and critics) were about dropping the story until after the finale aired. I am sure the 30% demo loss in this season's opener helped too. This writing willy nilly crap hurts the quality of the show. They should at least have an outline. Or something. 

On 8/30/2018 at 8:47 AM, skotnikov said:

I bet she will give birth and go away back to Ireland, or where she is from, leaving baby to Josh, or to that lesbian couple.   

Or be deported. They could bring back the story of Liza needing to help confirm they are a real couple. But, she can't. Because of her guilt she spends time with Josh and the baby. Hence, more triangle.

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On 8/31/2018 at 2:36 PM, Gothish520 said:

I love this too, the whole post! Nicely put.

Whenever the subject of age as it relates to clothing, hair, etc comes up, I can't help but think of the Golden Girls - every one of those ladies, even Blanche, looked so old to me compared to women of the same age today. I am at the age that the characters supposedly were when the show first started, and they all look like they could be my mother, if not grandmother. Styles have changed so drastically since then and what is considered fashionable and appropriate for older women today has certainly loosened up, thank goodness!

Yes, the 80s brought us poofy hairstyles, big shoulder pads in frumpy dresses, Sophia's wicker handbag, and Dorothy's boots even when she was practically wearing an evening gown. 

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5 hours ago, traveladdie said:

But wasn't actually an executive at the imprint? The assistant job is supposed to be more of a side gig. Charles even told LL Moore that she'd had a big promotion since he'd last scene her.  One of the things I am looking forward to the most is that Liza is done doing any sort of assistant job. No way the story will support it. I am here for Diana having to traverse Liza as more of an equal. 

It would be fantastic to see that dynamic. I felt that was the next logical step in their relationship, especially since we heard her mention that she mentored Liza. 

On 9/1/2018 at 2:07 PM, MissLucas said:

I think you're right - his character on Blue Bloods is more assertive (or cocky) and the speech pattern is more fluid (unless his character has to falter under the Reagan glare).

And in that detergent commercial? Swoon. I mean boom. 

On 8/31/2018 at 1:14 PM, Lambira said:

That, above all else, made me not excited for next season. :-(

I can't stand that character. As much as I dislike when shows add characters and make them conveniently disappear without much explanation, I was glad to see her go. Lauren finally grew on me and now I have to deal with a pregnant Claire. 

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15 hours ago, traveladdie said:

I think if he had his druthers, he would have dragged Charles and Liza out another season or two. He didn't realize how upset fans (and critics) were about dropping the story until after the finale aired. I am sure the 30% demo loss in this season's opener helped too. This writing willy nilly crap hurts the quality of the show. They should at least have an outline. Or something. 

And now that they've moved to another channel ratings could be even worse, honestly. 

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21 hours ago, traveladdie said:

.And as we saw, they did not address it at all. 

The show might not have addressed that specific phone call, but it sure addressed the Liza/Charles relationship.

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On 9/15/2018 at 5:48 AM, skotnikov said:

And now that they've moved to another channel ratings could be even worse, honestly. 

A channel that a lot of people don't have or even know they have or will have to find to watch this show. I fear they are underestimating the loyalty of the audience. 

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On 9/17/2018 at 1:44 PM, traveladdie said:

A channel that a lot of people don't have or even know they have or will have to find to watch this show. I fear they are underestimating the loyalty of the audience. 

What's the channel again? 

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11 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

What's the channel again? 

 

11 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Paramount; it's a sister channel to TV Land.

You may know Paramount by its previous name, Spike. Before that it was TNN (which originally stood for The Nashville Network and then The National Network). It's been part of most basic cable packages since the 80s/90s. Their original programming includes Lip Sync Battle, The Ultimate Fighter, Ink Master, Bar Master, The Joe Schmo Show, and Yellowstone. They used to show lots of syndicated shows (Friends, Miami Vice, Ren & Stimpy, CSI, the various Star Trek shows) as well as a bunch of different wrestling shows (RAW, WWF, etc).

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14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

You may know Paramount by its previous name, Spike. Before that it was TNN (which originally stood for The Nashville Network and then The National Network). It's been part of most basic cable packages since the 80s/90s. Their original programming includes Lip Sync Battle, The Ultimate Fighter, Ink Master, Bar Master, The Joe Schmo Show, and Yellowstone. They used to show lots of syndicated shows (Friends, Miami Vice, Ren & Stimpy, CSI, the various Star Trek shows) as well as a bunch of different wrestling shows (RAW, WWF, etc).

Ah yes, I remember TNN. So this is basically a demotion, huh? I don't know if I even get that channel. 

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The current Paramount programming seems like it skews for younger viewers. TV Land viewers tend to be Gen X-ers, I guess they want to get as many types as they can.

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