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OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales: Compare & Contrast

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If Peter Pan was in the book, then Henry would have recognized him.  It's just hit and miss and convenience what's in the Book.  So the Winged Monkeys were in the Book, but not Zelena?  Wonderland was in the book, but not Neverland?  I don't think Henry's book follows the traditional version of the tale, since it had all the untraditional elements of the Snow White story.  

Edited by Camera One
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Yes, The Book is problematic.

Maybe this should be posted in the "Wishful Thinking" thread, but part of me wants the very last episode of the series to be the end of Operation Mongoose and have Regina and Henry find the author of the Book and it's.... the writers of OUAT. They've all been characters in one giant fairytale all along, Truman Show style. Supermeta all over the place.

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So with all this new Peter Pan talk, I've been thinking (I know) and I wonder if there is any significance that out of all the fairytales and stories they've covered so far, I think Pan is the only "hero" of a story who turned out to be a villain.

That's just because OUAT's Captain Hook is one of the good guys, so Pan had to be bad.

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This one is a bit better.  I like Cate Blanchett but I wish the evil stepmother looked more similar to the one in the animated movie.  She was just pure evil.  Too bad "Once" didn't care about using her as a villain.

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Indeed, it is.

Another one of the articles from BMJ Christmas edition getting into the news. Sweet. If anyone is interested, here the original

And just in case: Scientists do have humor ;-)

Edited by katusch

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I am really hesitant to let my daughter watch Snow White. The evil queen dressed up as the hag is really scary when you think about it.

On another note, on The 100 tonight (major spoilers ahoy), a character was forced to suffer the consequences of killing a bunch of innocent people. He went through some major character development that led to him killing all the people. And then he had to die.

Just saying.

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Honestly I feel like it's good for the children. They're gonna have to deal with that stuff eventually. It's relatively minor scary/violent stuff.

Actually, I feel like it's the animals that terrify me more than the violence. Monstro still terrifies me (actually, the whole Pinnochio movie terrifies). Every time I see a dead deer I think of the poor bambi who is probably calling for its mother or father just like in the movie. The vultures were insanely freaky in Snow White, the barracuda was terrifying i Finding Nemo, Floatsom and Jetsom (probanly spelled them wrong) creeped me out more than Ursula being skewered. The siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp...

Yes, the creepy animals scarred me much more than any of the violence or other supposedly mind-scarring stuff. Life goes on for me however.

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Monstro absolutely terrified my little toddler self. When I was older (old enough that this was ridiculous instead of mean), McDonald's or Burger King was giving out inflatable Monstros with their Happy/Kids' Meals and my dad used to chase me around with it.

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Monstro still terrifies me (actually, the whole Pinnochio movie terrifies).

I was also terrified of Monstro. I had one of those "the story and the songs" records for Pinocchio (what we had in the Dark Ages before home video), and when the story got to that part, I always hid under the bed. I only got through that part when I finally saw the actual movie because I was with my best friend, who knew nothing about the story, so I was bracing myself and watching how he reacted. I got a lot of amusement out of the fact that I at least acted cool while he freaked out (mind you, we were four).

 

The Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp wigged me out, too. But I don't recall being bothered by the human villains. It does help that most of my exposure to Disney movies was those records and the storybooks that came with them, so I didn't really have visuals other than the pictures. When I did see the movies either on television or when they did the occasional re-release, the way it looked onscreen never was quite as horrible as what I'd imagined, so the movies themselves weren't that scary to me.

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I jus watched Grimm's Snow White (2012) on Netflix.

I don't know what to think of it. Instead of dwarves there magic elves, Snow White was blonde...blonde!!! Actually, she looked more like Alice from Wonderland. There were also giant lizards that ate people and had no plot importance whatsoever. The CGI was definitely worse than Once's.

I was the most shocked at when Snow White lopped the evil queen's head off. I wasn't expecting that. I feel guilty because I laughed when it happened, but because they did it in that horrid cgi. It looked so fake. It would have looked more believable if they had just painted a face on a basketball.

Never thought I'd be so thankful for Once's CGI.

Also, a long time ago (on Netflix), I watched this cartoon/CGI/non-disney version of The Snow Queen (which came out before Frozen did). I think it was a more accurate telling o the story than Frozen was. And I actually cheered a few times, you know, like when you really get into the cheesy Hallmark movies. I've seen worse, so I thought whoever made the movie did a decent job with the small budget they most likely had. They at least incorporated the mirror into this version.

