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S02.E08: Women's Work

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9 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

This could be the thing that makes her wake up and rise up...the taste of what the others get may be the catalyst for her to start a revolution.  

The tide will turn with or without Serena but it would be something if she could participate in the change.  

 

It’d be the bare minimum, the very least she could do in my eyes, and it’s something she definitely needs to try to do without hesitation if given an opportunity.

Many a regime has been brought down or helped to be brought down by someone on the inside.

I do think that absolutely her pride was wounded by what happened in the office, the way that she feels about Fred has definitely been impacted, and it is certainly something that she will never forget and more than likely never forgive.

Honestly I would not mind that sort of breakdown in the future, but once a liberation or uprising had occurred I would absolutely hope and expect for her to be held accountable as the war criminal that she has been, for all the lives lost because of her, for all the devastation and destruction of countless families and innocent victims that Gilead targeted. 

 I do not believe that there is truly anyway for Serena to earn a pass or reprieve or ultimately forgiveness for what she’s done, there should be a clear and definitive and permanent punishment for her for what she actively brought about and the things she has done since Gilead took over.

 Watching her get belted makes her look human because frankly she is, she isn’t a mystical monster of some kind, 

But, for me, that does not replace, for example, the image of a woman who flew into a rage and choked her pregnant handmaid, the same pregnant handmaid that she forced to sleep with her driver because she was determined to get a baby at all cost.

Serena has done far too much of her fair share, IMO, of using Gilead’s system and law enforcement for her own benefit. If she were to help bring it down then she needs to be brought down right along side. 

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1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

This could be the thing that makes her wake up and rise up...the taste of what the others get may be the catalyst for her to start a revolution.  

The tide will turn with or without Serena but it would be something if she could participate in the change.  

I would like to see that as well. I think a storyline about someone being a part in the original formation of Gilead finally seeing the monster they unleashed and then helping to destroy it would be a fine storyline. I believe that, unlike Fred or some of the other commanders, SJ is redeemable. She does appear to see at least some of the injustices, unlike others who don't seem to see them at all. Doesn't mean I like her, but in a story arc kind of way I could definitely get onboard with an SJ redemption arc if that's the way the writers decide to go. However, I could just as easily see her getting sent to the Colonies or Jezebel's and I'd be fine with that storyline as well. 

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11 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I wonder what will happen with the baby?  Surely she won't be given back?   Would Serena be given charge?

 

I think they will probably give her back, not even the doctors can say that they technically made her sick.

More than likely with that bunch of nutballs they’re just going to claim that their prayers were answered and all that bullshit. 

 Serena has no claim on the child either way, if the regime did step in she’d probably be placed outside of that group with another family. 

Other than the rehoming of children like Hannah or the little boy that belonged to Omar and his wife, there has not yet been any talk about the removal or replacement of a child had by a Handmaid, as far as we’ve seen the children produced by the system have been kept with their “parents”, and I use the term very loosely in this instance.

 

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Yeah the handmaid's undergarments are *seriously* unsexy!

 

Their whole costume is in my eyes.

The focus is placed on their red color and huge bonnets, everything else about them is loose fitting, without any embellished details, the boots are plain, and when they’re in the house June is often seen wearing a red sweatshirt from the looks of it which is also baggy and frumpy. 

 I actually took note of the underwear set Serena had on as well when she stripped down after the belting scene, and definitely those were very modern undergarments that were cute and sexy, and offered her no protection from what Fred inflicted on her.

If she had been wearing something similar to the handmaids she would have, at least, gotten a bit more blocking from them. 

It was another way her so-called privilege cost her in this situation.

 

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I do think he had to scare a bit. If he hadn't she might have kept digging. As twisted as it is Nick needs Eden to be afraid of him. That way she won't ask so many questions.

 

I agree, sadly Nick basically has to parent his baby bride and fear is a commonly used tactic by parents on children. 

 He can’t just sit this girl down at the dinner table and explain to her that everything she’s been taught and believes is a total lie, he has to be smart about keeping her in line before she does something stupid. 

They don’t know each other well enough for trust to exist, I feel, and I think that’s why Nick being nice to her just wouldn’t be enough, because he was being decent to her before and she still was thinking about turning him in as a gender traitor just because he didn’t have sex with her.

 She apparently didn’t think it might be a good idea to ask him if they could talk or have a conversation about things, or any sort of mature reaction to the fact that he just met her days ago and that was at their wedding ceremony, no, this kid went straight to the “he won’t bone me so I guess he’s gay and I need to tell somebody even though they’re going to kill him for it no questions asked”. 

