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S04.E01: Post Truth

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25 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

What woman who was born with female genitalia wouldn't be offended at the implication that her features are such that she was probably born with male genitalia?  I think you can have no issue with transgender people, but still be a woman who doesn't want people suggesting you were living as a man at some point.  I didn't understand why the show chose to go there.   

What woman who's trans wouldn't be hurt, or have negative feelings towards watching a scene where being compared to her and others like her is considered insulting or horrifying? I'm not a fan of any humor that makes marginalized people the butt of a joke. It's not funny, just mean. 

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What woman who's trans wouldn't be hurt, or have negative feelings towards watching a scene where being compared to her and others like her is considered insulting or horrifying?

That's kind of my point.  No woman wants to be told she looks like she was born with male genitalia.  I presume a transwoman would be similarly offended and react in the same way.

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9 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

What's wrong with Hemmingway?

Lol nothing, but most 40-something lit nerds I know would have very little interest in him. YMMV though, and mine is definitely tainted by not being American. (ETA: of course, Liza is written as exactly the kind of lit nerd that would be into Hemingway, so as far as literary references go, it probably does fit a lot better than lots of others.) 

I just find Charles so stuffy and boring, and for a guy who runs a publishing house, even a relatively traditional publishing house, he's very backwards-looking. In generational terms, he reads more baby boomer than GenX, which I'm assuming he's supposed to be. But again, YMMV. 

Edited by MissEwa
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I'm Gen X and find Charles a snore. I know Sutton was on Broadway which is supposedly the be-all-end-all of acting, but they would have done better casting a gen-x woman who can easily pass for 10 or 20 years younger. Someone on this forum mentioned Danica McKellar. She would have been perfect. I have no problem with Sutton, but don't find her the best fit for Liza. Heck, Winona Ryder doesn't age.

Please tell me this show is not trying to be political. I watch this sort of show to escape news. If I want that, I'll watch CNN or the networks. I hope the writers get the memo. When shows (unless it's the West Wing, et al.) get political, it comes off as pedantic. 

I really side eye the writers of this show. Gen Xers were the ones who did the tech boom. I used to work in software. We're very social media aware. Oh, yes, we also have Netflix and know what Black Mirror is. 

Edited by Atlanta
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I'm another GenXer who doesn't get the appeal of Charles. He's just so stodgy. I love Josh, though I don't see him and Liza as a long term couple since they are in very different places in their lives and sadly, women have a shelf life as far as child bearing goes, so if Josh wants kids down the road Liza is kind of not an option.

I love Sutton Foster, but I hate that they lightened her hair, presumably to make her seem younger, because it aged her. The second her hair was lightened she suddenly looked her age. It makes it a little hard to sympathize with Kelsey when I'm sitting there thinking "But LOOK at her!?!?! She's clearly not 20 something. DUH!" haha. No, I get her being hurt. I just hate that it looks like that hurt is going to make her hook up with Josh. That's just the laziest possible way to keep him on the show.

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I'm against the Kelsey/Josh hookup because I like the Kelsey and Liza friendship. If Kelsey and josh happen, that friendship won't be the same. At least to me. I know plenty lf shows try to make friends stay the same after dating the others significant others (I mean basis of a lot of shows in my viewing life) but the friendships always feel so forced after this story development. So it would make me mad.

We are given very rare female friendship shows that never have a guy somehow come between them. Guys in shows get these friendships but girls it seems never. In some way a guy comes between them and it makes me angry, so I hope it doesn't happen for that reason.

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3 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm against the Kelsey/Josh hookup because I like the Kelsey and Liza friendship. If Kelsey and josh happen, that friendship won't be the same. At least to me. I know plenty lf shows try to make friends stay the same after dating the others significant others (I mean basis of a lot of shows in my viewing life) but the friendships always feel so forced after this story development. So it would make me mad.

We are given very rare female friendship shows that never have a guy somehow come between them. Guys in shows get these friendships but girls it seems never. In some way a guy comes between them and it makes me angry, so I hope it doesn't happen for that reason.

I loved Liza's female friendships. Too many shows or movie pit the women against each other. 

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If they have to hook up (as it looks they will), I'd like for them to realize there's no there there; it was just comfort/revenge sex, and now that it's out of their systems, they go back to being platonic.

