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Past Seasons Talk: From Seattle Grace to Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital

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I don't even know what season is happening on Lifetime right now, but I always keep an eye out for the hospital gunman episode and I just saw the CUTEST two scenes, right in a row:

 

"Woman, I am naked and I look good"  and   "Well, this could be fun. . .if we let it."  Unable-to-form-coherent-speech Bailey and that little squidge peeking out from under Sloan's covers to bat her eyes at Teddy--squeeee.

 

Gosh, I can't remember the last time I rewound a chunk of Grey's just because I was so tickled.

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I missed a few of the middle seasons of the show.  I missed the seasons in which April/Jackson/Arizona/Owen came on the show.  And I missed all of the Dead Denny stuff.  I set a series record for the reruns that are showing on Lifetime.  I'm extremely overwhelmed because there's already 45 episodes, but I'm at least FF'ing through them to see what I missed.

 

I've heard all the dead Denny stuff mocked for years, but I think it would have really moved me at the time.  I adored Denny.  It's not nearly as bad as I've read.  It seems to have been triggered by a cardiac patient, and it also seems to be helping Izzie process her relationship with Alex.  From what I've read, this is all simply symptoms from a brain tumor, but it's working for me outside of that.

 

Since I missed the early years of Owen and Cristina's relationship, I was never very invested in it.  I didn't like their abortion storyline, was moved when Owen bathed Cristina when she had PTSD, but I didn't know their origins.  Burke and Cristina were it for me, so I didn't think anything would come close.  I'm really liking it.  From Cristina cleaning his wound, and Owen taking the stapler and closing his own wound.  The way they were drawn to each other right away.  And then culminating with him showing up drunk and late for their first date, her chewing him out and telling him to shower, and him getting confused and getting in her shower fully clothed.  I almost loved it.  He told her about his best surgery ever, which just happened to be his worst as well, and then her taking off her shoes and getting in there with him with her clothes on - it was good.

 

I like Melissa George, but I'm not liking Sadie and her bizarre relationship with Meredith.  Why does she call her death?

 

 

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As in MereDEATH and SaDIE. It's a play on their names and I guess their gloomy disposition. Never liked any of the story lines with Sadie but I always thought that the nicknames were clever.

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That period in the middle of season five with Izzie/Denny, the interns cutting into each other because no one will teach them and Sadie generally being the most ill conceived character ever is just a perfect storm of terrible television. Which is a shame since Meredith's interaction with the serial killer, as fucked up as it was, made for some good television. Meredith breaking down after witnessing his execution gutted me at the time, and is one of Pompeo's best acting moments on the show, imo.

 

Izzie/Dead Denny should have been condensed. I loved the way they introduced that storyline in 5x07, with the guy who was originally supposed to get the heart at the end of season two coming into the hospital and making Izzie relive everything that happened with Denny. If they had just used that to show that Izzie had moved on and Denny vanished at the end of the episode, that would have been great and they could have hinted at the illness in another way. Obviously Denny in season five was a symptom of Izzie's tumour, but the whole thing was mishandled with him randomly popping up at Alex's side or the ghost sex or Izzie slapping and shoving him. Heigl really rocked that material though, and the latter half of the season is great. I particularly enjoyed Izzie letting Cristina in on her secret first, and it's a shame Heigl left soon after because their dynamic was so much fun to watch after that point.

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manbearpig, I just saw that episode and I agree with you.  Eric Stoltz was great as the death row inmate, and I cried at the end.  Between Bailey breaking down in shame because she wanted to let him die (so a child could get his organs), and Meredith sobbing to Derek after watching the inmate die, it was a powerful episode.  This was the Bailey I remember liking.

 

And Heigel did great work leading up to the brain tumor diagnosis.  It's a shame she burned her bridges with Shonda, because I think she could help get the show back on track.  Pay Sandra Oh a fortune to get her back, and the ratings would surely spike.

 

ETA:  I never cared for Mark and Lexie as a couple, but I'm liking the origins of their relationship.

Edited by RedheadZombie
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Just finished season 5, and what a finale it was.  Bailey turns down the peds fellowship because she's decided to divorce Tucker, and breaks down as Richard attempts to comfort her.  Cristina realizes she wants to be with Owen.  Unable to get to city hall that day, Derek and Meredith write their vows on the blue post-it-note.  Alex is celebrating that Izzie has her long-term memory back, when she codes in his arms.  Meredith realizes that John Doe is George, and runs screaming into the OR.  Alex refuses to honor Izzie's DNR, and Chief and the rest perform CPR.  George is rushed into ER, but he's crashing. 

 

It ends with Izzie entering the elevator in the pink prom dress she wore when Denny died.  The doors open and it's George in Army uniform.  And it ends on that cliff hanger.  I've never seen this season, and I cried quite a bit.  God this show used to be so good.

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I love how Season Five is now considered gold standard GREY'S when in comparison to what's currently being produced. Hasn't that always been the way with this show? The metaphorical greener grass expands with each passing season as standards of quality are lowered. 

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I've heard all the dead Denny stuff mocked for years, but I think it would have really moved me at the time.  I adored Denny.  It's not nearly as bad as I've read.  It seems to have been triggered by a cardiac patient, and it also seems to be helping Izzie process her relationship with Alex.  From what I've read, this is all simply symptoms from a brain tumor, but it's working for me outside of that.

