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A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

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7 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

And that explanation didn't work because it directly contradicted what Hades said about the power of the Olympic crystal being the complete, utter, and irreversible destruction of the person it was used on: "No afterlife. No moving on."  So Robin's soul couldn't have gone anywhere because according to Hades, it no longer existed after the Olympic crystal killed him.  Of course, A&E simply had to claim that Hades was lying when he told Regina about the crystal's power, but they apparently weren't smart enough for that.

A&E did indeed end up insinuating that Hades was lying, through Henry's words to Regina in "The Savior", and she ends that episode concluding that Robin is at peace.  

 

22 hours ago, Mitch said:

People can now wish human beings with a soul into reality. I think their lame explanation for WishRobin was that Robin's soul had to go somewhere and when Emma wished up her world..it went to his double.Dumb but preferable then Wish people running around at random.

I don't think A&E confirmed that explanation.  Do you mean fans were using that explanation?   I agree some sort of explanation would have been preferable over the randomness of the Wish Realm people.

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More Adam fuzzy logic for you all to enjoy:

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Tanesha enderle‏ @Ouat_lover56  4 hours ago

@AdamHorowitzLA how was Henry born in the alternate reality if Emma never went to the real world and met Neal because he was there

Adam Horowitz‏ @AdamHorowitzLA  4h4 hours ago

It was a realm created by a wish, so it didn't strictly follow as an alternate history. Wish rules and history rules are different

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA

Replying to @AdamHorowitzLA @Ouat_lover56   So it stands to reason Emma met baelfire in the wish realm not our world

 

It "stands to reason"?  How can you reason when there are no rules to reason with?

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I was just thinking about the latter "battles" on this show, and the take-away message.  Which is - just give up and prepare to die and hope everything will turn out okay in the last moment from some random unexpected source.

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The twists and cliffhangers tonight would have worked better if Once didn't have such a horrible track record. If Belle stayed independent, if Rumple stayed powerless (at least a long while), if Robin were actually gone for good, and if the Queens of Darkness actually posed a deadly threat, then 4B would be anticipated much more. But I doubt any of that is going to hold for long. I'm looking at the mid-season finales of the last two seasons, and it looks very bleak.

Found this quote by me from after 4x12 aired. I love how all of it turned out to be completely accurate.

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I didn't watch this whole thing yet but this person needed 40 minutes to show just some of the "problems" (continuity errors, retcons, etc.).  The background music is a little annoying and some of the segments are too long, but there are some amusing editing choices and captions.  Though one could argue that some of the problems weren't problems.

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14 hours ago, Camera One said:

I didn't watch this whole thing yet but this person needed 40 minutes to show just some of the "problems" (continuity errors, retcons, etc.).  The background music is a little annoying and some of the segments are too long, but there are some amusing editing choices and captions.  Though one could argue that some of the problems weren't problems.

I haven't watched the whole thing yet either, but I loved watching the consistencies pointed out that have been bothering me for a long time. The Queen of Hearts/Swan Song impossibility, Rumple "creating" the Dark Curse, Aurora's inconsistent story, etc. I think the whole "curse must be taken willingly" thing could be fanwanked as Regina using a different method to curse Snow. But that begs the question - why even do that? She was right in front of her, unarmed. The Cricket Game protection spell wasn't even a thing yet. Regina may have been batshit, but the whole "it must be taken willingly" doesn't really provide poetic justice or a means to her cause. 

Some of the inconsistencies are more of writing flaws than impossibilities. For example, a character will say something later proven false, but with no motive to lie. 

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I was watching some of the deleted scenes (beware... deleted scenes spoilers to follow), and no wonder Belle was largely absent after Gideon showed up in town... she had three deleted scenes where she worked with Zelena and later Hook and Charming, to try to get The Shears to cut Gideon from his destiny.  This pretty much explains why she is not in the position to reach out to Gideon later on.  Is that why A&E act as if Belle is just as much as fault as Rumple?  As usual, Zelena (this time) pulls out random magical knowledge like she could smell Black Fairy dust all over the Evil Queen Snake, and she even easily breaks Rumple's protection around the cabin, yet of course, the Dark Fairy dust doesn't work on Gideon.  I'm surprised they had David once again be more ruthless than Hook in eliminating the Gideon threat.  These are examples of deleted scenes that are better left on the cutting room floor, IMO.  The whole sub-arc was pointless and made the characters either seem mean & hypocritical or dumb & helpless or both, and made me LESS inclined to root for the Rumbelle-Gideon family unit.

I did like the longer cuts of the scenes with Snowing they cut (also from "Tougher than the Rest").  Did they film too much for the episode?  Or did they film some new stuff to replace all the stuff cut?  I'm assuming they decided to spend more screentime on the Wish Realm?

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Rewatching a little bit of S4, simply because a friend is trying to binge-watch it for the first time to catch up in time for S7. It's a good study case, since it's right in the middle of things and a transitional period between S1-S3 and S5-S7, which are very distinct halves. The writers seemed to have a lot more fun writing the S4 episodes. There were more quips, just-for-fun imagery, and plot urgency. Everything is so phoned in nowadays. As bad as S4 was, it was still miles above S6. All the other seasons were, to be honest. I found it funny that the montage in 4x12 wasn't very much different from the 6x22 one at all. Zelena wasn't there and Rumpbelle was split, but did it really matter? Zelena was tacked on and Belle should have stayed clear of Rumple.

I counted it out. The Emma/Hook reunion scene in 4x11 was 20 seconds max. That's ~0.79% of the episode's run time.

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In 4A, they were forced to write more deeply for more heroes than they usually allot, so it brought a different dynamic to that half season.  If you compare Elsa, Anna and Kristoff's importance in 4A vs. Aladdin and Jasmine's importance in 6A, the difference is vast.  In 4B, the villains were pure camp.  Though really, only Cruella was a success and she alone had 95% of the funnier moments in that arc.  Compared to the pathetic Black Fairy and the boring Gideon in 6B or the repetitive Evil Queen in 6A.  

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In 4B, the villains were pure camp.  Though really, only Cruella was a success and she can claim many of the funnier moments in that arc. 

I actually really enjoy the pure camp. I hate how the Author, eggnapping, and Lily all bogged it down.

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Me too.  They *tried* to do camp with The Evil Queen in 6A and The Black Fairy in 6B and to me, that's an example of where the bad writing really shows through when there isn't a stand-out performance.