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On 7/1/2017 at 8:22 AM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

What woman who's trans wouldn't be hurt, or have negative feelings towards watching a scene where being compared to her and others like her is considered insulting or horrifying? I'm not a fan of any humor that makes marginalized people the butt of a joke. It's not funny, just mean. 

I'm sure they feel the same way fat people do when jokes are made about them, or skinny people who are told to eat a sandwich etc etc.  Everybody in every group has jokes or other things being said about them. I don't see why one group of people should be excluded. I also do not think that just because somebody is offended or makes a joke means they're "transphobic".  

I'm not phobic about anything (except deep water) but I would also be offended if somebody said I was transgender.  Doesn't make me transphobic.  

I'm sure I'm alone in this but I hope that Josh and Kelsey do get together.  Its a soapy drama and it doesn't get any soapier than that. I would love them to "hook up".   I'm almost positive that they won't though,  the previews want us to think they get together which means they won't.  Previews are always misleading. 

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 Liza has a daughter who is closer in age to Kelsey than Liza is!  If I were Kelsey, I would feel seriously betrayed here, and in reality, I doubt she would ever be friends with Liza again.  And it's not a matter of Liza having covered or lied for Kelsey in the past, so that somehow takes Kelsey off her high horse.  Liza's lie essentially says to Kelsey: "Even though I'm telling you now how much I love you, the reality is that I didn't trust you and was happy to put myself first when it mattered." 

Kelsey has to realize the situation was never about HER and all about Liza doing what she thought she had to do.  Yes, continuing to lie about her past was a sort of betrayal but telling her would have risked Liza's job. And Kelsey even said she wouldn't expose her only because of the magazine. Still think Kelsey hooking up with Josh would be more of a betrayal since she knows Liza still has feelings.

Josh had more of a reason (about the age situation) to feel betrayed and he eventually got over it.  Charles would have the most reason to feel betrayed (IF he found out) since he hired Liza under false pretenses.

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1 hour ago, Palomar said:

Kelsey has to realize the situation was never about HER and all about Liza doing what she thought she had to do.  Yes, continuing to lie about her past was a sort of betrayal but telling her would have risked Liza's job.

Yes, and telling Kelsey would have made Kelsey complicit in the lie.

The thing with this type of lie is, how do you know when the right time to tell someone is? When would it have been the time to tell Kelsey? When would have made Kelsey less angry? Liza had to wait at least long enough to know she could trust Kelsey, but at that point she is now far into the lie. It's too late to not hurt Kelsey. So is goes on, and on, until Liza realizes it's too late to tell her and have a reason why she didn't.

I feel like Liza went into this not expecting to get as close to people as she did and hadn't thought about when/how she would tell them if they became close to her. She was truly stuck.

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11 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I feel like Liza went into this not expecting to get as close to people as she did and hadn't thought about when/how she would tell them if they became close to her. She was truly stuck.

She didn't think the lie though on any level except to get a job. I know that's basically the premise of the show, but it would have been nice if she'd done some anticipating. She's always been surprised when someone knows she's not 26, like when she ran into Martha Plimpton. The dumb thing was that didn't wake up her to have some sort of contingency plan.

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1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

She didn't think the lie though on any level except to get a job.

So very true. I kind of get it, she probably didn't think it would come up. I mean, half the people I work with have no clue how old I am. It usually only comes up as a way to shock people. I'm 45. I hang out with a group of 38-30 year olds and they all thought I was their age. Of course I never got married or had a kid so I can pull off 28 way better than Liza haha. I do look, and act, quite young for my age. It's part of what drew me to the show. Sutton being the other part.

But yeah, she never really did think beyond just getting the job. She kind of got caught up in the excitement of it and now reality has given her a cold hard punch in the gut.

I get it is realistic for Kelsey to be hurt and pull away, but since the Kelsey/Liza friendship is one of my favorite things about the show, I hope it passes quickly, no matter how unrealistic that might be.

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16 hours ago, Palomar said:

Kelsey has to realize the situation was never about HER and all about Liza doing what she thought she had to do.  Yes, continuing to lie about her past was a sort of betrayal but telling her would have risked Liza's job. And Kelsey even said she wouldn't expose her only because of the magazine. Still think Kelsey hooking up with Josh would be more of a betrayal since she knows Liza still has feelings.

Josh had more of a reason (about the age situation) to feel betrayed and he eventually got over it.  Charles would have the most reason to feel betrayed (IF he found out) since he hired Liza under false pretenses.