Who could afford to trust someone after that? 

 With so many of the leaders in Gilead on alert because of the attack, things are even more triggering then they would be normally.

Nick has to keep a low profile or he could bring the whole household down with him. He can’t put them all at risk in good conscience, especially June and their baby.

I am not saying that Nick has to constantly bark orders at her or shun her and make her feel unwanted or unliked, but I do think that he has to know that at times, such is in the situation with the letters, he is going to have to be stern and is going to have to be direct and seem mean as it were so that she will not defy him. 

 Her feelings might get hurt a little bit at least she will be alive. 

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As much as the progression of Serena as a character is fascinating, I have to comment on a previous post that was made about the evolution of Fred's character. Specifically, that compared to Serena, Fred was more "milquetoast" when Gilead was being planned out. Now, the "true Fred" has been coming out because Gilead grants him privileges as Commander that many other inhabitants do not have. I totally agree. Fred seems much more ruthless now than even Season 1. I'm wondering where this is leading for him.

Edited by madpsych78
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30 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

As much as the progression of Serena as a character is fascinating, I have to comment on a previous post that was made about the evolution of Fred's character. Specifically, that compared to Serena, Fred was more "milquetoast" when Gilead was being planned out. Now, the "true Fred" has been coming out because Gilead grants him privileges as Commander that many other inhabitants do not have. I totally agree. Fred seems much more ruthless now than even Season 1. I'm wondering where this is leading for him.

 

 

“To hell I hope”. 

Heh, that’s a line from the movie “The Ten Commandments”. I just could not help myself, I am that movie nerd, 

But in all seriousness, that would be a great place to start with for me. 

 As far as the show goes, I definitely think that since Fred is one of the key cornerstones of Gilead, he is going to play a major role in its’ downfall. And I think the starting point is being established in these sorts of episodes. 

Watching him in this episode, he is showing signs of himself that are inexcusably cruel and inhumane.

He is not even bothering to try and seem fair or decent or secretly loving and kind and considerate, he is casting aside the need to pretend that he gives a shit about anyone’s pain or discomfort or even their very life, as he did with baby Charlotte, even in regards to his own wife, if necessary he will make her feel incredible pain and humiliation and grief and sorrow if that’s what it takes to get his way.

 To me he seems desperate for as much power and control as he can get, more than ever before in fact. 

 The attack definitely is playing mind games with him, his smug arrogance took a huge hit when the center was attacked, under his watch things totally fell apart in a way that they never were supposed to in the grand scheme of things, and I am sure there is been a lot of finger-pointing and blame being laid near or at his feet and it is making him paranoid first and foremost. 

I am thinking it wasn’t just Andrew that was his only ally lost in the explosion, so Fred is probably looking at a remaining group of commanders and other high-ranking officials that he is not nearly as friendly or shall we say well-connected with, and with someone like him that is very concerning, just as we witnessed in episode seven, these sort of men circle each other like vultures and they are more than ready to feast on weakness. 

 It is if he fears just the thought of things returning to the way they used to be, when he felt so inferior and far less dominant and when he was under the control and will of others, he is trying to qualm his own fears by preying on those closest to him because they are easy targets to get his frustrations out on, making them afraid instead, making them cower and submit. Then he can feel better, powerful, and superior.

He needs to feel in control, he needs to believe that he is lord and master of his domain, whether at home or whether as a high-ranking commander, he will not feel nor be treated less than what he deserves.

 Of course to me what he deserves is to be dropped into a hot, boiling vat of oil but you know, I am attempting to see things from his point of view, if only for a few minutes 

Edited by AnswersWanted
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28 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

It is if he fears just the thought of things returning to the way they used to be, when he felt so inferior and far less dominant and when he was under the control and will of others, he is trying to qualm his own fears by preying on those closest to him because they are easy targets to get his frustrations out on, making them afraid instead, making them cower and submit. Then he can feel better, powerful, and superior.

He needs to feel in control, he needs to believe that he is lord and master of his domain, whether at home or whether as a high-ranking commander, he will not feel nor be treated less than what he deserves.

 Of course to me what he deserves is to be dropped into a hot, boiling vat of oil but you know

You just know that before, he was a dickless little "yes-man" subservient to anyone he felt to be above him, kissing his boss' ass and fuming inside at his ineffectualness. Now, he can really let loose,  and be the dominant alpha male of his fantasy, the big man in charge, while he terrorizes, threaten, beats and rapes his houseful of cringing women. I really want to see him suffer. A lot.

