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S01.E07: Falling

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50 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Holy shit! I missed that. That sounds frightening af!

 

 So when Jackie has that exchange with Vickery and she asks him how his "other girl" is, she meant Adora? Is that the extent of girls' that Vickery is perfectly happy to pretend doesnt , just Adora? Or was Jackie referencing that Amma was his daughter, or Camille? She obviously needles him about it all the time, so Im inclined to think it's just Adora, based on what we've seen with  Vicket and Adora in the past.

 

Was Amma looking for any hint that Camille suspected her in the killings, or what was she looking for on her laptop, folders, etc?

 

I cant really even comment on Patricia Clarkson's performance, she's so great. She looked really lovely in that blue outfiit, and is so creepy I can hardly stand it. There's been a wave of movies where women are poisoning people, and I really do not want to see another poisoning. It makes me nauseated to watch it.

I thought Amy Adams looked great , this episode.  Then it hit me.  She's a voracious alcoholic and yet her face never looks puffy.

It was towards the end. At first I thought she was going to kiss the baby, then her mouth opened wide, her gnashers flashing and she went in for the kill. She actually turned away as she was biting. The baby started wailing, then it showed Camille in her car driving, crying. I guess the memory just struck her. 

I took the exchange with Vickery and Jackie to mean Adora.

I think Amma came in to use Camille’s laptop because Adora took away her cell phone. The extra one, so she had nothing to communicate with her friends. The folders of the dead girls I think she just happened to notice so she had a look at them. She seemed nonchalant about them considering what they were. I was surprised she didn’t hash through them. 

I agree, Patricia Clarkson is always good. But it’s Amy Adams I’m (pleasantly) surprised with. I’ve seen her in a few movies and wasn’t particularly impressed but they were fluff movies. She has obviously just needed some good material because she’s superb in this.

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I find it interesting that Richard still put the files in Camille's car even though he wasn't feeling charitable towards her. It could be to warn her or to force her hand to set things into motion. 

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40 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Original post by Black Knight:

I

I am aware of the different definitions of the word "broken."  But in this context above, it sounds like Camille is being commented on as hopeless:

  "Someone as broken as Camille."  Camille is being talked abut as if she is irredeemably "broken." So much so that there was no good in her sleeping with John, other than a temporary itch she needed to scratch, and that she will never learn to stick up for herself (she doesnt read Dick the "riot act," for beating up on her verbally and taking out his anger and inferiority complex out on her.  she begs for forgiveness, instead, and is seen as 'weak') because she is someone who is "as broken" as she is.

If the "as broken" was in a context of her having been broken in that moment, when she was 'caught cheating' by  Dick, it probably wouldnt have sounded so disparaging of her, and so dismissive of her sleeping with John.  It's clear that John knew what was good for Camille, and Camille, knew what was good for Camille, and I cant see where either of them were at fault with that.  The fact that she begged for forgiveness from Dick after being busted in on by half a dozen cops minutes earlier, has absolutely nothing to do with the rightness of her sleeping with John.  Had Dick been as sensitive as John was, he would have realized that Camille wasnt a "slut". Didnt deserve to be called a "slut" or treated like one (again, slut is a man -made word; they dont exist). He would have been hurt, but he would have understood the trauma Camille had been through.  Dick sayingto her, "I dont think youre bad. I think youre a drunken slut," summed up his fucked up idea of what women were; not the reality.  

In rare cases, a person has sustained so much physical and/or psychic damage as to be "broken" into a psychosis, catatonia, etc. That isnt the character Camille that we see.  Just my take on it.  

I also wonder about the people, usually women and girls, who cut, or who have situations that alienate them from a general pubic that dont understand them and what they have gone, or go, through. Throwing around the word "broken" to describe people with mental illness or who have gone through trauma and have some maladaptive  or selfharming behavior is insensitive and ignorant.

 

Someone on an earlier thread mentioned that the actor who plays John had a body like a 30 year old. He definitely looks much older than 18.  I think this book and show could have done with a little scaling up of all the ages of the characters. It makes the viewer feel better to see Amy Adams with a n actor who is older than 18 (he's 23?), for sure (he even looks like he might be losing some hair up front?). But I dont think it's "gross" that Camille , who is supposed to be 28-29, is having sex with an 18 year old.  She's not taking advantage of him. The context makes sense. There's no weird power differential going on here, like you'd see with a 28-29 year old man and an 18 year old woman. And that's been portrayed in countless films over the years.

 

I too said that her reaction to Richard showed how broken she was. But I don’t think of being broken as unredeemable and not degrading or a horrible thing to say. Just that she is someone who is in pain. You see the pain on her face constantly. 

Just different takes, I guess, because I disagree about the begging for forgiveness in that particular scene. It is a sign of weakness, IMO.

Edited by ferjy
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The scene in question reminded me of Camille's talk with Amma last week. If you let boys do stuff to you, they'll like you. It felt prompted by that logic, and I'm guessing it being fresh in her mind is the reason Camille did it. At least partially. 

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8 hours ago, AEMom said:

Adora is one seriously messed up mother.

I am not 100% convinced that Alan knows that Adora killed Marian.  He strikes me as being a little bit dense.

I'm quoting my previous post and I know that many posters think that he's willfully ignorant of Adora's actions.

I can see Jackie and others feeling that nobody would believe them, but I just can't wrap my head around a parent allowing the other parent to kill their child this way. Alan does not seem so mentally damaged to allow that. If it turns out that I'm wrong in the end so be it.

Edited by AEMom · Reason: Typo
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Is there anything freakier than waking up and finding someone just sitting there watching you sleep and waiting for you to notice them? I mean, besides finding a dead girl with her teeth missing.

I didn't know whether to laugh or roll my eyes when Adora said that if Amma didn't need her to give her medicine anymore, then she was old enough to do her own laundry and clean her own room. YES, SHE IS. The fact that she is clearly old enough to do both of those things for herself yet isn't shows me how spoiled Amma is and how much Adora likes playing the kind of mother that Amma NEEDS. It does your child no good when she's old enough to sneak out of the house and get drunk but she doesn't know how to make a grilled cheese sandwich. It's literally a piece of cheese between bread. It's right up there with a bowl of cereal in things that are easy enough for kids to make.

