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S05.E05: Big Little Liza

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7 hours ago, gesundheit said:

While in fairness I'm biased because I think Charles is really boring (and not very bright, to be honest), I also don't understand how we're supposed to be all "Charles is The One!" when they've literally never been on one date. A mutual crush means nothing, so if they're going to ask us to accept them as endgame, we need to see a relationship.

The way to get a foot in the door in the publishing world IS getting coffee and making copies. That's where you start. So sure, while she might've been able to get a receptionist job with no upward mobility at an investment firm or something, these menial jobs in publishing are VERY competitive and they have movement in mind. No way could she have gotten that being honest in her situation.

Yeah it was odd to me to read comments from almost everyone that says the show is telegraphing Charles as Liza’s end game. And I know josh wants kids or has said he does but let’s be realistic the show may hardly remember this info. Hell they had him get married in the finale last season and it was kind of a big plot point only to kind of just “whatever” the whole thing.

Also despite what others think or see, it still seems on my tv screen that Liza still has residual romantic feelings for Josh. The episode this week showed some, her reaction when he had returned from Ireland was kind of awkaward and the end of the season finale at the wedding she seemed kind of upset he was marrying Claire. So. I don’t know. 

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1 hour ago, WhosThatGirl said:

the end of the season finale at the wedding she seemed kind of upset he was marrying Claire

Because it was a green card marriage, and she was being unwillingly drawn into the deceit.

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On 7/11/2018 at 3:54 PM, gesundheit said:

There's definitely nothing easy about getting an entry-level position in a competitive field at 40 after a near two-decade resume gap. Even her education in that field is 20 years out of date.

I agree. I'm 34 and have a 10 year gap. The only job I've been able to find is a lunchroom monitor job. I've applied for anything and everything. Zero luck.

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1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Because it was a green card marriage, and she was being unwillingly drawn into the deceit.

I think it was more than that, by the look on her face. Also moments before when he was telling her he had to do this to let go of her but whatever, everyone else seems to think it’s charles and Liza at the end but there are still moments with Liza and josh constantly on this show. At least I see them. Also.. why are they still keeping josh around if he still isn’t a choice for Liza at some point? Also the  carnival type promos for this season implied that it still isn’t over for josh and Liza. But again.. whatever.

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8 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

Wouldn’t the ingredients that make the makeup taste good also be horrible for your skin? I keep picturing eye infections from edible mascara. 

Coconut oil and cocoa butter are edible and good for the skin. It can be done.  

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On 7/10/2018 at 10:44 PM, voiceover said:

 

And I loved how she dumped Sutton Foster's ex.  Sometimes it does just come down to "You're an asshole!"

I may be wrong, but I think the rumor is Foster cheated on Borle with Bobby Canavale.

 

On 7/11/2018 at 11:05 AM, gesundheit said:

Oh also, would it REALLY be that massive a story that some new editor at an imprint is slightly older than the name of the imprint?

This. The whole time I couldn't figure out why anybody would be writing a story about Empirical/Liza for Vanity Freaking Fair.  This whoLe episode was so cobbled together and stuff with crazy mishaps. And I swear to god I'll chop all my fingers off if they try and pair Liza and Josh up again. And - good lord - could they either find Liza a man she isn't professionally involved with or at least address her horrible judgement and bottomless need for male attention/approval. Oh, and please fix Duff's foundation/makeup while you're at it. It's all cakey and the color is off.

Darren Starr gets so much hype but, man, are his shows cyclical and repetitive.

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32 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

I may be wrong, but I think the rumor is Foster cheated on Borle with Bobby Canavale.

 I never heard that one. I think Bobby came later. I heard about Borle and Laura Bell Bundy. 

I'm not sure about forum rules about private lives so I'll move on.

 

Sutton won performer of the week from tvline. 

https://tvline.com/2018/07/14/sutton-foster-younger-season-5-episode-5-performance/

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On 7/11/2018 at 10:05 AM, gesundheit said:

Oh also, would it REALLY be that massive a story that some new editor at an imprint is slightly older than the name of the imprint?

