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S02.E11: Holly

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5 hours ago, PepSinger said:

What was new information in this episode?

Have not watched yet, but apparently the new information is what new faces can Elisabeth Moss make, or something.

 

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

You can't drive while giving birth, and you can't drive with a newborn without a carseat. At least both the baby and June made it through the birth alive, so that's a positive.

Actually, the act seat is something that a "normal" society requires, and it is pretty new. Safer, absolutely, but if you are trying to escape a threat, I don't think you would just stop because there is no car seat.

 

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I'm perfectly happy with them expanding it and showing it on a bigger scale. What they're doing right now isn't working for me. I am just kind of tired of them using "it's the Handmaid's story" as an excuse for some of the other things they're doing that aren't working. 

Which is also not true. It was the Handmaid's story in the first season, when the writing was closer to the book. This season is extrapolating, so they can extrapolate. 

 

1 hour ago, LittleRed84 said:

Sadly, the disappointment of the masses regarding the stagnant plot will overshadow her performance this time. 

I bet she will get an Emmy for this scene, even tough I haven't watched yet. The PR and lobbying will be heavy

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23 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

I bet she will get an Emmy for this scene, even tough I haven't watched yet. The PR and lobbying will be heavy

I think the Emmy qualifying time has passed unfortunately. Episode 10 was the last one to fit the time slot I believe. 

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This is so nitpicky, and I know my own grammar is not perfect by any means - but then, I'm not supposed to be a book editor, either. When June was trying to convince Hannah to go to school and she said 'Daddy and I' (we) when it should have been 'Daddy and me' (us), I could feel the smoke coming out of my ears. I know, I know - get a grip. But still.

5 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

Also, black wolves of protection roam the suburbs where the electricity and water lines operate separately. 

Oh, and some Commanders have really cool muscle cars in their forbidden garages of self-loathing. 

'Forbidden garages of self-loathing'. Snerk.

5 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I am starting to look at this show as a simple collection of scenes rather than as one that has an actual ongoing storyline. 

More and more it feels like this is what the writers do - conceive of individual scenes and then attempt to weave the narrative around them, rather than creating scenes that exist to serve and maintain the narrative. They could get away with it occasionally - what show doesn't do that from time to time? - but it seems to be the rule, not the exception here. It was hugely apparent this episode, which was beautifully acted and shot, but ultimately was mostly filler, and momentum-killing filler at that. The stakes felt artificial - June was not going to escape (yet, at least), die in childbirth, get eaten by a wolf, shoot either of the Waterfucks. About the only thing that really felt up in the air was whether the baby would be okay. It was gorgeous awards-bait, but as we approach the end of the season, it felt like wasted opportunity.

4 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Not only was her every escape plan thwarted, they literally wrote in a black wolf guarding her. It wasn’t threatening or attacking, just this symbolic sentry that I had to laugh at each time because it was such a poorly done touch.

I couldn't with the black wolf of protection (™AnswersWanted). Really, show?

Struggling here with the depiction of Fred...first he had an utterly uncharacteristic attack of conscience regarding his latest rape of June, to such an extent that he risked letting her visit Hannah, at least according to the writers (don't you have to have a conscience in order to suffer an attack of it?). Then in this episode, in his throwdown with Serena, he actually sounded bewildered and hurt when he said 'Nick wouldn't be disloyal', like the concept had never entered his mind before. He knows Nick fathered 'his' baby, FFS! Are we supposed to believe that Fred has this untapped store of naivete within?

Nevertheless, for me, the best part of the episode was Fred and Serena letting it rip and at last beginning to cannibalize each other. The love is well and truly gone, y'all. After all that's come before, there was something quite satisfying about them letting it out and turning their venom on each other.

3 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Along these same lines, Serena telling Fred she gave everything up for a baby. I don’t actually believe this and it’s just part of Serena’s narrative now. We saw her making speeches, we saw her own rallying. The “cause” wasn’t about her getting a baby. She might’ve argued that this destruction of society was all about babies, but it clearly wasn’t. Eventually, when she realized that her kind of woman would also be sacrificed to the “cause”, she decided her consolation prize would be a baby, she’d settle for that since she lost everything, but it’s bullshit to say this was her goal from the start. Her goal was harnessing and driving society into the ground until it yielded to her cause. 

Yes, this - and using that which feminism had won for her to do so. And I really hope that her claim that it was all about a baby for her is just her own self-delusion and not an attempt at retcon by the show itself. It feels regressive to boil everything down to her desire for a baby, when the truth is a lot more complex, and less stereotypical.

1 hour ago, LittleRed84 said:

On a positive note- it was nice to have an actress portray a birth scene more realistically- not some squeaking and half-assed pushing resulting in a clean shiny toddler being born. (Yes, the baby needed more vernix to look real, but it was a dark scene.) Elisabeth’s acting during the birth was excellent, (especially from an actress that doesn’t have any children to my knowledge, so has no real life birth experience to draw on). I was very impressed with that part. 

Sadly, the disappointment of the masses regarding the stagnant plot will overshadow her performance this time. 

I was also pleased with the more realistic birth scene...until they had her immediately turn over and pull up the blanket. Uh...AFTERBIRTH. You're not done yet, June. Not that we wanted an extended scene of it or anything, but some indication that the birth was not over yet would have been nice, considering the realism of what had come before.

I did appreciate Moira's attempt to cut the tension in the flashback ('...and she YouTubed it!') and the 'cameo' by you-know-who. Elisabeth Moss was amazing as usual, even though I was keenly aware the whole time that I was watching something specifically crafted to win her more awards. I think I would have appreciated an episode like this one a bit more if we hadn't been struggling all season with getting things to hang together cohesively, and for real forward momentum.

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1 hour ago, LittleRed84 said:

I think the Emmy qualifying time has passed unfortunately. Episode 10 was the last one to fit the time slot I believe. 

Actually, having watched the episode, I don't think EM was that great on it. I really don't. It did nothing for me. Not like the rape episode, when I felt sick watching it. This time I was actually distracted doing other stuff for part of her scenes. YS nailed though, like she has this whole season.

Now, my peeves: there is no way a wolf would see blood and just "commune" with the human and the sky. Please, show.

Those little strings that put the garage doors on manual, they are so simple, mechanically, the idea that one would get "stuck" is way too unrealistic. Lazy writing that couldn't come up with something better.

What a waste of Samira Wiley. Seriously, her facial expressions are the best. I catch myself changing mine just watching her and imagining what she sees/feels.