The house turned bar complete with the kiddie porch was kind of horrifying.

The fact that Vickery was so insistent that John was the murderer and was investigating him and pursuing him yet still didn't know if he was 18 when he went to arrest him speaks volumes about the shoddy police work in Wind Gap.

Richard can fuck right off after calling Camille a slut. She's an adult and she's allowed to sleep with other adults. Sleeping with John wasn't the smartest decision for multiple reasons, but it doesn't make her a slut. Camille is ashamed of her cutting which is why she hides it. She expects people to be disgusted by it so the fact that John was not judgmental about them is what I think led Camille to let things happen. She allowed herself to be vulnerable and open to scrutiny and his non-rejection/lack of disgust made her feel like she didn't have to be ashamed.

Richard can fuck right off a second time for referring to her sister's death as "one bad thing." Yeah, it was one bad thing that fucking traumatized her during her formative years.

Add to the list of creepy things: the song over the end credits. What in the holy fuck was that creepy murder song?

9 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Last week, we saw Camille partying with the teens, not being able to say no to Amma, and this week we see her fucking John, not being able to say no. It’s like she’s regressed to her teenage self, caught under the hot spell of Wind Gap, back in her old home, squirming away from her mother’s attentions while her mother has her little sister pinned down, and everyone knows it.

The ironic thing is that Camille realized in this episode (thanks to Jackie) that she was the one who always said no to Adora (unlike Marian and Amma). So apparently she's the only one who has the nerve to say no to Adora but she can't say no to anyone else.

8 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I think the Munchausen was foreshadowed; it was the first thing that came to mind for me pretty early on in the series.

 

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Just curious, but what did you notice? It was a surprise to me, despite being an avid VC Andrews reader as a kid.

To be fair, when Corinne poisoned Cory in Flowers in the Attic, it was not MBP. She was either trying to kill the kids to ensure that her inheritance wasn't taken away (Cathy's interpretation) or trying to make the kids sick enough to smuggle them out of the house so she could tell the grandmother that they died (Corinne's version). The only other thing that was close was Tony having the cook put something in Annie's food after her accident but that was to keep her weak enough that she couldn't leave Farthy so I didn't think that was MBP (although now that I think about it, Tony loved playing the hero). And I think someone gave someone else laxatives (Kitty gave them to Heaven?) as a punishment but it didn't strike me as MBP. To be fair, I quit reading VC Andrews around Dawn or Ruby (the ghost writer got too repetitive for my taste) so if there's MBP in the books after that, I missed it all!

8 hours ago, Black Knight said:

If I remember correctly, Camille ratted out the second phone to Adora during an argument in a previous episode. (or wait, it might've been in an attempt to be helpful when Amma disappeared)

 

It was when Amma disappeared on Calhoun Day. Camille let it slip but Adora, even in her (allegedly) hysterical state was cognizant enough to remember that little tidbit. And of course she held onto that information and waited to use it later.

8 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I hated that she started begging and trying to go down on him, instead of reading him the riot act. But, sadly, it's not that surprising that she did react that way, and it shows that as much as people would like to think that her sleeping with John was healing for her, as nice as their interlude of connection was it still wasn't anything more than temporary relief.

I think it's also partly that many females, beginning in adolescence, begin to equate their worth with their sexuality. For someone like Camille who was gang raped and constantly put down by her mother, it's even less surprising that she would react to being rejected and called a slut by begging him not to go and trying to convince him to stay by attempting to go down on him.

5 hours ago, Court said:

This entire time I thought John's last time was Keane. Thanks to CC I now know it's King.

CC is often wrong. His last name is Keene. I'm pretty sure they showed the family's last name in print on Natalie's flyers and in the article that Camille wrote after the funeral.

4 hours ago, Buttless said:

I thought they said they sent the blood away to be tested. If so, they dont know it's Natalie's yet. It could still be Ashley's, from when Nat bit her ear.  Or possibly Ashley belted Natalie back, and that's how her blood got there, along with Ashley's? Either way, they will find Ashliegh's blood there, too, whihc throws a wrench in the 'John did it' theory.

In the motel room, Richard tells Camille, "They found Natalie's blood where [John]'s been living." Earlier in the episode, Vickery told Richard, "We found blood under John Keene's bed. His girlfriend gave him up....Once we get the forensics on the blood, case closed." I don't know if that means Vickery got the blood results back between the time he saw Richard at the diner and the time they arrested John or if Richard just told Camille it was John's blood to be a dick.

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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Spoilering this because it's pure speculation on my part regarding the killer. If I don't need to, I apologize and can unspoiler:

Spoiler

I don't think Adora is the girls' killer. I did for a couple episodes but now I think it's Amma, possibly with some assistance from Alan (or someone strong enough to help her move the bodies). My reasons are as follows: (1) There's been a lot of foreshadowing that the killer is a woman. Granted, that woman could be Adora, who definitely killed Marian, but the other girls don't fit with Adora's MbP diagnosis except for her overwhelming need, as Jackie described, to "help" the "lost girls."  (2) Because Natalie and Ann wouldn't let Adora help, Amma, with her horribly disordered, dysfunctional relationship with her mother, and who has also expressed her distaste for the girls and admitted she likes being sick because then Adora can take care of her, was either angry on her mother's behalf or maybe she's just become mentally ill due to her mother's abuse of her, so she handled it. (3) The most damning evidence for me that suggests Amma is the killer, however, is her bored indifference when she found Camille's crime-scene photos. Sure, she's full of bad girl bravado in front of her peers, but she was alone. She should have freaked out when she saw those pics but she didn't even blink. Why? Because she'd already seen the bodies. 

 

Also--and this is possibly unrelated--but there is something seriously creepy going on with that dollhouse. I thought it was just a visual metaphor for how young Amma truly is, but the extreme closeups and lingering camera shots in this episode suggest something deeper is going on there. I'm just not sure what.