It makes me remember that I'm still really happy A&E incorporated the mirror into their Frozen story. It also makes me sad because it makes me ponder about them changing things mid-story. The mirror first introduced in 4x06 seemed far more evil/dark than when we see it's magic in 4x10.

Anyways, just thought I'd share my thoughts.

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I was just watching one of those Hallmark Christmas movies OnDemand (one of my holiday season guilty pleasures), and this one was a modern updating of A Christmas Carol, with the "Scrooge" being an uptight female publishing executive. I wasn't watching too closely, just listening, because I was knitting and just started a really complicated lace pattern that's not established enough yet to be obvious and automatic, but she was giving me serious Regina vibes with her vocal inflections and intonation and her general attitude toward life and the people around her. That got me started daydreaming what would happen if Regina got the Scrooge ghost treatment, but then I realized that we actually have had her past and present, where she's presented as a victim rather than as having made wrong choices. The Author could show her the future, which wouldn't require her to actually repent and change all that much. But it was still a fun mental rabbit trail to imagine how it would be done if writers who could be objective about Regina were telling the story.

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On another note, on The 100 tonight (major spoilers ahoy), a character was forced to suffer the consequences of killing a bunch of innocent people. He went through some major character development that led to him killing all the people. And then he had to die.

Just saying.

 

Funnily someone compared him to Neal in TVLine's (I think?) comments. I was perplexed. Neal's death was so badly done compared to this one! And also, guys, watch The 100. It grew from a somewhat standard CW fare (but with a post-apocalyptic bend) in s1 to a pretty fun and interesting show in s2. Probably one of the two shows I'm invested in the most at this moment (along with Homeland).

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So is anyone going to go see Into The Woods?

 

I really hope to. Of course I'll probably just be unjustifiably comparing it to Once the whole time! It'll be the musical episode I've always wanted. ;)

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I am definitely seeing Into the Woods. It's one of my favorite musicals, and I have the DVD of the original cast that was on PBS in the early 90s. My mom and I are talking about going the day after Christmas while I'm still at my parents' house. If not, then I'll see it when I get home. I'm just a little nervous about the singing, since they've only shown Meryl Streep in the trailers. I'm kind of a snob about that sort of thing, since I'm a singer. I don't know that I'd say I have perfect pitch -- I'm not one of those people who can name a note when it's played or who can just sing a particular note out of the blue -- but I do have a good enough ear that it's physically painful when someone is off-pitch, and it also bothers me when the technique is really bad, so movie musicals can be an issue for me.

 

I think I wanted Once Upon a Time to be more like Into the Woods, but it's missed the boat for the potential inherent in exploring what happens after the happily ever after.

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I would like to go see it, but it'll probably have to wait until it gets to the Plaza a few months later when it's much cheaper. Or rent it. We only go to a movie theatre once or twice a year because of the outrageous prices nowadays, and we'll probably go see The Hobbit, so Out of the Woods will probably have to wait :(.

Edited by HoodlumSheep

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I'll probably end up seeing "The Hobbit" too.  I tend to only watch about one movie a year.  I still plan to watch "Maleficient" on DVD at some point.  Maybe before 4B so I could participate in comparison discussions.

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I was going to go see it, but I listened to a review and now I'm not sure. I didn't realize that it is mostly all musical. I can take a few songs like in Frozen, but a whole movie's worth may be too much. I'll probably wait for the dvd.

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I was reading this interview about "Into the Woods":

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-stephen-sondheim-meryl-streep-into-the-woods-20141214-story.html#page=2

 

Marshall: What's so interesting about the Cinderella tale in this one is ... she chooses to run home each night to an abusive home. ... Steve and James took that and then created this character who couldn't make a decision about where she wanted to be.

 

It's such a shame A&E had little to no interest in Cinderella as a character, and used her as a throwaway one-off.

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So is anyone going to go see Into The Woods?

 

 

I'll probably see it on Saturday.  My mom is a HUGE Sondheim fan (actually, she kind of petite, but you know what I mean), so I'll see it when I go up to visit her this weekend.

 

I was going to go see it, but I listened to a review and now I'm not sure. I didn't realize that it is mostly all musical. I can take a few songs like in Frozen, but a whole movie's worth may be too much. I'll probably wait for the dvd.

