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S01.E13: Tape 7, Side A

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Well this was a heavy show. Just finished it. 

 

I definitely liked it and I thought it's depiction of high school was realistic. You could feel how even little things affected Hannah and the pain she was going through. I just want to say I think Jessica deserved better. Although she was bitchy at times Hannah should have told her what happened when she was alive instead of over the tape for so many other people to here and letting her get manipulated by Justin and others. That was one problem I had with Hannah she put Justin on the tapes for letting Jessica get raped but she did the same thing? I mean she was right there too and there was nothing stopping her from telling Jessica. 

The suicide scene was scary I had to turn away. 

Is there going to be a season 2 because it ended with a lot of cliffhangers. Alex shooting himself. And Tyler has a gun. What is he going to do with it? What happened to Sheri after she told the truth? And will Bryce get what he deserves? What will Hannah's parents do after listening to the tapes?

I liked the overarching theme about rape culture and the effect it can have on girls. That was well done. 

Edited by ban1o
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I wondered if the show was hinting that Tyler had actually shot Alex and made it seem like a suicide-- he seemed to have pictures of the "13" people in his darkroom and took down Alex's picture as if he had taken him off his hit list. 

Otherwise this final episode was really strong. I'm 37 and it really got to me. All these kids deserved better (except Bryce) despite whatever behavior/action they may have displayed or taken. They're teenagers. 

I think Hannah did try to tell Jessica while she was alive, but, again... teenagers... can't expect them to communicate in the most mature ways. The Jessica rape scene and afterward were difficult to watch and I don't know what I would have done at age 16-17 if I had been in Hannah's shoes. 

I can't even begin to imagine how much more hurt Hannah's poor parents are going to feel after listening to the tapes. And it makes me so damn sad that teenagers (and adults, too, but especially teenagers) can't see any other way forward with their lives and so commit suicide. It's profoundly sad in a way that is indescribable with mere words and this show really drives that home.  

P.S. One concern I had throughout was that some despondent/hopeless teenager/kid will watch this series and decide to do something similar. I know the show is not a PSA, but it is in the Young Adult genre, technically, and I don't know if they showed that Hannah had other options that she just couldn't see-- yeah they showed that Clay really cared for her, but... it just wasn't enough. I'm not sure wha they could have done here to address that. 

Edited by toogoodtobetrue · Reason: Added thoughts
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On 4/1/2017 at 5:27 PM, toogoodtobetrue said:

 

P.S. One concern I had throughout was that some despondent/hopeless teenager/kid will watch this series and decide to do something similar. I know the show is not a PSA, but it is in the Young Adult genre, technically, and I don't know if they showed that Hannah had other options that she just couldn't see-- yeah they showed that Clay really cared for her, but... it just wasn't enough. I'm not sure wha they could have done here to address that. 

Yeah I've been thinking something similar. Also the suicide scene was just so graphic... I don't know how someone contemplating suicide would react to it. I almost feel like it romanticizes suicide in a way. They should have made it clear she had other options and what those were. 

Also I didn't expect it to be Alex who shot himself. Were Tyler and Justin distraction because Tyler bought had a  gun and justin had one too. I did think alex seemed suicidal the whole time. And I guess since his dad is a cop he had easy access to guns. 

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4 hours ago, ban1o said:

That was one problem I had with Hannah she put Justin on the tapes for letting Jessica get raped but she did the same thing? I mean she was right there too and there was nothing stopping her from telling Jessica. 

Hannah pretty explicitly said she blamed herself for that as well. "This tape is about you and me, Justin." and "That girl had two chances that night, and we both let her down." I don't really see it as hypocritical when she holds herself accountable as well-- and while I don't think killing oneself is truly holding oneself accountable, it can certainly seem like it when one is in that mindset. 

She was clearly haunted by her inaction. Another quote from her on the tapes right after talking about what happened: "How do I live with that?"

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13 minutes ago, Ikki said:

Hannah pretty explicitly said she blamed herself for that as well. "This tape is about you and me, Justin." and "That girl had two chances that night, and we both let her down." I don't really see it as hypocritical when she holds herself accountable as well-- and while I don't think killing oneself is truly holding oneself accountable, it can certainly seem like it when one is in that mindset. 

She was clearly haunted by her inaction. Another quote from her on the tapes right after talking about what happened: "How do I live with that?"

Yeah your right actually Hannah did blame herself. I really disliked Jessica initially but by the end I just felt really sorry for her. Like for 90% of the show she was being manipulated and seemed confused and lost. And idk I guess I didn't really like how hannah put that on the tapes for 11 other people to hear. But Hannah did seem remorseful for what happened. 

Actually a lot of the characters who I hated initially I ended up feeling some sympathy for.  But I guess that was the purpose of the show. 