My daughter and I have a theory that Charles already knows how old Liza is. We think that once he started becoming interested in her, he had her checked out pretty thoroughly.  Wow, I had some other points to make but I've completely lost my train of thought. 

We text each other during our favorite shows and come up with all kinds of crazy theories. 

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32 minutes ago, Maharincess said:

My daughter and I have a theory that Charles already knows how old Liza is. We think that once he started becoming interested in her, he had her checked out pretty thoroughly.  Wow, I had some other points to make but I've completely lost my train of thought. 

We text each other during our favorite shows and come up with all kinds of crazy theories. 

Lol I actually subscribe to the same theory too! It might be far fetched but it would certainly be a twist. 

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If Charles knows, why wouldn't he privately tell Liza he knows? He doesn't seem like the type of man who would let the shit hit the fan and then say, "Yeah, I knew all along." If nothing else, knowing she's not 26 should be a giant relief to him. He'd still be wrong to date her when she's working for him, but at least she's not some wet-behind-the-ears child.

I actually like the idea of Charles knowing, but it's very problematic.

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6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

If Charles knows, why wouldn't he privately tell Liza he knows? He doesn't seem like the type of man who would let the shit hit the fan and then say, "Yeah, I knew all along." If nothing else, knowing she's not 26 should be a giant relief to him. He'd still be wrong to date her when she's working for him, but at least she's not some wet-behind-the-ears child.

I actually like the idea of Charles knowing, but it's very problematic.

That's why I think he already knows.  I don't think he would go for a 26 year old. I too think it would be/is a relief to him that she isn't really 26.  And why is she still "26" after 3 years?! 

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6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I actually like the idea of Charles knowing, but it's very problematic.

I would actually like that, I think, although the idea that he had her investigated when he became interested in her squicks me out. I'd be more okay with it if it was just part of the routine Empirical background check, but then it would be weird that he'd just let it go for so long - and also that he'd let her squirm over it for three seasons... so still problematic, really. 

19 minutes ago, Maharincess said:

That's why I think he already knows.  I don't think he would go for a 26 year old. I too think it would be/is a relief to him that she isn't really 26.  And why is she still "26" after 3 years?! 

She's also still 40. Although it was nearly her birthday when she ended up in hospital halfway through last season. This is one of those things that's bothered me intermittently since the second season, although I guess maybe it's not been a year in show time?

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2 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

I would actually like that, I think, although the idea that he had her investigated when he became interested in her squicks me out.

If Charles knows, he could have found out without having Liza "investigated." As we've seen with Thad and that book lady, it doesn't take much digging to unravel Liza's lies. It's not that intricate of a web. A little extra Googling and that'll do it. 

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36 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

If Charles knows, he could have found out without having Liza "investigated." As we've seen with Thad and that book lady, it doesn't take much digging to unravel Liza's lies. It's not that intricate of a web. A little extra Googling and that'll do it. 

True. Still don't love that he would have left her hanging about it for this long, when, if you watch her and you know, it is clearly something that she really struggles with. It would kind of explain the bemused expression he often has during their interactions  - like he's thinking 'geez... who does she think she's fooling here?' - although it would explain it better if he wasn't supposed to be super into her. 

(All of my Charles opinions come with a very strong #teamJosh bias. It would take a lot for him to win me over.)

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48 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

If Charles knows, he could have found out without having Liza "investigated." As we've seen with Thad and that book lady, it doesn't take much digging to unravel Liza's lies. It's not that intricate of a web. A little extra Googling and that'll do it. 

He EASILY could have seen her birthdate on her bracelet in "What's Up Dock?" 

 

But I agree that it seems weird that he hasn't said anything to her.

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1 hour ago, Maharincess said:

That's why I think he already knows.  I don't think he would go for a 26 year old. I too think it would be/is a relief to him that she isn't really 26.  And why is she still "26" after 3 years?! 

I don't think the show would leave the audience in the dark so long if Charles knew.  That's not the usual way these things tend to go on TV shows, anyway.  I think we would at least be given reasons to suspect that he knows.  A certain look on his face, perhaps.  A reference that would tend to be only gotten by someone older that makes him go "hmmmmm", and the camera zooms in for us to see the suspicion on his face.  I would actually like it if the show did that.  I think it would be better if Charles suspects and it's not a complete shock to him when and if she finally tells him (or he gets conclusive proof), and for the show to let us on to his suspicion.