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Plus by the time of 6A - the EQ had been seen 8,500 times and their was nothing new or different with the split version - if anything she was a pale copy of season 1.  The only time she really seemed dangerous is the episode she cursed Snow and Charming.  The Black Fairy, while a different character, in a lot of ways just came off as another variation of the EQ - another beautiful witch in black showing off her cleavage.  While I think the actress was decent, her giggling interpretation was not backed up by any substantive writing that made her a memorable character.  

Cruella worked as good camp, because she was different enough from the other female villains to be interesting and most importantly a great performance by the actress that made her compelling.  It is too bad she was not given a chance to do more.  Season 4B really did have too many characters jammed into it where there were a lot of hastily told stories and too much time on the least interesting character - Lily.  Season 5A had similar issues -- Dark Swan - Camelot - Arthur/Gwen/Lancelot - Merlin - Nimuae - so many stories that could have been interesting fleshed out but no time -- and instead of Lily taking up time - we had Meridia.

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That's a really good point about Cruella being more effective because she was different.  The Lady Tremaine in "The Other Shoe" also had a different feel to her which made her seem more fresh as a villain.  

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Cruella really subverted our expectations by being relentlessly evil. She didn't have a sob story, nor a shred of redeemability. Usually villains who are evil for the sake of being evil are superficial and painfully unrealistic. However, Cruella was mentally ill and was the classic version of a psychopath. It's something that happens in real life, which makes her disposition less cartoony. It also helps that she doesn't really have a cause. She's only out for herself and whatever suits her in a given moment. That's why her dark-grayness in 5B was so enjoyable. She can stand around and throw jabs at people, and her snark can be funny because the other characters aren't forced to like her.

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30 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Plus by the time of 6A - the EQ had been seen 8,500 times and their was nothing new or different with the split version - if anything she was a pale copy of season 1.

I think that's the real problem, that we didn't really see any impact of the split. Regina herself wasn't any different at all without her dark/evil half, and instead of being an even more intense evil without her more human side, the Evil Queen was just a weak version of season one. They didn't even really go anywhere with the idea that it was Regina's "good" side -- her heart and emotions -- that made the Evil Queen so evil because it was her passion that made her evil. It was mostly just two different Reginas in different costumes, with one a bit campier than the other. There was some real potential in that split, but they didn't go anywhere near it.

I'm currently bogged down in 2B. I may just have to give myself permission to skip to the last couple of episodes or start making liberal use of the FF button. It's just so very frustrating. I don't feel like the show has any real moral perspective. They're so all over the map with what's supposed to be good and evil. Evil is evil until good takes out evil, but then that's bad and evil is the victim, except evil keeps being evil and doing even more evil things, but that's okay because good did something bad, and magic is terrible and bad, unless it's not, and oh, never mind. Ugh.

Snow talks in the season finale about how they could have found a better way of dealing with Cora, and they do come up with one -- use Cora's heart to control her and keep her from trying to become the Dark One. Except that would have allowed Rumple to die, which they acted like would have been a terrible thing (and it would have prevented so many problems). Emma even threatened to let that happen, and Rumple called her bluff, talking about how they would explain that to poor Henry, losing his beloved grandpa. Well, you know, they could have explained it by "your beloved grandpa was a murderer and a cruel sadist who finally got what was coming to him from one of his victims." I guess Snow's real evil was that she conned Regina into returning the heart, knowing that would kill Cora. If Regina had been an innocent who happened to have an evil mother, I guess I'd be angry about that and feel like Snow had done something wrong, but under the actual circumstances, I just can't get worked up about it. It's the one truly mean thing Snow ever did to Regina, and after all the terrible things Regina had done, and the fact that Regina was willing to stand by and help her mother become the Dark One, Regina had it coming. I'm not sure I can rewatch the dark spot on the heart arc without wanting to throw something through my TV. I've been putting off watching the next episode for about a week, instead watching WWII documentaries while I do my physical therapy exercises.

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9 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I guess Snow's real evil was that she conned Regina into returning the heart, knowing that would kill Cora. If Regina had been an innocent who happened to have an evil mother, I guess I'd be angry about that and feel like Snow had done something wrong, but under the actual circumstances, I just can't get worked up about it. It's the one truly mean thing Snow ever did to Regina, and after all the terrible things Regina had done, and the fact that Regina was willing to stand by and help her mother become the Dark One, Regina had it coming. I'm not sure I can rewatch the dark spot on the heart arc without wanting to throw something through my TV.

I know we've discussed this before, but I don't consider it mean at all.  She was cornered and it was literally the ONLY thing Snow could have done to defeat Cora where there was even the slightest chance of success.  Cora becoming The Dark One was set up as if it were a huge deal.  It was pretty much equivalent to writing everyone's death sentence.  Of course, we didn't know at that point being The Dark One was basically throwing a bunch of white powder on your face and then acting exactly the same.

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It was hard to feel sorry for Regina when she looked so gleeful watching her Mother throw the nanny out the window.  With the long term plans of redeeming or or have as a gray character, I am  not sure why they did not show some signs of Regina being troubled by her Mother's behavior.  Herr callous, sadistic reaction to the murder of a harmless older lady was one of the main reasons why it took awhile for me to buy her angst.

I will give them credit for using season 3A for quickly dropping some of 2B's mistakes -- including Tamara and her colleagues whose name escapes me and Snow's guilt over Cora's death and black heart.  They also did a better job of integrating Regina into the group, but it was hard to just forget how she was in 2B.

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We were supposed to have forgotten Johanna by then.  We were supposed to be deeply moved as Cora finally realized that loving Regina would have been enough and Regina finally got the motherly loved she had yearned for all her life.  Let's forget that none of this would have happened if Cora hadn't wanted to become the most powerful person in the universe and destroy everyone.

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Let's not forget the whole Cora realizes that she could love Regina thing was only supposed to come about because her heart had been returned and thus, she could feel again. Which was fine, but then it turns out that having your heart removed doesn't actually remove your feelings of love, so they tore out the emotional resonance of the moment by retconning the whole heart thing.  Even in the Underworld Cora was treated like all she needed to do was be more loving to her daughters and apologize for being mean to them and then she got to go to heaven - never mind the entire village of people she slaughtered and turned into zombies in 2A. Lots of evil people love their children/parents, but that doesn't redeem them after they go on killing sprees.

