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GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself

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26 minutes ago, TeeVee329 said:

No Vanessa Marcil?  If they ever lured her back for good, all this "Sonny and Carly BELONG TOGETHER because THEY GET EACH OTHER and ARE DESTINED FOR NOW AND ALWAYS" stuff would be extremely over.

I'm so glad the sleeve-tugger is gone. I'd only want her back as Brenda if she and Sonny were going to die horribly and permanently. And fwiw, I don't ship Sonny and Carly. I still don't get how Sonny was any female character's twooooo luv, when Jax was in the picture. I just think Brenda became a big ball of tics, and the Brenda/Carly feud got old fast. 

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I don't think Carly/Jax set the world on fire, but they were a comfortable and reasonably well-liked pairing for a number of years. The show clearly saw Ingo and Laura click and went with it very, very quickly and unexpectedly. It was a safe harbor for the Carly character and shifted her into a somewhat different role in those years, the same way Guza began shifting Sonny into more of a patriarch role as it was clear in the writing he'd begun falling out of favor a bit while Jason remained sacrosanct. Sonny still got major story and moments, but the character became a bit more overtly fallible (until he wasn't again, now).

The thing is that Jax was never a key priority for Guza after he returned to the show, so a re-re-recast Carly became downshifted in a way as well. But she was still a force in town, a troublemaker, etc. Her core nature, however nasty, was not horribly compromised with Jax IMO the way I'd thought it would be, and a big part of that was LW and Guza writing her very hard at times. Later, when Ron Carlivati came in, he wrecked the character with Franco and Sonny.

Anyway, certain characters took precedent under later Guza, and Jason and Brenda will always be among them. Kate and brief periods of Brenda's return were the last times Sonny really worked for me.

Edited by jsbt
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But I thought JJ was a mob guy? Now he’s a flannel loving barkeep? Guess I need to look up what they’ve done with him since bringing him back. Has he reached Lorenzo level yet? Meaning being totally owned by Sonny? 

He was a mob guy, they brought him back as a mob guy. But he dropped it for Alexis. And then about three months after they got married, Julian almost killed Alexis by holding a knife to her throat because he thought she was going to turn him in for some murder he committed. The fan response was very negative so a couple months later they said his sister Olivia forced him to do it by threatening to hurt his family (she wanted revenge on him for something or other). And then the show gave him the bar and the flannel in January.

Regarding where to stop if you start to re-watch 2006, I would say either after Laura slips back into her comatose state or when Robin's boyfriend Patrick tells her he loves her for the first time (who she married. They're both off-screen now and have two kids, Emma and Noah. Named after the guy who dated Bobbie, Patrick was his retcon son.) Another good stopping point is probably the Metro Court crises, which people say was good, but they killed off Alan during it. I didn't really watch myself, because by that time I wasn't watching because of a super annoying character, Spinelli.

ETA: Oh, I thought you had asked when would be a good stopping point not when things took a turn. Yeah, I would say it pretty much got really bad again after Genie's visit that November. I myself didn't really start watching regularly again until Jonathan Jackson came back.

Edited by ulkis

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On 9/16/2018 at 12:03 AM, katie9918 said:

Greg Vaughan as Lucky could have been a leading man and a hero on any halfway decent show that wasn’t intent on glorifying MB and especially SB as the gangster killers they really were. 

 

It’s not Greg Vaughan’s fault the deck was stacked against him before he even arrived and Guza and Geary hated him solely because he wasn’t JJ. Personally, I’m one of the few who doesn’t worship at the altar of Jonathan Jackson and thought that Greg Vaughan was a much better screen partner for Rebecca Herbst (another unpopular opinion, but I’ve never seen anything particularly special about her, just another daytime actress) than JJ ever was.

I thought Greg Vaughan Lucky had real potential, once I got used to Lucky not being Jonathan Jackson (I skipped the other Lucky actor and mostly have no idea what happened in the early 2000s, since I didn't watch then).    Too bad the show squandered it. 