 

If any of that is the case, IDK how they'll wrap it all up in one final ep. I've really enjoyed this show and will miss it.

Edited by acid burn
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4 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

One thing I have learnt in life is that whenever there's abuse of any kind - be it child, spousal or of another person - there are people who always ALWAYS ALWAYS KNOW.  This whole "Oh, I never knew about it because nobody talked about it" by someone close by, is absolute effing bullshit.  There's always someone who is in a position to do something, but they never do - either because they're just effing pussies, or they tried to, but were somehow blocked by someone in a higher, more influential position (which is disgraceful and horrifying - but the people who did try to do something are real heroes).  When I was getting abused, teachers at school AND church elders knew and many of them actually saw me being attacked, but Not ONE of them did anything.  No matter how sneaky or secretive or clever the perpetrator is, someone ALWAYS finds out and knows.  KNOWS.

 

3 hours ago, ferjy said:

I sat there with my mouth gaping open when Adora bit the baby (Amma) on the face to get her crying so she could say “God has given me another sick baby,” with Camille looking on through the bannisters. Another thing to screw with Camille’s mind. And crap, she (Adora) starts giving them the “blue” (bottle) medicine almost right from the start! One of those reports Camille was looking at says Amma was only 6 weeks old. 

I want to line everyone in town who enable this monster and slap them hard, including Jackie. However, the fact that the most powerful woman in town is literally getting away with murder is sadly realistic...look what happened to that poor nurse who had the courage to speak up. Rich and powerful people get away with things we regular folk could not even comprehend.

Dickie knew about the poisonings, gang rapes, and how seriously messed up this hell hole of a town is and he has the nerve to say that Camille is just milking one bad thing that happened to her to get attention? Eff you Dickie...you might think of yourself as a knight in shining armor but you are just a petty little man. Camille is a survivor.

My speculation, not a spoiler, is like the rest of you....that Amma killed the girls. I am not using this as an excuse but since it seemed like she was poisoned from babyhood, could that have to lead to brain damage that caused her to be like this? I know certain poisons like mercury and lead can lead to mental imbalance but really have little knowledge about them overall.

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Frank: "It was a bad idea to send you there."

Me: "GEE! YA THINK?!??"

What did that idiot think was going to happen?

I can see him believing he's helping her confront her past because he had no idea how extremely traumatic it was. 

 

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I still don’t see how Camille carved the words on her back.

I immediately thought that too, and could only surmise that maybe she didn't do all the cutting. She was talking with John about how his little sister bit people, including him. Maybe the carving on her back was done by her little sis as a way to vent? Maybe Camille asked her to and told her what words she wanted there?

I'm buying into two separate killers, the later one mimicking the former. And considering John's sister probably bit her ear, Ashley's as likely a suspect as anyone for that murder.

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8 hours ago, Xantar said:

The plot of the series has turned out to be so overwrought that it's difficult to take seriously. Camille lost her sister, she went into a psychiatric hospital for self-harm where her roommate committed suicide, her mother is a murdering narcissist, and she was gang-raped in high school.

(And if I'm right, she's about to discover her little half-sister is also a murdering psychopath)

You could have picked any two of those and created a great story centered around a character dealing with those issues. When you put all of them together, it just looks like you're playing Trauma Conga Line. It's unnecessary and it stretches credulity that this woman is capable of doing anything as complex as investigating a crime and writing an article about it. 

And, with the quick flashback cuts and vague timeline, it’s super-hard to piece together what she’s remembering, what happened, when, and what’s real/imagined. I feel the show has waaaaay promoted style over content. Like, I got it already. Southern gothic vibe. Now, can you tell the story already?

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The way I see it:

Adora guilty of murder (Marian) and attempted murder (Amma). Will probably be committed to a mental institution, because she is one sick person.

The other two murdered girls likely killed by the "marauding skaters" (Amma and her two friends). I can't envision Amma being strong enough to have done it alone.

Just my two cent prediction.

Edited by preeya
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3 hours ago, Buttless said:

Someone on an earlier thread mentioned that the actor who plays John had a body like a 30 year old. He definitely looks much older than 18.  I think this book and show could have done with a little scaling up of all the ages of the characters. It makes the viewer feel better to see Amy Adams with a n actor who is older than 18 (he's 23?), for sure (he even looks like he might be losing some hair up front?). But I dont think it's "gross" that Camille , who is supposed to be 28-29, is having sex with an 18 year old.  She's not taking advantage of him. The context makes sense. There's no weird power differential going on here, like you'd see with a 28-29 year old man and an 18 year old woman. And that's been portrayed in countless films over the years.

 

Amy Adams seems a bit old for her role, at 40ish, if Camille’s supposed to be in her late 20s.  She’s hardly a cub reporter, for one; I roll my eyes every time Curry calls her “cubby,” b/c she should be an established professional woman.  

 

Also so agree it’shard to see how she has cut words on her back.  

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11 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Just curious, but what did you notice? It was a surprise to me, despite being an avid VC Andrews reader as a kid.

Oh man, I don't even know particularly--just a general "hmmm..." feeling at first, probably. Maybe I'm just suspicious. But I don't recall any in-depth explanation of Marian's illness, plus, like I mentioned, she was shown in flashbacks as an apparently healthy enough kid. Also (and I may be recalling wrong in some way here--and who the hell can hear anything on this show half the time, man?), I thought Adora had, here and there, implied that she was rebuffed from caring for/coddling/fawning over Camille, plus some contemptuous tomboy comments. Then there was the refusal to allow Camille to have her freakout at the funeral. I mean, yes--most parents anywhere would want to comfort their surviving child while also preventing a big scene [particularly in this town], but it seemed more like Adora being put out that others might dare feel sorry for Camille (and Jackie's comment about Adora looking pretty at the funeral kind of supported that, to me). 

YIKES--my work computer is about to do an automatic restart for updates. Be right back... (ugh, I hate when it does this!).