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She's also still 40. Although it was nearly her birthday when she ended up in hospital halfway through last season. This is one of those things that's bothered me intermittently since the second season, although I guess maybe it's not been a year in show time?

Yeah, the timeline is very wonky.  I guess it may not have been a year in show time, but there's apparently been enough time that has passed where Liza and Josh dated seriously twice (at least long enough where discussions of children and marriage were treated as plausible by the characters), the whole millennial line was launched and Liza left and returned to her job.  And that doesn't even get into all the other plot developments. 

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I think the show is now using the age of 26 less literally. Kelsey and her friends haven't talked about birthdays and being a year older, have they? There's no generational difference between 26 and, say, 30. The point is being a millennial, which Liza is not, not being a specific age.

That said, the show does need to clean up the time line. It would be useful to know how long Liza has been lying, especially since the longer it goes on, the worse the fallout will (should) be.

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On 7/1/2017 at 9:27 AM, Snarklepuss said:

Thank you, ITA.  I'm hardly unaware of what's going on in modern society and culture especially compared with people my age (59) but I too don't have Netflix nor did I have a clue what "Black Mirror" was.  That's probably more a function of not having Netflix than my age or my level of cultural awareness, though, IMO.  Taking a look at it online I saw that it's hardly a sweeping cultural phenomenon given the few episodes in existence and its limited availability, and I figure it's one of those "niche" things that unless you're a subscriber and are exposed to a certain milieu you might not know.  Should I expect every Millennial to know what "Are You Being Served?" or "Fawlty Towers" was?  Just because it was 40 years ago and not current doesn't make it irrelevant.  But no, I wouldn't expect them to know what they were even if I do think they were iconic and household words when I was young.  And I wouldn't say young people were uninformed or uneducated in TV history for not being aware of something that to their generation might be a very niche interest.  So I kind of expect that level of respect for my own knowledge in return.  But I've gone on too much already.

I'm kind of two minds, on the one hand I get how somebody obsessed with pop culture and television would know what Black Mirror is, but it is no way, absolutely no way on the level of Are You Being Served or Fawlty Towers.   This Millennial knows what they are, but I'm an old one.  Black Mirror is not a household name in my opinion.   Far from it.  To me it's still kind of niche.  Maybe because I'm in Canada.  I think it's only available through Netflix here, and only since recently.  Is it available through any other channel?  It's not even an easy show to watch, and it's not really bingeable, as every episode is self-contained.  And each episode is an hour or more.  

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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I think it's okay to expect Liza, Diana, and Charles to be more aware of things because a) they're in New York City, a media center and b) they work for a publishing company, something that to a certain degree depends on knowing which way the wind blows (to bring in a Boomer reference; heh).

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I think Charles is attractive to Liza because being older they have similar frames of reference, he won't expect more children, he respects women,  he represents more stability, but is still trying to get along and keep up with changing tech, social norms, etc.

i guess I'm going to have to add Black Mirror to my Netflix queue.  I've heard of it, but don't really know what it's about.

I too wonder what happened to Josh's roommates.  Really makes you wonder how the hell Carrie afforded her own apartment in SATC.

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10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm kind of two minds, on the one hand I get how somebody obsessed with pop culture and television would know what Black Mirror is, but it is no way, absolutely no way on the level of Are You Being Served or Fawlty Towers.   This Millennial knows what they are, but I'm an old one.  Black Mirror is not a household name in my opinion.   Far from it.  To me it's still kind of niche.  Maybe because I'm in Canada.  I think it's only available through Netflix here, and only since recently.  Is it available through any other channel?  It's not even an easy show to watch, and it's not really bingeable, as every episode is self-contained.  And each episode is an hour or more.  

As far as I can see, it's only available on Netflix in the US too, and only since October of 2016, previously having been on BBC since 2011.  Oct 2016 is hardly enough time to expect anyone that busy to catch up with it, plus what if you don't have Netflix?  Do you have to have Netflix to be young and well informed these days?  I already pay $50,000 a month for cable, I don't need to spend any more for mostly movies and series I've either already seen or have no interest in seeing.  If I miss one thing that might be interesting because of it, oh well, I'll just have to settle for being "old and socially uninformed".