 

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I don't feel like the show has any real moral perspective. They're so all over the map with what's supposed to be good and evil.

Honestly, I think this is what ultimately sinks their storytelling over the entire show. If they stuck with one perspective, even if it's totally skewed, then the actions of the characters would have at least made sense and I could see why people acted in a way that's totally unbelievable. Unfortunately, the wild swings in what some characters would/wouldn't and could/couldn't do were so crazy that you can see thing strings being pulled to have the story end up where they wanted. It's not satisfying when nothing makes sense. If X is evil, then it's evil. It's not evil only when characters A, B & C do it, but understandable and okay when Characters D, E & F do it.

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26 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Let's not forget the whole Cora realizes that she could love Regina thing was only supposed to come about because her heart had been returned and thus, she could feel again. Which was fine, but then it turns out that having your heart removed doesn't actually remove your feelings of love, so they tore out the emotional resonance of the moment by retconning the whole heart thing. 

That definitely makes it onto the list of Most Damaging Retcons on this Show which ruins re-watches of previously seasons and/or completely destroys a character or reduces the impact of prior events.

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12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think that's the real problem, that we didn't really see any impact of the split. Regina herself wasn't any different at all without her dark/evil half, and instead of being an even more intense evil without her more human side, the Evil Queen was just a weak version of season one. They didn't even really go anywhere with the idea that it was Regina's "good" side -- her heart and emotions -- that made the Evil Queen so evil because it was her passion that made her evil. It was mostly just two different Reginas in different costumes, with one a bit campier than the other. There was some real potential in that split, but they didn't go anywhere near it.

I

 

I didn't have a problem with the split at first. I think that it was a very Regina-like solution (something easy..with "magic" being a cure all for problems). I didn't like Emma agreeing with it...even Snow, who comes from that goofy world you could explain away as supporting it, but earthy Emma should have called it as it was "That's nuts Regina!"   Besides that I was looking forward to an EQ unleashed, with no redeeming qualities or humaness. I still think that Regina and Snow both having easy ops to kill each other and not doing it, signaled an unhealthy dependence on each other, but the EQ would not have that, not any love for Henry, not any need for approval, not any grudging respect for Emma, and really not anything but HATE for Rumple. I would have had her kill someone like Belle or bring back the Red actress for the day...(the show is hamstrung by not being able to actually "harm" any of the Disney characters...so there is never any tension that something is going to harm anyone for good...unless its a red shirt...) and kill her. Instead of putting the Chamrings under a curse again, have her put Henry under the sleeping curse (win win for me) "Regina, THIS creature is the thing that kept me from coming out all these years...HE brought the Savior back, he betrayed us to get those idiots love, he deserves this!!!"  With Regina's evil side gone she should have been battered with remorse over all the people she killed..etc. I would have made her suicidal and have the EQ goading her on..and they could have pulled a scene where Snow givers her boring hope speech where it made sense. They also should have only allowed the EQ to have magic, as it has been indicated that Regina's magic came from her anger.  As it was we just had two Regina's running around..almost the same...boring.

 

It could have also easily led to the Black Fairy, as someone else imagined should have been the evil half of Blue

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It's interesting how differently A&E thinks, because their whole goal was to redeem and justify even the "evil" part of Regina/Evil Queen, by having her realize that she's the whole package.  

Looking at Season 6 as a whole, the character with the most significant character journey was not Emma (despite the "You will die" arc that started in the premiere), nor Rumple (despite the New Son, New Me? central conflict), nor Original Recipe Regina even (who did not develop any further this season).  

The main character journey in Season 6 was for The Evil Queen, who realized she was still capable of love (Henry)... she also eventually showed remorse and grew to the point where she made the ultimate sacrifice to save everyone in the "series finale"... she also learned she still had the opportunity to experience true love (with Wish Robin), and finally, she DID get the happy ending with a wedding proposal.  This is despite ultimately causing the deaths of multiple people (Monte Cristo, Oracle), despite hurting Snowing again and giving an antidote that didn't even work - to which she didn't even apologize.

The fact that A&E KNEW this was the final season for at least two core characters from the beginning (Snowing), and they knew by the halfway point another core character was leaving (Emma), and they also decided that this would be the end for several other characters (Belle, Zelena, Henry, the entire supporting cast of Storybrooke) and they STILL made the season all about redeeming The Evil Queen, is totally insulting and galling.

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6 hours ago, Mitch said:

Besides that I was looking forward to an EQ unleashed, with no redeeming qualities or humaness

I remember they actually promoted it like this before the season started. I definitely remember Lana giving interviews where she said the EQ was the most evil version of Regina with no humanity and no love. But what we got was Regina who was almost exactly the same but in a dress and she oddly did a little dance a couple of times and she even 'loved' Henry!

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It's interesting how differently A&E thinks, because their whole goal was to redeem and justify even the "evil" part of Regina/Evil Queen, by having her realize that she's the whole package.

She was Regina's "evil" counterpart as much as Dark Swan was Emma's. The only difference between Regina and EQ was a willingness to act out her emotions, regardless of the moral implications. EQ's intentions were not far off from Regina's at all. They were just played out and made obvious. Was she really that terrifying? She killed a random oracle, cursed the Charmings, and attempted to kill Zelena. That's a far cry from murdering villages, tyrannizing a kingdom, and destroying entire realms. Menace? Yes. Evil Queen? Psh, no.

Off-topic, but why was Pan okay with Tiger Lily and Tinkerbell hanging out on Neverland? Wouldn't he have a grudge against fairies for taking his wife away?

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 despite hurting Snowing again and giving an antidote that didn't even work - to which she didn't even apologize.

She did apologize about cursing Snowing, though. She didn't give an antidote. Just all the information she had on the curse.

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The fact that A&E KNEW this was the final season for at least two core characters from the beginning (Snowing), and they knew by the halfway point another core character was leaving (Emma), and they also decided that this would be the end for several other characters (Belle, Zelena, Henry, the entire supporting cast of Storybrooke) and they STILL made the season all about redeeming The Evil Queen, is totally insulting and galling.

Zelena's arc in S5 was so much better, to be honest.

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22 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

She did apologize about cursing Snowing, though. She didn't give an antidote. Just all the information she had on the curse.