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39 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

You just know that before, he was a dickless little "yes-man" subservient to anyone he felt to be above him, kissing his boss' ass and fuming inside at his ineffectualness. Now, he can really let loose,  and be the dominant alpha male of his fantasy, the big man in charge, while he terrorizes, threaten, beats and rapes his houseful of cringing women. I really want to see him suffer. A lot.

I also think the explosion scared him and he's wrestling between feeling his mortality and wondering if God personally spared him. His sense of personal power is a little off balance and it's affecting his home life, so what choice does he have except the time honored tradition of beating his wife? 

Muzzled and strangling for breath on the wall is too kind a fate for him. 

I am allowing myself to be manipulated by the editing. Is admitting it the first step, I hope? When SJ tortured June by showing her Hannah I put her name firmly in my "needs to die" column. Now I'm starting to want better for her, IF she goes full rebel. She can't keep flirting with both sides.

Edited by The Mighty Peanut
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It is still possible that Naomi may be abusing the baby. If she was giving the baby something that made her sick, she would be unable to do so in the closely monitored hospital setting. The baby would seemingly get better, be discharged, and the cycle continues.

we see this sometimes with Munchausen by proxy patients-the parents are able to make them sick at home, and when they get into the supervised hospital setting, they are unable to do so any longer. The parents are savvy, and do things that are undetectable or unlikely to be tested for by physicians (altering their story in such a way that lowers suspicion for certain things we might normally evaluate.)

 

Not to get into the semantics of it, but Naomi is more likely guilty of abuse and neglect, not Munchausen by proxy. Munchausen by proxy is by definition inducing or fabricating a state of illness generally in an attempt to garner attention or leverage sympathy from others (people setting up fraudulent go fund me drives, defining themselves by their child’s mystery illness, etc.) Naomi is so unwilling to admit she might need help or support-whereas Munchausen by proxy parents generally cultivate and abuse all the help and support they can get...often exhausting their welcome.

anyway, just wanted to drop in and say, I definitely still think there is an element of abuse going on in the Ofwarren household!

Edited by WTEngel
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I was expecting Serena to give a "God told me to" excuse to Fred, something like, I prayed on it and God guided me to bring the Martha to Angela.  I wonder how that would have played out?  Would Fred have still beaten her?  I would think in that type of society "God willed it" would be the go-to excuse for bending any rule. 

 

A few episodes ago, I think in the one with the skeet shooting scene, people were wondering if Fred was either not a true Gilead believer and/or part of Mayday because of his desire to go up to Canada.  I think this episode dispenses with that theory - I can't imagine him going through with that type of punishment if he weren't 100% in with Gilead. 

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14 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

To say that the bible is filled with things that someone could use in an oppressive totalitarian society is an understatement, just like many religious texts.

Well yeah, the Bible was written by mortal men mostly in other centuries when women's emancipation was unheard of.  What else would you expect?  I'm no expert but I suspect the Koran and other religious books all say exactly the same thing.  Whether any of them are the word of God is open to interpretation and, as far as I'm concerned, they are not because no one has ever seen God or spoken to him.  We only have men who say they spoke to him and have managed to convince others that they did so.  

 

14 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

She was not merely writing about a certain perspective and it was not a perspective that has anything to do with 2018 or the 2000s at all, it was through the 70s and 80s when she wrote this book.

Having grown up in the 70's and 80's I can't say it ever occurred to me this world would ever come into being, lol.  In fact, I think freedom of speech was a hell of a lot freer then than it is now that we all have to bow to the abominable politically correct.

Of course Fred would use quotes from the Bible to justify not only what he does to his wife but to justify his whole lifestyle including the rape of women.  He's a clerygman after all  (that is, I presume the Commanders are some type of higher-ups in the religious community?) and his type always use religion to control the masses.  Power always corrupts after all and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  That is why I think Fred is just coming into his own as he is realising there are really no constraints to his power within his household, at least.  As we saw when Serena saved him, other Commander(s) were making a play for his position.  There must be a constant jockeying for the positions of power as there usually is within any political structure.

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1 hour ago, WTEngel said:

It is still possible that Naomi may be abusing the baby. If she was giving the baby something that made her sick, she would be unable to do so in the closely monitored hospital setting. The baby would seemingly get better, be discharged, and the cycle continues.

we see this sometimes with Munchausen by proxy patients-the parents are able to make them sick at home, and when they get into the supervised hospital setting, they are unable to do so any longer. The parents are savvy, and do things that are undetectable or unlikely to be tested for by physicians (altering their story in such a way that lowers suspicion for certain things we might normally evaluate.)