OK, back now--sorry! How stupid; the thing gives me 50 notifications a day about everything under the sun--it can't do this when we first log in instead of waiting until we're involved in other stuff? Anyway...

I don't know if I have anymore to add to that, except that I love when there are other V.C. junkies around. To this day, I still read the originals when the mood strikes, and the newer ones between other, more serious books.

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Good point about the hospital. Although it sounds like Adora keeps switching doctors and if the records aren't computerized and shared, connections might not be made. I think in my state the hospital would have to call child protective services for a file that big (Amma's file, not Marion's). Or they may see her as neurotic mother who already has a dead child. I don't work in a hospital setting so Adora's disorder seems very rare to me. Maybe those of you who work in such places see it more often?

@jeansheridan Have you seen the crime doc Mommie Dead & Dearest? Check it out if you can (HBO, I think? Maybe Netflix.). This has happened, and I thought the very same things you just typed! 

Edited by TattleTeeny
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Can't find the post but someone mentioned not realizing Amy Adams could do dark drama. Check out this very good movie, Sunshine Cleaning from 2008: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0862846/

Also, I can't imagine how they're going to wrap all this up in one more episode. This is only an eight episode drama right?

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5 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

Camille is not "broken." People who have mental illnesses or problems like Camilles are not "broken."  Objects are broken  and you can toss them out. People are more resilient.\, and "broken" is such a dismissive, horrible thing to say about a person. 

I used the word "broken" in my deleted post and I did not mean that Camille is beyond repair and to be tossed out. I meant that her upbringing has harmed her. Her spirit and strength are weakened. I have described myself as broken at various points, and I've never meant that I'm beyond help; I've meant that I NEED help to be "fixed," to continue the analogy. Camille needs real, serious, long-term help because she's been done real, serious, long-term damage and harm, and the ways she copes with her pain are destructive.

Someone said they wondered about how much Gayla knows. I'd guess she knows a ton and at least suspects Adora but her job is to be barely seen and never heard, so I can't imagine that she'd ever confront Adora. The fact that she's been working there as long as she has means she's very good at keeping her head down, minding her business, and doing her work - Adora would have gotten rid of her long ago if she weren't. She might go home and talk about the people she works for the way all working people go home and talk about their bosses, but I doubt she'd make waves. Knowing what we know about Adora (not just the Munchausen's by Proxy but about how she likes her image to be just so), if Gayla were to threaten Adora's way of being, she'd be long gone. Alan too. Which I'd bet HE knows, which is why he, too, keeps his head down and his mouth shut. All is well in my big old house! Look, I'm dancing!

19 minutes ago, annlaw78 said:

Amy Adams seems a bit old for her role, at 40ish, if Camille’s supposed to be in her late 20s.  She’s hardly a cub reporter, for one; I roll my eyes every time Curry calls her “cubby,” b/c she should be an established professional woman.  

Also so agree it’s hard to see how she has cut words on her back.  

I remember the kerfuffle when Adams played Lois Lane and people were saying she was too old (I think she was 35). Others pointed out that she was supposed to be a Pulitzer-Prize-winning journalist, and that typically comes with age and experience - it would be LESS believable if they cast, like, Demi Lovato to play her and then had her talking about her Pulitzer. And now it's the reverse.

(I saw the movie Eighth Grade recently and it was actually jarring to see real kids cast to play kids - kids in all stages of puberty, kids with acne, etc. We're so used to extraordinarily beautiful 25-year-olds playing high school students. Amma is supposed to be 13 - but if you put that actress next to Elsie Fisher, who filmed Eighth Grade the summer after her own 8th grade year so she would have been 14, they look like night and day.)

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Can't find the post but someone mentioned not realizing Amy Adams could do dark drama. Check out this very good movie, Sunshine Cleaning from 2008: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0862846/

Also Nocturnal Animals. Very dark.

Edited by Empress1
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If Amma ends up being the killer, I think that’s kind of lame. For whatever her faults, we haven’t seen her be violent and the show has done a piss poor job explaining what her motive might be or how it would even be physically possible.

But whatever. The murders really aren’t that interesting and I don’t think it ultimately matters. The story of the women in this family is far more interesting.

I’m surprised that some people seem to be blaming Amma for her predicament. She’s a kid who’s been horrifically abused from infancy. I’m not sure what she is supposed to do. She’s been poisoned physically and mentally/spiritually by Adora. This episode crystallized it. For most of the series, Amma’s interactions with people have been played sinisterly, I think to put suspicion on her. But now it seems clearer to me that she’s simply been taught by Adora that all human interactions are transactional.

she wants Mama to love her, so she lets her make her sick. She wants boys to like her so she gives them sex. She wants her friends to like her so she gives them popularity, etc.

 I think this is part of the reason that a lot of her interactions with Camille were so incesty and creepy. Amma simply doesn’t understand that somebody (even her sister) might like/love her “just because”. It’s a transaction. So she probed for the price Camille wanted so Amma could getwhat she wanted.

Its really quite sad and making her the killer just erases something really interesting.

As for Camille, could she have shown some damn urgency at the end. She knows that Amma is in extreme danger but she dawdled around for how long? She left Jackie’s in daylight and arrived home in pitch darkness. It’s a small town for god sakes! Also why didn’t she cal the police (the real police or the FBI or something)? There is more than enough evidence right now to at least move Amma to protective custody while this is investigated.

 I get that Camille wants to save her herself but come on. You might literally not have a moment to waste

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10 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Speaking of Camille being bruised, I have to nitpick - has Amy Adams never bruised an ankle? Yes, one can walk on an ankle that bruised, but it would be painful and it's hard to keep from limping or otherwise trying to keep your weight off it as much as you can. When she swung her legs off the bed and put her feet down on the floor I was expecting her to at least wince. Even if she was putting on a brave face for Adora and could control her reactions that perfectly, she walks completely normally the rest of the episode too.

I noticed that too and it really bugged me a lot.  If it was a sprain, there would be no way that she could walk on it normally - I speak from too much experience.  If it's bruised because she fell and landed on it - then maybe, but just maybe.  Either way, those boots she wears would be awful - you wouldn't want anything touching that area - it would just be too painful.  That took me out of the episode several times.