Besides, I read that the majority of millennials don't pay for Netflix, probably meaning that they live at home and watch it on their parents' dime.
 

10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think it's okay to expect Liza, Diana, and Charles to be more aware of things because a) they're in New York City, a media center and b) they work for a publishing company, something that to a certain degree depends on knowing which way the wind blows (to bring in a Boomer reference; heh).

As the child of a literary mother that once worked for a publishing company in NYC, in my experience these people are way too busy living "real lives" and actually reading books to be that up on TV shows.  But that's in my experience 30 years ago.  My mother had her media interests, but they were very selective.

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3 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

As far as I can see, it's only available on Netflix in the US too, and only since October of 2016, previously having been on BBC since 2011.  Oct 2016 is hardly enough time to expect anyone that busy to catch up with it, plus what if you don't have Netflix?  Do you have to have Netflix to be young and well informed these days?  I already pay $50,000 a month for cable, I don't need to spend any more for mostly movies and series I've either already seen or have no interest in seeing.  If I miss one thing that might be interesting because of it, oh well, I'll just have to settle for being "old and socially uninformed".

Besides, I read that the majority of millennials don't pay for Netflix, probably meaning that they live at home and watch it on their parents' dime.

I know a lot of people who are in their 40s, don't have cable, and don't have netflix but they still watch all the current shows like Black Mirror. In PTV parlance, the mods refer to it as Flying to England. There are lots of ways to watch tv shows through unofficial channels and the fact that 40 somethings are doing it tells me that Charles, Diana, and Liza are portrayed as way more technologically clueless than the people who I know in real life who are the same age.

As for the millennials who don't pay for Netflix, this was mentioned as an insult on Veep this season and then debated at great length. There are some millennials who got their parents to sign up for Netflix while they were still in high school and when they moved out, they kept using their parents' login/password. There are also a lot of 20-30 year old people I know where one person signs up for Netflix and then shares the login/password with all of their friends so only one person in their social circle is actually paying for it and everyone else is using it for free.

On 7/1/2017 at 8:13 AM, dubbel zout said:
On 7/1/2017 at 6:48 AM, Snarklepuss said:

What's wrong with Hemmingway?

If you're talking about the writer, it has only one "m," for one thing. ;-)

Ha! This made me laugh more than it should have!

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5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I know a lot of people who are in their 40s, don't have cable, and don't have netflix but they still watch all the current shows like Black Mirror. In PTV parlance, the mods refer to it as Flying to England. There are lots of ways to watch tv shows through unofficial channels and the fact that 40 somethings are doing it tells me that Charles, Diana, and Liza are portrayed as way more technologically clueless than the people who I know in real life who are the same age.

Sure, I know how to find it online free too but the point is they'd have to a) know about it and b) care about it enough to do so, which I doubt most people in Charles' and Diana's positions would do.  I don't think it has to be an age or "technologically clueless" thing.  I'm sure if I asked some 40-ish executives at my old company if they'd ever heard of it, I'd get a resounding "no".  These are people that are consumed with their work, not TV shows.  I do get that this show is always trying to make it into a "clueless" thing, though.

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ha! This made me laugh more than it should have!

Thanks a whole frickin' lot - I make ONE mistake and that's what I get!  NOT NICE!  :(  I was probably reading Hemingway before most people on this board were born!

Edited by kariyaki · Reason: removed link - please don't post links to questionably legal streaming sites

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7 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Thanks a whole frickin' lot - I make ONE mistake and that's what I get!  NOT NICE!  :(  I was probably reading Hemingway before most people on this board were born!

Feel free to blame the uncultured Australian you were quoting who spelled it wrong first - I won't mind ;) 

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I do think they could have used something other than Black Mirror as an example of generational fluency//lack thereof. I'm way older than Liza, and I know about it because I read a review in The New Yorker last November. I'm sure that, as New Yorkers in the publishing business, Liza and Charles also read TNY. (Okay, I admit that's very nitpicky of me, but it bugged me a little.)

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17 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Thanks a whole frickin' lot - I make ONE mistake and that's what I get!  NOT NICE!  :(  I was probably reading Hemingway before most people on this board were born!

I was just laughing at the typo - we've all made funny mistakes like that!

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On 6/29/2017 at 7:51 PM, dubbel zout said:

This has always bothered me, and I wish the show dealt with this more than it does. Just because there's no actual age difference doesn't mean the power differential doesn't exist either.