 

Sondheim "musicals" aren't like Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals.  The songs carry meaning and depth, much more than tune (try whistling any Sondheim tune from "Sunday in the Park with George" or "Assassins"!) so it's a whole different experience.

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I was watching some trailers to find out more about "Into the Woods" on Youtube, and I ended up watching one of the stage productions of it.  

 

I was expecting the story to be really well written, but I'm not sure what to think of it.  The first Act was mostly comical, and had some interesting crossovers.  The second Act was a total mess, though.  I suppose it's tough to do character development in a musical in some ways, but characters just did random stuff and then sung about lessons which were difficult to take seriously.  I'm curious about how they adapted this into a film, but I don't know how they could make it into a coherent movie with actual payoff, since there wasn't any, and the characters felt ambiguous even after 2 hours +.

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Camera One, which production did you watch? Was it the one with Bernadette Peters and the original Broadway cast? Because I know the more recent revivals changes some things which may have affected your enjoyment.

 

I love, love, Into The Woods. One of the big themes is that actions and choices have consequences we may not foresee. And I adore how they do the witch. It's not "Oh she's just misunderstood." She actually is a pretty terrible person, and that is acknowledged, but she is allowed to call out the 'heroes' in turn, and make some valid points.

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And I adore how they do the witch. It's not "Oh she's just misunderstood." She actually is a pretty terrible person, and that is acknowledged, but she is allowed to call out the 'heroes' in turn, and make some valid points.

Witches can be right, giants can be good ...

 

I linked to an essay about morality and Into the Woods in the morality thread because it's such a sharp contrast with Once Upon a Time's wonky morality.

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I just checked and it was the Bernadette Peters one. 

 

I appreciated the cleverness and the humor, and maybe even the concept, but I didn't find the follow-through on the emotional and thematic elements convincing.

The "giants can be good" line reminded me of "Once". But after that, they never mentioned that moral quandary again. The other characters did bear some responsibility for what happens, but I thought the Witch was a little Regina-y in some parts in Act 2.

The morality essay was interesting and very carefully done, but felt like a case of someone who loves a work so much they saw so much in it. He said "Into the Woods" doesn't have a "saccharine" ending like Disney movies and "everyone lost someone", but at least one first watch, all those deaths were not earned, and were cheap ways to give everyone "lessons" to learn and to pull some emotion from the audience. It was just as saccharine when the Baker said Red, Jack and Cinderella could live with him even though they hardly seemed to know each other at all.

I think this musical might be one, where it becomes more enjoyable on rewatch as you get to know the characters more. A lot of movie reviews are saying the songs are bad, but I think they could definitely grow on me.

I'm interested to see how the movie will be different. I'm pretty fascinated with adaptations and how writers adapt original material.

I'm curious whether "Into the Woods" was an inspiration for A&E. If it does really well, I wonder if they will try to bring some characters like the Baker's Wife over onto "Once".

Edited by Camera One

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The "giants can be good" line reminded me of "Once".  But after that, they never mentioned that moral quandary again. The other characters did bear some responsibility for what happens, but I thought the Witch was a little Regina-y in some parts in Act 2.

 

 

They actually do bring up the morality questions several times.

 

 

Witch: Since when are you so squeemish? How many wolves have you carved up?

Red: A wolf's not the same.

Red: Ask a wolf's mother.

 

There's also

The Baker's father stealing the rampion and abandoning his son, The Baker and his wife lying to Jack about the beans and keeping one, Jack lying about Milky White, Jack's stealing from the Giant, The Baker's wife trying to get Cinderella's shoe, The Princes cheating on their wives, The Steward killing Jack's Mom, The Witch giving the Narrator to the Giant, The Baker's wife kissing Cinderella's Prince, everyone arguing with each other during "Your Fault," and the Baker almost abandoning his kid.

 

I think the big difference between the Witch and Regina is that the other characters are allowed to openly dislike her and call her out.

Rapunzel gets to tell her she's a horrible mother without anyone being like "No, she really does love you, you should be more understanding."

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I totally agree they bring up morality again and again. I just meant they didn't further discuss the morality of killing the Giantess.
I can imagine that Wolf dialogue in "Once". The Wolf was analogous to Cora, and the "heroes" killing them gets a "Think about the villain's relatives" response. I think that point is right up A&E's alley.

