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Star Trek: Voyager

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1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

That's the part that makes zero sense, AndySmith.  It's not that common of a skill, you know?  You can't view a vital part of your society as being just "eh, whatever, someone must grow the food we eat, but we look down upon those that scratch in the dirt as the servants of the warriors, who are everything!"  you only get to treat segments of the population who basically make the whole thing possible with such disdain if you (believe) you have a limitless supply of them.  

If the best minds aren't encouraged to go into science and aerospace, then the Klingons get to stay the fuck home and kill each other.  

According to the established continuity the complete dominance of the warrior over all others was a fairly recent phenomenon and before that Klingon society was more balanced. So it's not completely unbelievable that for a few centuries biology, medicine, theoretical physics, etc. withered as society was directed towards expansion and conflict. They do seem to recognize engineers as a necessary part of war so maybe some of the best minds were "wasted" as warriors while most of the rest did go into aerospace during this era. If they ever decide to go forward again instead of doing more prequels Klingon society confronting this issue would be an interesting topic to explore.

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They do seem to recognize engineers as a necessary part of war so maybe some of the best minds were "wasted" as warriors while most of the rest did go into aerospace during this era. If they ever decide to go forward again instead of doing more prequels Klingon society confronting this issue would be an interesting topic to explore.

Fully agreed that it is an interesting topic to explore and expand upon if they ever go forward.  

I know this is blasphemy but I actually preferred the TOS Klingons (I know, I know), although that comes with the disclaimer: I actually haven't seen TOS since I was a child, except for the occasional passing it on the dial sort of viewing, so it's possible that I'm misremembering the original recipe Klingons.  

Also, in fairness, this is just one of my personal "I never dig those stories" things because similarly, the warrior species on Stargate -- the J'affa just wore me the hell out too.  

Actually, when compared to the J'affa the Klingons are kings of maturity, masters of decorum and gifted in the sciences.  The only thing that SG1 did that I like was that, due to the fact that Stargate was just sort of ripping off Trek in a couple of ways (paying homage, paying homage, seriously, not trying to insult the 'gates as I'm fond of them, but they did....borrow...broadly...from the Treks) they had their own warrior class.  Admittedly, they were all working with the stolen technology of the Ancients (such a long, long story, just go with it) which was a touch I always liked. "Wait, what those goobers could never....oh....you say they stole all of that technology?  Yup.   That tracks." 

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I just wish there was a way for Klingons to revere physical prowess, the art of war, and a fighting spirit without all the damned shouting and anger.

Edited by lordonia
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*throws all the likes at lordonia's post

Yeah, that's honestly the reason I found them so irritating.  Here's the thing, I watched almost all of the Treks the first time through, about five years ago and I watched the vast majority of them while on an elliptical machine in my home.  The Klingons are quite possibly the worst thing, in the actual world, to happen to home viewing volume modulation, ever.  

If the Klingons had been icy rather than reactionary, I think they would have squared the living shit out of me, to be completely honest about it.  Instead, they were fiery and there's me, trying not to break my face or anything, trying to adjust volume on the fly, and to sum up? It did not go well, folks.   I guess they had a lot to overcome with me.  I've never found yelling, screaming, shouting to be intimidating or frightening.  Honestly, I find it kind of amusing because it puts me in mind of toddlers who just can't even deal with the stress of shoelaces without melting down.  So the bellowing just annoyed me as a general rule, it played merry hell with my ability to know what the fuck was going on, as I scrambled for volume control (while being captain safety, to keep my face) and then it is never something I find impressive, intimidating, or anything other than irritating in people.  

Someone in complete control of themselves, no matter the circumstances?  Oh yeah, that person scares me half to death.  The Peacekeepers on FarScape scared me and they were a warrior species too...and come to think of it....I freaking loved the Peacekeepers, in that "yikes!" way.  

Huh, that's making me wonder if different line-reads on every piece of Klingon dialogue ever would elevate them in my eyes.   Unfortunately,  all that house business in the Klingon world building is the thing that reminds me of the Scots, vs. their mortal enemies, the Scots and  I wonder if maybe I dislike the Klingons because they make me remember having to eat blood pudding as a child.   Dunno. 

Edited by stillshimpy

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15 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Actually, when compared to the J'affa the Klingons are kings of maturity, masters of decorum and gifted in the sciences.  The only thing that SG1 did that I like was that, due to the fact that Stargate was just sort of ripping off Trek in a couple of ways (paying homage, paying homage, seriously, not trying to insult the 'gates as I'm fond of them, but they did....borrow...broadly...from the Treks) they had their own warrior class.  Admittedly, they were all working with the stolen technology of the Ancients (such a long, long story, just go with it) which was a touch I always liked. "Wait, what those goobers could never....oh....you say they stole all of that technology?  Yup.   That tracks." 