No, it really would not. "OMG, this editor of the hot new imprint is gasp 4 years older than the oldest person in the generation they are trying to appeal to. How could she possibly know what millennials would like?" Besides her age, she's told people that she spent 5 years writing and doing volunteer work in India, which is  an actual issue. She spent so much of the first season using her lies about fictional aid work in India to cover for why she didn't know common things. It mostly came out with her friendships, but she did tell some of those stories at work. We don't know if they had any beneficial impact on her career. 

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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:08 PM, chybee23 said:

How can we see Charles hasn’t accepted her for who she is? He hasn’t accepted the fact that she lied yet, yes, but I don’t see that basis yet for claiming he doesn’t love her for who she is.

If Charles was attracted to the person that Liza actually is (bright, literate, interested and knowledgeable about literature, mature) and not about the attractive, young thing she seems to be, he would be relieved that she is actually age-appropriate for him and a person who is right to take the place of mother of his children.  Instead, he's butt-hurt that she "lied to him", which says, to me, that he was far more invested in the fantasy than he is in the reality of a relationship with the real Liza.

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51 minutes ago, morakot said:

If Charles was attracted to the person that Liza actually is (bright, literate, interested and knowledgeable about literature, mature) and not about the attractive, young thing she seems to be, he would be relieved that she is actually age-appropriate for him and a person who is right to take the place of mother of his children.  Instead, he's butt-hurt that she "lied to him", which says, to me, that he was far more invested in the fantasy than he is in the reality of a relationship with the real Liza.

He did say, “Part of me is relieved she’s 26.” I don’t see how being attracted to someone’s qualities and being disappointed when someone does wrong is mutually exclusive. Josh is always reminding her that she hurts the people she loves—does that mean he doesn’t care about her? And yes, she did lie to him. Marriage, children—that’s all integral to a person and their history. She passed herself off to him as a millennial, not a 40-year old. That’s dishonesty. Never mind the harm it can do his company, and when you’re responsible for other peoeple’s jobs, no, it’s not selfish to think about that. And it’s kinda human to be “butt hurt” about someone you love, who also reciprocates those feelings, pretending to be something else for period of time. Ironically, he probably wouldn’t have made a fuss if he didn’t care about her. And had he had the luxury of hearing it from her, I’m sure it would’ve been easier to listen. 

I don’t know, though, maybe it’d preferable for him to say he’s committed to her and then “ghost” an episode later as opposed to working through his feelings so that they don’t have those issues when they get together. 

Edited by chybee23
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37 minutes ago, morakot said:

If Charles was attracted to the person that Liza actually is (bright, literate, interested and knowledgeable about literature, mature) and not about the attractive, young thing she seems to be, he would be relieved that she is actually age-appropriate for him and a person who is right to take the place of mother of his children.  Instead, he's butt-hurt that she "lied to him", which says, to me, that he was far more invested in the fantasy than he is in the reality of a relationship with the real Liza.

The thing that's so insufferable about Charles is that Josh and Liza broke up in the penultimate episode of season 1 and were back together though it was rocky during the season 2 double episode. These 2 had an actual sexual relationship and were taking steps to get back together because they felt that strongly about each other.

However, Charles finds out in episode 1 of this season and has continued to be in a snit for 4 or more episodes. He's kissed her three times. I don't think he even knows about Maggie. Diana knows about Liza being friends with Maggie. He's fixated on this idea of a too-wise for her years hot 20 something who is going to reinvigorate him. Fuq that noise. I wish the show had the balls to call him on that.

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Charles is also someone who never had to look for a job. He had one waiting in his family publishing house. 

And, @chybee23, Liza has more options than Charles or Josh -- she even has an option of no-one for a while.

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1 minute ago, morakot said:

Charles is also someone who never had to look for a job. He had one waiting in his family publishing house. 

And, @chybee23, Liza has more options than Charles or Josh -- she even has an option of no-one for a while.

No one’s arguing Liza didn’t have a good reason, but her lie has affected other people now. Not just the men in her life, but someone like Kelsey whose imprint can lose all credibility at a drop of a hat and that part of it isn’t excusable. 

Of course she has other options. I’m just offering some counterpoints to the argument that Charles’ characterization has delegitimized his feelings for her. At the end of the day, she’ll pick who she wants to be with, if anyone. 