Yes, she apologized before she got whisked to the Wish Realm.  But her information on the curse excluded the fact that she "baked a fail-safe into the Curse", which would cause BOTH Snowing to fall asleep and never wake up again.   A "redeemed" person would not do that.  She never apologized for leaving that key bit of info out when they saw each other again in the finale.

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I had totally forgotten about the "Awake" flashbacks. I'm still bitter about them. It was one thing for Snow to give away her newborn child with black knights coming to kill her. She didn't know what the curse was going to do, and she didn't want her infant at Regina's mercy. Rumple's prophecy and the wardrobe were literally her only insurance plan. All that being said, the circumstances of Awake are vastly different. Snow and Charming actually had a choice that time. Their decision hinged on a blind faith in Rumple needed to preserve the plot. The writers were effectively saying, "This is our prophecy, therefore it must happen, regardless of what our characters would actually do". It was totally crapping on Snow's motherly instincts that supposedly existed. I'm not sure how you can go from wailing from having your newborn ripped from your arms to shrugging and taking the least risky way out. We only knew Rumple was right because we saw what happened later. There were so many vague factors at play that the parental instinct to go take care of Emma was really all you could count on.

Oh, and from a meta standpoint, it was a really dumb retcon and did nothing to help the plot. I guess it was to show Snow and Charming putting their kingdom first, but we all knew that was a farce. The same rulers unleashed Regina on them while only protecting themselves.

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It would have completely ruined Snowing as characters if they hadn't already been reduced to cardboard cutouts by then. In interviews, Ginny made it clear that she couldn't understand Snow's decision. She was very wooden in the scene as well. At least Charming seemed devastated about having to abandon wee!Emma, but in the end, he went along with Snow's unbelievably dumb decision, as always.

The solution would've been for one of them to go through the door, and for the other to stay behind as Regina's "hostage". There was a chance that Regina would murder the one left behind, but it was a risk they should've been willing to take for the sake of their daughter's well-being. Under the circs, Snow staying back would've been better leverage, but then, Charming had no cursed memories of the modern world. 

How convenient that they did not catch a glimpse of wee!Emma when she was burning books to stay warm. But would that have made a difference?

What should've been donne was that Snowing were about to go to Emma, but Regina stops them before the door closes. It wouldn't have made any difference to Snow sucking up to Regina later, but at least it wouldn't have made Snowing out to be such heartless  parents.

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I was perfectly fine with their decision, but what I'm wondering is why no one has thought of the implications of Snowing getting Emma would have been. Yes, it would have meant Emma didn't grow up alone, but it also would have meant that Emma's severe abandonment issues and mistrust of people would have been greatly reduced. This would mean that all the character development she went through would have been for nothing since the root cause of her issues (growing up alone) would have been fixed at an early age. Snowing choosing to shut the door was painful, but I was glad that was their decision because in my opinion, erasing character development is far, far worse. 

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28 minutes ago, oncebluethrone said:

I was perfectly fine with their decision, but what I'm wondering is why no one has thought of the implications of Snowing getting Emma would have been. Yes, it would have meant Emma didn't grow up alone, but it also would have meant that Emma's severe abandonment issues and mistrust of people would have been greatly reduced. This would mean that all the character development she went through would have been for nothing since the root cause of her issues (growing up alone) would have been fixed at an early age. Snowing choosing to shut the door was painful, but I was glad that was their decision because in my opinion, erasing character development is far, far worse. 

I don't get this viewpoint. This wasn't an alternate reality or timeline. It was something that happened in the Show's actual timeline. Snowing had a chance to go to Emma, but decided not to take it for reasons that felt more "heroic" and important in that moment. If Snowing had made the decision to not let Emma grow up alone as originally intended, we would have had a different Emma from the beginning. An Emma who was loved and supported. That's not erasing character development becasue that's what would have happened all along. 

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36 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't get this viewpoint. This wasn't an alternate reality or timeline. It was something that happened in the Show's actual timeline. Snowing had a chance to go to Emma, but decided not to take it for reasons that felt more "heroic" and important in that moment. If Snowing had made the decision to not let Emma grow up alone as originally intended, we would have had a different Emma from the beginning. An Emma who was loved and supported. That's not erasing character development becasue that's what would have happened all along. 

I didn't mean erasing character development in the sense that the canon of the show would disappear, but that it would have (for me) meant less since Emma's abandonment issues wouldn't have been as severe in the first place. I would have loved it if Emma didn't grow up alone, but the fact that she did is a fundamental part of her character. If this scene had taken place at an earlier point in the show (Season 1 for instance), I might feel differently.  

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3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

What should've been done was that Snowing were about to go to Emma, but Regina stops them before the door closes. It wouldn't have made any difference to Snow sucking up to Regina later, but at least it wouldn't have made Snowing out to be such heartless  parents.

That would have been the obvious solution, but these Writers think they write "complex" stories by giving characters "choice".  Too bad the characters don't make choices based on who they are, but based on contrived plot requirements, leading to wildly inconsistent actions.  Another consequence of the "Awake" retcon, as written, is A&E can say that Regina didn't fully cause Emma to grow up alone, since things could have been different - it was Snowing's fault.

It's a continuation of the vague conditions of what was required for Emma to break the Curse.  In 2B, they made it seem like Emma could not have become the Savior if she had been happy with Neal.  Was that actually the case?  Was it solely what August thought?  Was it what The Apprentice suggested to August?  That already broke what they wrote in Season 1, when Snow was supposed to have gone to the Real World with Emma.  In that situation, she would have grown up without Walls and yet she would break the Curse.  Once again, they wrote a situation which they thought was so heartbreaking, but it basically made Neal look really bad.  

The thing is - A&E cannot see this.  They have no ability to look at a story point and analyze the various ways in which the audience might interpret it.  When challenged, they just double down and either crack a dismissive "who cares" joke or repeat the same assertions over and over again.

The Writers write whatever's convenient for the plot, regardless of character "development", with the convenient "You'll remember nothing after this!" which happened multiple times in the final season.

We talked about this briefly in the episode thread, but it would have been so much more poignant if the flower allowed Snow and Charming to spend a single day with Emma, knowing or not knowing that they would be whisked away afterwards.  The flashbacks in Storybrooke were retread of stuff we'd seen before anyway.

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Adam clarified a lot today, everyone.