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Yeah, that Commander has a lot of money if that's just his "summer house."

If only the show would address the various states of income and influence and jobs the various commanders have, right?

I’m sure it was someone else’s home and car that was given to a commander when that person(s) was forced into slavery - I’m going to fanwank that it was the neonatal doctor-Martha’s home to chill out and spin fast cars in the snow after long hours of surgery saving babies ;-) Imagine how many beautiful homes are out there... 

Also I see the car as another joke of Gilead - like Jezebels, or like June’s face when she saw all of the medical equipment being used to save cmdr Waterford and even baby Angela. How is that tech is ok to save a privileged person, then but not ok for perpetuating the birth of babies (in-vitro or in childbirth), which is supposed to be the entire goal of gilead. 

You also know for sure that if a Martha was the only one who could save a Commander’s life, they would let her help straight away. 

Every commander probably has a stolen hot rod in his garage to jerk off to...

All.Lies.

Quote

You can’t drive a newborn without a car seat 

Many parents and pediatricians dealing with babies in the 1960s-70s (even 80s) - would disagree! I was born in 1980 and my mom said (if driving alone with newborn) she just bundled me up on the seat next to her, and if I rolled on the ground she picked me up... 

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 I legit tolerate flashbacks of Luke and June. Other the initial how they got together and were captured, I find the rest to be uninteresting.  The most interesting part of the episode was the McSadist and his wife arguing.  The dynamic between Fred and Serena is fascinating.  First Serena was abused by Fred recently but she still feels comfortable screaming at him like that in the hallway. Fred seems to despise Serena.  I fully think he believes where his life is her doing and blames her for creating Gilead. Never mind that he went along with it, promoted it and is a high powered official.  I suspect that is the crux of his hatred for her.  

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39 minutes ago, DuckyinKy said:

"I have my baby and a car, which is a way out of this dystopian society......if I only had a car seat. Oh well, back to handing over my baby to 2 abusive people and the ritualistic rape every month, sigh." 

A newborn’s head and neck is very delicate. I’d be extremely concerned about killing or paralyzing the baby, but YMMV.

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Relentless misery throughout. They even threw in a wolf there just for good measure, FFS.

Watching June do all that Sisyphus work lost most of its impact rather quickly as it could not have been more obvious how it's all going to end. At least she had the baby and they're both healthy, so... yay?

I don't think the flashbacks contributed to anything this time. And of course none of the questions from last week were answered. This show really is becoming This Is Us - a collection of random scenes that are supposed to have a gut-wrenching effect on viewers with no attempt whatsoever to make a logical connection between those scenes and create a truly coherent narrative. 

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My theory about Fred is this, he set June and Nick up to get out of Dodge, gave them enough time to get away then took Serena there to look for them, very weakly look for them, acting like it was an attempt, then hurried Serena out of the house.  So now he can say he tried to find them.  If Fred really did want to find June he would have looked in every room of that house.

How did Fred know that Nick is the baby's father?  Nobody told him, they alluded that it may have been someone else but never named Nick.  If Fred did orchestrate the escape then it may have been out of guilt for all the raping, with June begging for them to stop it became real rape.

I did like that June named the baby Holly however, June was not bothered at all to lay in all the birth mess, eww.

I still need more light, how convenient filming in a house with no electricity.

And, what was with June firing off the shot gun?

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13 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

My theory about Fred is this, he set June and Nick up to get out of Dodge, gave them enough time to get away then took Serena there to look for them, very weakly look for them, acting like it was an attempt, then hurried Serena out of the house.  So now he can say he tried to find them.  If Fred really did want to find June he would have looked in every room of that house.

How did Fred know that Nick is the baby's father?  Nobody told him, they alluded that it may have been someone else but never named Nick.  If Fred did orchestrate the escape then it may have been out of guilt for all the raping, with June begging for them to stop it became real rape.

I did like that June named the baby Holly however, June was not bothered at all to lay in all the birth mess, eww.

I still need more light, how convenient filming in a house with no electricity.

And, what was with June firing off the shot gun?

I thought serena told Fred Nick was the father

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I don't think she straight up told him, but it didn't take much for him to figure it out and it was always an unspoken truth between them. 

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3 minutes ago, Joana said:

I don't think she straight up told him, but it didn't take much for him to figure it out and it was always an unspoken truth between them. 

I mean he definitely knows because the Nick married off partly came from that.  so maybe he guessed

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10 hours ago, PepSinger said:

 What was new information in this episode?

That June's mother's name was Holly, that Luke's taste in music is lame and that Oprah is still alive. All essential information! 

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9 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

I don't know; this episode kicked me pretty damned hard in the feels. I guess it's impossible for me to see babies born without remembering how my own entered the world. The older guy was supposed be born at a freestanding birth center similar to--but less fancy than--the one Holly was showing to June. Preeclampsia put the kibosh on that plan--it would have been a Lady Sybil situation (or worse) had I not had an emergency c-section (he was 7.5 weeks premature). My second kiddo was a completely unmedicated VBAC and I couldn't have been happier. Well, not having food poisoning the night before into the next morning would have been nice, but you can't have everything.  I labored all day, pretty much myself (My now-ex was around the apartment, but he's an actual, textbook narcissist, so he spent the whole time on the phone and ignoring me.) The little guy was born within 40 minutes of our arrival at the hospital. My midwife basically missed it, but the doctor on call had had a VBAC too, so she got where I was coming from and was just great.

I held no illusions going in that June and Holly would escape, but even with that bleakness on the horizon, I was still so happy for June that she got to have her baby without any of those assholes anywhere near her. No bullshit "birthing" ritual starring Serena and her henchwives; no Aunt Lydia (although it seemed the memories of handmaid training were at least helpful on some level); no Moira or Luke, which was sad. But June got to have HER baby. Hold HER baby. Those moments will always belong to June and Holly; they're something Gilead doesn't get to own.

Yes, I loved that part. I'm glad Serena doesn't get to pretend she's the one having the baby. 

Also great? The fight between Serena and Fred. I love how they hate each other. And I'm glad June didn't shoot them because it would have been too quick and painless. 

Everything else was pretty weak. When you know that she isn't going to die and she isn't going to run away, it isn't exactly gripping. And well, if the writers want to spend ten seasons with June, they need to understand that some plots aren't going to work (like "will she escape?" Because we know she won't). 