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Camille is also pretty lucky she didn’t get arrested in that motel. It wasn’t statutory rape but she most certainly aided and abetted a wanted man when she knew there was an APB out for him and obstructed justice by not turning him in.

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I mustve missed where she knew they were coming after John, right at that moment. But if she did know, she also knew the area a bit, and they were in the Mexican part of town, it looked like. Why would Mexican workers call th ecops on John, even f it was broadcast? No reason to do it, unless maybe there was a reward out for capture, wich I dont recall them mentioning.

Well, the whole town seemed to be aware that the cops were about to arrest him, so being seen in broad daylight inside town limits in with him in any capacity is risky. Not sure why there's "no reason" a Mexican worker wouldn't contact the police without a reward though--"concern about the murders of young girls" is a logical reason.

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I immediately thought that too, and could only surmise that maybe she didn't do all the cutting. She was talking with John about how his little sister bit people, including him. Maybe the carving on her back was done by her little sis as a way to vent? Maybe Camille asked her to and told her what words she wanted there?

After seeing the flashback of Adora rubbing Camille's back, I'm assuming Adora put those words there.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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12 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Well, the whole town seemed to be aware that the cops were about to arrest him, so being seen in broad daylight inside town limits in with him in any capacity is risky. Not sure why there's "no reason" a Mexican worker wouldn't contact the police without a reward though--"concern about the murders of young girls" is a logical reason.

Not if they're undocumented. There are lots of stories right now about immigrants not reporting crimes or seeking help because they don't want to be in law enforcement's orbit. 

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Not if they're undocumented. There are lots of stories right now about immigrants not reporting crimes or seeking help because they don't want to be in law enforcement's orbit. 

Fine--fair point (and I don't blame them one bit in this recent climate!). But they could do it anonymously, or have a friend do it? And also, if they are undocumented, the town's LEO probably already know that. Further, if that was the reason, why would the possibility of a reward mitigate the risk of an undocumented status being found out? That would possibly make it riskier still.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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9 hours ago, izabella said:

I'm trying to piece together some clues that don't fit with Amma being the girls' killer. Natalie's blood was found under the bed in the house John is living in. 

I don’t think it has been established that that was Natalie’s blood. 

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Besides Camille's emotional state, she also makes risky decisions because she's always intoxicated.  Even if she's "functional" and can maintain herself, she's still drunk.  She reacts more than decides.  She and John were both drunk when they decided to go to a motel in a small town in broad daylight.

I think different people killed Ann and Natalie.  Natalie is the one with the history of crazy violence (stabbing a kid in the eye with a pencil, biting people including her own brother).  So maybe Natalie killed Ann.  I think Ashley killed Natalie out of jealousy, revenge, and for her own deranged goal of popularity.  Earlier, they made mention of how people made fun of John for his close relationship to Natalie, and "secret urges" and weird things they would say about him.  Maybe Ashley thought she could get rid of Natalie and then John would be all hers and he wouldn't have the bad PR of Natalie being his sister.  Since Ann was killed, she could make it look like she was just another victim.  And she's since tried to take complete control over John, in his grief.

This doesn't quite add up, but I can see Ashley as the one with the motive for Natalie's murder, plus the blood was in her house, and she knew about it.

There still has to be more to it than that, because of the physical requirements.
As the Big Lebowski would say, there's a lot of ins, and lot of outs, in this case.

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5 hours ago, Buttless said:

 

Someone on an earlier thread mentioned that the actor who plays John had a body like a 30 year old. He definitely looks much older than 18.  I think this book and show could have done with a little scaling up of all the ages of the characters. It makes the viewer feel better to see Amy Adams with a n actor who is older than 18 (he's 23?), for sure (he even looks like he might be losing some hair up front?). But I dont think it's "gross" that Camille , who is supposed to be 28-29, is having sex with an 18 year old.  She's not taking advantage of him. The context makes sense. There's no weird power differential going on here, like you'd see with a 28-29 year old man and an 18 year old woman. And that's been portrayed in countless films over the years.

Since I was the one who used the descriptor “gross”, I’ll hop in here.

First, we don’t know Camille’s real age, it’s never stated, but i thought she was older. Like mid thirties. 

Second, I don’t think the age of the actors has any bearing on the characters except visuals, which is how we’ve become so desensitized to the sexualizing of young people, especially girls, because in the media, often we see adults playing these teens. That isn’t a positive. If they had to have an adult playing a teenager so the audience wouldn’t really see a teenage face and body in that scene, that says something else.

Third, the double standard argument doesn’t work for me because I absolutely think it’s just as gross to see adult men waiting on the barely legal girls and I’ve always hated that trope(and that reality). So i’m going to apply that to Camille as well. You can’t say there is no power dynamics at play when “teen” is still part of a person’s age. There are. 

Finally, I get the narrative, i get the dynamics, I get how Camille regressed here and how she can more directly relate to this damaged teen than maybe someone her own age, because there’s a part of her that’s been trapped in time in this town, this house, and is the part of her that needs the most healing and understanding for the adult Camille to actually move forward. I get that her revealing her scars and not being rejected was a narratively very important and strong moment for Camille. I get all of that.

But i still can find it gross that an adult found that healing and truth by having sex with a grieving teenage boy. 

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3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Add to the list of creepy things: the song over the end credits.

It was in Raising Arizona. I recognized it immediately because that's what Holly Hunter's character sings to Nathan, Jr. ("he's just having a nightmare"). I'm sure it's an old folk song but some are really creepy and devastating ("Pretty Polly" as sung by Patti Loveless is amazing). 

I've never been one to figure out a mystery - I get caught up in the story. But I did get the sense a few episodes back that Adora probably made Marian sick to the point that she either deliberately killed her or her actions resulted in Marian's death. However, I'm not buying that Adora killed Anne and Natalie. It would not surprise me if Amma was the culprit for one or both. I think the show has done a good job of establishing that Amma is a little psychopath (she's mean as a snake and her "apologies" ring false and are tools she uses to manipulate people like Camille). 