 

I am one who haaaated the Dead Denny stuff.  I mean, I kind of lost my mind over it LOL!  My old posts on TWoP were psychotic, rage-fueled rants and I'm surprised that a mod didn't ban me and suggest counseling.  I couldn't watch the show without pacing and muttering to myself.  That was when I was too invested in the show, I am much better now!

 

I was a big Alex/Izzie fan and had waited 3 seasons for them to finally get their shit together after Gizzie and Ava and right when they seemed to be on the right track, swarthy, drawling DEAD-ass Denny shows up to ruin everything!  I have to think that knowing ahead of time that it was a medical problem would make the situation more palatable.  But at the time, it was unclear if he was a ghost and they were doing some kind of "Truly, Madly, Deeply" thing, if Izzie was going crazy like Ava did or what.  Denny showed up in scenes without Izzie, and Shonda came out and said it wasn't a tumor, so it was all very WTF.  The tone was all wrong, too.  Denny would be cracking jokes while Alex is professing his love and Izzie is either crazy or sick and Alex is going to end up heartbroken...HAHAHAHAHA...not.  Sorry, I am ranting again, how easily it all comes back to me.

 

Having said all of that, and even with all of the missteps, I think that season 5 was the last time that all of the characters interacted with one another in an organic and meaningful way and the last time that all of the storylines meshed into one, clear arc for a full season.

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I know that Derek has always been very tolerant of Cristina, but I always got the impression that he didn't really care for her.  I felt if not for her relationship with Meredith, he would never socialize with her, and certainly wouldn't be friends with her.

 

Having said that, I'm watching season seven, and Derek is really showing kindness, patience, and understanding to Cristina.  I'm referring to when Cristina suffered from PTSD from the hospital shooting, and quit.  Everyone was just spinning in circles and telling her what to do.  He defended her to Richard and others.  Derek stayed at the bar where Cristina was working, and just quietly watched while she got drunker and drunker, and more inappropriate with the college guys. At the end of the night, he called Owen to come pick her up.

 

He also knew she was being inundated with people telling her what she should do, so at her housewarming party, he sat with her and discussed her redecorating plans.  Then of all things - he took her fishing.  He's really acting like a great guy, and I may have to start liking him.

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I've been watching the reruns, too.  It's by no means a universal sentiment, but for me, Derek's the sun.  : )

 

He takes care of Yang, he takes care of Avery when Mark sidelines him, he takes care of Lexie, he takes care of his patients.  He lets the staff come out and stress-pound a wonky deck onto his house.  He takes care of his kids.  He takes care of Meredith--off and on--but certainly more than she ever takes care of him.

 

I feel his absence acutely on the current show.

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I feel his absence acutely on the current show.

 

Me too. Those 30 seconds that he's usually in, really make a difference.

 

I think that GA is somewhat struggling to make what the show is without two-ish (Derek was just gone for 6 episodes) of its main characters. And there are moments, where they almost seem to make it, like the tunnel scene last episode, but it's rare that those moments come at the form of the entire episode. Cristina & Derek being gone have left a big hole. Love them or hate them, their presence made some form of impact. 

 

Or maybe this show isn't for the nostalgia. I see the reruns on Lifetime and go "ah, used to be better than I remembered!"

 

Except S7. That one has no salvation in my eyes.

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I'm also in the midst of a full and complete bingewatch (or re-bingewatch, not sure) via Netflix. I thought I had seen all of the show (and I know I bingewatched it a few years ago). 

 

Seeing a bunch of the late-afternoon episodes during the summer of 2012 while on a beach vacation when it was actually too hot to go out and we sat inside and watched Grey's and the Olympics in air-conditioned condo inspired me to rewatch but it took awhile to get around to it.

 

Anyway, I really thought between bingewatch and real time I had seen all of the show but apparently I missed quite a bit here and there ... re-watching it, while I know a lot of the major plotlines (bomb in the chest, Izzie's ghost sex with Denny, George and the bus, etc.), there's apparently a LOT I either missed or forgot.

 

Either way, have been enjoying it immensely, and it's still full of surprises for me (though a little confusing on Thursday nights when I slip in a real-time episode). 

 

I had thought I had seen them all and just chalked the surprises up to AARP-brain until two nights ago when I watched "If/Then." I mean, come on. There is no way in the world I would have ZERO recollection of that episode! Loved it. So, I'm exactly midway through Season 8 and of course I DO know basically how it ends, but am wondering now if I may not recall everyone who was on the plane and/or dies (am thinking now, hmmmm, Teddy seems to be past her show expiration date, was she on the plane? I didn't remember anyone dying other than Lexie onsite and Mark later on in the hospital ... DON'T ANSWER THIS PLEASE! It's rhetorical LOL). 

 

I know, for example, maybe my favorite scene ever in the show was Richard's memory of dancing with Adele to "My Funny Valentine" at Bailey and Ben's wedding, but I didn't remember him singing it to her from the OP table. 

 

So if I'm losing my memory (should I get that gene test?), at least I'm getting to enjoy things as if it were the first time! That's good.

 

But yeah, watching the show makes me really bitter that Chandra Wilson has really never gotten her due in the awards department ... I'm a total Bailey lover, but she is amazing. And I understand it's hard to outshine Sandra Oh, but she is fantastic in her own right.