Actually that brings up another story possibility. I didn't watch all of Enterprise or remember all of the Trek I have watched. Did they ever explore the founding of the interstellar Klingon Empire and how they acquired warp technology? It could be an interesting story if they got it from some spacefaring race without the Prime Directive and that was how they moved from something like a realistically sustainable society with an extremely influential warrior class, but activity in science, arts, etc. as well as the culture was destabilized by the sudden advance and the expansionists dominated and were able to believe they could just take whatever they needed after they conquered everyone. And that along with the disastrous first contact with the Klingons was one of the major influences on Federation philosophy. Certainly would have been a more interesting story than all the time they spent trying to explain the makeup differences with all the boring Augment Virus stuff or a lot of of the Klingon stories they did on Voyager and the TNG era shows.

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Klingon history. Short version, they were invaded. Possibly they captured and reverse-engineered Her'q technology. But there's a long gap between the invasions and them venturing into space.

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After having complained mightily about the Klingons, I will now proceed to read their history because I'm genuinely interested, thank you, Joe.  

Here's what happened and why it was on my mind.  I'm in the sixth season of a rewatch but when we started this, I randomly started with season two.  Something happened in the show that made me think about the Caretaker so I went back and watched the pilot which is a good pilot.  However, B'elanna's Klingon side is turned up to Way Irksome in the pilot and it was really jarring because they turned that way down in the coming seasons.  

Anyway, I ended rewatching the first season, so for awhile I was watching the first season and the sixth season.  B'elanna was one of my favorite characters on Voyager but that didn't take root for a long time.   So that's why it has been on my mind. 

Oh and then there was Alexander but that's an entirely different show.  

ETA:  "shot by a farmer named Moore" made me laugh for a full minute.    Yeah, okay, it truly just is the yelling that I can't stand.  I loved the Romulans, by the way, in that same "yikes!" way I did the Peace Keepers.  I really enjoyed the Cardassians too (again, in that love-but-eek way) and I enjoyed how much history and world-building they put into the backstory.  I also remember enjoying Kahlass when he showed up in all his cloned glory.  

I did see where there is some non-canonical stuff that suggests they could have reverse-engineered warp drive from the Hurq's technology and I absolutely enjoyed the fantasy craft that went into that world-building.   I guess I really just cannot stand shouting.  Not in that "because it frightens me!" way it just....yeah, already covered.  I just can't take yellers seriously.  

I kind of love Worf though.  Truly, I have a far more complicated reaction to the Klingons than perhaps the material warrants. 

Edited by stillshimpy
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I know this is blasphemy but I actually preferred the TOS Klingons (I know, I know), although that comes with the disclaimer: I actually haven't seen TOS since I was a child, except for the occasional passing it on the dial sort of viewing, so it's possible that I'm misremembering the original recipe Klingons.  

If it's blasphemy I'm going to hell too. As far as I know, the franchise has never really explained why Klingons developed forehead ridges somewhere between the original series and TNG. I know they have alluded to it from time to time, acknowledged it, and maybe even half-explained it. Or maybe the explanation is found in non-canon form, like one of the comic books or novels. But when TNG first premiered, my reaction to Worf, and the Klingons in general, was that the show simply wanted to flaunt their superior make-up affects and had little interest in explaining the continuity issue. Nothing has ever swayed my opinion since that time.

Also, the original recipe Klingons do not, so far as TOS portrayed them, have the issue stillshimpy has complained about - there was no indication they were this almost primitive, warrior race that devalued science or scientific achievement. That came about with the mythos that was built around them beginning with TNG. In many ways, they sort of devolved.

Back on topic, if we're not yet too tired of bashing Neelix . . . one of the more irritating aspects of his personality was his insistence on calling Tuvok "Mr. Vulcan." As though he were too addle-brained to remember his real name (he doesn't seem to have an issue with anyone else's name). Or why Tuvok put up with it. Why didn't Tuvok start calling him "Mr. Talaxian?"

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21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

If it's blasphemy I'm going to hell too. As far as I know, the franchise has never really explained why Klingons developed forehead ridges somewhere between the original series and TNG. I know they have alluded to it from time to time, acknowledged it, and maybe even half-explained it. Or maybe the explanation is found in non-canon form, like one of the comic books or novels. But when TNG first premiered, my reaction to Worf, and the Klingons in general, was that the show simply wanted to flaunt their superior make-up affects and had little interest in explaining the continuity issue. Nothing has ever swayed my opinion since that time.

Also, the original recipe Klingons do not, so far as TOS portrayed them, have the issue stillshimpy has complained about - there was no indication they were this almost primitive, warrior race that devalued science or scientific achievement. That came about with the mythos that was built around them beginning with TNG. In many ways, they sort of devolved.