That's how I feel, too. I like Charles and I don't think not being torn about this is in line with his character. 

Even if she were really 26, I wouldn't have a problem with her dating a man Charles' age, so long as he's not her boss.  They actually have chemistry and common interests. 

On 6/30/2017 at 8:26 AM, luna1122 said:

It's increasingly harder to believe that anyone would actually believe Liza was in her 20s.

I think Charles is handsome, and I'd be interested in Hemingway/literary memorabilia too, but he's....stodgy and kind of boring. Of course, I think ultimately Liza is inherently that as well, so I guess they're a good match. Also, I'm older than Liza and Maggie, and for them to not have a CLUE what 'black mirror' is was stupid. I mean, I'm guessing it's supposed to be yet one more thing 'old folks' aren't hip enuf to know about, right?

I totally do think Josh and Kelsey will hook up, and it will be mostly all about Liza, at first, but they actually do have some chemistry. And I don't think Liza has much of a leg to stand on if she gets jealous.

The rape joke was not funny, tho the line read of 'whoops' by the actress who plays Lauren admittedly was.

I'm about a year (maybe two) younger than Liza and Maggie are supposed to be and I had to google Black Mirror.  Sometimes I google the cultural references used in TV shows, but I didn't even look this up until after reading the commentary here. Out of the four people I asked about it, the only one who had heard of it was someone in her late 40s and she said that's because of her husband who's around 50.   Also, they are the only ones in my immediate social circle who watch Netflix.  Perhaps Black Mirror is one of the many references on this show that has more to do with a person's interests and the interests of the people in their social circles rather than with age.

Totally agree about the tasteless rape joke. I could really do without the Lauren character.  A lot of the tasteless, age stereotyping lines are hers. She's not funny to me, and these tasteless attempts at humor don't make it any better. 

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Late to the party, but I just binged the show over the weekend, as I find I enjoy it more when I binge it.  I'm about half way through right now. 

On 6/29/2017 at 6:05 PM, MissEwa said:

+1. As someone who is inching ever closer to 40 (and moves in very writerly circles), this show confuses me sometimes. Hemmingway? Really? I don't understand the stilted way he speaks, either, and I know #teamcharles is winning and all but I can't really get over the fact that as far as he knows, she's a 26-year-old junior at the company he owns. I'm not on board with him not even being particularly conflicted about that.

This has always been the thing that has bothered me the most about Charles, and also about Liza not immediately putting a stop to it.  I just can't get past it.  He is her boss, and even if it doesn't bother him, does Liza really want to be the girl that slept with the boss?  I don't care how good looking and/or charming he is.  Unless she is prepared to quit, there's not really a way this can end well for her (unless they get married, of course, but that's not a show I want to watch).  She will always be that girl - or is that another thing that doesn't matter anymore?

On 6/30/2017 at 4:15 PM, voiceover said:

When you're this far into your career, you're still working in the parameters of *how* you learned things.  Learning the latest tech is easy enough for someone who grew up on that moving sidewalk.  Harder when you have to sprint to catch up to that sidewalk.  With your arms full of old-knowledge baggage.  And you have to jump.  Doesn't matter if your profession is now embracing it.

This.  The really scary thing is that at 50, I'm the 3rd youngest person in my small office (there are only 7 of us), so I have been designated the "web guru" by default (it has been a very slow, painful learning process).  The boss, as the 2nd youngest, is the Facebook guy.  The youngest, while technically an "older millennial" and constantly glued to her phone, is responsible for nothing web based, as she is pretty hopeless with it all.  She can't even manage her own calendar without my help.  We do what we can.

Totally unrelated to anything, but my birthday was in June, and it's only been in the last few weeks that I have been able to say my age out loud...I was so not ready for this.

On 7/1/2017 at 3:47 AM, Maharincess said:

I have a sincere question, not to the poster I quoted, but to the board. How is the scene with Diana and whats-her-name transphobic?  All I saw was a woman saying another woman was transgender and the other woman denying it.   How is that being phobic?  I'm not transphobic in the least but if somebody said I was transgender, I would also deny it.  I watched it live and had to put the dog outside while it was on so I may have missed something.   Like I said, its a sincere question because I didn't see a problem with it but others seem to and I'm curious as to why.  I don't think joking about something means you've got a phobia, but that is just my opinion.  I'm sorry if this offends anyone. 