 

Oh, also? By re-watching I'm able to pick up a LOT of new songs for my iPod ... I've always felt Grey's had the best soundtrack of any show on TV and I had come into this with several Grey's-discovered songs high on my playlist ("My Heart With You" by the Rescues is a standout) but I've already picked up two more just in the last several episodes ... "Bang Bang" by K'Naan and "Watching You Watching Him" by Eric Hutchinson.

 

ETA -- if anyone is still with me here, and I'll understand if you're not -- I am really confused with one aspect of the entering new interns ... the first group was the Season 1 group, of course ... 

 

Then we got the Lexie kiddie crew, right?  in 2007?  (Are any of them left???)

 

Then April and Jackson et al came over in the merge with Mercy West in 2009, so they're not considered a new group of interns -- that was just a cast replenishment/expansion.

 

I keep thinking there was one other class of interns that was "introduced" but that none of them ever factored into any plotlines and none of them were keepers.

 

Then, finally, the most recent crew in 2012, with Jo, Stephanie, etc. (and Mousie RIP etc.). 

 

So, yeah, it should be time for a new class but am wondering about the timing of adding new groups ... shouldn't they technically be coming in every year?

Edited by PamelaMaeSnap
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Grey's Anatomy was the first TV series I started watching so I'm always drawn back to the previous seasons which were good. Now it's just a sloppy drama and with Yang gone, it's terrible. 

 

I never liked Meredith and I think Pompeo is a bad actress...but that didn't matter because the others carried it off well. I never liked the intern-attending romance plotlines but they were interesting nonetheless. Izzie was one of the best characters on the show but later the writing got so bad that she became whiny and unbearable. Introducing Denny was the worst thing and he was a pathetic bore...Izzie cutting the LVAD wire and whining about it later was just plain terrible. The Izzie-George romance was almost unwatchable and Shonda should've never done that. The unreasonable cutting out of Burke and George were some of the worst moments on the show.

The characters that I used to love, like Lexie, Mark, Teddy, George, Burke, Yang are all gone and now Callie, Arizona, Meredith have been reduced to nagging bores. Not to mention appalling plotlines, Jackson's horrible acting and Bailey, who was my favourite character and now is as whiny as the rest of them.

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Me too. Those 30 seconds that he's usually in, really make a difference.

 

I think that GA is somewhat struggling to make what the show is without two-ish (Derek was just gone for 6 episodes) of its main characters. And there are moments, where they almost seem to make it, like the tunnel scene last episode, but it's rare that those moments come at the form of the entire episode. Cristina & Derek being gone have left a big hole. Love them or hate them, their presence made some form of impact.

 

 

Derek is gone??? NO !!!! I haven't watched the entire seasons 10 and 11 so I don't know exactly...but every one of my favourites are gone. Derek, Bailey and Alex were the last ones left....and now I hear this??? 

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Which is a shame since Meredith's interaction with the serial killer, as fucked up as it was, made for some good television. Meredith breaking down after witnessing his execution gutted me at the time, and is one of Pompeo's best acting moments on the show, imo.

 

Izzie/Dead Denny should have been condensed. I loved the way they introduced that storyline in 5x07, with the guy who was originally supposed to get the heart at the end of season two coming into the hospital and making Izzie relive everything that happened with Denny. If they had just used that to show that Izzie had moved on and Denny vanished at the end of the episode, that would have been great and they could have hinted at the illness in another way. Obviously Denny in season five was a symptom of Izzie's tumour, but the whole thing was mishandled with him randomly popping up at Alex's side or the ghost sex or Izzie slapping and shoving him. Heigl really rocked that material though, and the latter half of the season is great. I particularly enjoyed Izzie letting Cristina in on her secret first, and it's a shame Heigl left soon after because their dynamic was so much fun to watch after that point.

Agreed! That episode with the death row inmate was powerful and skilfully acted. One of the best episodes. The Izzie-Christina dynamism around the time Izzie told her of the diagnosis was clever and superbly handled by 2 brilliant actors! IMO Denny was one of the worst characters and he ruined those episodes for me. Izzie should have stayed on, but her cutting the LVAD wire was terrible writing and made me despise her after that.

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Derek is gone??? NO !!!!

I, uh, spoiler alert? My bad. He's not gone, just absent for 6 episodes. Don't worry, he's back.

 

shouldn't they technically be coming in every year?

Technically but let's not give them ideas, they might bring them as recurring and we'd have to stand them. Let's leave it at technically.

 

I never liked Meredith and I think Pompeo is a bad actress...but that didn't matter because the others carried it off well. I never liked the intern-attending romance plotlines but they were interesting nonetheless. Izzie was one of the best characters on the show but later the writing got so bad that she became whiny and unbearable. Introducing Denny was the worst thing and he was a pathetic bore...Izzie cutting the LVAD wire and whining about it later was just plain terrible. The Izzie-George romance was almost unwatchable and Shonda should've never done that. The unreasonable cutting out of Burke and George were some of the worst moments on the show.

I used to really like Meredith and now find her unbearable, for times, (funny how things change). Her lack of self-awareness is testing me but have to admit her scenes with Derek are good. EP has some really great acting moments though. To name the last one was the one where she had broke in tears in the nanny interview. My personal opinion is that this show rarely gives her, or PD, a good opportunity to use those acting chops. SO had the best ones. 