 

Not to get into the semantics of it, but Naomi is more likely guilty of abuse and neglect, not Munchausen by proxy. Munchausen by proxy is by definition inducing or fabricating a state of illness generally in an attempt to garner attention or leverage sympathy from others (people setting up fraudulent go fund me drives, defining themselves by their child’s mystery illness, etc.) Naomi is so unwilling to admit she might need help or support-whereas Munchausen by proxy parents generally cultivate and abuse all the help and support they can get...often exhausting their welcome.

anyway, just wanted to drop in and say, I definitely still think there is an element of abuse going on in the Ofwarren household!

I truly think that the abuse and neglect just boils down to disinterest in the child and I think that's the point the show was trying to make with Janine-that children need love and care to thrive and that in this particular situation the baby was much better off with her natural mother, even though that mother was considered tainted or whatever. 

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I can't imagine Fred was ever a clergyman.  I don't think we know what he did before Gilead, but the indications are something in business, maybe even design construction, since they put him in charge of the new Handmaid's Center construction, design, and ceremony.  He's also been working on finances and trade issues when we've seen him work.

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56 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Well yeah, the Bible was written by mortal men mostly in other centuries when women's emancipation was unheard of.  What else would you expect?  I'm no expert but I suspect the Koran and other religious books all say exactly the same thing.  Whether any of them are the word of God is open to interpretation and, as far as I'm concerned, they are not because no one has ever seen God or spoken to him.  We only have men who say they spoke to him and have managed to convince others that they did so.  

 

Having grown up in the 70's and 80's I can't say it ever occurred to me this world would ever come into being, lol.  In fact, I think freedom of speech was a hell of a lot freer then than it is now that we all have to bow to the abominable politically correct.

Of course Fred would use quotes from the Bible to justify not only what he does to his wife but to justify his whole lifestyle including the rape of women.  He's a clerygman after all  (that is, I presume the Commanders are some type of higher-ups in the religious community?) and his type always use religion to control the masses.  Power always corrupts after all and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  That is why I think Fred is just coming into his own as he is realising there are really no constraints to his power within his household, at least.  As we saw when Serena saved him, other Commander(s) were making a play for his position.  There must be a constant jockeying for the positions of power as there usually is within any political structure.

 

From the time before there’s a scene during season one where Fred once came home wearing what looked like to me a white lab coat. 

In the show there’s never been any indication that he was overtly religious or any sort of religious leader at all. He even got corrected once by Andrew for misquoting a bible verse. 

I am no believer of any religion nor do I take stalk in any religious text, though I have read and studied most of them, so my view of any and all such things is pessimistic at best, that’s all.

The way Atwood used religion and human nature however to craft Gilead is all that interests me. 

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What I understood @Earlwoode to be saying in their post was not that Fred was clergy in the traditional sense, or in the past, but that in the structure of Gilead the Commanders are also given clergy-like roles. It's possible they were; we don't know since the show hasn't really gotten into the intricacies of the political structure, but it did show a Commander going the marriage ceremony so it's possible that, since they're tearing down the churches, they have created some kind of political system where the higher ups hold both political and religious titles. 

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2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

What I understood @Earlwoode to be saying in their post was not that Fred was clergy in the traditional sense, or in the past, but that in the structure of Gilead the Commanders are also given clergy-like roles. It's possible they were; we don't know since the show hasn't really gotten into the intricacies of the political structure, but it did show a Commander going the marriage ceremony so it's possible that, since they're tearing down the churches, they have created some kind of political system where the higher ups hold both political and religious titles. 

Yes, that isn’t exactly what I meant.  I’m sorry but this world makes no sense: the coup was supposedly delivered  by an ultra  right wing, deeply religious group which somehow convinces the armed forces that killing people for no reason and shooting and raping women is ok; but the people who helped set it up -Fred and Serena to name a few -are not religious at all and just pay lip service to the religious cause.  You would think that clergymen or pastors or whatever would be at the top of the food chain but, nope, they are nowhere near and we never actually see any of them go to church.  And then someone else says this whole system was just set up to basically oppress women.  Umm, what kind of sense does that make?  So all of the hundreds of thousands of men who supposedly support this regime are quite happy to have their mothers, wives, daughters, sisters and all female relatives basically oppressed?  And please, don’t tell me that everyone lives in fear underneath a dictatorship because the problem is that you have to have  quite a lot of basic support in order to set up a regime like this.  Hitler may have set up a dictatorship but he was supported by a majority of German, at least in the beginning. And the Gilead timeline just hasn’t has enough time pass yet for that support to wither away.  Judging by Hannah’s age, no more than a year and a half (two, tops) have passed since the coup.  So while the acting and storyline are quite compelling and enjoyable, I do not find this at all credible due to the enormous inconsistencies.