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39 minutes ago, Ruprecht said:

. But I did get the sense a few episodes back that Adora probably made Marian sick to the point that she either deliberately killed her or her actions resulted in Marian's death.

I was also thinking maybe she never meant to actually kill Marian, she wanted to keep her sick and dependent, but she accidentally took it too far.  But in this episode, when Amma started pressing Adora about what she thought she'd be when she grew up, and how Adora refused to even discuss the idea of Amma growing up...there's only one way to stop her from doing so.

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2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I remember the kerfuffle when Adams played Lois Lane and people were saying she was too old (I think she was 35). Others pointed out that she was supposed to be a Pulitzer-Prize-winning journalist, and that typically comes with age and experience - it would be LESS believable if they cast, like, Demi Lovato to play her and then had he

 

I don’t know if the source material provided an age for Camille. If so, and if it is “late 20s” as someone has suggested, I just think casting a well-known actress who is in her 40s changes things.  At that point, Camille has been away from home/Adora longer than she was at home.  I think that tells a different story than someone who is ten years or less out from under Adora’s thumb.  Both can be interesting, but they are different.  

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12 hours ago, annlaw78 said:

I don’t know if the source material provided an age for Camille. If so, and if it is “late 20s” as someone has suggested, I just think casting a well-known actress who is in her 40s changes things.  At that point, Camille has been away from home/Adora longer than she was at home.  I think that tells a different story than someone who is ten years or less out from under Adora’s thumb.  Both can be interesting, but they are different.  

It does -

Spoiler

she's 30 in the book. Amma is 13. If Amy Adams is playing at or near her age (43) and Amma is 13, she wouldn't even KNOW Amma. Wouldn't have met her. Amma would have been born long after Camille was gone and we know they're not the kind of family that reunites regularly for holidays and long weekends. Camille said something like that in an earlier episode, something like "I wouldn't have recognized you, Mama stopped sending pictures." If Adams is playing 30, that's not particularly believable but at least she'd have been at home for a year or so when Amma was born. 

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8 hours ago, ferjy said:

I sat there with my mouth gaping open when Adora bit the baby (Amma) on the face to get her crying so she could say “God has given me another sick baby,” with Camille looking on through the bannisters. 

I remember this scene, but completely missed Adora BITING HER BABY!  WTF?!?  Would rewatch to verify, but now I'm 100% disturbed.

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6 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

If Amy Adams is playing at or near her age (43) and Amma is 13, she wouldn't even KNOW Amma. Wouldn't have met her. Amma would have been born long after Camille was gone and we know they're not the kind of family that reunites regularly for holidays and long weekends. Camille said something like that in an earlier episode, something like "I wouldn't have recognized you, Mama stopped sending pictures." If Adams is playing 30, that's not particularly believable but at least she'd have been at home for a year or so when Amma was born. 

I thought that Camille was supposed to be mid-thirties and that she and Amma are about 20 years apart in age.  However, when you saw Camille sitting on the staircase watching Adora holding baby Amma and biting her, there is no way that Camille is 20 at that time, maybe around 16 at most?

AA is beautiful, but she looks no younger than mid-thirties.  If she is supposed to be only around 30 in this show, then the casting is a little messed up.

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This was finally an episode with PLOT! Thank heavens.

With as much as Camille drinks, I wouldn't put it past her to be able to walk on a swollen ankle without feeling much. Also, if Adora came at me with poison, I'm thinking a large dose of adrenaline would kick in. And then you really wouldn't have pain.

Camille's "arrested development" was highlighted brilliantly in this episode. It's sad that we are seeing a healthy, fully consensual encounter with an 18-year-old. But maybe not. Maybe grief has no age boundaries. Their scenes were beautiful. It is so healthy, so necessary, so important for Camille to feel "seen."  And he had no issues accepting all her scars on the inside or outside. Camille craves a real connection and it seems the only people she can get that with are teenagers. Weird, but it makes a lot of sense. She stopped maturing in her tracks as a teen.

Compare that to the hiding game she plays with Richard, and I didn't even feel that sorry for him when he found her there. He was digging up info on her from medical professionals instead of asking her about her life over dinner. I just can't get in line with that. And the "slut and drunk" comments were classic "nice-guy" statements, from a jerk who calls himself a nice guy but wishes he had the looks or nerve to be a "bad boy." What a dunce.

I wish we'd seen the blue vial earlier in the show. Maybe we did. I would have to go back and look. 

Amma's little dollhouse is the only place she has control in that house. No one can touch because she's constantly under Adora's gaze and needs to find a measure of control. I cannot imagine a kid playing along while her mother makes her sick. No effing words. Alan doesn't know everything, but he knows enough. He seems the type who doesn't want the ipecac turned on his evening drink, so he looks the other way. I'd say he's weak, but it seems everyone is weak under Adora's power.

One truly terrifying moment in the episode, which I only caught on a quick rewatch, was in the first few minutes when Adora tried to force medicine and "care" on Camille. As Camille made her way to the bathroom, she quickly closed the bathroom door, which had a mirror on the front. Upon closure, we got a quick flash of Amma standing in the doorway. I actually jumped sky high. It was reminiscent of "Paranormal Activity" or something like that. It was the only time I've had such a reaction in the series.

I love the oldies music that accompanied many scenes from Vickery's car. I grew up with parents who were older than those of my peers, and the only music I knew until I was 10 was doo wop. That music perfectly encapsulates the town of Wind Gap. The tones are sweet and reminiscent of a bygone era that was seemingly simpler. However, if you listen closely to the lyrics, there's something sinister happening in those songs. Wind Gap is a walking Ricky Nelson tune. The closing song was a home run for this ep. Listen to Nelson's version of "Last Kiss" - you'll realize that the Pearl Jam version is easier to digest. Out of a voice that's beautiful and innocent comes something horrifying and devastating. It's not as sweet as it sounds on first listen.