They did explain it. On Enterprise. It was not very interesting and they would have been much better off just sticking with Worf's "we do not discuss it with outsiders!" and exploring the issues we've discussed in this thread. Or go along with the Klingons as Soviets/Russians metaphor and have the original first contact being a disaster that lead to lasting mistrust but have them being reluctant allies against a larger threat.

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Back on topic, if we're not yet too tired of bashing Neelix . . . one of the more irritating aspects of his personality was his insistence on calling Tuvok "Mr. Vulcan." As though he were too addle-brained to remember his real name (he doesn't seem to have an issue with anyone else's name). Or why Tuvok put up with it. Why didn't Tuvok start calling him "Mr. Talaxian?"

Tuvok didn't do that because it would be illogical.

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Back on topic, if we're not yet too tired of bashing Neelix . . 

Not possible ... He was perhaps the irritating main cast character in Trek history ... Bash away

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Back on topic, if we're not yet too tired of bashing Neelix . . . one of the more irritating aspects of his personality was his insistence on calling Tuvok "Mr. Vulcan." As though he were too addle-brained to remember his real name (he doesn't seem to have an issue with anyone else's name). Or why Tuvok put up with it. Why didn't Tuvok start calling him "Mr. Talaxian?"

This is a reference to the pilot. When Neelix first boards Voyager. Tuvok says something about him being vulcan (because of Neelix's reaction). Neelix being who he is called him that as a nickname. He did know his real name, and does call him it throughout the series. I've always thought it was a nice tie to the pilot. As for Tuvok not being annoyed it wasn't logical.

Edited by blueray
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Back on topic, if we're not yet too tired of bashing Neelix

I know the writing seldom did him any favors, and as near as I can tell, the directors appeared to actively hate him because he had the emotional equilibrium of a seesaw, but I hope it's never too much Neelix bashing.  I don't deeply despise the character or anything but sometimes my responses to him are so ungenerous, it kind of flips me out.  I mean, out-of-character, "I remain emotionally inaccessible to this character....or he, to me...." like the other night I watched a hugely, hugely problematic episode on many levels.  

It's essentially the mind-rape "remember our genocide....as the villains who perpetrated it! And to really be lacking nuance here, our big ol' transmitter looks insanely phallic with much attention called to it's throbbing end (god GAWD show, the hell?) " episode , the title of which is escaping me.  

Anyway, something incredibly horrible happens to Tom, Chakotay, Harry and Neelix in that they remember themselves as having participated in a genocide that actually took place hundreds of years earlier but that someone in their infinite wisdom decided "we will just broadcast this into your ships, creating PTSD survivors, in space, who will be in essence killed as the people they were before...so no irony there!..." would be an appropriate memorial.  Because someone somewhere thought that mind violation would be a way to ...uh...honor?....a murdered people?  Man, if that was my dead butt in the mists of time, I'd be one outraged spook at the violation, violence, and wrong that kept on giving.  

The way Voyager set it up there was at least a warning beacon but here's hoping it was lengthy, detailed and not prone to English understatement because I don't think offering to psychologically maim yourself is a good answer for honoring the fallen.  

So a meaty episode in concept, problematic -- even for the time period in which it was made -- on issues of consent and a chance for the entire crew to just swing from the heels with their trauma-acting-chops on display.  

I spent so much of it thinking, "Please stop that shrieking" at Neelix.  Neelix who was a pure freaking victim of wrongdoing and was suffering horribly.  Yeah, I felt like a gem of a human being there, but clearly, I hate yelly acting choices.  He was 100% worthy of compassion there but the scenery-chewing choices of both the script, the director, the staging upstaged everything, every time they cut to it. 

It really isn't the actor, I've seen him in other things and he's honestly a good actor, in my estimation.  But damn, pipe down, dude.  

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I don't know how many people are watching this current run on the Heroes and Icons channel (or, how many people even get that channel) - but they're nearing the end of the fourth season right now and just aired a really odd episode called "Demon," where Harry and Tom are replicated by some kind of sentient silver goo on a planet they land on to harvest more fuel. The clones inexplicably go from actually thinking they are the real Harry and Tom to somehow having awareness that they are part of this collective silver goo and can speak for their "kind." In the end, Janeway agrees to allow this goo to replicate her entire crew and we see the ship taking off while about a 100 random crew members in Starfleet uniform are seen standing around on the planet's surface. WTF? Why would any of the crew allow carbon copies of themselves to be created then left behind to do God knows what on some hostile, alien planet? 

Also, in its seven year run I don't remember another time when Voyager was ever running low on fuel. They were trying to find a source of "deterium" in this episode, which kind of cracked me up because on Lost in Space the Jupiter 2 ran on dutronium. Don't know if either of those things are even real. 