I really though in 2006 or so that, with Robin returning and getting a new love interest in Patrick, and a pretty promising set of younger characters - including NewLucky - the show might get more light and fun and balanced again.  Like, I thought Lucky might become kind of what Frisco was like in the 80s.   But .... nope.  My hopes for that died out pretty quickly.  

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I appreciate the run down. So he survived the total hack job like they gave Lorenzo way back when or any of the other mobsters on the show. They never were allowed to exist or thrive or succeed if they weren’t buddy buddy with Sonny. Faith really got ruined and she was pretty damn good. 

Whoa, a ton really has happened, I will have to set aside some binge watching time soon. 

So they didn’t recast Lucky again after JJ left the last time? Is there any chance of his return? I always enjoyed him. 

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41 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

So they didn’t recast Lucky again after JJ left the last time? Is there any chance of his return? I always enjoyed him. 

No, they didn't, and no, I doubt it. He did return for a couple of episodes when TG retired (in 2015), but that was about it.

Luke has a retcon son now. Probably one of the worst GH retcons ever. They said he had a one night stand with Holly and when he went home he knew Laura knew but Laura understood it didn't mean anything or whatever. Not only was a shitty retcon it was pretty pointless. They had no story for him and just brought him on because the actor was auditioning for something else and he reminded them of Tony Geary, so they created a role for him. He's off-screen though and I doubt they will bring him back.

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Nathan Parsons is heading up the new Roswell re-boot.  Even more doubtful Ethan would show up again because he would have to be recast. With Luka and Holly both gone and Kristina now interested in women, there's really  no point to bringing him back. #EthanShouldHaveBeenRobert'sSon

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On 10/16/2018 at 10:58 PM, ulkis said:

How come no one said anything about Olivia's 10th anniversary lol:

 

 

I have nothing aganist Olivia Falconeri or Lisa LoCicero, but it always pissed me off how Meghan Ward ended up being broomed to the side after Lisa joined the cast. Despite Kate Howard being unfortunely connected to Sonny, the bones of her and MW's fabolous hair were a breath of fresh air to the show.  They really should have taken some of her ideas (Kristina being a teen model, her working with Tracy) and used them. I normally don't love love triangles, but it would have been interesting if Ned tried to date Olivia, but Tracy started pushing Kate on him, considering her a much better "Q" wife.

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27 minutes ago, ulkis said:

ABC put up a best of Sonny and Carly collection, 20 episodes, and 11 of them are from the LW years. WTF.

13 years! #bestteamintown #themaster #grateful  #wesismyboyfriend.

Edited by Hater
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27 minutes ago, ulkis said:

ABC put up a best of Sonny and Carly collection, 20 episodes, and 11 of them are from the LW years. WTF.

I wonder if it's cheaper to pay LW, so she gets the majority of the eps. Frank is so notoriously a budget freak that I wouldn't be surprised if that were the reason.

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44 minutes ago, ulkis said:

ABC put up a best of Sonny and Carly collection, 20 episodes, and 11 of them are from the LW years. WTF.

And weren't Sonny and Carly not paired for a good chunk of the LW years?  So they would all have to be pretty recent, yes?

I agree, there has to be a monetary reason for that skew.

And poor forgotten Carly #3 lol.

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Just now, ulkis said:

I wonder if they put only a couple of Sarah Brown episodes partly because of her tweets.

Probably. 

I want some ‘90s collections. Give me the Best of the Qs, Sonny/Brenda, Robin/Jason, Lucky/Liz. I might start caring.

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3 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Probably. 

I want some ‘90s collections. Give me the Best of the Qs, Sonny/Brenda, Robin/Jason, Lucky/Liz. I might start caring.

We'd get 3 JJ episodes, 5 GV episodes and 12 JY episodes.

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18 minutes ago, Gam2 said:

Huh?

Lol, that’s just internet speak for agreeing with @ulkis that they would have a majority of Jacob Young episodes in a Liz/Lucky compilation.

Edited by HeatLifer
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Gaaah. Watching the first episode and Carly is SO ANNOYING with AJ. it is pretty sweet when AJ says, "it didn't break Jason's heart to watch you marry me, it did when he gave Michael to me." At least that was proven true. Suck it Carly!