Regarding the world's reaction to Gilead, if Gilead has nuclear power (and what`s left of America doesn't have economic power)  maybe the rest of the world is "okay, well, not our business". Right now there are people being massacred in several parts of the world, there are about 150 millions of slaves in Africa and Asia etc. and tbh, I don't see people in general losing their sleep over that. So maybe Gilead is being watched with the same indifference. 

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4 hours ago, Becks said:

‘Forbidden garages of self-loathing'. Snerk.

 

I feel like that would be an addition to a Gilead leader’s expansion pack: hey now, say my dear fellows, what else do we need to include in our vast collection of things that supposedly we need to heavy and forcefully restrict and ban everyone else from owning/using? Garages with outlawed cars in them! Perfect.

 

4 hours ago, Becks said:

I couldn't with the black wolf of protection (™AnswersWanted). Really, show?

 

 The only thing that creature was missing that could’ve made it any more a heavily plot centered creation, as if playing the part of “inspiration wolfhound” was not enough to grab you by the feels, would’ve been if it had a hanging collar tag somehow that had the name “Holly” on it.

For me the need to roll my eyes came quite often with this episode.

 

3 hours ago, julia1130 said:

I’m sure it was someone else’s home and car that was given to a commander when that person(s) was forced into slavery - I’m going to fanwank that it was the neonatal doctor-Martha’s home to chill out and spin fast cars in the snow after long hours of surgery saving babies ;-) Imagine how many beautiful homes are out there... 

 

I love this. I shall steal this beautiful vision for my own sanity’s sake, thanks, heh. 

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10 hours ago, LittleRed84 said:

Ernest Hemingway is famously long winded? He hold the record for the longest sentence at 424 words. Aka. Filler

I was thinking Proust.

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I wasn't really bothered by where the summer house was - I just assumed it was a somewhat out-of-the-way second home somewhere within their district. Now, under what circumstances everyone ended up there and why it always snows in Gilead, I'm really not sure, but I didn't think twice about the house. I did think, though, that muscle cars don't do well in the snow and worried June would crash into a tree if she did get out. And I laughed my ass off at the wolf/dog (whatever that was supposed to be). I was like, "Of course there's a wolf. Perfect." 

Those must have been some seriously reinforced garage doors, man. I have seen people barrel through them with far less effort. 

I yelled, "OPRAH?" the moment I heard her voice. This wasn't my favorite episode, but that made it worth it, heh. And June only listened for 10 seconds - who knows what else our dear Oprah had to say? I'd love an episode dedicated to that, for real. Oprah's voice reporting the news on some random "great white north" radio station. Oprah's take on what was going on with the world. How she was still finding a way to live her best life. What would her new favorite things be? Is she hanging out with JOHN TRAVOLTAAAAA? Where are Gayle and Stedman? I'm dying to know. :) 

Serena's and Fred's fight was amazing. I felt like they were being "before" Serena and Fred and I loved watching them explode on each other. My god, do they hate each other. It was delicious.

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5 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I was thinking Proust.

You beat me to it (she said, munching on a madeleine...)!

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The Waterfords' argument was great, as was Oprah's cameo. Otherwise, yikes. Add me to the long list of bored folks. I didn't even pause when leaving the room for water/bathroom/etc. It doesn't help that I already find labor/delivery scenes boring as hell -- why is watching someone I don't know yelling and pushing and sweating interesting? And then they literally intercut with two OTHER labor/delivery scenes. I had to mute it for a bit. (I always feel bad for the actresses, too, and you basically can't BE a working actress without having to do one of those scenes at least every few years.) That said, I must confess I took zero issue with her just kind of wrapping a blanket around them and the afterbirth -- she's been through plenty, I don't think she cares about cleanliness at this point.

By the way, where do people see previews for the next episode? Everyone's always talking about them and I've never seen a preview.

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Is it weird that I almost wanted this to turn into The Grey, except its June except Liam Neeson fighting a wolf? At least it would shake things up from the endless sadness mixed with flashbacks to random stuff that connects somewhat to whats going on. 

Yeah, I can appreciate Elizabeth Moss being awesome, but it seems like an episode thats basically spinning its wheels again. June has the possibility of escape dangled in front of her, and it is probably not going to come to anything. This time, she was stopped by apparently a damn garage door opener. Mostly, I was kind of bored, and just wanted to get on with her doing something that actually means something. We`re getting close to the end of the season people, we gotta get moving onto the plot! Really, I just wanted to know if Nick was alright. Is he dead? In jail? Hung on a wall? Back at the house after making up some bullshit excuse? I want to know! 

The fight between Fred and Serena Joy was definitely the highlight. They are totally in No Fucks mode when it comes to their marriage, and its great. "Maybe they'll hang us side by side! Just my fucking luck!" 

I did love hearing the radio broadcast from Little America, and Junes reaction to it. Was that actually Opera? Thats freaking awesome, and I am going to say that she is playing herself. It sounds like they're continuing to build on the plot with the remaining American government still wielding some power and influence in the world (with even countries like China backing them now) and us wondering what theyre actually doing, as they seem to be making some real moves now. God I hope we`re getting closer to someone actually making a real dent in Gilead, for our sake and the people in the show. Plus, we might get to see Mark from the American government again. He was great in his one scene with SJ. He had an almost old school Hollywood kind of vibe. Stars and Stripes forever baby.

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4 minutes ago, Stiggs said:

Serena's and Fred's fight was amazing. I felt like they were being "before" Serena and Fred and I loved watching them explode on each other. My god, do they hate each other. It was delicious.

 

I uttered a snort when Fred fired off his comment about hanging on the wall abd ending up next to Serena. 

The fight was well choreographed, not just stylishly or physically, but I also thought it hit all the major notes about what is so fundamentally fucked up with these two. 

Fred is explosive when triggered, when Serena “oversteps” with one too many insults or personal jabs at him, the way he shoved her up against the wall in a fit of rage, wanting to “put her in her place”. 

And I will say kudos to the actress, Yvonne, for going there, because she was pregnant during that and admittedly if it were me my Mommy-to-be reflexs might have left Joe with a bloody nose, heh. 

But right after that display of terrorizing abusiveness, just as quickly as he went off, like a bomb, he defuses himself and seems to withdraw and becomes composed.

The mask of normalcy slides back into place, and he’s a “good man” again. 

Classic abuser, typical pathetic loser with fleeting self control and no decency, or dignity when you get right down to it. 

Then you have Serena, with her cutting tongue and slew of verbal barrages but it’s just an act, all empty insults and pointless jockeying for power or control she does not have and will never have. 