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On 11/3/2016 at 7:46 PM, stillshimpy said:

It's essentially the mind-rape "remember our genocide....as the villains who perpetrated it! And to really be lacking nuance here, our big ol' transmitter looks insanely phallic with much attention called to it's throbbing end (god GAWD show, the hell?) " episode , the title of which is escaping me.  

 "Memorial"   Oh Lord, one of the biggest pieces of melodrama Voyager put out.  All the hand wringing over whether to turn the thing off or to leave it on so the horrible tragedy is never forgotten.   And they choose to leave it on.  I mean...really?   Not only did these aliens think it's ok to mind rape any random people wandering by but you think it's cool to just let it continue happening?   These aliens aren't the only ones to experience a horror perpetrated by their own people and other races don't see fit to randomly inflict PTSD on strangers.    And there are other ways to communicate what happened.   Make a video, leave holodeck program, write a damn note....but don't commit your own crime.

 And this is just another in a long line of episodes where the crew has their minds violated.  Persistence of Vision, Bliss, The Killing Game, Workforce.   The Delta Quadrant is apparently full to the brim of species that can hijack minds and/or bodies of any random alien race and Voyager just happens to stumble over every one of them.   They should really all have some sort of brain tumor given all the times their heads have been tinkered with.

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Also, in its seven year run I don't remember another time when Voyager was ever running low on fuel. They were trying to find a source of "deterium"

Voyager had fuel issues from the first episode...which made no sense as starships are designed to function for months if not years without returning to a base.  Otherwise they wouldn't be able to do the deep space exploratory missions Starfleet was supposed to carry out.  The fuel issues are why they had replicator rations, and they had to have replications so they could....wait for it...need a cook (yes, it all comes back to Neelix).  If you think "Demon" was bad, wait till you see the sequel.  

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11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Also, in its seven year run I don't remember another time when Voyager was ever running low on fuel. They were trying to find a source of "deterium" in this episode, which kind of cracked me up because on Lost in Space the Jupiter 2 ran on dutronium. Don't know if either of those things are even real. 

It's deuterium, not deterium. It is real and can be used as fuel for nuclear fusion reactors. Nuclear fusion is still in the research phase and with today's technology it produces less energy than is needed to initiate and sustain the reaction.

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On 11/9/2016 at 7:32 PM, Maverick said:

If you think "Demon" was bad, wait till you see the sequel.  

Course: Oblivion redeemed the concept in Demon for me. Yes, it's a depressing episode, but it explored a lot of powerful topics.

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Finally saw it! It wasn't a bad episode and it at least tied up a loose end with all those duplicates they left behind. I guess I just don't understand why they forgot they were duplicates and started to believe they were the real people. I also don't understand how they got further away from their planet than the real Voyager did if they left later because they were on their way back home when the real Voyager discovered them. I also don't understand how they were able to duplicate Voyager itself, because we didn't see a duplicate ship when the real Voyager left them behind on the Demon Planet, and Janeway never said anything about allowing them to duplicate her ship.

Nothing, though, will explain why the entire crew was willing to have themselves duplicated like that in the first place. (And honestly - who would want to be a duplicate of Neelix? {shudder})

Edited by iMonrey
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I'm sort of new to the extended Star Trek universe. I watched the original a zillion times over during reruns in it's 50 year history, but I never got into all of the extended shows, probably because my husband liked them and if he wanted to watch them, I didn't. That could partially explain the divorce that occurred, but that's beside the point. I started watching Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Enterprise this fall on H&I. It seems like they all have an episode or two of the alternate universe thing. I read a couple of alternate universe book series, I kind of like them. But the Voyager episode that iMonrey is referring to was one of the saddest to me. It was nice, at least to me, to know that in some alternate world Tom and B'Elanna were married. I don't know if that should be in spoiler tags, but this show is over 20 years old. 

And related to the topic title, I notice that all the shows take place in Alpha or Delta Quadrants. Are there a Beta and Gamma Quadrant or are they Bravo and Charlie?

Edited because I often think Voyager as Veeger, like in the first Star Trek movie. I am probably the only person you will ever hear of that went to see it on opening night, had tickets for the 10 PM showing, didn't get in until Midnight, stood outside in freezing cold for those two hours, finally got in, got warm, the lights went down & I went out. Remember the very beginning and the end. And I've never even tried to watch it again. It wasn't that I was so bored as it was that I had been out very late the night before, ran errands all that day, stood outside in all that cold and I just went off to sleep.

Edited by friendperidot
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19 minutes ago, friendperidot said:

I'm sort of new to the extended Star Trek universe. I watched the original a zillion times over during reruns in it's 50 year history, but I never got into all of the extended shows, probably because my husband liked them and if he wanted to watch them, I didn't. That could partially explain the divorce that occurred, but that's beside the point. I started watching Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Enterprise this fall on H&I. It seems like they all have an episode or two of the alternate universe thing. I read a couple of alternate universe book series, I kind of like them. But the Voyager episode that iMonrey is referring to was one of the saddest to me. It was nice, at least to me, to know that in some alternate world Tom and B'Elanna were married. I don't know if that should be in spoiler tags, but this show is over 20 years old. 