If this were a TV show, I can imagine the Witch getting resurrected again the next season.

Edited by Camera One

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Please spoiler-bar discussion of Into The Woods plots.  I'd like to be unspoiled when I see it.

 

In general, aren't movie plots supposed to sploiler-barred if they've just been released?  I realize that the play has been out for a while, but most of us haven't seen it.

 

Thanks!

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I'm so sorry jhlipton!  I was careful about my first post, but the spoiler tag didn't go through on the subsequent ones.  I just fixed it.  I look forward to reading your thoughts after seeing it.

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Also, anyone keeping track of NBC's live Peter Pan? I feel horrible for saying this, but Walken didn't seem like he was putting a lot of effort into his lines? I'll have to see what he's like live I suppose.

 

Christopher Walken is totally phoning it in. I'm liking the Peter Pan actress. Sadly, it's not interesting enough to keep me watching.

 

I watched this on the NBC website while I was cooking earlier... I am about 30 min from the end.  I've never watched this production before, so it isn't as bad as the reviews at the time.

 

The songs weren't too bad, though I had never heard any of them before.  The actress who played Peter Pan was fine, and I liked the actresses who played Wendy and Mrs. Darling.  

 

Christopher Walken seemed like he was stumbling around during the dance sequence.  I wasn't sure if that was intentional, and it was supposed to be funny, to make Hook seem more bumbling.  

 

I tried to rewatch the Peter Pan animated version in the summer, but I only got 20 min into it.  This storylines seemed a bit more engaging.  I think after this, I will try the animated version again.

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I actually finished watching the NBC Peter Pan later on. Not bad on the whole, but the ending plays out as creepy to modern sensibilities. haha

Not a fairy tale by any means, but I watched the third Hobbit movie today. It was good, but not great. Sadly, I feel that the Hobbit trilogy has retroactively diminished the LotR movies in many ways. Richard Armitage was yummy, of course! There were some weird scenes with Gandalf and Galadriel that had romantic overtones. I didn't like that. 92 yr old Christopher Lee had a fantastic fight sequence, and some foreshadowing was thrown in. Thankfully, the Silmarillion is off-limits. Otherwise, PJ will spend the next 20 years making 10 movies out of it. Who am I kidding--the movies would never stop.

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Not a fairy tale by any means, but I watched the third Hobbit movie today

I did too! I noticed a passing issue that Once also has.

The protagonists didn't have hardly any victories at all until the very end, then a deus ex machina was thrown in. It was just getting tiring seeing the antagonists win after win after win. You could probably count Smaug and Sauron as "victories", but toward the end in the battle scenes I got annoyed at all the false orc deaths.

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I am curious what this show would do with Narnia and Middle Earth, if they had the rights to it.  The White Witch in Narnia would fit right in. 

I am desperately hoping they never get the Narnia rights.  I don't want to see what they'd do to Narnia--it might make me sob actual Regina-size tears. 

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I realized what the insistence upon calling Rumple's separation from the dagger "cleaving" reminds me of: this strip from The Order of the Stick webcomic.

Something else Rumple and Regina have in common. :D

My husband love Order of the Stick. His computer has a screen saver from them of the characters fighting a giant snowman and one is yelling "get the hat, get the hat!" This reminds me, I was wondering if there is a Christmas realm in the Once universe. 

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Yes, the writers will certainly ruin Narnia but I strangely want to know *how* they would destroy it, LOL.

 

I actually finished watching the NBC Peter Pan later on. Not bad on the whole, but the ending plays out as creepy to modern sensibilities. haha

 

I just finished the last 30 minutes.  The music they use for the Jolly Roger and Neverland seemed reminiscient of some of the score for the musical.

 

I'd have to agree about the ending.  What the heck, letting your daughter fly off with Peter.  Did she suffer amnesia and forgot how she almost died there last time?  Wendy still believes, so she could technically go there too.  Hook was an adult, and he was in Neverland, so it's not like only children are allowed.  I guess Mr. and Mrs. Darling letting Baelfire live with them on "Once Upon a Time" is actually more believable than them adopting all the Lost Boys in this musical.  At least they weren't dropped like a hot potato once they left Neverland, like on "Once".