BTW, people have speculated on what Aunt Lydia did before the coup.  I’m inclined to think she was a prison warden.  Any ideas?

Edited by Earlwoode
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11 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Yes, that isn’t exactly what I meant.  I’m sorry but this world makes no sense: the coup was supposedly delivered  by an ultra  right wing, deeply religious group which somehow convinces the armed forces that killing people for no reason and shooting and raping women is ok; but the people who helped set it up -Fred and Serena to name a few -are not religious at all and just pay lip service to the religious cause.  You would think that clergymen or pastors or whatever would be at the top of the food chain but, nope, they are nowhere near and we never actually see any of them go to church.  And then someone else says this whole system was just set up to basically oppress women.  Umm, what kind of sense does that make?  So all of the hundreds of thousands of men who supposedly support this regime are quite happy to have their mothers, wives, daughters, sisters and all female relatives basically oppressed?  And please, don’t tell me that everyone lives in fear underneath a dictatorship because the problem is that you have to have  quite a lot of basic support in order to set up a regime like this.  Hitler may have set up a dictatorship but he was supported by a majority of German, at least in the beginning. And the Gilead timeline just hasn’t has enough time pass yet for that support to wither away.  Judging by Hannah’s age, no more than a year and a half (two, tops) have passed since the coup.  So while the acting and storyline are quite compelling and enjoyable, I do not find this at all credible due to the enormous inconsistencies.

BTW, people have speculated on what Aunt Lydia did before the coup.  I’m inclined to think she was a prison warden.  Any ideas?

I have a few beefs with inconsistencies as well. If I can get them to be coherent I'll head over to the "things we don't like" thread. 

As far as Aunt Lydia...girls' boarding school director? Midwife? Nun? School principal? Devoted and religious spinster with zero power or control before the war but who always secretly yearned to call CPS on all her neighbors and left angry notes on people's cars when they parked too close to the line?

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3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

As far as Aunt Lydia...girls' boarding school director? Midwife? Nun? School principal? Devoted and religious spinster with zero power or control before the war but who always secretly yearned to call CPS on all her neighbors and left angry notes on people's cars when they parked too close to the line

Haha at the parking warden.  I thought of nun (mother superior) but she would have been offed as a Catholic. School principal or headmistress is a good one. You do ‘t get that commanding voice overnight.  The actress is outstanding in the role.  She gives me nightmares,  lol.

Edited by Earlwoode
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43 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Haha at the parking warden.  I thought of nun (mother superior) but she would have been offed as a Catholic. School principal or headmistress is a good one. You do ‘t get that commanding voice overnight.  The actress is outstanding in the role.  She gives me nightmares,  lol.

I love Ann Dowd in this role. The way she makes me despise her, yet kind of love her, within the same 5-minute span is incredible. In this episode, especially. I don't know that I would buy her going along with sneaking in a Martha yet the joy and concern on her face looked real and she seems to have genuine concern and some kind of affection for Janine. I mean, she'd probably kill her if she thought that it was in Janine's best interest, but she'd feel bad doing it. 

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11 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I love Ann Dowd in this role. The way she makes me despise her, yet kind of love her, within the same 5-minute span is incredible. In this episode, especially. I don't know that I would buy her going along with sneaking in a Martha yet the joy and concern on her face looked real and she seems to have genuine concern and some kind of affection for Janine. I mean, she'd probably kill her if she thought that it was in Janine's best interest, but she'd feel bad doing it. 

It seemed to me that only Serena and the other doctor knew about Dr. Martha coming in.  I don't think Naomi, Warren or Lydia knew she was there, as the consult/tests were behind the scenes.  I could be remembering wrong, but I don't think Dr. Martha was ever in the room with anyone but Serena.

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16 hours ago, mamadrama said:

As far as Aunt Lydia...

I keep seeing her at the Department of Motor Vehicles.

One of the ironies of Lydia is that she oppresses woman while having a job herself. She has more power and agency than Serena Joy, which obviously grates at SJ.

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On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:14 PM, AnswersWanted said:

As for current day Gilead, no, no female is allowed schooling of any sort, women are not even allowed to read or write.

if you notice, there are no words on signs - the shops and the delivery truck that June escaped in all have pictorial symbols instead of words.  Can't have words just sitting around where women might read them.  That's one reason why it was shocking/forbidden for Fred to play scrabble with June, and for her to have words scratched into her closet wall.