Oh, they were married in the "real" world, too.  We just never saw that wedding because it was felt that the "wedding" that took place in the alternate world was enough.  All we got was a shot of them celebrating after the real wedding as they flew off in the Delta Flyer for a short honeymoon (which had a sign saying "Just Married" in the rear portal and even had tin cans tied to it).

I won't tell you what happens to them towards the end of the show in case you haven't gotten that far yet in your viewing.  I'll let you enjoy the story of their married life as it unfolds.

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1 hour ago, friendperidot said:

I started watching Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Enterprise this fall on H&I.[snip]

And related to the topic title, I notice that all the shows take place in Alpha or Delta Quadrants. Are there a Beta and Gamma Quadrant

You must have missed the series premiere of DS9.  Because the wormhole there connects the Alpha Quadrant (Federation space) with the Gamma Quadrant.

As for the Beta Quadrant, most fan-theories put the Romulan empire (and some Klingon territory) there.

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Thank you SVNBob, I didn't start watching when H&I started this run of all the Star Treks and sometimes I'm still hit or miss and that includes the nights I have the tv on the channel and I'm reading a book or playing a game or chatting in another board. Some days, just can't get into them.

And, legaleagle, I guess I haven't gotten that far, but it's nice to know. I don't care if I know spoilers are not and especially not for these shows, they're 20 years old. Or maybe I should put something about T and B sittin' in a tree and then move onto nonsense?

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8 hours ago, friendperidot said:

And, legaleagle, I guess I haven't gotten that far, but it's nice to know. I don't care if I know spoilers are not and especially not for these shows, they're 20 years old. Or maybe I should put something about T and B sittin' in a tree and then move onto nonsense?

Well, since you don't mind being spoiled, they have a baby daughter in the final episode.  In fact, the entire seventh season shows B'Elanna dealing with the pregnancy.

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just watched on H&I, episode started with a Mars mission in the 21st century, a large space anomaly swallowed up a space capsule, then hundreds of year later, Voyager encounters it, they send in their little shuttle with Chacotay, Tom and Seven, evenutally Seven has to go to the old capsule and listens to the final data, as the anomaly is collapsing she puts her little link thing on the body of the astronaut & has them both beamed back to the shuttle. When they are all back on board Voyager, they have a funeral service for the astronaut, John Kelley. When they sent his body back into space, I thought, "God Speed, John Glenn." Just me being sad and sentimental. But, God Speed, John Glenn. 

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I didn't start watching when H&I started this run of all the Star Treks and sometimes I'm still hit or miss and that includes the nights I have the tv on the channel and I'm reading a book or playing a game or chatting in another board.

TNG is the least serialized of the spin-offs. You can pretty much just jump in anywhere and start watching. That's less true of DS9 and Voyager. Those, you pretty much need to start from the very beginning - especially DS9. I've been unable to get back into DS9 for the most part because I wasn't aware of the H&I channel until it and Voyager were already in their second or third seasons. I caught a two parter this week for DS9 and had a hard time remembering what the storyline was. That show was deliberately serialized. I look forward to them starting over again on H&I  (assuming they do) so I can watch them from the beginning.

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Saw when I was browsing through the guide on my DVR that BBC America has added Voyager starting with a marathon beginning at 5am ET on New Year's Day. Haven't seen any sort of PR or commercials during the latest TOS eps I recorded so I thought some people here might be interested and not know about it. Now they just need to add DS9 for those of us who don't get H&I and are too cheap or lazy to watch via other media...

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I've seen the Season 2 episode "Threshold" referred to as the worst in the series and reviled by the fans, but last night I caught one I think far surpasses it in stupidity. "Tsunkatse." It seemed to be written specifically to accommodate a guest star appearance by Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson (billed here simply as "The Rock," as he was at the time still only a wrestling star). The story revolves around Seven of Nine being kidnapped and forced to fight in cage matches - one of them against, of course, The Rock. 

Dumbest. Episode. EVER.

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2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I've seen the Season 2 episode "Threshold" referred to as the worst in the series and reviled by the fans, but last night I caught one I think far surpasses it in stupidity. "Tsunkatse." It seemed to be written specifically to accommodate a guest star appearance by Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson (billed here simply as "The Rock," as he was at the time still only a wrestling star). The story revolves around Seven of Nine being kidnapped and forced to fight in cage matches - one of them against, of course, The Rock. 

Dumbest. Episode. EVER.

Now, now. That episode is ALSO an excuse to have Jeri Ryan cage fight in a unitard.