 

I also found Izzie difficult to swallow when Denny was introduced. I don't know why SR was obsessed with Denny but I always hated all the SLs related to him.

 

I'm not sure what possessed the writers with George & Izzie. I really don't. The ONS was bad enough but pursue the relationship felt...incestous. It was terrible. No chemistry, nothing. Same with Lexie. Just no.

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I used to really like Meredith and now find her unbearable, for times, (funny how things change).

 

I loved her in season 1 & 2 (really!). By the end of S3 she was close to unbearable, after a few S4 episodes she was fully there.

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She goes in waves, I find. Sometimes tolerable and/or entertaining, sometimes completely insufferable. There was even a while (beginning of last season, I think) where she was actually the most reasonable adult on the show. Not so much this season, though.

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I spent a good chunk of the middle seasons disliking Meredith but along about season 9, when they made her the attending that all the interns were afraid of, I liked her again. Just the way she'd throw a withering look or a scathing remark at them to send them scurrying had me laughing my ass off. Not so much lately, sadly.

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I just watched the arc where drunk Alex spilled the beans about Meredith screwing around with Derek's clinical trial.  I'm kind of stunned by how often one person or another refers to Meredith as "the one person everyone in this hospital adores."  Really?!?

 

Watching the old stuff, with the new horrible Meredith in mind, I can see MANY incidents where she's just as rude and self-centered as she is now.  I guess we all just glossed over that side of her, at the time.

 

When Yang operates on Teddy's husband, they make a point of saying that Yang is indifferent to her patients as anything other than surgical opportunities.  Maybe Meredith just seemed all warm and fuzzy compared to that.

 

Or, more likely, the writers simply put these remarks in the script to justify that week's action. 

 

I think too much about this show.  I could've learned Italian instead.

 

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Candall, one of the things that really struck me during this bingewatch was the realization that I liked Addison SO much more than Meredith. And that, in fact, I really don't like Meredith at all.

 

The other thing is that by watching so many episodes strung together, especially the middle seasons, you see just enough moments where Karev shows his soft side with the kids that it makes his longevity on the show more understandable and makes him less of a one-trick douchepony.

 

Oh, and also? That Loretta Devine simply rocks. That is all.  I just finished watching the episode where she insists on moving into Rose Ridge. Not a dry eye in the guest room bed (I've relocated by choice during a week-long work schedule where I'm doing real-time work on the other side of the world ... oh, look. It's 3 p.m. Almost bedtime ... but first today's S8 pre-bed episode!)

 

 

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Meredith was the most unbearable resident in SeattleGraceMercyDeath, IMO. After Meredith screwed up Derek's trial in that asinine way, I was really irritated when Owen said that she was the most 'adored' and Alex appeared to assume the role of a punching bag (literally, in Christina's case.) She never really stood out as a powerful character on the show except maybe the first couple of seasons. Addison was, indeed, a better character whose absence was definitely felt after she left.

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Meredith was the most unbearable resident in SeattleGraceMercyDeath

For me, that title still belongs to Izzie. Meredith has her moments, and certainly out of her and Alex, she has some serious issues, but for me, Izzie will always be the worst. I think that the main problem with Meredith is her lack of self-awareness in how she affects everyone with choices she deems as the right one. S8 has been airing on Lifetime now and Derek says that she jumps into the water without knowing how deep the water is or on who she's going to fall on. This sums up my entire problem with her. She ruined the trial for Adele, without any concern for Derek or the people who Derek could've saved. It's always what is in her mind the right thing and everyone must bend to her will. Because she's always right. 

 

I do admit that I got to like Addison very much, especially on her own. She was definitely one of the best written characters. She had a presence that you could tell it mattered. 

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It would have been so nice if Kate Walsh had stayed on Grey's.  I don't know how many seasons Private Practice lasted--because I thought it was a terrible show--but Addison would be the rock star of GA by now.

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I can see MANY incidents where she's just as rude and self-centered as she is now.

 

Agree, she's always been this way except for very early on.  

I think that the main problem with Meredith is her lack of self-awareness in how she affects everyone with choices she deems as the right one.

 

 

She also has an air of entitlement. She never believes the rules apply to her. Its been consistent throughout the series.

It would have been so nice if Kate Walsh had stayed on Grey's.

 

I was rooting for Addison and Mark to get together for real and would have liked to see that had both stayed around. I loved Addison but I'm not sure they wouldn't have totally destroyed her had she stayed. At least at the end of Private Practice she was happy. 

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Count me among the fans who thought neither Addison nor Mark ever found love interests with whom they had as much sexual chemistry as they did with one another. 

 

Regarding Meredith, I appreciate that she's flawed. However, I don't appreciate the show's inability to properly explore it. And while they're commendable for making the show still viable over a decade after its debut, I think the writers have done a really marginal job of balancing Meredith as the fulcrum around which all the other characters rotate. The show was centered around her in the beginning, and she has always been integral to the show's success. 

 

There was major backlash about her character during Seasons Three-Five, and instead of exploring WHY some fans didn't respond to Meredith (the only time they ever came close to doing this was in the brilliant string of Post-Strike Season Four episodes), they gradually pushed her back among the rest of the ensemble (especially following Pompeo's pregnancy in Season Six). So the character was essentially stunted, and for a while, her "growth" was reserved for big OMG moments -- miscarriage, marriage, adoption, pregnancy, etc. It was less-than-compelling, to say the least. 