Her fight is internal turned external, she is screaming at Fred the same way she screams inwardly so often, screaming “look what you made me do!”, but it should be at a mirror showing her own reflection.

All that’s happened she did to herself but she wants to blame him, needs to, it’s the only way she can feel somehow detached from reality, from responsibility, from her true guilt. 

She is stuck with Fred, for better or worse, if he goes down for his stupid fuck ups she’ll hang right alongside him, she cannot escape that fate try as she might, not just because she has been far too involved and hands-on at times, but obviously Fred is not going to play her knight in chivalrous armor that will come to her rescue.

The disdain that exists between them, the anger and the feelings of betrayal and loathing, she knows she can’t count on him, and he surely knows the same goes for her. 

I also thought it said a lot that they would stand around bickering and snipping at each other like two dumb kids, immature and petty, playing the “who’s to blame more” game after a huge screwup. 

“I didn’t break the window, you threw the ball!”

”Well you swung the bat and hit it!” 

Except with them it’s Serena accusing Fred of sexual assault for the first time, finally giving that legalized hideousness its’ true name again, but yet Fred counters back that she is really the responsible one for the attack, he only did what she wanted him to, like he is the hapless, submissive spouse who meekly followed wifey’s orders. 

They both are so lacking in character and substance they collapse in on themselves the second there is trouble, there is a problem, during the times they should be working together, coming up with a plan, a solution.

Instead they crack and shatter, and because neither one is truly trustworthy in regards to the other, they are one another’s worst enemy. 

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I knew she'd go into labor and would not be able to escape. 

But I am still not clear on how she could not get the car out of the garage.  Its seems there would be some way to get the door open, shoot through it, knock it down, something.  Also not sure why she didn't find some different clothes before trying to escape, like anything that doesn't scream "I am a handmaiden".  I know she put the jacket on, but still......

The best part of the show was the Fred and Serena fight.  As mentioned the first real, honest, no holds barred without doublespeak conversation we had heard between them in the present time rather than as a flashback.  Confirmed all the held back resentment we have seen between them over two seasons. 

Not sure why they didn't search the rest of the house though.  Would have loved to see June shoot them both.  Then she could have taken their car and escaped 

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5 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

 

The best part of the show was the Fred and Serena fight.  As mentioned the first real, honest, no holds barred without doublespeak conversation we had heard between them in the present time rather than as a flashback.  Confirmed all the held back resentment we have seen between them over two seasons. 

Not sure why they didn't search the rest of the house though.  Would have loved to see June shoot them both.  Then she could have taken their car and escaped 

My kids and I got a kick out of the argument. What I came away with, too, is that Fred is not quite the evil manipulator that I've thought him to be-he truly does seem to be an ignorant dumbass. That doesn't excuse his actions, doesn't make him less loathable, doesn't make him less complicit or even "good" but it DOES offer some insight into his motivation. I mean, in his own twisted way he truly thought that he was doing something nice for June, ha ha. When he kissed her head and said, "You deserve this", the fucker wasn't being ironic at all. 

God, what a mess. 

Shit like this actually tickles me. 

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I was surprised by the running water.  Wouldn't the pipes be frozen?

 

And why didn't the manual release of the garage door work.  If there was something wrong with it, why didn't June try one of the other doors.   Seemed like with a bit of back-and-forthing, she could have driven the car out one of the other doors.

 

That much blood before the baby comes?  That didn't happen in either of my two labors.  Blood was rampant after the birth when the placenta releases.

Glad June had her moment with her baby.

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5 hours ago, julia1130 said:

 

Many parents and pediatricians dealing with babies in the 1960s-70s (even 80s) - would disagree! I was born in 1980 and my mom said (if driving alone with newborn) she just bundled me up on the seat next to her, and if I rolled on the ground she picked me up... 

I was going to post something similar. Also born in early 1980 something and I never had a car seat growing up. They either put me on someone's lap or rolled up blankets around the seat to keep me from falling out onto the floor. If I was trying to escape my oppressors and keep my kid from becoming Eden 2.0 or, worse, ME then I'd not have let lack of car seat stop me. If June had been stopped, I don't think it would've been the lack of adhering to 21st Century American vehicular law that would've had them dragging her back to town. 

And actually, regarding the labor, she probably could've driven up to a certain point. June seemed to go straight into active labor, unless she'd been in labor for most of the day anyway and we weren't seeing it until they wanted us to. Women can be in labor for days and continue doing regular activities for a while. At 4cm dilated and 60% effaced with contractions every 15 minutes, I was still driving. I didn't KNOW that I was dilated and effaced, so I was just carrying on as normal. People can do all kinds of weird shit when adrenaline kicks in. 

I don't have an issue with June getting the car out, though. Though I agree that she could've used the shovel for leverage, could've cut the wires to get the garage door open, etc., what would she have done once she got it out? There are apparently patrols around there. I don't think she'd have made it far. The whole fakeout escape was eyerolling, though. Oh no! June *almost* escapes again! The nailbiting drama!!

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7 hours ago, alexvillage said:
11 hours ago, chocolatine said:

You can't drive while giving birth, and you can't drive with a newborn without a carseat. At least both the baby and June made it through the birth alive, so that's a positive.

Yes, as others have already said (how DO you remove quotes here?) "a minor problem my dear, at such a time" /Rhett Butler.  Until relatively recently, as history goes, there were no car seats.  bundling the baby up in blanket cushions and putting her on the passenger side floor would probably be safe enough.  She's too little to squirm and fall.

6 hours ago, Becks said:

Then in this episode, in his throwdown with Serena, he actually sounded bewildered and hurt when he said 'Nick wouldn't be disloyal', like the concept had never entered his mind before. He knows Nick fathered 'his' baby, FFS! Are we supposed to believe that Fred has this untapped store of naivete within?

Nick actually saved Fred's ass by impregnating June.  It removed the "sterile" thing, and as we saw last episode, the powers that be seem quite impressed with a Commander siring a child.

6 hours ago, Becks said:

Nevertheless, for me, the best part of the episode was Fred and Serena letting it rip and at last beginning to cannibalize each other. The love is well and truly gone, y'all. After all that's come before, there was something quite satisfying about them letting it out and turning their venom on each other.

Yes, it wasn't the "best" for me, but it was the most fun.

People keep talking about Moss' Emmy reel, but Strahovski and Wiley got PLENTY of mileage in the supporting category out of this episode as well, even Fiennes got great stuff.  Serena Joy's harpy SHRIEKING was simply amazing!  Who knew her voice could do that? 