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On 12/28/2016 at 4:59 PM, huahaha said:

Now, now. That episode is ALSO an excuse to have Jeri Ryan cage fight in a unitard.

Right on both and it was also do to the Rock's popularity and UPN's Raw at the time. I remember years later the cast said it was a promo episode. Basically written around promotions for other shows. 

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I always found the holodeck to be an unnecessary diversion in all the spin-off shows. The Fairhaven episodes seemed like pointless filler, just as the ones on TNG and DS9 that centered around holographic characters did. Because basically that's a different kind of show, on it's own. You could do a whole series about holodeck adventures and you don't need a space ship or a space station to support that premise.

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6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I always found the holodeck to be an unnecessary diversion in all the spin-off shows. The Fairhaven episodes seemed like pointless filler, just as the ones on TNG and DS9 that centered around holographic characters did. Because basically that's a different kind of show, on it's own. You could do a whole series about holodeck adventures and you don't need a space ship or a space station to support that premise.

You do if that's where the holodeck happens to be located.

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15 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I always found the holodeck to be an unnecessary diversion in all the spin-off shows. The Fairhaven episodes seemed like pointless filler, just as the ones on TNG and DS9 that centered around holographic characters did. Because basically that's a different kind of show, on it's own. You could do a whole series about holodeck adventures and you don't need a space ship or a space station to support that premise.

 

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

You do if that's where the holodeck happens to be located.

And you have to admit as a way to put the characters in different settings, explore genres, use existing sets, etc. it's far superior to "we just happened to encounter a planet with an uncanny resemblance to the Old West!"

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I always found the holodeck to be an unnecessary diversion in all the spin-off shows. The Fairhaven episodes seemed like pointless filler, just as the ones on TNG and DS9 that centered around holographic characters did. Because basically that's a different kind of show, on it's own. You could do a whole series about holodeck adventures and you don't need a space ship or a space station to support that premise.

 

 

 

 
 
 

I was just going to say, we saw what happened when the only setting were space ships in the reimagined Battlestar Galactica.  Do not wish for such a thing.  It is truly not desirable.  Oh god, the claustrophobic, melodramatic feel to those last two seasons where they rarely saw anything other than that ship.   

It's like how people will say they are distracted by the lack of realism in a show, every time a woman raises her arm and you can see a clean shaven/waxed armpit because "Who would take time shave at a time like that?? It's the apocalypse.  So distracting!"  

Then someone decides to go all gritty with details like that and you quickly discover, "Oh yeah, realism is related to the concept of reality...which I'm currently trying to escape by watching TV and ....BASIC HYGIENE STANDARDS PERIMETER BREACHED....can't unsee!  Can't unsee!"  

So you find there's a reason for suspending some reality that actually benefits the show.    Unless they become a planet of the week scifi show it gets really boring, really quickly to only have a few sets to work with and they clearly knew that would be a problem on the "we're primarily just trying to go home, so shouldn't be stopping willy nilly...." premise and added a fix that had new settings they thought the audience would get attached to.  

Some worked better than others in that capacity.  

So hey, I found the most awkward writing decisions in the entire series.   In the last handful of episodes, we have yet another episode about the Doctor, as season seven was pretty Doctor heavy, not always doing the character any favors, like when he confesses his love to Seven and says the creepiest line ever uttered, "having to avert my eyes during routine maintenance...."  Hey, way to attain personhood recognition, Doctor!  By being a creeper about wanting to ogle his patient during exams.  Yes, you get into "yup, you're a life form, no doubt, no question...." by getting your first "only sentient life is capable of being that inappropriate in so many different ways, at once."  

Then he doesn't get downloaded into oblivion and everyone, including the audience sort of gets to stand around for a moment going, "So are we going to acknowledge the Giant Ew in the room? " and kind of delightfully, all the characters have a moment of clearly deciding that as part of the script, "Yup, we all know it's there, but let's step around this one, shall we?  All together now! Leap!"  conveyed via expression best read as "groups decides to politely ignore unfortunate digestive events from crew member."   

Edited by stillshimpy
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4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

I was just going to say, we saw what happened when the only setting were space ships in the reimagined Battlestar Galactica.  Do not wish for such a thing.  It is truly not desirable.  Oh god, the claustrophobic, melodramatic feel to those last two seasons where they rarely saw anything other than that ship.

So you find there's a reason for suspending some reality that actually benefits the show.    Unless they become a planet of the week scifi show it gets really boring, really quickly to only have a few sets to work with and they clearly knew that would be a problem on the "we're primarily just trying to go home, so shouldn't be stopping willy nilly...." premise and added a fix that had new settings they thought the audience would get attached to.  