 

But these past two seasons, while loaded with innumerable disappointments, have been really interesting for Meredith. She has ACTUAL stories that come from her character and not her situation. Her stories aren't solely contingent on her being part of MerDer. 

 

The trick now is KEEPING Meredith as the center without ignoring the truth of how she's been written. In other words, she should stay the show's focus -- but only if the series is ready to honestly deal with her: fascinating flaws and all.   

Edited by upperco

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Going back to AnitaM86's comment about Meredith ruining the trial for Adele, I was hoping someone could clarify or clear something up for me ... I'm not sure if I just totally missed this among a mass of input as I've been watching or it wasn't explained ...

 

How was the clinical trial supposed to work? I had thought that the patients would either get the placebo or the active agent in the initial procedure, and then they would "follow up" over the next few years simply to watch the patient and see how they reacted ... 

 

Would the patients that had gotten the active agent been getting MORE of the drug? Or just be watched to see what happened?

 

Because we did see Adele get the active agent, and yet obviously her decline was pretty precipitous ... so does that mean that it might have been different if she'd had follow up care as prescribed by the clinical trial? Or does it suggest that the drug didn't really work?

 

If it was the latter (which is what I inferred), then she didn't really ruin it for Adele per se ... just for everyone else. In fact, much as I have no great affection for Meredith, her desire to get the drug to Adele was one of the few sides of humanity I saw in her that I liked.

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How was the clinical trial supposed to work? I had thought that the patients would either get the placebo or the active agent in the initial procedure, and then they would "follow up" over the next few years simply to watch the patient and see how they reacted ...

 

 

The Trial was supposed to be led in double blind, which means that neither the patient nor the Investigator knows what treatment was administered, and only after all study data are collected and the database locked can you start analysing and comparing the results.

 

By deliberately breaking the blind and attributing the active treatment to Adele, Meredith screwed up the whole randomization and the whole study methodology (btw, in real life, sealed enveloppes are used and Meredith's actions would have been caught immediately). By doing it, she invalidated the whole quality/control/ethics surrounding the trial, discrediting not only the study (how could you trust the results if treatments were allocated upon preferences and the blind not respected), but the whole team leading the study. Basically, everything done can be thrown to the garbage.

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Thank you for the explanation re: double blind and more details about how such a clinical trial works ... I definitely did not know a lot of that!

 

So, the patients (both those who got the active agent and those who got the placebo) would meet with "investigators" conducting the study over a period of years and only after that time would either of those two sides know who got what ... but the doctors knew in the operating room, according to the script ...

 

But you're saying that in a real clinical trial even the doctors would not know?

 

But what I STILL don't know is whether a second dose (or more) of the drug is administered at later dates ... 

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that a LOT of people's lives were potentially ruined by Mer's actions ... the doctors, the hospital, for sure -- and most of all other potential patients and people suffering from Alzheimer's if the drug did turn out to be a possible cure.

 

But if Adele got the active agent, which from what I can tell she did due to Mer's actions, then in effect this should not have affected her adversely per se ... maybe she wouldn't be a participant in the follow-up, but if she got the full dose of the active agent, wouldn't that imply that the drug itself was not working as hoped?

 

 

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Everyone would have received identical followup.  Researchers ultimately have to be able to factor in "placebo effect" and other possible outside influences on both sets of subjects when they calculate the efficacy of a new drug.  So no one would have been ripping open envelopes in the operating room--ongoing impartiality couldn't be trusted if anyone knew who got what.

 

You're right on target with the potential for harm little Mer caused--a possible cure for Alzheimer's, down the drain.  Not to mention ruining a second shot at that particular miracle, since only Richard saved Derek from being totally discredited--and now Derek's off in DC, developing a similar project.

 

It kind of strains credulity that Meredith, even Meredith, would risk imploding something so important.  "Oops, I got flustered and dropped the purloined test envelope out from under my jacket.  Sorry, hundreds of thousands of devastated family members like me."

 

And then everyone hated Alex for getting Meredith in such a pickle?  Puh-leeze. 

Edited by candall
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What I never quite understood about the whole trial issue was why someone else couldn't pursue it elsewhere in a new study. I understand that all results from this one would be negated, and that you wouldn't want anyone from this team anywhere near it, but it just seems kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to just abandon the drug altogether. If there was a a legit possibility that this was a promising treatment, shouldn't that be worth pursuing?

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Have you ever read "And The Band Played On"?  The American research team preferred to let people keep dying at an alarming rate from a horrifying mystery disease rather than share the information the French researchers needed to isolate the AIDS virus.

 

Competitive field, that.

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If there was a a legit possibility that this was a promising treatment, shouldn't that be worth pursuing?

I can't remember the exact line but I think Derek sent some of the work done to several doctors. It was on 8x03, when Richard went to ask Derek if he had heard anything about Zola and he was packing the results. If someone could correct me in this, it'd be appreciated. 

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Alex told on Meredith because he was mad she was the front runner for the Chief Resident position. He didn't care she compromised the trial.