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Adam Horowitz‏  @AdamHorowitzLA  20 minutes ago

[Robin] wasn't obliterated. that's what hades said. But regina discovered the feather, which gave her faith to believe hades was wrong

@saraayyee  10 minutes ago

if she had faith his soul wasn't obliterated, why didn't she try find him like the cs arc in s5? they're soulmates after all..

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA

Replying to @saraayyee @stacy_e_k and 2 others  Because she believed he moved on, not that he was trapped in the underworld.

 

Yeah, she "believed".  No need to make sure, all.

I find it interesting they went way overboard to explain why Regina can't go back to the Underworld to get Robin by saying his soul was obliterated at the end of 5B.  But at the beginning of 6A, they gave a half-assed "correction".  Why not bring Robin back for one episode in a dream telling Regina he had moved on?  I'm not sure why the actor agreed to come back for that arc which did not provide any closure whatsoever for the original Robin character.

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On 8/24/2017 at 8:40 AM, Mitch said:

Besides that I was looking forward to an EQ unleashed, with no redeeming qualities or humaness.

Even Star Trek, back in the 60s, made sure that "Evil Kirk" and "Good Kirk" were distinct, not just from each other, but from "Balanced Kirk".

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The other idiotic thing about The Evil Queen in 6A is she targeted each person at a time with zero follow-through when she failed.  Why wait to put Snowing into the Sleeping Curse?  What happened to turning Regina dark after she killed the Count of Monte Cristo?  Why wait so long to let the cat out of the bag about what Hook did to David's father?  Why not send someone to the Mirror Realm sooner?

I must have missed something but why didn't The Black Fairy do anything in the last five seasons to escape?  What was special about Gideon again?  

And as Shanna Marie have said before, why would there be a Final Battle if the Savior was supposed to die to let the Black Fairy out of her "prison"? (in "Mother's Little Helper", Black Fairy tells Gideon "You will find The Savior.  And when you do, you will kill her.  And then, when The Savior dies, the sword will do what it must.  Free me from this prison".  And then in "When Bluebirds Fly", the Black Fairy tells Zelena in the cave of weaponized crystals - "What I came here for - to start the final battle.").  

I still don't buy that the Black Fairy would have been able to tackle The Blue Fairy to steal the baby.  Stealing a baby from random peasants, fine, but The Blue Fairy?  Okay, okay, she's pretty useless so maybe.  Why would Blue banish The Black Fairy to a place where she still can use her black magic?  And how could The Black Fairy's wand be the most powerful there is, when it's basically just a re-purposed fairy wand?  Why was The Black Fairy still so powerful without it?  

Interesting that The Black Fairy wand was needed to unravel part of her ex-husband's plan at the end of 3A.  Did The Black Fairy ever visit Peter Pan in Neverland?  They both became fond of kidnapping other people's kids.  Ditto for their beloved son.  Why didn't she ever visit Rumple when he was growing up?  It's clear she could leave the Dark Realm whenever she wanted.

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I'm just starting my season 6 rewatch and I'm getting ragey again. Sigh. Emma flat out lies to Killian about the shaky hands, that still bothers me. Just say, yes it's something and I'll tell you, just give me a bit of time instead of promising it's nothing.

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10 hours ago, Camera One said:

That would have been the obvious solution, but these Writers think they write "complex" stories by giving characters "choice".  Too bad the characters don't make choices based on who they are, but based on contrived plot requirements, leading to wildly inconsistent actions.  Another consequence of the "Awake" retcon, as written, is A&E can say that Regina didn't fully cause Emma to grow up alone, since things could have been different - it was Snowing's fault.

It's a continuation of the vague conditions of what was required for Emma to break the Curse.  In 2B, they made it seem like Emma could not have become the Savior if she had been happy with Neal.  Was that actually the case?  Was it solely what August thought?  Was it what The Apprentice suggested to August?  That already broke what they wrote in Season 1, when Snow was supposed to have gone to the Real World with Emma.  In that situation, she would have grown up without Walls and yet she would break the Curse.  Once again, they wrote a situation which they thought was so heartbreaking, but it basically made Neal look really bad.  

The thing is - A&E cannot see this.  They have no ability to look at a story point and analyze the various ways in which the audience might interpret it.  When challenged, they just double down and either crack a dismissive "who cares" joke or repeat the same assertions over and over again.

The Writers write whatever's convenient for the plot, regardless of character "development", with the convenient "You'll remember nothing after this!" which happened multiple times in the final season.

We talked about this briefly in the episode thread, but it would have been so much more poignant if the flower allowed Snow and Charming to spend a single day with Emma, knowing or not knowing that they would be whisked away afterwards.  The flashbacks in Storybrooke were retread of stuff we'd seen before anyway.

They could have easily had done that especially considering Regina threatened to kill someone earlier in the episode. Her "test" to see if Snow was still Mary Margaret. It would make sense for Regina to show up and ruin their chance to escape. Or that the Dark Curse should have had something written into similar to if Emma died the Curse would be broken but for Snow. There's no way Regina wouldn't have made sure her main target didn't disappear. So why not have Rumple say something about if Snow leaves the town blows up or something. Or Regina as Snowing is about to leave that the town will be ashes if they leave.

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That episode had a lot of what is most frustrating about this show.  First of all, the viewer went into it, knowing that Snowing would fail.  Why would you want to watch something where the people you are rooting for are bound to be unsuccessful?  Regina was hardly "tricked".  Secondly, the go-to person for help was, of course, Rumple.  As usual, there is a need to shoe-horn him into everything, and there can't be an intelligent sage in town.  They should have gone to Blue and she could have given them a little victory of some sort, surely.  Maybe they could have planted something which could have helped them to break the current-day Sleeping Curse, instead of the idiotic Everyone drink poison resolution.  Thirdly, they did a retcon which reflected badly on these particular characters - again.  It surprises me how they can always hit a new low. Finally, they once again approach dealing with Snowing and the loss of Emma and then showed us they actually couldn't care less.  The idiotic developments in this episode might have been salvagable if we had finally gotten a scene longer than a minute with Emma and Snow, and Emma and David.  But sorry, it's the final season with them, but no can do.  

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1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The other idiotic thing about The Evil Queen in 6A is she targeted each person at a time with zero follow-through when she failed.  Why wait to put Snowing into the Sleeping Curse?  What happened to turning Regina dark after she killed the Count of Monte Cristo?  Why wait so long to let the cat out of the bag about what Hook did to David's father?  Why not send someone to the Mirror Realm sooner?