I have a totally different take on this scene from you and everyone else, it seems.  I didn't see Marilyn attacking Diana's femininity, or even calling Diana transgender, at least seriously.  Marilyn is a spin doctor and that's what her book is about.  She was explaining what she does and how she does it and why she is so good at her job and how she shapes narratives.  As she says "You say it loud, you say it often, then when people contradict you, they sound like defensive babies".  

Was it deliberate? Absolutely.  Diana had challenged her by saying (correctly) that "fact" and "factotum" were two separate words.  But I don't think it was malicious or a slam on transsexuals or even Diana.  It was a very effective demonstration on how narratives can be very easily manipulated.  I didn't find the scene particularly funny, but I didn't think it was offensive.  

On 7/2/2017 at 6:53 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm against the Kelsey/Josh hookup because I like the Kelsey and Liza friendship. If Kelsey and josh happen, that friendship won't be the same. At least to me. I know plenty lf shows try to make friends stay the same after dating the others significant others (I mean basis of a lot of shows in my viewing life) but the friendships always feel so forced after this story development. So it would make me mad.

We are given very rare female friendship shows that never have a guy somehow come between them. Guys in shows get these friendships but girls it seems never. In some way a guy comes between them and it makes me angry, so I hope it doesn't happen for that reason.

Amen!  Like I said, I'm only about 1/2 way through the season, but I really hope this doesn't happen.  Not that Josh owes her anything, because he really, really doesn't, and Liza would probably try to pretend that it was all good, but how could it not hurt?

On 7/2/2017 at 3:42 PM, Mabinogia said:

I'm another GenXer who doesn't get the appeal of Charles. He's just so stodgy. I love Josh, though I don't see him and Liza as a long term couple since they are in very different places in their lives and sadly, women have a shelf life as far as child bearing goes, so if Josh wants kids down the road Liza is kind of not an option.

I love Sutton Foster, but I hate that they lightened her hair, presumably to make her seem younger, because it aged her. The second her hair was lightened she suddenly looked her age. It makes it a little hard to sympathize with Kelsey when I'm sitting there thinking "But LOOK at her!?!?! She's clearly not 20 something. DUH!" haha. No, I get her being hurt. I just hate that it looks like that hurt is going to make her hook up with Josh. That's just the laziest possible way to keep him on the show.

For what it's worth, my 23 year old son was shocked when I told him that Sutton Foster was 42.  He said he didn't really buy her as 26, but would have believed that she was 30 or so.

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On 7/1/2017 at 9:27 AM, Snarklepuss said:

Thank you, ITA.  I'm hardly unaware of what's going on in modern society and culture especially compared with people my age (59) but I too don't have Netflix nor did I have a clue what "Black Mirror" was.  That's probably more a function of not having Netflix than my age or my level of cultural awareness, though, IMO.  Taking a look at it online I saw that it's hardly a sweeping cultural phenomenon given the few episodes in existence and its limited availability, and I figure it's one of those "niche" things that unless you're a subscriber and are exposed to a certain milieu you might not know.  Should I expect every Millennial to know what "Are You Being Served?" or "Fawlty Towers" was?  Just because it was 40 years ago and not current doesn't make it irrelevant.  But no, I wouldn't expect them to know what they were even if I do think they were iconic and household words when I was young.  And I wouldn't say young people were uninformed or uneducated in TV history for not being aware of something that to their generation might be a very niche interest.  So I kind of expect that level of respect for my own knowledge in return.  But I've gone on too much already.

Yes,  absolutely you should.   I don't associate with fellow millennials that don't unless I intend on introducing them to those shows. 

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On 6/29/2017 at 4:54 PM, gesundheit said:

I find Charles so dull. Liza is 40, not 60. 

DITTO. I am struggling to see the chemistry between them. I'm not a huge fan of Liza right now, so all these little cutsy scenes between her and Charles (snore) are just making me roll my eyes. I'm glad Josh and Kelsey are not falling over themselves to forgive her. She deserves to feel the impact of her deception and cheating. 

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On 7/5/2017 at 7:56 PM, Hanahope said:

I too wonder what happened to Josh's roommates.  Really makes you wonder how the hell Carrie afforded her own apartment in SATC.

Carrie's apartment was rent-controlled.

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