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I would like to know who thought that hiring the guy with frosted tips as Lucky would be a good idea.

I'm surprised Frank hasn't borrowed the Star Wars CGI machine to get Lila on screen and tell Franco how much she admires him.

Holy shit. Epsiode 3, minute 12. Bobbie is wearing a wig and she looks just like Sam (and doing just what Sam does lmao).

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9 hours ago, ulkis said:

We'd get 3 JJ episodes, 5 GV episodes and 12 JY episodes.

And most of the GV episodes would be from drug addict story. Meanwhile, Franco has me positively nostalgic for the days of FrostedTips!Lucky

That ep count is basically what they're doing with this "best of" Sonny/Carly. Sonny/Carly wouldn't have become a huge popular couple with LW, they don't have that kind of chemistry - never did.

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11 hours ago, ulkis said:

I would like to know who thought that hiring the guy with frosted tips as Lucky would be a good idea.

Some other actor I liked was on Bold and the Beautiful for a time in '97, so I tried to get into it. None too successfully, as the CBS soaps and Asp Burger have never been a match made in heaven. That happened to be when they SORASed little Rick Forrester to be played by Jacob Young, so I got to see the whole repertoire of his moves. Then I remember him getting hired as the new Lucky a couple years later, and GH viewers were oohing and aahing at his still pictures. I was one of those who knew the horrors that awaited.  It's weird to think that there was no YouTube in those days. If you hadn't seen someone on another show, you had nothing to go on. 

Actually, he wasn't horrid on either show. He was just average, and limited, and we were used to so much more in the role of Lucky. But he did come in with a lot of audience goodwill, and I remember a lot of people wanting to believe he would improve. There was a certain amount of Rebecca Herbst-bashing, as if she were responsible for the flatness of his performance, and a pairing with, say, Gia was going to uncap a dormant volcano.  

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Holy shit. Epsiode 3, minute 12. Bobbie is wearing a wig and she looks just like Sam (and doing just what Sam does lmao).

Was that when she was investigating the Melissa Bedford mystery? (Edit: I looked. It's a little earlier than that.) 

Edited by Asp Burger
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https://abc.go.com/shows/general-hospital-collection/episode-guide/season-01/7-sonny-and-carly-july-1-2002

Ugh, this episode has so many features of the Pruza era that I hated.

Carly calling the cops "you pigs!" for daring to interrupt the sacredness of Carly and Sonny's, what, second, third wedding? Sonny asking how could they interrupt with his priest there, the priest telling them he wasn't going to abandon a parishioner in need, like what? Featuring a weak ass subplot with Monica, Rick, and Alan, and the hilariousness of dim bulb Maxie baby-sitting Lulu and leaving her for ten minutes. The only highlight was Luke saying to Bobbie "I like my miracles with details" when talking about how Scott just happened to come by and save Lulu from the house that was on fire.

Edited by ulkis
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Was that when Danica Stewart played Maxie for about five minutes, or was that after Robyn Richards returned? 

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Oh, Danica. That was one of the worst-received recasts of my time. Even the Jennifer Bransford Carly won some people over, but I don't remember ever reading a kind word about DS's Maxie. The Kirsten Storms version could be ditzy in a comic way, but interim Maxie seemed flat-out dumb.    

The main thing that sticks out in my mind is how she said "ex-specially." Her delivery in general was grating, but that word in particular.

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What I also hate about Guza's destructive tendencies was how forced it was. One day, Tony's a pillar of the community, the next, he's a deranged kidnapper endangering the life of someone he's known since she was a child. 

@Camille I don't think it was that sudden. I think they showed how Tony snapped. But it was a bad choice, because of course Guza half-assed the aftermath.

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14 hours ago, ulkis said:

@Camille I don't think it was that sudden. I think they showed how Tony snapped. But it was a bad choice, because of course Guza half-assed the aftermath.

Didn't Brad Maule say that Guza promised to break Tony down to build him back up? Guza was effective at the breaking down. Building back up, not so much.