That's not entirely accurate. Yes, he was pissed and blurted it out to Owen when he was drunk but there was more before that. He saw Meredith with the envelopes and confronted her more than once telling her how her actions were illegal and impact everyone. In her usual nasty, entitled,condescending tone she told him she did nothing wrong and he should shut up. Alex was wrong for the way he told Owen but he was not wrong for reporting what she did.

 

And then everyone hated Alex for getting Meredith in such a pickle?  Puh-leeze.

 

Doctors would have hated Meredith. She is the one that cost them all research opportunities since the FDA would blacklist the hospital.  Residents would potentially lose the chance to learn and work on trials, all because of Meredith. I have a hard time believing that all the doctors would be so upset about their beloved Meredith. Par for the course Meredith suffered no consequences because Richard took the fall for her and Alex was the hated one.

 

ETA: here's one clip: 

Edited by windsprints
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That's not entirely accurate. Yes, he was pissed and blurted it out to Owen when he was drunk but there was more before that. He saw Meredith with the envelopes and confronted her more than once telling her how her actions were illegal and impact everyone. In her usual nasty, entitled,condescending tone she told him she did nothing wrong and he should shut up. Alex was wrong for the way he told Owen but he was not wrong for reporting what she did.

He wasn't planning on telling anyone  until Cristina made the comment that Meredith was the front runner for the Chief Resident position.  Let's not forgot Alex  funded his own clinic by berating a patient to pay for it. He was lucky that Lexie never said anything and kept his secret. I would have had more respect for him if he had told Owen right away and was not doing his own questionable decisions around the same time.

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He wasn't planning on telling anyone  until Cristina made the comment that Meredith was the front runner for the Chief Resident position.  Let's not forgot Alex  funded his own clinic by berating a patient to pay for it. He was lucky that Lexie never said anything and kept his secret. I would have had more respect for him if he had told Owen right away and was not doing his own questionable decisions around the same time.

I'm not forgetting anything Alex did. Alex has made plenty of mistakes throughout the series. The difference (for most characters, not just Alex) is that Meredith always skates by with everyone pushing aside what she does and putting her on a pedestal.  I do agree that Alex should have immediately went to Owen. Instead he confronted her and tried to tell her to own up. He should have known better.

Edited by windsprints
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The Trial was supposed to be led in double blind, which means that neither the patient nor the Investigator knows what treatment was administered, and only after all study data are collected and the database locked can you start analysing and comparing the results.

 

By deliberately breaking the blind and attributing the active treatment to Adele, Meredith screwed up the whole randomization and the whole study methodology (btw, in real life, sealed enveloppes are used and Meredith's actions would have been caught immediately). By doing it, she invalidated the whole quality/control/ethics surrounding the trial, discrediting not only the study (how could you trust the results if treatments were allocated upon preferences and the blind not respected), but the whole team leading the study. Basically, everything done can be thrown to the garbage.

I hated everything about the Alzheimer trial, so my memory is fuzzy.  But, i'm pretty sure it wasn't a true double blind study since the doctors saw whether it was the active agent or the placebo before injecting it.  This really makes it a single blind study, right?  Of course, this doesn't justify Meredith's actions....just curious on thoughts about Single Blind vs. Double Blind.

 

 

Meredith was the most unbearable resident in SeattleGraceMercyDeath, IMO. After Meredith screwed up Derek's trial in that asinine way, I was really irritated when Owen said that she was the most 'adored' and Alex appeared to assume the role of a punching bag (literally, in Christina's case.)

 

I also hated the whole chief resident storyline, so this was not my favorite season of the show (clearly).  I actually really like Meredith as a character, but I too scratched my head when Owen called Meredith the "most liked person in the hospital"....especially coming from Owen.  She was basically never a fan of Owen/Crowen.

Edited by Greysaddict
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Alex told on Meredith because he was mad she was the front runner for the Chief Resident position. He didn't care she compromised the trial.

I don't think it was that she was the front runner, because he was pretty high on the list himself. It was more that every single person that he came across raved about how great and honest Meredith was. He was a crappy friend to turn her in, but he was imploring her to turn herself in long before he did it, so I don't think that he didn't care about the trial. And yes, he did berate the woman into giving money for his Africa project, but she gave double the amount that he asked for, so she couldn't have been that reluctant.

I hated the Chief Resident storyline for so many reasons. Alex didn't get the CR because 1). He's Alex so, of course he didn't; 2). Meredith was head cheerleader and all the popular kids wouldn't sit with Alex at lunch after he turned her in, because she was SO universally beloved throughout the hospital, even though she was just as likely to treat a person like crap as she was to treat them nicely; and 3). the fact that SHE did something wrong didn't matter, it only mattered that Alex turned her in. Everything was his fault.

Warning - my bitterness is growing as the season progresses.

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I don't think it was that she was the front runner, because he was pretty high on the list himself. It was more that every single person that he came across raved about how great and honest Meredith was. He was a crappy friend to turn her in, but he was imploring her to turn herself in long before he did it, so I don't think that he didn't care about the trial. And yes, he did berate the woman into giving money for his Africa project, but she gave double the amount that he asked for, so she couldn't have been that reluctant.

No she wasn't Owen said he was going to give it to Alex. However, Cristina told Alex she was to get inside his head the way and I guess since she was married to Owen that made Alex believe her.