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On 6/11/2018 at 6:30 PM, Umbelina said:

That baby, Charlotte/Angela is actually the biological child of the Commander with the cold wife, so I can't see too many ways that it's "given away" to someone else. The Commander lost a hand before though, because he was having an affair with Janine and promising her that he was going to marry her, so who knows?

I wonder what will happen?  They certainly can't put Janine back in that house to care for Charlotte/Angela.  The wife wouldn't stand for it, and I'm pretty sure someone would consider that tempting the Commander as well.  I suppose they could suggest they give the baby to another family.  After all, that dude certainly doesn't want to be on Gilead's bad side again.  Now, you've got me curious.

Sorry, don't know what you mean.

 

Janine is the mother of that child, via the ceremony. The affair was that he was having sex with her outside the ceremony. We had whole scenes of Janine nursing Charlotte. Naomi did NOT give birth to her.  The cold wife cannot have children anymore than Serena can. Janine was devastated when they took Charlotte away.

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9 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Sorry, don't know what you mean.

 

Janine is the mother of that child, via the ceremony.

The first time through, I was as confused as you with the comment. But I think she meant that Charlotte/Angela is the biological child of the Commander (the one with the cold wife). Not that the cold wife was the biological mother.

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17 minutes ago, dleighg said:

The first time through, I was as confused as you with the comment. But I think she meant that Charlotte/Angela is the biological child of the Commander (the one with the cold wife). Not that the cold wife was the biological mother.

Oh I see, the child of the commander, the one with the cold wife.... not the commander and the cold wife... LOL

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On 6/9/2018 at 1:04 PM, hardy har said:

 

 

Outside of this show, I've only seen Yvonne Strahovski in CHUCK and DEXTER. CHUCK was very frothy and fun with a sprinkling of serious stuff on occasion. Most of the press about her was about how good-looking she was, but she fucking brought it on that show. DEXTER was a goddamn shitshow by the time she got there, but she was good in spite of what she was given. I thought she was really under appreciated last Season and she's killing it this time around. Whenever this show ends, I hope she gets more quality stuff to do. 

 

Same here, although I only watched Dexter back in March/April. I hated the whole "true love" thing, for reasons I won't go into here, because the thread isn't for that show. I remember first seeing her in Chuck, back in 2007? And stupidly assuming that she was just another gorgeous blonde. I ended up loving her in that role, and she's excellent in this one. 

Both Serena, and her character in Dexter, have greenhouses. I think of the other character, whenever she's tending to her plants.

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8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Sorry, don't know what you mean.

 

Janine is the mother of that child, via the ceremony. The affair was that he was having sex with her outside the ceremony. We had whole scenes of Janine nursing Charlotte. Naomi did NOT give birth to her.  The cold wife cannot have children anymore than Serena can. Janine was devastated when they took Charlotte away.

 

8 hours ago, dleighg said:

The first time through, I was as confused as you with the comment. But I think she meant that Charlotte/Angela is the biological child of the Commander (the one with the cold wife). Not that the cold wife was the biological mother.

Yes, I could have used the parentheses there or at least a comma!  Thank you!

That's what I get for forgetting the Putnam's name.

Sorry for the confusion.

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On 11/06/2018 at 5:04 AM, NoSpam said:

It's not about fertility, really. It's about subjugation of women. The handmade system was put in place to give the fertile women to the powerful men -- not to the most likely to be fertile men.

This show is weird sometimes. It seems odd that Fred can use the bible to justify beating his wife but can't find a justification to allow him to have sex with his wife.

Also when took position on the chair I really thought he was going to hit the strap across her hands.

On 11/06/2018 at 10:16 AM, greekmom said:

2.       Both Aunt Lydia and June are calling Janine by her first name even though she is assigned to another commander but June is still Offred.

At first i thought that was an error, but Aunt Lydia is one of the most interesting and well rounded characters in the show. She is also one of the only 100% true believers of all the characters. So i am thinking she just put aside the Gilead rules that she may or may not think bullshit because she believes in her faith and sees the birth of a baby as a miracle.

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I am not on board with them trying to make us feel bad for Serena. She made her bed, and its clear she regretted how far it went, but since her response was to abuse everyone below her instead of trying to fix things (in small or large ways), I have no sympathy for her. Her time to redeem herself was before this. At minimum she could have avoided abusing everyone around her and tried to help them in small ways, or she could have run away, or joined the resistance, or something along those lines. It’s a little late now for the show to want us to sympathize with her. She’s the epitome of selfishness. She cares when SHE gets hit but not when much more horrible things happen to others. 