3 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

My theory about Fred is this, he set June and Nick up to get out of Dodge, gave them enough time to get away then took Serena there to look for them, very weakly look for them, acting like it was an attempt, then hurried Serena out of the house.  So now he can say he tried to find them.  If Fred really did want to find June he would have looked in every room of that house.

It is simply too unbelievable.  Fred has a history with June of pain/horror then his idea of kindness/favors.  The magazines, the lotion, etc.  Fred's walking on ice so thin it's amazing he hasn't fallen through yet.  He knows that, he keeps lying to himself about it, but you can see the nervous tension all season long, and Serena pointed it out in their fight.  Handmaids but no pregnancy until now, the last one committed suicide.  This one has now escaped twice, Aunt Lydia forced to spend a ton of her time managing his house, the Canada fiasco, his buddy's hand being cut off.  He's not, in the least, feeling secure, and his bravado about that is wearing thin.

3 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

And, what was with June firing off the shot gun?

Terrified for her baby, she gave up and signaled for help.  As it turned out, she didn't need it, but it was during the throws of labor so...

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Regarding the world's reaction to Gilead, if Gilead has nuclear power (and what`s left of America doesn't have economic power)  maybe the rest of the world is "okay, well, not our business". Right now there are people being massacred in several parts of the world, there are about 150 millions of slaves in Africa and Asia etc. and tbh, I don't see people in general losing their sleep over that. So maybe Gilead is being watched with the same indifference. 

Yes, I wish the writers would clarify some stuff.  I think they turned off the nuclear power plants, that and the trade embargo explain the limited lighting to me, and so few cars.  They don't have a lot of electricity/fuel to spare.  I think they held on to their nukes as weapons though, and I'm sure the world is wary about that.

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

I was thinking Proust.

Yes!  Thank you!  That was exactly who I was thinking of.  The show needs to stop that shit, they aren't getting 10 freaking seasons out of this unless they move this story along and no one wants to real-time go through everything June does.  Well, they could, if they expand the show beyond Boston.

World build guys or get of the pot.

There are enough handmaid's in Gilead that we care about to keep that side of things going.  Get June at least (book spoiler_

Spoiler

to that damn cabin to make her tapes!  I'm still shocked they didn't have her make the tapes at the Boston Globe, but that's probably a good thing, gives a bit of hope that June makes it to the cabin herself, instead of just the tapes.  I don't really care if she lives, I just want some forward movement and soon.

1 hour ago, Stiggs said:

I wasn't really bothered by where the summer house was - I just assumed it was a somewhat out-of-the-way second home somewhere within their district. Now, under what circumstances everyone ended up there and why it always snows in Gilead, I'm really not sure, but I didn't think twice about the house. I did think, though, that muscle cars don't do well in the snow and worried June would crash into a tree if she did get out. And I laughed my ass off at the wolf/dog (whatever that was supposed to be). I was like, "Of course there's a wolf. Perfect." 

https://www.discovernewengland.org/travel-planning/drive-times-mileage 

How long did Fred tell Nick to drive to get there?  Was it an hour and a half?

Various destinations and the drive time from Boston, of course, with almost no traffic in Gilead, those times would be MUCH faster now, congestion wouldn't be an issue.  I think she was in Maine or New Hampshire.  The lake, the woods, the isolation...if only she had killed Serena and Fred, she could have taken their car and maybe made it to Canada.  That four wheel drive SUV might have had a good chance on logging roads.

According to the "inside the episode" it wasn't a wolf, just a large wild dog.

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

By the way, where do people see previews for the next episode? Everyone's always talking about them and I've never seen a preview.

On Hulu, and usually they are on You Tube as well.  Just look for "promos" on the Hulu site.

BEWARE, every single preview so far has given away serious plot/story.  For example, the one for this episode already spoiled that June couldn't get that car out of the garage.  Also, spoilers abound, it's as if Hulu is giving out the tapes to anyone with a blog, and some are obviously pissed at the show and simply detailing future story right and left all over the place.

The preview for the next episode gives a TON away, pretty much everything we might care about really. 

8 hours ago, LittleRed84 said:

On a positive note- it was nice to have an actress portray a birth scene more realistically- not some squeaking and half-assed pushing resulting in a clean shiny toddler being born. (Yes, the baby needed more vernix to look real, but it was a dark scene.) Elisabeth’s acting during the birth was excellent, (especially from an actress that doesn’t have any children to my knowledge, so has no real life birth experience to draw on). I was very impressed with that part. 

Sadly, the disappointment of the masses regarding the stagnant plot will overshadow her performance this time. 

TWO very realistic birth scenes, that must have been hell for Moss, but she did well. 

Yes, I agree, as a stand alone I liked this episode, but in the context of the season?  No.  Just no.

1 hour ago, DuckyinKy said:

I loved the fight between Fred and SJ. 

Serena: They'll put us on the wall!!
Fred: Yeah? Maybe they'll hang us side by side. Just my fucking luck.

Arguments in Gilead are still humorous. 

It was lovely.  Emmy reel for Serena for sure, and Fred might have stuff for his own reel as well.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Yeah, I can appreciate Elizabeth Moss being awesome, but it seems like an episode thats basically spinning its wheels again. June has the possibility of escape dangled in front of her, and it is probably not going to come to anything. This time, she was stopped by apparently a damn garage door opener. Mostly, I was kind of bored, and just wanted to get on with her doing something that actually means something. We`re getting close to the end of the season people, we gotta get moving onto the plot! Really, I just wanted to know if Nick was alright. Is he dead? In jail? Hung on a wall? Back at the house after making up some bullshit excuse? I want to know! 

The fight between Fred and Serena Joy was definitely the highlight. They are totally in No Fucks mode when it comes to their marriage, and its great. "Maybe they'll hang us side by side! Just my fucking luck!" 

I did love hearing the radio broadcast from Little America, and Junes reaction to it. Was that actually Opera? Thats freaking awesome, and I am going to say that she is playing herself. It sounds like they're continuing to build on the plot with the remaining American government still wielding some power and influence in the world (with even countries like China backing them now) and us wondering what theyre actually doing, as they seem to be making some real moves now. God I hope we`re getting closer to someone actually making a real dent in Gilead, for our sake and the people in the show. Plus, we might get to see Mark from the American government again. He was great in his one scene with SJ. He had an almost old school Hollywood kind of vibe. Stars and Stripes forever baby.

 

Yes, I agree. 