I've always found the complaints about the holodeck really come down to one of two things. Writing or overthinking. Some people just don't like the show exploring other genres or doing non space focused stories. Although as I mentioned in my previous post that's pretty much been done since the beginning and I really do find it preferable to parallel planetary development, nigh omnipotent aliens scanning the data banks and recreating an environment, or spacetime phenomena that somehow always leave them on 20th Century Earth. And there are people that dislike specific holodeck stories or the way it's used. Which again applies to just about every element of the series. There are good and bad transporter stories, Klingon stories, time travel stories, etc. and the writers have overused or misused all of them at some point. The other big one is usually about the show being a show and not getting into everything we can think of. Yes we all know what humans use any new technology for, but we really don't need to think about Program Riker 69 thanks (they did hint at that aspect in DS9.) Yes they haven't really addressed all the issues that such a technology brings up and some of the details are absurdly primitive for something so advanced. Again that applies to just about everything on the show. And as they moved forward and understanding of AI has advanced they did start to explore some of the issues. Take away the holodeck and just about everything you can complain about would still be there in some other form.

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On 1/6/2017 at 0:16 AM, wknt3 said:

There are good and bad transporter stories, Klingon stories, time travel stories, etc. and the writers have overused or misused all of them at some point

I agree, some really were wonderful and some weren't, but it wasn't in the concept, it was in the execution.  

In an almost unrelated note, just within the last page or so I've been in here, complaining about why I don't dig the Klingons and concluding that it's because I just hate "Yells A Lot" as a defining sociological characteristic.  Having established that, something at least vaguely amusing to me (and maybe to others, or not, you know how these things go)  last night we had the finale playing in the background.  I was starting to fall asleep (due to fatigue, not boredom) when B'Elana started yelling while in false labor and the Doctor ticks it off as yet another symptom "misdirected inappropriate anger" and that made me laugh but I was also sleepy enough that we had the following exchange, "I kind of hate that about the Klingons, though."  "Why?"  "Because anger is the first thing you learn to emulate in acting class because it's the simplest thing to convey, so any hack can act the hell out of a standard yelling scene"  and I surprised myself so much, I snapped myself dead awake. 

And ....there it was.   All these years reacting to the Klingons, or any drama that runs to "and now people start screaming"  ....I used to complain about that on BSG, pretty much on a loop for two years, whenever EJO was onscreen because ...wow...did he abandon dramatic restraint in the later years.   Pretty much for close to two decades, I've complained about loud acting choices and I never once remembered that was the reason, the thing it was niggling in my brain.   The reason I just can't take it seriously:  It's the easiest thing to convey at the simplest level, almost any person can act angry if all it entails is making a lot of noise and using big gestures.   It's easier to play things broadly.  

Not that I'm some great acting critic or anything, it's just accidentally saying that half-asleep is the thing that made me remember that from classes lo those many years ago.  It takes more skill to play something with an and attached, "I'm ANGRY but I'm also really hurt and afraid that you'll think that's weak...."   Real emotions have complexity and layers.  When dealing with actual people, there's always more than one thing going on with them.  I say this over and over, and I apologize for that, but in real life situations,  more than one thing can be true at once and almost always is.   

Again, the toothpaste cap fights that are never just about the cap being off the toothpaste.  

In relationships, those kind of fights are about a lot of things and also, power dynamics are at play.  Some of the actors who played the Klingon characters in the Treks were amazing.  They had that kind of range.  They had that kind of complexity, even when yelling.   It's just that because they were representing a society they almost always came with other Klingon, background characters.   Some of whom were day players and fated to be so for the rest of their lives, because without seeking to be unkind, not everyone has the kind of talent it takes to bring layers to that kind of scene.  

I actually found the actor who played B'elanna, Roxanne Dawson, had that kind of talent and complexity.   As did Michael Dorn.  There are absolutely standouts in those performances hwo just...freaking...brought...it.   But not everyone can and it showed too often in the Klingon stories.

By the way, the thing that made me laugh is that, really in a departure for her because of the script setup for comedy with the Doctor's awesome delivery, Roxann Dawson dialed up the cliche'd yelling and took out anything resembling complexity because it's a funny moment and she's supposed to be embodying a symptom.  She goes through a list of things that are just like that, very one note, "Pregnant Klingons do this...." and are meant to do so.  

It was the contrast to her regular performance style that finally helped me figure out what the hell is with my reaction to the Klingons.  

Sorry to have gone on about it, again, at length, but for me it was a real "Oh crap, talk about epiphanies ....how many times have I written about this thing I have with Klingons, trying to figure it out?" light bulb moment and it's always bothered me that the Klingons irk me...I don't mean just in the "Hey, Klingons irk me, let me tell you why in 8472 words! Conjunctions don't count, do they?"  I mean because I have a genuine respect for a lot of the performances, absolutely the actors, and I never realized it's because when they are bad, they are acting class 101 stuff.  Exaggeration to cover for ineptitude in craft.   