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On 7/11/2018 at 11:05 AM, gesundheit said:

Oh also, would it REALLY be that massive a story that some new editor at an imprint is slightly older than the name of the imprint?

Liza's actual story about fooling a whole company by posing as a 20-something would make for a great VF feature, along the lines of this. It would definitely get lots of traction on social media and get people talking. But that would require extensive interviews with multiple people and the Christian Borle character obviously wasn't doing that, as they got to the fact-checking stage within days. 

Still, I think the news on its own would be interesting enough to publish. New York media Twitter would love it. Your story wouldn't be "40-year-old works at Millenial publishing" it would be "How a 40-year-old mom became a star at Empirical Publishing by pretending to be 26." I'd read that.

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10 hours ago, sashayshante said:

I may be wrong, but I think the rumor is Foster cheated on Borle with Bobby Canavale.

 

9 hours ago, Stuffy said:

 I never heard that one. I think Bobby came later. I heard about Borle and Laura Bell Bundy.

Sutton Foster met Bobby Cannavale when they did an Off Broadway play called Trust in 2010, which was after her divorce to Christian Borle was finalized (they actually divorced in 2009 but neither one of them discussed it publicly until 2010 after it was finalized). Her relationship with Bobby Cannavale, on the other hand, was very public. They attended the 2011 Tonys together (she thanked both Bobby and his son in her acceptance speech) and spoke about each other in interviews frequently. This is all easily google-able and verified by both Sutton and Bobby (aka fact, not gossip). Just want to set the record straight that she did NOT cheat on Christian with Bobby. As she said in Inside the Episode video above, she and Christian are friends now so it's all water under the bridge. I thought it was nice of the producers to ask her if she'd be okay with him guest starring before they actually hired him. Some people would not be able to handle acting with their exes on camera (let alone kissing each other on camera), so it's always nice to see exes who get along.

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12 hours ago, retrograde said:

Still, I think the news on its own would be interesting enough to publish. New York media Twitter would love it. Your story wouldn't be "40-year-old works at Millenial publishing" it would be "How a 40-year-old mom became a star at Empirical Publishing by pretending to be 26." I'd read that.

Same here. Now that Charles knows Liza's real age, I think the show needs to end the deceit once and for all. He can't really fire her, and his continued complicity will only make things worse when the lie becomes public. If the story is written properly, everyone could come out in a fairly decent light, and it would allow Empirical/Millennium to steer it a bit.

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The thing that bugs me the most about this show is that, if Liza truly were 27 or so, she'd be a hard 27. That nobody, especially Diana, would suspect something was amiss undermines everything. In the first couple of seasons it was kinda believable but now it's just like that  Steve Buscemi hello fellow kids gif. They have to out Liza's secret soon because it's getting nearly impossible to believe people around her don't suspect. I also wish they'd address the fact that Charles and the Ridley guy are men in their mid-forties dating/into a woman in her mid twenties. Obviously there's nothing improper about it, but I have a few guy friends who do that and I now avoid them.

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10 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

That nobody, especially Diana, would suspect something was amiss undermines everything.

I kind of believe Diana doesn't suspect anything, as she's simply not interested enough to take a close look at Liza. Diana has other things she wants to focus on. Heh. But the idea that nobody else has wondered is valid, and that's a big reason why I think the secret has to be widely revealed, be dealt with, and go on from there. 

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It is interesting that some people make such a big deal about the age difference. Charles fell in love with a 27 year old. (or thought he did) Its not like she is 18.....that would be a little much!! When I was 26 I dated a 45 year old guy. I was working full time when I was 13 years old and owned a business in my twenties. It was natural since I was always very mature for my age.  But 27 or 41, Liza and Charles are still a good match ;)

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3 hours ago, sashayshante said:

The thing that bugs me the most about this show is that, if Liza truly were 27 or so, she'd be a hard 27. That nobody, especially Diana, would suspect something was amiss undermines everything. In the first couple of seasons it was kinda believable but now it's just like that  Steve Buscemi hello fellow kids gif. They have to out Liza's secret soon because it's getting nearly impossible to believe people around her don't suspect. I also wish they'd address the fact that Charles and the Ridley guy are men in their mid-forties dating/into a woman in her mid twenties. Obviously there's nothing improper about it, but I have a few guy friends who do that and I now avoid them.