 

Do you think Fred has hit her before?

 

Are we supposed to think Angela had some sort of failure to thrive due to lack of love? I think that is plausible, but an overnight cure is not. The last few episodes have been less and less believable... 

 

Serena having June help her write while June is still basically her prisoner and slave reminded me of the movie The Shawshank Redemption, when 

Spoiler

the warden has the main prisoner character doing all this tax evasion stuff but when he turns out to be innocent, the warden hides it to keep him enslaved. 

Edited by LeGrandElephant
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2 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Do you think Fred has hit her before?

Some disagree, but I think he has.  She certainly knew what she was supposed to do when he put that chair out.  I wouldn't have known.  Is he going to sit down and have me across his lap for a beating?  Am I supposed to put my hands up there for a hand-beating?  She seemed to know exactly what position to assume.

That may have just been bad writing or directing though.

2 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Are we supposed to think Angela had some sort of failure to thrive due to lack of love? I think that is plausible, but an overnight cure is not. The last few episodes have been less and less believable... 

Yes.  That was what the doctor implied, but could not say outright without insulting the Commander and his Wife and thus risking punishment.

Babies who are finally held and loved have shown remarkable recovery.  I even know personally the story of a preemie who was dying "they couldn't find a vein" anymore.  She's now a beautiful young woman, and started to breathe on her own with her mother's touch and holding her, that and some significant prayer which might not be the typical prayer, this was about gathering and sending all the love in the mother's heart straight into the baby.

She was that NICU's miracle baby, all the doctors and nurses started crying when she took her first solo breath.

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On 6/7/2018 at 4:24 PM, LittleRed84 said:

Although I agree from his point this is best.... he might be driving her right into

  Hide contents

the open arms of a manipulative and creepy Commander. She is desperate for affection and approval. If she doesn’t get it from nick, I think she will grab onto it from anyone who gives it to her. Then, commence pillow talk. And out come her little secrets about secret letters and her husband not wanting to have sex with her etc...

Nick might be smarter to keep her happy, even if he has to fake it. If she’s a happy homemaker singing and decorating like Snow White cleaning the house, then her mind won’t be making trouble. He’s giving her too much room for doubt. 

Cmon Nick. June had to let the commander have sex with her and flirt with him. And say she liked it. Man up and fake a relationship with Eden for your survival. 

Would it kill Nick to just be nice to her, even if it’s not in a romantic way? He could just be friendly, and I’m sure they don’t frown on husbands acting paternal towards their young wives, so he could act like that too. It sucks that he can’t get out of the sex, but he could be nicer to her the rest of the time. It’s not her fault he’s in this awful position, and she really doesn’t know any better. And the best way to prevent her turning him in is if she likes him. If she gets to like June (which she seems to already), that can also only help. 

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On 6/9/2018 at 4:53 AM, Earlwoode said:

 It’s not credible her character was working towards making women submissive and very pious when she herself does not come across as anything like.

I always thought she was based on Phyllis Schafly. 

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On 6/26/2018 at 9:32 AM, LeGrandElephant said:

I always thought she was based on Phyllis Schafly. 

 

 Due to the religious bent,  Serena’s overall characterization has always reminded me, at least in the book she did, of Tammy Faye Bakker Messner, Jim Bakker’s old wife.

I always felt that Serena possessed a lot of those Televangelical qualities, the extreme quest for religious celebrity status, the utter bullshit that came out of her about women’s rights and being a godly, good wife and good woman under the Lord, blah blah blah, that stuff was right up Tammy’s alley.

In the show I see similarities still, but I also think that this form of Serena is a bit more updated, a more modern take as expected, but still just as deadly and deceiving. 

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5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Google is your friend.  She was huge before and during the time Atwood wrote this book.  I think Serena Joy is a composite of her and other super religious/conservative/misogynistic bigoted media women of the time.

Never heard of her but then, I’m not American so have no recollection of anyone famous at that time in the US.  What struck me of the Gilead setup is it’s exact representation of the oppression of women in hard line Muslim countries.

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1 hour ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

 Due to the religious bent,  Serena’s overall characterization has always reminded me, at least in the book she did, of Tammy Faye Bakker Messner, Jim Bakker’s old wife.

I always felt that Serena possessed a lot of those Televangelical qualities, the extreme quest for religious celebrity status, the utter bullshit that came out of her about women’s rights and being a godly, good wife and good woman under the Lord, blah blah blah, that stuff was right up Tammy’s alley.

In the show I see similarities still, but I also think that this form of Serena is a bit more updated, a more modern take as expected, but still just as deadly and deceiving. 