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You know, the real world fallout from Meredith's choices during that trial would have made for some really compelling television.  It also would have been a way to write a character or two off the show, since I have no doubt that any doctor who pulls such a stunt in real life gets fired on the spot at a minimum.  Now, Meredith would have to be replaced by someone else, since she's the main character and all, but that's a minor point.  Hell, they could have written this as Izzie's exit story as it's completely in character for someone like her to purposefully mess with a blind trial.  Since Alex was considered the bad guy for spilling the beans on Meredith, it's not a stretch to imagine him getting ostracized for Izzie's actions due to being married to her.  Then they get divorced like we saw and he has to fight to keep his position with the hospital and reputation as a doctor in the wake of her leaving in disgrace.  There's plenty of soap opera potential from this fallout that has nothing to do with bomb threats, shootings, ghost sex, or any of the insane things that actually took place, so I wish they'd gone there.

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I hated everything about the Alzheimer trial, so my memory is fuzzy. But, i'm pretty sure it wasn't a true double blind study since the doctors saw whether it was the active agent or the placebo before injecting it. This really makes it a single blind study, right? Of course, this doesn't justify Meredith's actions....just curious on thoughts about Single Blind vs. Double Blind.

Apparently MY memory is the fuzzy one, but working as Clinical trial Manager, the idea that IT could be single blind, considering the importance of the trial, never crossed my mind. Requirements in terms of methodology when IT comes to such important drugs are up the roof, a single blind study wouldn't be that well received. The only way I can see it is if the team administrering the drug would have later no involvement in the patient's follow-up (but the Risk that they could disclose the treatment to the evaluator doing the follow-up, So..). But hey, surgeons must pull their hair watching this show, So I should put my work-goggles aside when watching Clinical trials on TV Shows.

As for Alex, the way he told Owen was wrong, but, as said, he was the only one shat on profusely when Meredith did screw up royally. And there's the context: he was drunk and in a funk because Lucy just took "his" job in Africa, and here comes Cristina telling him that being CR is impossible for him because Meredith is So perfect and So much better than him. I don't excuse him but I understand the bitterness

Edited by Coxfires
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Warning - my bitterness is growing as the season progresses.

 

 

My motto,too. I feel the same way. This is what this season has been for me, bitterness, no joy.

Edited by Season5OwenHuntfan
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As for Alex, the way he told Owen was wrong, but, as said, he was the only one shat on profusely when Meredith did screw up royally. And there's the context: he was drunk and in a funk because Lucy just took "his" job in Africa, and here comes Cristina telling him that being CR is impossible for him because Meredith is So perfect and So much better than him. I don't excuse him but I understand the bitterness

I guess I would have more sympathy for Alex if it involved any character besides Meredith. Up to that point Meredith was really there for Alex when no one else was. Not that she should be excused for what she did with the trial, but I think she deserved better from Alex than him blabbing because he was jealous of who her mother was. Especially when Cristina was pretty much known to mess with peoples heads like that.

 

The real issue is Adele should never have been in that trial to begin with. I thought Webber pressuring Meredith to give Adele the drug was pretty shitty of him. I feel like he was given a slap on the wrist. All he had to do was resign as chief.

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The real issue is Adele should never have been in that trial to begin with. I thought Webber pressuring Meredith to give Adele the drug was pretty shitty of him. I feel like he was given a slap on the wrist. All he had to do was resign as chief.

That was the start of a series of truly abominable episodes I could barely watch. As Chief of surgery, that kind of behaviour is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that Derek put Adele on the trial when one of the patients quit was stupid too, considering he himself said there was a waiting list of hundreds of patients fulfilling the criteria for participation, unlike Adele. Oh well, I get that it's a TV drama, but jeez, we who are watching are not morons. The most ridiculous was when Christina-- who claims to be a thorough professional when it comes to medicine, not caring about colleagues and so on-- punched Alex for telling on Meredith. Let's not even get to how (royally) Mer was treated, because I could rant on viciously about that for days.

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I never liked Meredith and I think Pompeo is a bad actress...but that didn't matter because the others carried it off well

 

I spent years hating Meredith (I was so happy when she drowned!), but even then she could easily bring me to tears.  I think EP is a subtle actress, and that will never get the same appreciation as those who chew scenery (you know who I'm talking about).  Strangely, now that everyone hates Meredith, I love her.

 

I've been re-watching seasons 5-8 (most of which I originally missed) and I'm appreciating Meredith.  I think EP does a lot without words.  When Richard berated her because he was unwilling to consider Adele had Alzheimer's, her facial reactions said it all.  She kept her composure, but was a little shaky afterwards.  And the scene in which Cristina runs into the OR for Meredith because Zola needs emergency surgery, all Cristina does is stare at Meredith, and you can see Meredith understands.  A lot of good eye acting on this show.

 

Not having seen it the first time, I really enjoyed the trial tampering fallout.  I didn't mind everyone coming down on Alex because I knew it wouldn't last long, and I would appreciate them all forgiving each other.  Meredith, although she didn't know it, almost immediately forgave Alex.  When she brought Zola home, she went looking for him and just looked at his empty room and stripped bed.  And I loved Meredith's reaction when Cristina came over.  To paraphrase:  They gave me a baby, and she's asleep upstairs in a dead kids port-a-crib.