I wish the show would go with the idea that Diana’s known all along, but that wouldn’t be the drama they want. 

It’s pretty interesting that every man besides Josh that’s been interested in her is 40, though—maybe 27 year olds see right through the age thing and don’t approach her. I really don’t think they can address it though since they never made Liza macking on a 26 year old a big deal. It’d be a double standard at best. 

Edited by chybee23
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7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I kind of believe Diana doesn't suspect anything, as she's simply not interested enough to take a close look at Liza. Diana has other things she wants to focus on.

I think it's a combination of Diana not giving a rat's ass how old her coffee fetcher is and Diana focusing on more important things at work (like her actual job). When Liza started working there, Liza was just the next entry level gofer so Diana only paid her as much as attention as was necessary to bark orders at her.  She is not the kind of person who goes out of her way to befriend her coworkers, let alone the low level employees she supervises.

For the first few seasons, I'm pretty sure that most of the information she got about Liza was from Liza voluntarily offering it ("I got a bruise playing kickball last night!") or because Diana sort of asked her a question ("Why are you coughing? Are you sick?"). I've worked with people like that before and I can tell you with 100% certainty they did not know personal things about me like my age, my interests, etc. And I totally get that some people go to work solely to work, not to find drinking buddies or new BFFs. It's okay to be coworkers and maintain a professional relationship where you don't hang out together after work. Not every coworker is going to be like Kelsey and ask you a million questions about yourself, your personal life, your boyfriend, etc. and want to be friends.

And it's not just the age divide. Look at how many other people work at that company who have no clue what Liza's age is. I'd bet if you asked half of the people in the office how old Liza is (including Zane), they'd say, "Uh, I don't know." It's not because they're rude or they don't like her, just that they don't care how old she is as long as she's doing her job and not creating extra work for them or being a pain in the ass.

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14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

[Diana] is not the kind of person who goes out of her way to befriend her coworkers, let alone the low level employees she supervises.

I agree. I'd bet that even if she knew Liza's real age from the start, Diana would treat her the same way. I think Diana is a bit too brusque at times (on the show it's funny; IRL it would be less so), but she's busy and just wants done what she wants done.

14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'd bet if you asked half of the people in the office how old Liza is (including Zane), they'd say, "Uh, I don't know."

I'm terrible at guessing ages anyway. I think everyone is around 35 unless it's completely obvious they're older or younger, LOL.

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On 7/11/2018 at 12:46 PM, thesupremediva1 said:

So that ep was largely a miss for me until Nico and Sutton had their scene together. I held my breath through the whole thing. I don't care if you aren't a fan of the Josh/Liza relationship, you can't deny that those two have explosive chemistry.

 

This is true! I used to consider myself Team Charles but now I'm super conflicted! Ahhh.

Also agree that Hilary Duff's makeup is terrible this season. Can't they watch this stuff on playback and see it on set and fix it? Yikes.

The preview for the rest of the season is intriguing. I think this show is much better when you binge a whole season rather than watching each episode week-to-week.

Edited by supergirlsudz · Reason: adding more thoughts
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5 hours ago, supergirlsudz said:

This is true! I used to consider myself Team Charles but now I'm super conflicted! Ahhh.

I can see how, on paper, and within the narrative, Team Charles is the way to go. It reads like natural endgame. But sometimes what you see on screen can change things. Nico and Sutton's chemistry, when compared with the lack of chemistry between Peter Hermann (no less hot than Nico) and Sutton, might be driving the writer's indecision, or maybe neither are set up as the OTP. Sometimes that chemistry or lack thereof actually changes a show's endgame (see: BH 90210 shift from Dylan/Brenda to Dylan/Kelly and Gossip Girl's complete twist on the books with Chuck and Blair). But chemistry's only part of the issue. The writing surrounding Charles and Liza hasn't been up to par for me to ship them. As of late, the writing in general hasn't been great. 