I think the writers/show runner will be aware that he better actually have some forward progress and soon.  This isn't a Proust tale, and no one wants or needs to see day by day until Gilead fails.  It's past time for some resistance fighters for example.  They don't even have to do giant battle scenes, they could focus on the regular American families hiding in the hills, guerilla warfare, show some soldiers defecting to fight with them, show normal relationships between men and women still not giving up the USA to Gilead, for just one example.  Honestly it could all be interiors and conversations and still be effective.  Show us Alaska (easy to dupe from the Canada shooting locations) and more of the CIA guy.  There is a WHOLE WORLD out there reacting to this, I want to SEE that!

Oprah said even stronger blockades and an expanded refugee quota in Canada, details please!  Are other countries helping Canada?  Is Canada shipping some of them to countries in Europe that are offering safe harbor? 

Show us something show, and more than "more misery for handmaids" or you are going to lose your audience.  The additional misery for handmaids is part of the book, but we don't need to ONLY see that.  The Canada episode with Serena and Fred was the best one this season.

I'm going to need a lot more of that kind of thing if I'm going to continue with this next season.  Also, I'm tired of watching Moira and Luke mope.  It's ridiculous at this point, they could and SHOULD be doing more.  Canada was/IS the show's opportunity to show more than just misery, and they are failing. 

36 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

But I am still not clear on how she could not get the car out of the garage.  Its seems there would be some way to get the door open, shoot through it, knock it down, something. 

YES!  The shotgun! 

I get that it's a seriously secure and well built garage, but that shotgun could have done serious damage to that door, or at least the lock(s) but she didn't think of it, which I forgive, but dang girl!

Edited by Umbelina · Reason: typo and added stuff
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5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oprah said even stronger blockades and an expanded refugee quota in Canada, details please!  Are other countries helping Canada?  Is Canada shipping some of them to countries in Europe that are offering safe harbor? 

 

If I remember right, they said the UK was expanding their refugee quotas for Americans, and that Indian and China were both offering financial support to the remaining US government, and other countries were adding more sanctions to Gilead. More of that please! I get it, its awful to be a Handmaiden. We all get it at this point, lets show something else now! World build! Show us some other people living in Gilead, or fighting against it! Show us the American government gaining alleys abroad and in Gilead and preparing to make bigger moves! Honesty, I think it could be interesting to have Gilead fall next season, and have the US be put back together, and focus on how the characters and the country deals with that. How does June deal with becoming June again? How do they reunite families separated by Gilead? Does everyone involved in Gilead get sent to jail? Executed? Can lower level people be let off, like in Reconstruction era south? How does the government rebuild itself? That sounds way more interesting than another season of Handmaiden abuse. 

Yes, its turning into a Proust story! I was just reading him, and as much as I enjoy his writing, the dude can go ON. Often about the same point over and over, like a really intellectual MoJo JoJo from the Powerpuff Girls. "Gilead is bad! It is not a good place! A place that is unpleasant is Gilead! Being a handmaid sucks! It sucks to be a handmaid!"

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9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

If I remember right, they said the UK was expanding their refugee quotas for Americans, and that Indian and China were both offering financial support to the remaining US government, and other countries were adding more sanctions to Gilead. More of that please! I get it, its awful to be a Handmaiden. We all get it at this point, lets show something else now! World build! Show us some other people living in Gilead, or fighting against it! Show us the American government gaining alleys abroad and in Gilead and preparing to make bigger moves! Honesty, I think it could be interesting to have Gilead fall next season, and have the US be put back together, and focus on how the characters and the country deals with that. How does June deal with becoming June again? How do they reunite families separated by Gilead? Does everyone involved in Gilead get sent to jail? Executed? Can lower level people be let off, like in Reconstruction era south? How does the government rebuild itself? That sounds way more interesting than another season of Handmaiden abuse. 

Yes, its turning into a Proust story! I was just reading him, and as much as I enjoy his writing, the dude can go ON. Often about the same point over and over, like a really intellectual MoJo JoJo from the Powerpuff Girls. "Gilead is bad! It is not a good place! A place that is unpleasant is Gilead! Being a handmaid sucks! It sucks to be a handmaid!"

Yes to all of that, I've been saying "world build" since they announced renewal of the show!  I know some are new to this story, but I've had these questions since the eighties!  I was SO hopeful about the expansion, and instead we got this season, and only one episode where the world was shown, a tiny bit.

Total waste of bothering with Luke and Moira's escapes!  DO something!  Screw the flashbacks and PTSD, or at least screw them if that's all we are going to get from them.  We have enough inaction and characters paralyzed in Boston, they are fucking FREE in Canada, that should be the light instead of just more dark.

In the book Gilead

Spoiler

goes on for quite a while, unspecified, but I got the idea of a generation or possibly two, so at least another couple of decades before it implodes and goes down.  It gets progressively worse until then, and no details were given by the odious professor.  June needs to get to that cabin, Emily and Janine can handle the Boston side of Gilead.

I WANT those details!  I want to see the wars, the world response.  The writers positioned Moira and Luke to tell so much of this, they have computers, and TV, and would be being interviewed from journalists all over the world!  Especially Moira!  Gay, made a handmaid, then made a whore in Gilead.  HELLO!  She'd be in every magazine from Alaska to Moscow!

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I didn't recognize Oprah as the radio voice.  But the whole radio broadcast had a nice rebel, protesting, resistance feel to it.  "Stars and stripes forever baby"  Probably the most encouraging line of the whole show so far. 

Although hearing the broadcast and considering things practically, I would think, especially after those letters got out a few episodes back, if there was any doubt about Gilead and their motives and intentions, the whole world must be gearing up for some type of war or fight against Gilead.  Or maybe there just isn't the resources for this?  Or maybe the rest of the governments just consider it America/Gileads own problem to solve? 

Admittedly we don't get any view of things beyond June's, that is the story's point and perspective, so they sort of questions can be nicely avoided and/or ignored easily on the show.  But I still wonder about them

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Who were those guys who abducted Nick?  Maybe they're part of the underground.  Could they be the ones who pulled up at the end of the episode?  I'm just getting tired of seeing June suffer, it's time to move on from that and get her to Canada.

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This wasn't my favorite episode. I'm just going to make a list.

 

The good:

EM's look when she fired the gun knowing she has just ruined her chance of escape. No words necessary I thought this scene was better from an acting standpoint to the birth. 

Fred and Serena ripping each other new assholes. I hope it hurt as much as possible. Serena's distancing herself from June's rape. 