Tammy was mostly religious and definitely second to her husband.

Serena Joy, from what we've seen on the show, and read in the book was the "star" of her family, not Fred.  She wrote the books, she gave the speeches, she was on TV, not hubby.

1 hour ago, Earlwoode said:

Never heard of her but then, I’m not American so have no recollection of anyone famous at that time in the US.  What struck me of the Gilead setup is it’s exact representation of the oppression of women in hard line Muslim countries.

American Feminists made their greatest bid for national attention at the 1977 National Women's Conference in Houston; however, historian Marjorie J. Spruill argues that the anti-feminists led by Schlafly organized a highly successful counter-conference, the Pro-Life, Pro-Family Rally, to protest the National Women's Conference and make it clear feminists did not speak for them. At their rally they announced the beginning of a pro-family movement, to fight against politicians who had been supporting feminism and liberalism, and to promote "family values" in American politics, and so moved the Republican Party to the right and defeated the ratification of the ERA.[20]

Schlafly became an outspoken opponent of the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) during the 1970s as the organizer of the "STOP ERA" campaign. STOP was an acronym for "Stop Taking Our Privileges". She argued that the ERA would take away gender-specific privileges currently enjoyed by women, including "dependent wife" benefits under Social Security, separate restrooms for males and females, and exemption from the Selective Service (the Army draft).[21][22] She was opposed by groups such as the National Organization for Women (NOW) and the ERAmerica coalition. The Homemakers' Equal Rights Association was formed to counter Schlafly's campaign.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly

Much much more at link.  She used to be quite famous, and she was huge in politics, and against women's rights.  Sounds a lot like Serena Joy to me.

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11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Tammy was mostly religious and definitely second to her husband.

Serena Joy, from what we've seen on the show, and read in the book was the "star" of her family, not Fred.  She wrote the books, she gave the speeches, she was on TV, not hubby.

 

In interviews about the book Atwood has alluded to the fact that she did use Tammy Faye as part of her inspiration for Serena Joy.

Like I said it was mainly due to how she was able to become such a celebrity using religion, as a female that was something that the world had not yet really seen before.

She took the stage, or should I say pulpit, by storm.

Yes she was submissive to Bakker, at least in public, but she was a superstar in her own right for the women's movement that they were pushing.

She led just as strongly and loudly, and imo hypocritically, as Serena has, both on the show and in the book. 

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On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 6:43 PM, Umbelina said:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly

Much much more at link.  She used to be quite famous, and she was huge in politics, and against women's rights.  Sounds a lot like Serena Joy to me.

And the irony, of course, is that Phyllis never would have been able to run for Congress or apply for law school without feminism.

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22 hours ago, NoSpam said:

And the irony, of course, is that Phyllis never would have been able to run for Congress or apply for law school without feminism.

That’s what always confuses me about these types....

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Yes, and she fought against, and is credited with delaying the ERA as well.  She is a perfect "Serena."  She was extremely political, not just religious.

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This episode felt like a study in how Gilead perverts human relationships. You have the baby dying from lack of mother love, a husband turning abusive because it's allowed now and because he has absolute power for the time being and a poisoned friendship. I was willing June to leave Serena alone since everything we've seen about Serena indicates she'll lash out in turn at the people she can get away with abusing.

It's all over the episode as we have Nick and Eden struggling to connect because they had no choice in their marriage and the angry Emily who isn't allowed to love anyone she would choose but instead is being raped by the ruling class she despises.

Edited by Beatriceblake
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Every time June and Nick hang out together it throws me out of the story a little bit. Would they be that careless, so frequently?

I've known two mothers whose babies were failure to thrive. One was the bat-shit wife of a military officer; the military psychiatric community would not intervene, and the father was gone all of the time and uninvolved. The other was my best friend, who suffered from low-grade depression and who appeared to be at attentive mother, but I'm not sure about the times some of us weren't around. I've always wondered about the diagnosis. I guess all those children left to languish in institutions and orphanages suffer from this kind of neglect. It's heartbreaking.

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Administrative punishment... 10 lashes...

Starship Troppers - A Civilized Whipping!!!

If this is accepted, then nothing is wrong with what happened to Serena...

She could have

  • lost a finger
Spoiler
Spoiler
  • then a hand instead of only the finger for reading the bible @ the committee hearing in the finalé...

 

The baby Gilidean needs to learn the ropes; its never too early to introduce knowledge...

If the baby,

Spoiler

she or her child,

has to be disciplined, 

Spoiler

she or

Serena, would be the Zim of the situation...

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