I must have missed something but why didn't The Black Fairy do anything in the last five seasons to escape?  What was special about Gideon again?  

And as Shanna Marie have said before, why would there be a Final Battle if the Savior was supposed to die to let the Black Fairy out of her "prison"? (in "Mother's Little Helper", Black Fairy tells Gideon "You will find The Savior.  And when you do, you will kill her.  And then, when The Savior dies, the sword will do what it must.  Free me from this prison".  And then in "When Bluebirds Fly", the Black Fairy tells Zelena in the cave of weaponized crystals - "What I came here for - to start the final battle.").  

I still don't buy that the Black Fairy would have been able to tackle The Blue Fairy to steal the baby.  Stealing a baby from random peasants, fine, but The Blue Fairy?  Okay, okay, she's pretty useless so maybe.  Why would Blue banish The Black Fairy to a place where she still can use her black magic?  And how could The Black Fairy's wand be the most powerful there is, when it's basically just a re-purposed fairy wand?  Why was The Black Fairy still so powerful without it?  

Interesting that The Black Fairy wand was needed to unravel part of her ex-husband's plan at the end of 3A.  Did The Black Fairy ever visit Peter Pan in Neverland?  They both became fond of kidnapping other people's kids.  Ditto for their beloved son.  Why didn't she ever visit Rumple when he was growing up?  It's clear she could leave the Dark Realm whenever she wanted.

It was idiotic. At least do something. How much more exciting would it have been if instead of the shakes or what ever that Emma had, that the Evil Queen came back and targeted Emma first? Make that their way of realizing the Evil Queen is there? Or at least build up a mystery. Of Emma being attacked and Belle. It could have been fun to see her try and forced Regina to go dark. In the end nothing the Evil Queen did made any sense but she did get a new life and new boyfriend. So how nice for her. 

The Black Fairy makes zero sense for almost the same reason. Nothing she did made any sense and she also wasn't that 'evil'. She could have snatched Rumple any time after he was returned to Malcolm. He probably wouldn't even had notice if his kid disappear. Or cheered. She had his entire life to find him and didn't bother. Malcolm made zero sense either. He hated his kid but ends up kidnapping kids? I know he was looking for Henry, but there should have been another reason as to why he was keeping so many kids there. Centuries passed before Henry was born. Did he really want to put up with kids for that long? Why not make the Black Fairy and Pan evil from the start? That would have made more sense then the Malcolm doesn't want to grow up so he abandons his son then ends up with a whole bunch of others sons? Why not have Pan and Rumple batting for centuries? They were all alive for so long. Give us feuds and battles against them. Rumple never wants to give up power and likes to be the worse. Pan probably does too. It would make sense they would clash. That would have made more sense. Especially when Pan tries to take Bae with him. That would have made for a better get back at Rumple then anything else or to use as leverage against Rumple. 

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That episode had a lot of what is most frustrating about this show.  First of all, the viewer went into it, knowing that Snowing would fail.  Why would you want to watch something where the people you are rooting for are bound to be unsuccessful?  Regina was hardly "tricked".  Secondly, the go-to person for help was, of course, Rumple.  As usual, there is a need to shoe-horn him into everything, and there can't be an intelligent sage in town.  They should have gone to Blue and she could have given them a little victory of some sort, surely.  Maybe they could have planted something which could have helped them to break the current-day Sleeping Curse, instead of the idiotic Everyone drink poison resolution.  Thirdly, they did a retcon which reflected badly on these particular characters - again.  It surprises me how they can always hit a new low. Finally, they once again approach dealing with Snowing and the loss of Emma and then showed us they actually couldn't care less.  The idiotic developments in this episode might have been salvagable if we had finally gotten a scene longer than a minute with Emma and Snow, and Emma and David.  But sorry, it's the final season with them, but no can do.  

I just realized. Would it make more sense if Regina followed Snowing to Emma? Emma's the one person who can break her curse. If Snowing are leaving town there can only be one reason to find their daughter. So why not follow them so she can take care off Emma? Or have Snowing realize that's exactly what would happen before they left? Or maybe that happens. They leave and Regina finds them, they now need Rumple's help and have to mind whip Emma (including taking away memories of their day together) and themselves. Rumple helps because he still wants Emma to break the Curse so he can find his son?

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Youtube kindly recommended a Merida-Mulan clip for me to watch, which got me thinking.  The final season should have been a battle with all the Princesses, each with individual strengths and powers, versus all the Villains.  I know it's hard to get all the actors and actresses back, but heck, isn't that the main draw of this show, a huge larger-than-life mash-up?  Granted, the Ariel-Jasmine-Hook adventure turned out to be lamer than hoped, so A&E could still mess it up.  

The fact that A&E insisted on dragging this show out instead of planning a big extravaganza as the final season really ruined things.  Not that I have much confidence in their ability to plan a final season, after learning that they knew certain actors were leaving and they didn't make full use of them.  I really over-estimated them and thought they had one more trick up their sleeve for the final season like the "Lost" flashsideways. Instead, they cared more about rebooting their show with only their favorites returning.

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5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Why would you want to watch something where the people you are rooting for are bound to be unsuccessful? 

I give you Sunset Boulevard. You know from the outset that William Holden is going to die., How he got there is fascinating.  Or Momento, where half the film is told backwards.  The Usual Suspects starts with all the leads but one dead.  It can be done but takes empathy and creativity, neither of which A&E have.

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5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Instead, they cared more about rebooting their show with only their favorites returning.

Yup. The followed their usual practice of completely sidelining characters they were writing off the Show. Hence, Snowing, Emma, Belle, and Zelena got barely anything in the second half, and went the way of Bagel and Robin. 

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On 8/23/2017 at 10:09 PM, Camera One said:

I know we've discussed this before, but I don't consider it mean at all.  She was cornered and it was literally the ONLY thing Snow could have done to defeat Cora where there was even the slightest chance of success.