I like that June from Before is not a humanitarian of the year awards candidate. She never fully admitted she crossed a moral line with Luke, and even given the complications of their relationship she was a bit unkind to her mother while she was setting up the birth.

I am a sucker for talking to newborns, even if I am a little suspicious of delivering a goliath NINE POUND baby without help. I liked the contrast between the hospital birth surrounded by friends and family, and the stark, lonely birth at the mansion ("summer home", rich people wtf). 

The bad:

This is partly my fault because I am a spoiler whore.

 

Since the pool scene was in the preview I was expecting Eden and Isaac's crime and punishment to be revealed.

 I get the pregnancy was the focal point of the season/show and why TPTB would want a Birth episode but I felt there could have been some supplementary material.

Waterfuck. As another poster said I used to think he was evil and now I think he has the capacity for committing evil not because he himself is evil but because he is a huge dumbass. While I appreciate the nod to the obliviousness of men in positions of power, he is too stupid for someone who supposedly has been navigating the complexities of attaining wealth and political power for most of his adult life.


Spirit animal/black wolf of protection/wild dog/apex predator threat symbolizing the wildness society has tried to deny and tame. These are all takeaways I've read from comments here and reviews elsewhere. Whatever the fuck it was, if it was even real, it was too much. All I kept thinking was really, do we need a big bad wolf? She wears red, we get it.

 

Again, I understand why they dedicated an episode to the birth but I think there's a way to tell June's story and show us the inner workings of Gilead as a whole (not just handmaid torture porn) without compromising Atwood's intentions. Some of that is the Eden/Isaac thing. Maybe I'm just being bratty because I have to wait a whole week, but whether or not the time has come and gone ITA this episode played like one, long Emmy reel (though I'd add Emmy reel inspired by the movie Castaway). 

Edited by The Mighty Peanut
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15 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Waterfuck. As another poster said I used to think he was evil and now I think he has the capacity for committing evil not because he himself is evil but because he is a huge dumbass. While I appreciate the nod to the obliviousness of men in positions of power, he is too stupid for someone who supposedly has been navigating the complexities of attaining wealth and political power for most of his adult life.

To me, he has been that all along.  Serena Joy was the brains and the star of that family.  Instead of having her be a Commander and Fred as her helpmate though?  It's misogyny and that's one of the problems with Gilead.  Having a penis doesn't mean you are the most qualified.  In addition, I think Fred was pretty happy with his role as "the wind beneath her wings." 

I think when she told him "Be a MAN" after the gunshot, and with all of the power put in his hands as a  Commander, power he could not and did not handle?  His idea of "being a man" meant abusing others, and maybe he did relish that after years of being nothing compared to his wife.  Not only was he not given a choice in that, her words to him after the gunshot ruined them forever anyway.  The role he enjoyed and was suited for (her support) went away, and this is Fred, floundering around now.

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13 hours ago, PepSinger said:

 

While the scene between June and Holly was beautiful, I need this show to move the plot along. My playwriting teacher had a rule where if a scene didn't reveal new information, then it should be cut. What was new information in this episode?

I thought the scene between mother and baby was the formula of every birth in TV.  She looks at the baby  and says Hi!  Nothing new.     

And that rule would have helped the episode last night.  We already know they had normal lives before Gilead.  There was no need to show the boring birth scene from before for comparison.  We already know.  That was wasted time.  I would have liked to see where they brought the driver and what’s up there.  

And June’s neurological twitches are over the top.  She’s a parody. Over acting and they take the viewer out of the scene.  

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4 hours ago, Lemons said:

And June’s neurological twitches are over the top.  She’s a parody. Over acting and they take the viewer out of the scene.  

Elizabeth Moss gets too much credit for her acting, IMO. She's good and has had some superb moments but YS, Ann Dowd, and Samira Wiley are all better and more consistent than she is. Moira wasn't a huge character in the book but wasting Samira like they are is a crime. 

Edited by The Mighty Peanut
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1 hour ago, Ruby said:

Who were those guys who abducted Nick?  Maybe they're part of the underground.  Could they be the ones who pulled up at the end of the episode?  I'm just getting tired of seeing June suffer, it's time to move on from that and get her to Canada.

Honestly, I think this story line will get dropped like many of the others. I DID think that Fred, or even Eden, could be behind setting Nick up. Now I honestly just think that it was a random patrol and he got caught. It will all probably be smoothed over in just a conversation or two. They wanted to get June alone so that she could deliver by herself so they just wrote in a couple of dudes patrolling the road and catching Nick. They'll talk, Fred will make some shit up, and Nick will go home. 

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2 hours ago, DrSpaceman said:

I knew she'd go into labor and would not be able to escape. 

But I am still not clear on how she could not get the car out of the garage.  Its seems there would be some way to get the door open, shoot through it, knock it down, something.  Also not sure why she didn't find some different clothes before trying to escape, like anything that doesn't scream "I am a handmaiden".  I know she put the jacket on, but still......

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:YES!  The shotgun! 

 

I get that it's a seriously secure and well built garage, but that shotgun could have done serious damage to that door, or at least the lock(s) but she didn't think of it, which I forgive, but dang girl!

 

 

1

(Lordy I think I screwed up those quotes, apologies...)

I was shocked when she didn't try to shoot the lock off the garage door - I've obviously watched waaaaaay too many cop shows, because it seemed like a no-brainer to me. Then again, if she had been any kind of a shot (which I doubt she was) killing Serena & Fred and taking off in their SUV would have been awesome. But I can't hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun, I would have missed them both by a mile. 

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1 hour ago, DrSpaceman said:

I didn't recognize Oprah as the radio voice.  But the whole radio broadcast had a nice rebel, protesting, resistance feel to it.  "Stars and stripes forever baby"  Probably the most encouraging line of the whole show so far. 

 

1

I thought it odd that a Commander's car would have the radio tuned to the "Little America" station.

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4 minutes ago, Stiggs said:

(Lordy I think I screwed up those quotes, apologies...)

I was shocked when she didn't try to shoot the lock off the garage door - I've obviously watched waaaaaay too many cop shows, because it seemed like a no-brainer to me. Then again, if she had been any kind of a shot (which I doubt she was) killing Serena & Fred and taking off in their SUV would have been awesome. But I can't hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun, I would have missed them both by a mile. 

She's have to shoot from inside, or she'd damage the car.

It's pretty hard to miss a garage door with a shotgun from 4 feet away. 

I honestly think she simply didn't think of it.  Considering she was in labor, and did so many other things right, like gathering supplies and clothes this time?  I can overlook that.  But DANG. 