The actor who plays John Keene was brilliant this episode. He's just been a lurking string bean for much of this show, but I couldn't take my eyes off him tonight. The scene with Camille at the bar was an Emmy reel for Best Supporting Actor, in my opinion.

There are some fine details here beyond the random words. For example, I love that the sweat stain on the back of Dick's shirt just kept getting bigger as the episode progressed. 

I wish we'd had 6 episodes that contained this level of urgency and dread. I don't know how they're wrapping this up next week. I hope it's a 90-minute episode. 

Edited by thesupremediva1
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Re: character ages

I have no problem buying Amy Adams as mid-30s. I don't think Eliza Scanlen looks anywhere near 13. I've always interpreted her in this TV series as something like 16. Even 13-year olds who start puberty early don't look as developed as Eliza Scanlen. 

And I think for the purposes of this story, that's all fine. A mother infantilizing a 16-year old is different from a 13-year old but it's still creepy. 

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34 minutes ago, AEMom said:

I thought that Camille was supposed to be mid-thirties and that she and Amma are about 20 years apart in age.  However, when you saw Camille sitting on the staircase watching Adora holding baby Amma and biting her, there is no way that Camille is 20 at that time, maybe around 16 at most?

AA is beautiful, but she looks no younger than mid-thirties.  If she is supposed to be only around 30 in this show, then the casting is a little messed up.

Yep. In that scene on the stairs, Camille is in her cheerleading uniform, I believe. Plus last week, when she was talking to those boys in the car, one of them mentioned his mom was 34 and Camille said that she must've been before her (Camille's) time.

I'm okay with AA's casting. After all, Camille is an alcoholic, which tends to age people. Not that I think Amy Adams looks "aged." She and I are the same age - I wish I looked as young as her!

 

34 minutes ago, AEMom said:

I thought that Camille was supposed to be mid-thirties and that she and Amma are about 20 years apart in age.  However, when you saw Camille sitting on the staircase watching Adora holding baby Amma and biting her, there is no way that Camille is 20 at that time, maybe around 16 at most?

AA is beautiful, but she looks no younger than mid-thirties.  If she is supposed to be only around 30 in this show, then the casting is a little messed up.

Yep. In that scene on the stairs, Camille is in her cheerleading uniform, I believe. Plus last week, when she was talking to those boys in the car, one of them mentioned his mom was 34 and Camille said that she must've been before her (Camille's) time.

I'm okay with AA's casting. After all, Camille is an alcoholic, which tends to age people. Not that I think Amy Adams looks "aged." She and I are the same age - I wish I looked as young as her!

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24 minutes ago, Xantar said:

Re: character ages

I have no problem buying Amy Adams as mid-30s. I don't think Eliza Scanlen looks anywhere near 13. I've always interpreted her in this TV series as something like 16. Even 13-year olds who start puberty early don't look as developed as Eliza Scanlen. 

And I think for the purposes of this story, that's all fine. A mother infantilizing a 16-year old is different from a 13-year old but it's still creepy. 

This is a conversation from episode 5:

On 06. 08. 2018. at 12:33 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Camille: You were friends [with Ann and Natalie], right? You used to hang out with them?
Amma: Not that much. I mean, like, a million years ago. Seventh grade.
Camille: That was like a year ago.

So 13 isn't out of the realm of possibility.

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Yeah, I get that Amma is supposed to be 13. I'm just saying that buying Eliza Scanlen as a 13-year old strains credulity for me way more than Amy Adams as a woman in her 30s. 

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5 minutes ago, Xantar said:

Yeah, I get that Amma is supposed to be 13. I'm just saying that buying Eliza Scanlen as a 13-year old strains credulity for me way more than Amy Adams as a woman in her 30s. 

I think it’s deliberately ambiguous. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that Camille forgot how old Amma was or lost track of what grade she was supposed to be in.

She didn’t even recognize her at first in Episode 1.

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14 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Was Camille undressed long enough for Richard to see the cuts on her legs? Maybe he was too butt hurt to notice.

l thought it was unnecessary for Richard to call Camille a slut. That said, if he had feelings for her,  he might be lashing out, but he wasn't all that forthcoming with her otherwise. I'm conflicted about it.

Years ago there was a series called QB7 and I vividly recall a woman saying "I don't know what the male equivalent of a slut is, but that is what you are." I still don't think there is a word for it.

The Munchhausen's crossed my mind the first time I saw the little home hospital bed and everyone was so coy about what Marion's sickness actually was. Forgot about it when Amma didn't seem all that physically sick. Girl has some problems as deep as Camille's.

They call the men Studs.

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4 hours ago, Dminches said:

I don’t think it has been established that that was Natalie’s blood. 

A number of people here are saying this, but I don't understand why.  The sheriff tells Richard that Ashley showed them where the blood was, and they were getting it tested to see if it was Natalie's.  Richard later tells Camille that they found Natalie's blood at John's place after they arrest John.  

Why would Richard lie about that?  Especially since they had no other evidence on John to arrest him if the blood hadn't come back yet as Natalie's.  They didn't bring John in for questioning - he was arrested.  They couldn't arrest him until they had the blood results, because it could have been anyone's blood, even John's from a nosebleed or something.

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I can't think of anything more insulting for Richard to have said to Camille. "This room f**cking stinks of you. Believe me I know the smell."

The song at the end was so perfect. A haunting melody with a story as horrifying as the show. If anyone is interested in the musicality: http://acousticguitar.com/play-the-traditional-song-down-in-the-willow-garder/

And as sung by The Everly Brothers:

You really can't blink in this show. The memory flashbacks are sometimes literally the blink of an eye. Adora biting her baby, The "medicine" being administered in the past.

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1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Upon closure, we got a quick flash of Amma standing in the doorway. I actually jumped sky high. It was reminiscent of "Paranormal Activity" or something like that. It was the only time I've had such a reaction in the series.

I think that was Marion. Ghost Marion pops up in the mirror. Not that I have any hopes she'll DO anything. It's not that kind of show.