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12 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

"Hey, Klingons irk me, let me tell you why in 8472 words!

I see what you did there...

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On ‎17‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:21 AM, friendperidot said:

And related to the topic title, I notice that all the shows take place in Alpha or Delta Quadrants. Are there a Beta and Gamma Quadrant or are they Bravo and Charlie?

Technically, Earth spends six months of the year in the Beta Quadrant: similar to the Prime Meridian on Earth (which runs through London - Greenwich to be exact) the dividing line between the two sectors runs from the Galactic Centre through Sol (ie. our sun). Presumably it's purely a translation convention that we hear all the other races refer to the Sectors in the same way!

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Just got finished watching the series finale, "Endgame," on H&I. I always appreciated how they ended the series, and I would have been very unhappy if they hadn't gotten home by the end (which apparently they initially didn't intend to do). The whole thing was very bittersweet and gave me closure on their story. I look forward to re-watching the pilot episode now, as it's been years since I've seen it and I'm vague on some of the details. 

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Last night's episode, Learning Curve, Season 1, episode 15, had the funniest line. "Bring the cheese into sick bay." It just made me giggle and I started singing "The Farmer in the Dale", "the cheese stands alone, the cheese stands alone, heigh ho the dairy-o, the cheese stands alone."

Editing because I got a new Kindle Fire today, my old one is perfectly fine, I've had it almost 4 years, but the new ones are colors, I got a blue one! They are a great price and they have Alexa. I never knew I wanted one until Amazon told me I could order things on my old Kindle Fire. I haven't figured out how, even with the directions, I have little interest in ordering things, but suddenly I want to say things like, "Computer, take us out of warp." or "Computer, where is Lt. Kim?" I blame this on a friend of mine. So far, I've only asked about tomorrow's weather and I don't think I can change the name to "Computer". And I will probably pass my old Kindle to my sister to use as a reader, that's mostly what I use it for.

Edited by friendperidot

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It's been a couple of weeks, so I'll just continue to talk to myself! Tonight's episode had a landing party on a seemingly deserted planet, but Ch'cotay felt a strong pull. Seems that the inhabitants had visited earth hundreds or maybe thousands of years ago and had visited Ch'cotay's ancestors. I wasn't paying a lot of attention, but I did enjoy the episode. And it made me want to live in the Star Trek universe where humans have overcome their need to destroy our planet and use up all of our natural resources.

But, they sure do land Voyager on a lot of planets. Never noticed that in any of the other series. Most of the time they take smaller vessels or transport/beam.

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8 hours ago, friendperidot said:

It's been a couple of weeks, so I'll just continue to talk to myself! Tonight's episode had a landing party on a seemingly deserted planet, but Ch'cotay felt a strong pull. Seems that the inhabitants had visited earth hundreds or maybe thousands of years ago and had visited Ch'cotay's ancestors. I wasn't paying a lot of attention, but I did enjoy the episode. And it made me want to live in the Star Trek universe where humans have overcome their need to destroy our planet and use up all of our natural resources.

But, they sure do land Voyager on a lot of planets. Never noticed that in any of the other series. Most of the time they take smaller vessels or transport/beam.

That's because the other ships are too big to land on a planet.  Voyager is the only one that is small enough that she can be landed safely and easily.

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6 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

 Voyager is the only one that is small enough that she can be landed safely and easily.

It was also the only large ship (bigger than shuttles or runabouts) that was designed to have landing capabilities.  None of the Enterprises had that capability.

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So H&I is about eight episodes into the second season, and this is where Janeway's hairstyle keeps changing from a bob to an upsweep 'do from episode to episode. I wonder if there were a bunch of episodes aired out of sequence of if the show simply couldn't settle on a hairstyle for her until Season 3. 

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15 hours ago, friendperidot said:

I've noticed that, one night her hair was long and hanging down, next night it was chin length, last night it was in an elaborate up do. 

Yes, the episodes were aired out of order. Kate Mulgrew even had an interview in TV guide about her new hairstyle, but said it would be back and forth for most of the season because the filming schedule was done due to other actors summer commitments. If you notice in the season some actors appear only in certain sequences. 

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I know this place isn't too active but I am hoping a fan or two is reading here who can answer a question for me.  I've just rewatched the time travel episode where we first meet Capt Braxton.  He says at the end that he "never lived that timeline" yet a few years later when he reappears it's because obviously he had and had been really screwed up by it.  Anyway that aside why does he act like Janeway did something so terrible?  She only refused to let him destroy her ship and kill all her crew but he talks as if she didn't pass him the salt at dinner and that created chaos in his life.  So is it that the writers of the later episode forgot what he'd asked her to do or were they hoping the viewers would?

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