Edited by Camera One
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It is holiday break and we are watching a lot more children's programing than usual. Yesterday it was The Pirate Fairy. It a Tinkerbell movie and features a guy who may be

a young Captain Hook

and is voiced by Tom Hiddleston. Sigh. 

Right now it is Princess Sophia and I thinking about her being on Once but only if Tim Gunn gets to play Baliywick in real life. They are so good at casting kids this could work. Maybe. For one episode. 

 

Then there is Jake and the Neverland Pirates. My toddler guy wants to be Izzy for next Halloween. (This is too early even for me to start.) I love this version of Smee so much, I might dress as him if my kiddos stick with this theme. 

 

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The Once Upon a Time Facebook page posted a video of the new show Galavant. They simply stated, "Heroes. Villains. Jazz Hands." I was thinking that really should be the tagline for 4B!

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We saw the promo for Galavant when we were at the movies a couple weeks back and my husband started shrieking like he was passing a kidney stone. He REALLY hates musicals. So I guess I won't be watching this one. .. at least not while he's home. :-)

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We saw the promo for Galavant when we were at the movies a couple weeks back and my husband started shrieking like he was passing a kidney stone. He REALLY hates musicals. So I guess I won't be watching this one. .. at least not while he's home. :-)

 

I might try it. Some musicals are too cheesy for my taste, but it might be surprise me. I'm more interested in watching Agent Carter. Period shows always intrigue me one way or another.

Edited by KingOfHearts

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I love musicals, but we'll have to see what kind of musical Galavant ends up being. I was worried that it would conflict with Downton Abbey, and I have my priorities there, but it looks like I'll be okay.

 

I did like the movie version of Into the Woods. The singing ended up not being a huge problem -- if anything, it was overproduced. Everyone sounded like they had a master's degree in voice (which I don't think is the case), but hey, at least it was on pitch. I'm not sure a non-singer would notice that their physical performance didn't match the sound we were hearing. It was pretty obviously lip synched, and while the lips were in sync, the things you do to produce sound didn't quite match. But that's just a quibble. I thought the cast was excellent and especially loved Emily Blunt, who made the Baker's Wife more sympathetic than I'm used to seeing (she tends to get played as a bit of a shrew). It was a little odd seeing actual children for Red Riding Hood and Jack. Meryl Streep was having so much fun I almost wondered if she'd paid for the privilege of doing this role, rather than the other way around. You could practically see the waves of glee radiating off of her.

 

I spent a lot of the movie noticing things and thinking "this is what Once Upon a Time should be doing."

 

I was a little alarmed by the number of children in the theater, but the row of 8-11 or so year-olds down in front applauded the ending, and a very young voice from somewhere behind me piped up "Can we watch it again?" as soon as it was over. But I don't think the kid behind me got it at all. The family was Indian, so I don't know if they had language problems, culture problems or just didn't realize what the movie would be. The kid seemed really confused.

 

The preview for Cinderella looked really good, but I was distracted by noticing that the pervasive visual theme was the exact same shade of blue as Richard Madden's eyes and wondering if that was done on purpose and if they perhaps did some digital magic on his eyes. Every time a bright color popped up, it was that shade of blue.

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We saw the promo for Galavant when we were at the movies a couple weeks back and my husband started shrieking like he was passing a kidney stone. He REALLY hates musicals. So I guess I won't be watching this one. .. at least not while he's home. :-)

I don't care for Gervais, but I might watch anyway.

 

Now onto Into The Woods:

By and large, I liked it.  Meryl Streep was definitely the best part.  But...

 

The second part didn't work too well.  I think cutting "So Happy" was a major mistake -- without it, so many actions, like Cinderella's Prince seducing the Baker's Wife, or her succumbing to it, don't make sense.  There is no repercussion from the 'death" of the Baker's Wife (I prefer to think she just convinced Jack to say sh was dead and really just ran off away from a man who never seemed to love her -- and who got over her pretty quick.) whose death doesn't make any sense -- the Prince is far more reprehensible than she is.  And the ending pan into the sky just confused me.

 

My mom and wife loved it, though, and I'll watch it again when it comes to Netflix.

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I saw Into the Woods over the weekend. I'd seen a live stage performance some time ago.

My favorite part is the song 'Agony' with the two princes.

There's plenty of beanstalk, and it's much deeper than OUaT, but damn I missed my sexy pirate.

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