Honestly I didn't think of it until someone here mentioned it, so I can't harangue June about it.  Also?  I should have!

1 minute ago, deSchenke said:

I thought it odd that a Commander's car would have the radio tuned to the "Little America" station.

Maybe he hates Gilead too?   Or his job is  to keep an eye on what the outside world is saying?

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6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She's have to shoot from inside, or she'd damage the car.

It's pretty hard to miss a garage door with a shotgun from 4 feet away. 

I honestly think she simply didn't think of it.  Considering she was in labor, and did so many other things right, like gathering supplies and clothes this time?  I can overlook that.  But DANG. 

Honestly I didn't think of it until someone here mentioned it, so I can't harangue June about it.  Also?  I should have!

Maybe he hates Gilead too?   Or his job is  to keep an eye on what the outside world is saying?

Heh, I meant I would have missed shooting Serena and Fred when they were arguing - hopefully, I could hit a garage door from 4 feet away, but I'm not guaranteeing anything, lol. 

And I agree - she just wasn't thinking and I'm armchair quarterbacking a handmaid. Heck, I get retail panic when I can't find something in Publix and wind up leaving without cereal, so I can't imagine where her brain had to be. 

One of the few friends I have who watch this show and I are "arguing" over whether we were supposed to know that was Oprah or not. I was like, "Everybody knows Oprah's voice!" and she was like, "I didn't till you told me it was her!" Either way, I loved it. It was a bright spot in the stress and sadness. (And I think June changed the radio dial until she got a signal? I may need to watch again...and fast forward through the birth scenes because once was enough.)

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10 minutes ago, Stiggs said:

Heh, I meant I would have missed shooting Serena and Fred when they were arguing - hopefully, I could hit a garage door from 4 feet away, but I'm not guaranteeing anything, lol. 

And I agree - she just wasn't thinking and I'm armchair quarterbacking a handmaid. Heck, I get retail panic when I can't find something in Publix and wind up leaving without cereal, so I can't imagine where her brain had to be. 

One of the few friends I have who watch this show and I are "arguing" over whether we were supposed to know that was Oprah or not. I was like, "Everybody knows Oprah's voice!" and she was like, "I didn't till you told me it was her!" Either way, I loved it. It was a bright spot in the stress and sadness. (And I think June changed the radio dial until she got a signal? I may need to watch again...and fast forward through the birth scenes because once was enough.)

I didn't get it was Oprah's voice either. I honestly thought it was Moira, so there you have it. But I was SO irked by the episode to that point, all I could think of was ways I'd use to get the door open. The shotgun being top of the list.

The black wolf and her being Little Red Riding Hood...was just dumb. I HATED this episode, because I just knew she was going to give birth, and she was going to get caught. No happy ending for June. I did think for a moment when she was bleeding everywhere, not having had a baby myself, thought she had Abruptio Placenta or Placenta Previa, and was going to give birth and die of blood loss.  Then I thought she was going to shoot herself with the shotgun, not use it as a flare. Honestly I came away from this episode simply pissed off.  Baby goes to the Waterfucks (wonderful name, whoever coined it!) and June...will be sad somewhere. That's all I got out of this plodding, long series of vignettes.

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Ok... again with the overhead garage door... this was overkill on the part of the writers. June HAD THE KEYS. Those garage door handles are the kind that have locks with places to put KEYS in them. June is never shown putting a key in one of them. You must unlock the door to open it. She had access to the inside, and never tries to unlock it from there, either.

June only tries to open the one garage door. There are two other doors. It would be difficult, but not impossible to move the car out of the door next to it, and she didn't even bother to try it. And if I had to do it to get away from the Waterfords, I would manage it.

June thought of shooting the Waterfords. She thought of shooting the wolf/dog. She thought of shooting the gun in the air to call for help. But she didn't think of shooting the lock loose?

The writers shot a hole in the plot big enough for June to drive though.

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3 hours ago, deSchenke said:

 

And why didn't the manual release of the garage door work.  If there was something wrong with it, why didn't June try one of the other doors.   Seemed like with a bit of back-and-forthing, she could have driven the car out one of the other doors.


.

this is exactly what I was thinking...there were two other doors to try.

I thought this was a boring, waste of time.  I actually fast forwarded thru much of the struggles outside and the child birth....I didn't miss much.

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16 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I thought the door was frozen to the ground and that's why she couldn't open it.

It was, and presumably trying the door from the inside wasn't enough to get it open. However the fact that we're all talking about was it frozen, could she have shot the lock, could she have opened it manually, could she have broken the ice, means the scene wasn't done very well. Especially since we all know the answer is because it's a TV show. They kind of rode on Holly giving the episode its substance, and got lazy. In my oft-wrong opinion, anyway.

Edited by The Mighty Peanut
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By the way, where do people see previews for the next episode? Everyone's always talking about them and I've never seen a preview.

I saw the preview on SpoilerTV.com, which typically shows the promo when the current episode drops on Hulu.

I wasn't bothered by June's not shooting out the garage door because I imagined she was worried about ricochet, which would not make for a great complication to birth-in-the-wild-attended-by-wolf.

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11 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Yes. Yes. No.

Big NO.   What an awful episode.   I don't value "Elisabeth Moss Grunts and Makes Faces" as good acting or good writing.   The only true performance in this episode came from the Waterfords, which was like "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?: Gilead Edition."   I would much rather watch a show about the Waterfords -- a true believer couple gradually realizes that the dystopia they helped to create is fucked at its core -- than this insipid and pointless Elizabeth Moss vanity project.  

June isn't even a likable character, either in her present Offred existence or Before.    I don't know what Luke and Moira saw in her.

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4 minutes ago, millennium said:

Big NO.   What an awful episode.   I don't value "Elisabeth Moss Grunts and Makes Faces" as good acting or good writing.   The only true performance in this episode came from the Waterfords, which was like "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?: Gilead Edition."   I would much rather watch a show about the Waterfords -- a true believer couple gradually realizes that the dystopia they helped to create is fucked at its core -- than this insipid and pointless Elizabeth Moss vanity project.  

June isn't even a likable character, either in her present Offred existence or Before.    I don't know what Luke and Moira saw in her.

Praise be.

Its like Orange is the new black, everyone BUT Piper is more interesting. 

The highlight of this episode was the Waterford’s screaming at each other. I root for their downfall in every single episode and want to see Serena pay in brutal ways for what she has done, but that’s  because she is such a fantastic villain and has elevated every scene to masterful levels. 

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