 

And I loved the makeup between Alex and Cristina.  Cristina accidentally inject Alex with epi, he falls to the ground with an undiagnosed heart arrhythmia, and she has to cardiovert him.  As he's wheeled out of the OR, he's yelling at Cristina to not touch his gurney.  Arizona tells him that he needs to make up with his friends because he's not getting backed up, and that's not good for him or his career.  Cristina comes to drag him out of bed to help cover up Meredith's baby-snatching, and he snaps at her that they're not backing him, and they're supposed to.   She's like - ok already, I forgive you.  And he gives a little nod.  Then she's roughly hooking him up for an EKG and he's complaining, and she's calling him a baby.  That's what I always liked about this show.  I know a lot of people hate how Alex is treated, but that's what makes him an underdog.  Plus, Alex always responds to this kind of tough love, probably because of his dysfunctional background.

 

Then there's Mark.  I never liked him.  I missed a lot of his seasons, and didn't really get when people here would say they missed him.  I thought he was a man-whore and the weakest actor on the show.  God, there was a scene where he was supposed to cry and it was just awful - no tears at all, just facial contortions.  Anyway, I'm more appreciative now.  He was a huge part of the humor, and he was a devoted daddy.  Seeing him hauling Sofia around everywhere he went was sweet.  I enjoyed season eight when he showed up at Derek's country home.  It was an all guys episode, and they were all taking out different frustrations by helping Derek build his deck.  Mark was jealous that Derek was stealing Avery, and he marches up with Sofia and yells at Avery to get in the car.  It was hilarious.  Mark went from yelling at Derek to defending Derek.  And then Owen steps in to take Sofia, and we know Cristina just had an abortion he didn't want.  It was all sweet.  Then Alex (I think) makes a crack to Avery that either Derek or Mark will be asking him to the prom.

 

ETA:  And when Zola was taken away, it was Alex who comforts Meredith.  He puts his arm around her and supports her as they leave.  It reminded me of the most recent episode when he forces a hug on Meredith when she loses a patient.  And when Alex came in to tell them that Zola's surgery went well, Meredith reached out and grabbed his hand.  I like these moments between the two of them, because it was always Meredith and Cristina's friendship that was center stage.

 

Cristina stays with Zola all night, and Owen has to leave because it's hard for him to see how loving and natural Cristina is with Zola.  And I loved that aspect of Cristina.  I think it was important to show that Cristina didn't choose to not have children because she hated them.  She just loved surgery more, and unlike Ellis, she made the right choice for herself and her hypothetical children.

Edited by RedheadZombie
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Then there's Mark... He was a huge part of the humor, and he was a devoted daddy.  Seeing him hauling Sofia around everywhere he went was sweet.  I enjoyed season eight when he showed up at Derek's country home.  It was an all guys episode, and they were all taking out different frustrations by helping Derek build his deck.  Mark was jealous that Derek was stealing Avery, and he marches up with Sofia and yells at Avery to get in the car.  It was hilarious.  Mark went from yelling at Derek to defending Derek.  And then Owen steps in to take Sofia, and we know Cristina just had an abortion he didn't want.  It was all sweet.  Then Alex (I think) makes a crack to Avery that either Derek or Mark will be asking him to the prom.

This was one of my favorite episodes ever. And while Mark and Avery together were frequently hilarious (e.g., the Plastics Posse, the Rock-Paper-Scissors bit?), he also had great funny moments with Derek, Cristina, Callie and Alex.

 

I know the actors don't write their own lines, but I can't understand why the quips that Mark Sloan always came up with completely disappeared from the show when Eric Dane left. It's like he took "the funny" with him. It must have been his delivery, i.e., he's a better comic actor than we may give him credit for.

 

TBH, I miss him more than Cristina.

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In some ways, I think the show loses more of itself with every passing season, but there are some years that have better stories/arcs than others, making them seem more successful. Additionally, I think the revolving door of show runners has impacted the sound of the show. Vernoff's tenure (Season Four thru the first half of Season Seven) was particularly marked by trite repetitious dialogue in which each character sounded the same. I think Phelan and Rater (Season Seven thru Season Ten) had a better grasp of individual character voices. The series was better under Vernoff's reign due to more complex characters and original stories, but the characterizations seem to have become more self-aware in the later years -- which is necessary in a show as soapy as GREY'S.

 

As I still try to sort out my own personal sentiments, I'd like to pose a question: Is the general consensus that the series' post-S2 trajectory has been continual decline, or do you feel that there have their been seasonal peaks and valleys with regard to quality? In other words, is every season a little bit worse than the one that came before -- or is it more complicated than that?

Edited by upperco

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To be honest, I thought the beginning of this season had some of the strongest episodes I'd seen in years. The editing, the writing, and acting were all really great. Since coming back, it's just been lackluster and without focus.

 

I also think the show does best when they have the characters actually talk to each other instead of this insipid repetition of dialogue that is probably supposed to be dramatic, but sounds sophomoric.

 

"You called me and a woman answered my phone."

"I called you and a woman answered your phone."

 

Is that the best they can do?

 

I also think there are too many characters. I'm at a loss to explain why they lost nurses (Tyler, Olivia) or similar characters who could provide interesting interplay with our main characters with no need for character focus. Instead, we have some characters, namely Richard, Bailey, and Stephanie who have no consistent or interesting story.

 

The only good thing about having a large cast is that it gives actors (all of them) some time off the set.

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