What I meant was the way she did it, the fact that she conned Regina into thinking she'd be winning her mother back when actually she'd be killing her. If Regina had been an innocent, just another one of Cora's victims who hadn't ever done anything, that would have been horrible. As it was, Regina was so complicit in Cora's crimes, had committed so many of her own crimes, had done so much harm to Snow, and was going along with Cora making herself the Dark One, that I had no qualms whatsoever about it. She got her just desserts. But there were other solutions. Snow could have crushed the heart and killed Cora that way rather than conning Regina into returning the heart or used the heart to keep Cora from becoming the Dark One until Rumple was dead and the Dark One chance was gone. That would have resulted in Rumple's death, so basically a win-win, but the show treated it like Rumple's death would have been a terrible tragedy because they'd just discovered he was Henry's grandfather. Emma suggested just letting him die, and he guilted her out of it by asking what she'd tell Henry. Well, you know, there was always, "He murdered your grandmother, and he finally had to face justice for that."

On 8/25/2017 at 9:28 AM, Rumsy4 said:

What should've been donne was that Snowing were about to go to Emma, but Regina stops them before the door closes. It wouldn't have made any difference to Snow sucking up to Regina later, but at least it wouldn't have made Snowing out to be such heartless  parents.

Really, they should have skipped it entirely. I think that was a worse retcon than even the eggnapping and evilectomy. That one may have been wildly out of character and too big to have never come up between them before then, given the events we saw them go through, but it only really affected the Charmings. It didn't change the way their world works. There were no other situations in which an eggnapping or fetal evilectomy should have come up. But that stupid flower thing was so bizarre. A magic flower that grows in the presence of great evil popped up during a moment in which Regina was being mildly bitchy -- during a time when there was no magic in Storybrooke. Where have these flowers been since then, like when Regina was arranging the murder of someone she considered a friend in order to frame an innocent for murder, or when Hook was so hell-bent on revenge that he shot Belle to hurt Rumple, or when Cora and Regina were scheming to use the Dark One to murder everyone and get Henry for themselves, or when Regina was planning to use the failsafe to kill everyone in town, or when Greg and Tamara were planning to use the failsafe to kill everyone in town, or when Pan was in town, or when Zelena was planning to steal a newborn in order to go back in time and keep her sister from being born (I guess the flowers grow in the presence of evil, not wicked), or when Rumple was trying to suck all the magical people into the hat so he could crush Hook's heart and gain ultimate power while letting everyone else in town die, or during Shattered Sight when everyone's dark sides came out, or when Cruella was in town, or when there was an entire army of Dark Ones in town, or when the Evil Queen without any of Regina's good parts was in town? There should have been whole forests of those flowers by now, since a great villain comes to town with an epic evil scheme every other month. So it was a pointless, character-destroying flashback in service of a one-time-use-only plot device.

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

It's a continuation of the vague conditions of what was required for Emma to break the Curse.  In 2B, they made it seem like Emma could not have become the Savior if she had been happy with Neal.  Was that actually the case?  Was it solely what August thought?  Was it what The Apprentice suggested to August?

Back in season 2, it may have only been my headcanon, but the impression I got was that it wasn't about Emma being happy with Neal, but rather that Neal would have been a bad influence on her, in part because he was leading her down what August would have recognized (from personal experience) as a wrong path that might have kept her from being hero enough to be a Savior, but in part because Neal, being who he was, might have actively worked against any courses of fate that might have drawn Emma to Storybrooke and to breaking the curse. He didn't want to be reunited with his father, didn't want the curse to break so his father would be free, so if Neal ever figured out who Emma was, he would have tried to stop her. Neal jumped on the excuse to do a "scared straight" kind of thing to forcibly separate Emma from him -- if he'd just tried to break up with her, she might have resisted; if he was the one who went to prison, she'd have stood by him. This was the only way for him to make a clean break from her and never see her again. It wasn't so much about allowing her to break the curse as it was about him not wanting to be there when she did. And that would have made some sense. But they messed that up by going with the idea that Neal had no choice and was doing some kind of noble, sacrificial thing in letting Emma go to prison, and they ruined the scared straight idea by having her still being a fugitive two years before the series started, and somewhere along the way they came up with this weird idea that she had to suffer in order to be the Savior.

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50 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But there were other solutions. Snow could have crushed the heart and killed Cora that way rather than conning Regina into returning the heart or used the heart to keep Cora from becoming the Dark One until Rumple was dead and the Dark One chance was gone. That would have resulted in Rumple's death, so basically a win-win, but the show treated it like Rumple's death would have been a terrible tragedy because they'd just discovered he was Henry's grandfather. 

I don't think those would have been do-able in Snow's case.  She wouldn't have been able to open the box without Regina immediately poof-ing it away from her.  She would never have had the time to crush the heart, or even squeeze it to command Cora.  Didn't we learn later on that it's possible to enchant the heart so someone can't control you even if they got it?  I vaguely remember something like that.  Even if that were not the case, wouldn't Cora have put a blood spell to prevent the opening of the box, just like she did her wand box?  

Quote

But they messed that up by going with the idea that Neal had no choice and was doing some kind of noble, sacrificial thing in letting Emma go to prison, and they ruined the scared straight idea by having her still being a fugitive two years before the series started, and somewhere along the way they came up with this weird idea that she had to suffer in order to be the Savior.

What I was wondering about is what A&E's original intent was.  I don't think I can conclude that they "messed up by going with the idea" if that was their original intent all along.  If that was what they meant, where they messed up was with the flashback of what they portrayed in "Tallahassee".

I find it interesting that they brought August back twice for multiple recurring appearances, yet they never clarified his source of knowledge or his reasoning behind what he did in the past.  His character worked in Season 1 because his mysterious nature made sense given his motive of finding a cure.  But I really disliked him in 4B and in Season 6 because the Writers did not bother providing any reason why Emma would consider him to be a BFF, and keeping him nebulous made him an irritating jerk rather than an intriguing character.

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23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Didn't we learn later on that it's possible to enchant the heart so someone can't control you even if they got it?  I vaguely remember something like that.  Even if that were not the case, wouldn't Cora have put a blood spell to prevent the opening of the box, just like she did her wand box?  

Maybe, but they didn't bring that up until later. It may retroactively apply, but Snow didn't even try. But then I guess they didn't want Snow to try because the whole point of that arc was to make Snow the bad guy. It would have been harder to lay on the guilt trip and talk about her doing the wrong thing if she tried multiple things and failed before going to the last resort.

24 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What I was wondering about is what A&E's original intent was.  I don't think I can conclude that they "messed up by going with the idea" if that was their original intent all along.  If that was what they meant, where they messed up was with the flashback of what they portrayed in "Tallahassee".