Plus, if the writers didn't want me on board with Josh/Liza, they shouldn't have played that Perishers song during their scene in the season 4 finale. Maybe I'm just a big fan of that song who happens to know all the lyrics, but if you're taking a narrative cue from that scene, then Josh and Liza are endgame. "There's Nothing Like You and I" is a stunner of a song so I suggest listening and checking out the lyrics if you want to see why that music choice was so important to me.

Edited by thesupremediva1
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1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

I can see how, on paper, and within the narrative, Team Charles is the way to go. It reads like natural endgame. But sometimes what you see on screen can change things. Nico and Sutton's chemistry, when compared with the lack of chemistry between Peter Hermann (no less hot than Nico) and Sutton. Sometimes that actually changes a show's endgame (see: BH 90210 shift from Dylan/Brenda to Dylan/Kelly). But chemistry's only part of the issue. The writing surrounding Charles and Liza hasn't been up to par for me to ship them. As of late, the writing in general hasn't been great. 

Plus, if the writers didn't want me on board with Josh/Liza, they shouldn't have played that Perishers song during their scene in the season 4 finale. Maybe I'm just a big fan of that song who happens to know all the lyrics, but if you're taking a narrative cue from that scene, then Josh and Liza are endgame. "There's Nothing Like You and I" is a stunner of the song so I suggest listening and checking out the lyrics if you want to see why that music choice was so important to me.

This! Also in the season 4 finale, Liza’s facial expressions when the vows were happening were not “I can’t believe josh is doing this for a green card marriage “ she looked heartbroken for herself. And just before that when Liza confronted him he pretty much said “I’m still in love with you but I can’t be anymore so I have to do this”. The writers definitely are giving mixed messages and just trying to work with whatever narrative they want at the moment.

And even that changes from episode to episode. I don’t know. I don’t know if josh is the endgame but I don’t think the show is dead set on it being Charles either. I find it so odd that people believe he’s the end guy when the show still telegraphs otherwise.

Edited by WhosThatGirl
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I think you're misunderstanding those of us who think Charles is the end game. We don't necessarily want Liza to end up with Charles, but think she'll end up with him because the writing is heavily foreshadowing it. Liza's relationship with Charles is the one that has been written closer to romantic tropes. It's all starlight and swooning, bad timing and heartfelt confessions, and kisses breaching professional boundaries and romantic rescues from the Paramus Mall. And as the show tried to underscore in the episode about finding a romance novel ghostwriter, it wants a happy ending and views Charles as that happy ending.

Liza has also had very little back and forth with Josh. That's a classic romance trope. It wants their love to have been real and significant, but over and done with. Liza is clearly the one that got away for Josh, but the converse is not true. I think Sutton has better chemistry with Nico. That chemistry has allowed Josh to endure much longer than he was intended to. But that chemistry doesn't mean that the writers want them together. If they truly wanted them together, they'd actually give Josh a storyline. They might have kept him with Clare. Liza and Josh might have had an illicit romance as neither can deny their passion, but they didn't. Josh is single now. Liza is single. But the closest the writers get is Liza declaring that she'll always be in his life as a friend. They like Nico, but they keep Josh around only to be an impediment to Charles like the fight at Pound Ridge.

Charles and Liza are likely the end game, but they shouldn't be. If you've read through the comments here, you'll see many of us grumbling about it too.

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18 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I think you're misunderstanding those of us who think Charles is the end game. We don't necessarily want Liza to end up with Charles, but think she'll end up with him because the writing is heavily foreshadowing it. Liza's relationship with Charles is the one that has been written closer to romantic tropes. It's all starlight and swooning, bad timing and heartfelt confessions, and kisses breaching professional boundaries and romantic rescues from the Paramus Mall. And as the show tried to underscore in the episode about finding a romance novel ghostwriter, it wants a happy ending and views Charles as that happy ending.

Yes, theirs is the classic romcom romance. Misunderstanding, one may or may not be done with their ex, lots of longing looks but not too much actual action. I would love Josh to be end game because they have more chemistry to me, but also their story is different than most. He wants kids and that isn't going to even be an option for her soon. That is a real world issue they would have to hurtle. Not a TV show only, you lied to everyone about your age to get a job kind of romcom hijinx.

 

I mostly find Charles end game because he seems to be Darren Starr's go to love interest type. He is, as others have mentioned, basically the Mr. Big of this show.

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