I swear at the time they were positioning Tony to be Liz's rapist. He was in the park that night, he'd had a violent altercation with Luke over Carly, he'd recently given himself the Buzzcut-of-Impending-Pyschosis, he was wearing similar gloves as the rapist...I'm very glad they didn't go that way, but making Tony the smirking town pariah didn't help him, sneering at Bobbie over her relationship with Jerry and constantly warring over custody of Lucas just made him an one-note asshole. (It didn't do Bobbie any favors, either.)

Edited by Melgaypet
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Tony may have slowly crumbled over the years starting with BJ's death, but raping Liz would have been a step too far. Granted, rape victims are generally raped by people they actually know/are somewhat acquainted with (and I understand that having it revealed/changed to having Tom the photographer do it seemed hackneyed to people at the time, too), but this is one instance where having it originally be a random stranger in the park was probably the better call. Tony had already been destroyed enough; I didn't need to see him become a rapist, too. 

Edited by UYI
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That sounds about right. I still firmly believe that the original Pruza plan was to reveal that Rick Webber had molested Laura, and that was her traumatic suppressed memory from the attic. I think the back story involving Theresa, Rick's mistress, which seemed hastily conceived and made little sense (wouldn't two adults having an affair go to a hotel room or something?), was a swerve. The way the story was initially being set up -- the impetus for the visit being a wedding at which Rick would give Laura away, the visual style given to Laura's intrusive memory fragments, Rick's anxiety when he realized she was having them -- was so reminiscent of exactly the story that Charles Pratt had done on Melrose Place with Alison and her father. The similarities did not escape the notice of anyone who had seen it on MP eight years earlier, and GH was getting a combination of mockery and anger over it. So I think it got taken in a different direction. Or maybe Robinson balked at playing the original idea, since mockery and anger rarely dented the self-approval of Pruza. 

All spec, but I'll never be convinced otherwise.  

Edited by Asp Burger
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On 11/30/2018 at 12:42 PM, Melgaypet said:

I swear at the time they were positioning Tony to be Liz's rapist.

Soap Opera Weekly was speculating the same thing.

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On 11/30/2018 at 12:42 PM, Melgaypet said:

Didn't Brad Maule say that Guza promised to break Tony down to build him back up? Guza was effective at the breaking down. Building back up, not so much.

I swear at the time they were positioning Tony to be Liz's rapist. He was in the park that night, he'd had a violent altercation with Luke over Carly, he'd recently given himself the Buzzcut-of-Impending-Pyschosis, he was wearing similar gloves as the rapist...I'm very glad they didn't go that way, but making Tony the smirking town pariah didn't help him, sneering at Bobbie over her relationship with Jerry and constantly warring over custody of Lucas just made him an one-note asshole. (It didn't do Bobbie any favors, either.)

 

 

23 hours ago, UYI said:

Tony may have slowly crumbled over the years starting with BJ's death, but raping Liz would have been a step too far. Granted, rape victims are generally raped by people they actually know/are somewhat acquainted with (and I understand that having it revealed/changed to having Tom the photographer do it seemed hackneyed to people at the time, too), but this is one instance where having it originally be a random stranger in the park was probably the better call. Tony had already been destroyed enough; I didn't need to see him become a rapist, too. 

 

Everything I know comes from foresnic files, but when a person who is Tony's age commits a crime like rape, usually a past pattern emerges, whether recorded or hidden. Tony was always presented as someone caring and compassionate with no ulterior motive. Even his affair with Carly, it wasn't just because she this young thing, he felt a connection to her (and Carly worked to incorporate herself into his and Bobbie's life) and she was older than 18 and consenting. The father that tearfully gave his beloved daughter's heart to save the life of his niece isn't going to up and rape a teenage girl, especially the granddaughter of his old boss, Dr. Steve Hardy. So someone who molests/rapes close relations would have done it with others in the past or had some lewd/questionable behavior to young women. 

That's the thing, I totally think Guza would go there, with his need to create black hats from white hats overriding anything being grounded in reality. I think Wendy Riche was still there and might have decided againist it (or Brad Maule requested not to turn Tony into a stranger raper). 