I'm not entirely certain they actually had an original intent. Regardless, they did seem to change attitudes toward Neal in midstream, much the way Regina abruptly switched from villain to victim, with all the sympathy going to her. Neal in "Tallahassee" and even in "Manhattan" was shown to be kind of a loser whose biggest fear was facing his father and who was willing to do anything to run from that, even throwing Emma under the bus. Maybe he could have stayed with Emma and supported her in eventually breaking the curse, but both he and August knew he wasn't willing to do that and he would only hold her back, so he took the convenient coward's way out. And then in the next episode after "Manhattan," that started changing, with Emma looking like the bad guy for not telling Neal about Henry (never mind that she couldn't find him, since he deliberately vanished on her) and for not telling Henry about Neal (never mind that Henry would have probably hated his father when he met him if he already knew the true story). Then somewhere along the way the "I had no choice" thing came up, with Emma agreeing, and by the time of Neal's death, they'd turned him into a great hero who was loved by everyone (never mind that most of them barely interacted with him). What's so bizarre about Neal is that they gave him such a full whitewashing treatment that extended to three seasons after his death, in spite of writing him off the show. His crimes weren't as bad as Regina's, but he got the same kind of abrupt reversal from loser to hero loved by all. And yet they never actually developed him. It's like they simultaneously loved this character and didn't care enough to write him. I guess it's easier to have his portrait as a hero hanging in the background and to have everyone praising him than to develop his character and all his complex relationships or to show how he went from Bae to Neal.

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I was reading this old interview, and in hindsight....

Quote

EDDY KITSIS | We kind of started setting it up in Neverland; watching his father sacrifice his life had a profound effect on Neal. And what we really wanted to tell is: What happens when the kid who was always the moral compass loses his father [Rumplestiltskin], they make up and then he finds himself, like father like son, repeating that same obsessive quest to get back? 

So Baelfire was "always the moral compass"?  What about that little incident with Fake Beowulf in Season 6, eh?

Quote

so that his son [Henry] would see him as a hero the way that he eventually came to see his father.

Neal eventually saw Rumple as a hero?  Seriously?  

Quote

In response to why Neal was killed off:
HOROWITZ |  When you’re telling a serialized show, you reach a point where you see the avenue it’s leading you towards and what’s going to happen there. You then have a choice — you can try to resist it and do something that doesn’t feel organic, or you can be true to it, even if it’s painful.

Just like it was so organic to keep Rumple alive year after year and lying to Belle again and again?  And it was so organic to keep Regina alive and become BFFs with her former victims while in flashbacks, she massacred villages?

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TVLINE | Best case scenario, would you have liked to shoehorn in a final scene between Henry and his father?
KITSIS | Of course.
HOROWITZ | In the sense of for the character, yes, that would have been great. But for the storytelling, this is the way we wanted to do it. That’s the tragedy of it, and that’s something they’re all going to have to deal with. 

Except they didn't deal with it.  It wasn't great in terms of "storytelling" either because they never bothered to follow up on this decision.

Quote

KITSIS | We look at it as: In Emma, you have a character very similar to Regina. These are two characters with walls up, and the only one who got beneath them was Henry. So it’s about their pursuit of allowing love to come in again. They’re both very scarred by it and frightened of it, so for us it’s about watching Emma make a natural evolution to when she does decide to act upon it.

I can't believe I forgot this quote.  

It's kind of ridiculous to watch them wax poetic about the art of storytelling when they have major writing issues.

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3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was reading this old interview, and in hindsight....

So Baelfire was "always the moral compass"?  What about that little incident with Fake Beowulf in Season 6, eh?

Neal eventually saw Rumple as a hero?  Seriously?  

Just like it was so organic to keep Rumple alive year after year and lying to Belle again and again?  And it was so organic to keep Regina alive and become BFFs with her former victims while in flashbacks, she massacred villages?

Except they didn't deal with it.  It wasn't great in terms of "storytelling" either because they never bothered to follow up on this decision.

I can't believe I forgot this quote.  

It's kind of ridiculous to watch them wax poetic about the art of storytelling when they have major writing issues.

I hate the last quote the most. How is Emma like Regina? She never slaughtered villages or murdered anyone until Cruella. And she had gun pointed at her son's head. That was justified. Emma had a crappy childhood but that was because of Regina. Had she never cursed Snow, Emma never would have been sent away to grow up alone? That is such bull that they think Emma is like Regina. 

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I hate the last quote the most. How is Emma like Regina? She never slaughtered villages or murdered anyone until Cruella. And she had gun pointed at her son's head. That was justified. Emma had a crappy childhood but that was because of Regina. Had she never cursed Snow, Emma never would have been sent away to grow up alone? That is such bull that they think Emma is like Regina. 

A&E: "But, but... WALLS!!!"

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And then in the next episode after "Manhattan," that started changing, with Emma looking like the bad guy for not telling Neal about Henry (never mind that she couldn't find him, since he deliberately vanished on her) and for not telling Henry about Neal (never mind that Henry would have probably hated his father when he met him if he already knew the true story)

I've always resented the show for painting Emma as the bad guy for lying to Henry. It wasn't the best thing to do, but Emma's side of things was entirely invalidated, and she was put in the same boat as Rumple. And worse - she got compared to Regina. Excuse me, show? Lying about a man Henry will probably never meet and years of gaslighting are on two completely separate levels of bad.

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22 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I've always resented the show for painting Emma as the bad guy for lying to Henry. It wasn't the best thing to do, but Emma's side of things was entirely invalidated, and she was put in the same boat as Rumple. And worse - she got compared to Regina. Excuse me, show? Lying about a man Henry will probably never meet and years of gaslighting are on two completely separate levels of bad.

A&E don't understand that they can write whatever, but if the viewers don't believe in it, it makes the story a failure.  Henry was cool in Season 1, but in Season 2, he made multiple comparisons of pretty much everyone to Regina.  Especially in that episode where he was going to drop dynamite into the well.  Does A&E think because Henry equates Regina with Emma, Snow, etc., the audience will automatically believe it?  So what did Henry really think when he found out Cora threw Johanna off the clock tower with Regina looking on and doing absolutely nothing?  

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50 minutes ago, Camera One said:

So what did Henry really think when he found out Cora threw Johanna off the clock tower with Regina looking on and doing absolutely nothing?  

But Regina is chaaaaged. The book was so wrong about her. She's not a villian, but deserves a Happy Ending more than anyone else in all the Realms ever!!!

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