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15 minutes ago, Beezella said:

I can't think of anything more insulting for Richard to have said to Camille. "This room f**cking stinks of you. Believe me I know the smell."

I didn't hear the you bit. I only heard the room stinks and he knows that smell. I gathered he was talking about the smell of sex.

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5 hours ago, Empress1 said:

(I saw the movie Eighth Grade recently and it was actually jarring to see real kids cast to play kids - kids in all stages of puberty, kids with acne, etc. We're so used to extraordinarily beautiful 25-year-olds playing high school students. Amma is supposed to be 13 - but if you put that actress next to Elsie Fisher, who filmed Eighth Grade the summer after her own 8th grade year so she would have been 14, they look like night and day.)

Also Nocturnal Animals. Very dark.

I'm fine with 18/19-year-olds playing 13-year-old characters, if they look youthful enough.  There are people who still pass for that age, because they're petite and look very young.  But the actual actors playing the 13-year-olds are adults, so that's why I can accept it.  When they get actual kids playing traumatic roles, it really concerns me.  A lot of non-English-speaking movies still do this, because it's not as PC in foreign films.  There was a Korean movie called The Crucible which involved child abuse and they weren't youthful-looking adult actors, but were actual children.

 

Look at this lady.  She looks really young.

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1 hour ago, candle96 said:

Yep. In that scene on the stairs, Camille is in her cheerleading uniform, I believe. Plus last week, when she was talking to those boys in the car, one of them mentioned his mom was 34 and Camille said that she must've been before her (Camille's) time.

Okay, the show totally blew it by putting her in the uniform (which I didn't notice). Because I thought Camille made a rare joke with the boy regarding her age (like yeah, she's actually 34 so she IS his mom's age and this horrifies her so she lies/jokes that his mom was before her time). Because I can buy that college-aged Camille came home to meet the new baby. Are you absolutely sure she was in her uniform? 

Then again, does it really matter? Shows often mess up the ages of character and cast the wrong ages. Adams has been excellent in this. I would hate for her to have missed out on this role just because she is 10 years too old. The script might have been fixed a bit to give her more coverage, but all the emotions and damage make sense regardless if the character is 30 or 34 or 40 for that matter. Is having sex with an 18 year old better if she's 30? Probably not. 

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Quote

I don't think Eliza Scanlen looks anywhere near 13. I've always interpreted her in this TV series as something like 16. Even 13-year olds who start puberty early don't look as developed as Eliza Scanlen. 

I think she looks pretty 13-ish when she's at home, especially in the big bed wearing a fluffy nightgown.

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5 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Then again, does it really matter? Shows often mess up the ages of character and cast the wrong ages. Adams has been excellent in this. I would hate for her to have missed out on this role just because she is 10 years too old. t. 

She's one of the producers, so this is a project she sought out to star in.  She looks young for her age, and the character is messy and rough, and I think they've purposely left it sort of vague as to what her exact age is, so it works. 

I agreed with a poster on an earlier episode that the music choices are sort of irksome, as kids wouldn't be listening to some of the music, etc.  But now I think it sort of plays into the surrealism of the setting, and the discomfort it provokes, as does in a dream.   Others have commented about how we're seeing how Camille is emotionally stunted, left in her teen years.  Meanwhile Amma is trying to grow up and is being forced to remain childlike.  Boundaries are blurred, timelines are blurred, ages are blurred.  Just sort of adds to the creepiness.  Time has sort of stopped in Wind Gap, or has its own quality, like it's under a spell.

The director of the movie It Follows, put modern and vintage elements together in a way that didn't quite make sense, which he said helped create that feeling of unease for the viewer, as in a dream.  When is this, where is this?  I feel this is similar, even if it wasn't intentional.

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11 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I didn't hear the you bit. I only heard the room stinks and he knows that smell. I gathered he was talking about the smell of sex.

He definitely said, "of you." I'm not surprised. Even though she bathes, she is wearing all of that dark, covering clothing in 100 degree heat. Also, why can't Richard wear something other than a long-sleeved shirt? I mean, even a polo for goodness' sakes!

As much as I despise what Richard said to her, I thought Chris Messina did an great job in that scene because even though Richard is 100% an ass for what he said, I could tell that Richard still actually cares about Camille. That scene was painful to watch.

This is also Amy Adams' best episode. I don't blame her for running out from Jackie. She knew, and she didn't do anything to stop it. 

I found this episode to be quite haunting and chilling. 

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5 minutes ago, Schmolioot said:

Something interesting that the show hasn’t dwelled on but is interesting nonetheless is how Wind Gap is kind of a town out of time. It’s almost a feudal lordship.

There don’t seem to be any democratic institutions. No Mayor or city council that we’re shown (and usually the small town mayor is a character in stories like this). Somebody is paying Vickery and the deputies but Adora seems to have the power to fire him herself.

The town has internet but it’s nowhere near as central or ubiquitous as it should be in 2018. No one has mentioned checking the murdered girls social media. We’ve seen a lot of teenagers getting together and no one has mentioned Instagram or Twitter. Camille has followed Amma to a hog farm but has never appeared to have considered checking her Facebook to see what she’s been up to. Ashley mentions wanting to be in the paper several times but no girl her age would care about that. They want to be viral.

In fact, I’m pretty sure that the only place we’ve seen a television was at the wine mom’s house where they were watching beaches. We’ve seen several teenagers rooms and I don’t  recall seeing a single tv, computer or video game. Stuff almost all kids have at least one of now.

Moreover, the citizens don’t seem to make use of any service beyond the borders of the town. All Jackie had to do to help was make one call to child protective services. Wind Gap May be an insulated community but they’re part of a county and state where there are laws and departments and bureaucracies that are there to handle these situations. But she doesn’t even seem to have considered this bare minimum step

Its just very odd and I wish it had been explored more

Wide use of modern media would probably ruin the claustrophobic mood the show is going for. That said, I think the kid who saw the Woman in White taking Ann was watching TV, and Amma's peers were sharing Camille's first article via social media, which pissed Amma off, because she was the last to know. 

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