21 hours ago, Asp Burger said:

That sounds about right. I still firmly believe that the original Pruza plan was to reveal that Rick Webber had molested Laura, and that was her traumatic suppressed memory from the attic. I think the back story involving Theresa, Rick's mistress, which seemed hastily conceived and made little sense (wouldn't two adults having an affair go to a hotel room or something?), was a swerve. The way the story was initially being set up -- the impetus for the visit being a wedding at which Rick would give Laura away, the visual style given to Laura's intrusive memory fragments, Rick's anxiety when he realized she was having them -- was so reminiscent of exactly the story that Charles Pratt had done on Melrose Place with Alison and her father. The similarities did not escape the notice of anyone who had seen it on MP eight years earlier, and GH was getting a combination of mockery and anger over it. So I think it got taken in a different direction. Or maybe Robinson balked at playing the original idea, since mockery and anger rarely dented the self-approval of Pruza. 

All spec, but I'll never be convinced otherwise.  

 

I remember General Schospital calling out the utter bullshit that was that was Laura breakdown story. 

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8 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

 

I totally think Guza would go there, with his need to create black hats from white hats overriding anything being grounded in reality. I think Wendy Riche was still there and might have decided againist it (or Brad Maule requested not to turn Tony into a stranger raper). 

 

Wendy Riche was absolutely still there and I could totally see her (and maybe even Michele Val Jean, a rape survivor herself and the major force behind writing this story outside of Guza) absolutely shutting that shit down at record speed. 

Edited by UYI
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Carly's talk today about Sonny historically cheating on her.  Help me out, historians, because I can only recall it happening with Sam.  Because they were apart when he slept with Alexis, right, because she wore a wire?  Or did he also sleep with Angel, were he and Carly together then?

And then Carly cheated on him with Alcazar, right, but was that it?

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1 hour ago, TeeVee329 said:

Carly's talk today about Sonny historically cheating on her.  Help me out, historians, because I can only recall it happening with Sam.  Because they were apart when he slept with Alexis, right, because she wore a wire?  Or did he also sleep with Angel, were he and Carly together then?

And then Carly cheated on him with Alcazar, right, but was that it?

Sonny did not sleep with Angel.

Sonny and Carly signed the divorce papers by the he slept with Alexis. They were remarried or the divorce was revoked months later.

Sonny kissed Brenda when he was married to Carly. She told Jax who dumped Brenda at the altar a few days later.

While he was married to Carly, he slept with Sam after catching a brain damaged Carly kissing Alcazar. She then went to have sex with Alcazar when she found out about Sam. The show had dual sex montage as Sonny and Carly slept with other people.

After Morgan was killed, Carly left Sonny and slept with Jax.

Every other woman that Sonny slept with after Carly was when they were divorced.

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There was also Martina, Carly's divorce attorney, whom Sonny slept with before he knew Martina was such. S&C weren't divorced then, obviously, because her purpose was to facilitate that. But that was in the same period when Carly slept with Jax. I'd understand someone forgetting Martina, because she seemed to be on the show for about 15 minutes.   

Long-time viewers may have a perception that Sonny has "cheated on" Carly more often than he has, because whether they're together or not, and sometimes even when she's got another guy, she acts as though he belongs to her.  She used to be that way about Jason too, and they were allegedly no more than besties.  

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Oh I sadly remembered the latest Brenda!Bot, but didn't really think about her in this context because Sonny sleeping with her didn't initiate Sonny and Carly splitting up.  Does that make sense?

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Regarding Courtney's popularity between Frons and Guza:

If the rumors are to be believed, Guza hated Courtney (and ALW herself, along with her manager mother) more than even the audience did, which is the only reason she got a "real" death rather than a fake one. Frons more or less forced Journey on Guza, and I guess he (Frons) was one person Guza couldn't fight back against.

Personally, the rumor involving ALW that I'm most interested in is the one that said she and Tamara Braun were girlfriends (as in the romantic sense) at one point. I can certainly believe it. 

Edited by UYI

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