Edited by ban1o
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Wow. I feel like Alex, like him, I practically could not stop watching until I listened to all of Hannah's tapes. What an awful entanged mess.

What an ending. I need to get my book out and reread the ending. The fallout from Hannah's tapes are going to be explosive on the show.

The amount of guns in teens hands during this episode was unreal. Justin and Alex both had access but Tyler? He built himself quite the arsenal.

I assumed the pictures at the end of his scene was his hit list. Alex was taken off because he stood up for Tyler. Even Clay isnt innocent here, he took that one picture of Tyler. I'm wondering if we're supposed to assume that there's going to be a school shooting in season two, or an arc to save Tyler from his fate of being a school shooter. It's an interesting take because he and Hannah were both bullied. The show is showing us two different outcomes from intense school bullying.

I think Hannah broke everyone with her tapes like they broke her. The sucide scene was just awful. I literally couldn't watch. So much blood in the tub. Her parents reactions, they broke my heart. Hannah talks about their fights right, on the tapes? I dont know if its going to be better that they know.

I wish other book adaptations were handled with such care. I would watch every one of my favorite books on Netflix because between this and A Series of Unfortunate Events, I am blown away.

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Yeah I did really feel for Alex. Actually thinking back he was clearly suicidal the whole time. He had no friends, getting into a fight with that kid, pulling out of school activities. The scene where he randomly started speeding in the car with the boys. And although he was kind of a jerk I truly felt bad for him. All he did was make a list. He had a lot of toxic masculinity at his home from his dad and bother and nowhere to express his emotion. And he truly loved Jessica who wouldn't take him back and he messed up the only true friendships he had. 

And yeah it def seems they are setting up Tyler to be a school shooter. They really did a lot of setting up for season 2. I kind of want to see it. Too many unfinished storylines. I also want to see what happens to Justin and especially Jessica. 

Edited by ban1o
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Don't forget that scene where he jumped into the pool. I thought that was an attempt right there.

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2 minutes ago, Ikki said:

Don't forget that scene where he jumped into the pool. I thought that was an attempt right there.

Yes this too.  Iforgot. You could just feel he was hurting the whole time. I don't know why I didn't expect him to be the one who shot himself I guess their red herrings worked on me lol. I hope he survived. 

Really the only characters I personally outright disliked were Courtney, Marcus and obviously Bryce. 

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Watched 'em all - reminiscent of American Crime Story season about a rape in a high school, with a dash of It's a Wonderful Life, plus every teen drama ever made, deeply moving in some places, oddly irritating in others, but it was impossible to take my eyes off of.  I can agree with reviewers who think it was too long - so much filler and so much of poor old Clay staring bemusedly into the distance, but it was completely addictive.  Although the door is open for Season 2, I don't know if I would watch it.  Without Hannah, the others are not sympathetic enough to keep me going for 13 hours, all of Clay's positive qualities notwithstanding.  Maybe I'll care more about the unresolved issues left after I've had time to process it all more.  I'm glad I'm retired so I could watch straight through.  

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This was a rough series to watch. It had a lot of issues, such as trying to fill up time for all thirteen episodes, but they got the emotional resonance down. They really found a way to get me to feel for 90% of the characters. They tried for others, such as Courtney and Marcus, but I could never care for them or Bryce. There were also many moments that I just couldn't watch, which doesn't happen often with a show. Hannah and Jessica's rapes were two examples. The suicide scene was a solid third. 

I did think that Justin had been the one to shoot himself from the last episode, but Alex makes total sense. He's shown the signs all season, with his guilt eating away at him but being too afraid to speak up, to his dangerous activities, to his attempt many episodes ago in Bryce's pool. They really showed almost all of the kids having varying reactions to Hannah's death and their reactions to her tapes. 

Hannah was such an interesting and complex character that I don't know if season 2 will be the same without her. Maybe it would have been better to have wrapped things up and left it as a mini series. I get that there'll definitely be a season 2 because Netflix renews pretty much all of their original content, but I don't know whether a season-less Hannah with suffice. Or maybe it'll be a success. They certainly have a story with Tyler there. He was bullied about as bad as Hannah, so it's interesting that they'll go another route with him, a much more dangerous one. Not even Clay was nice to Tyler and I was not surprised with his ending at all. I am surprised he readily took down Alex's photo, only because that one moment of standing up for him was just that--a moment surrounded by other instances of Alex sniping at him. But maybe it really does take one moment to change an event. Too bad Tyler will found out that Alex was not saved, after all.

They also have a story with Justin and Jessica to figure out. Justin's now been shown to have nobody really in his life. He doesn't have a family anymore, Jessica's pissed at him, and he dropped his very best friend for good reason. I think he's in a very low place and despite how much of an asshole he's been throughout the season, I'm somewhat interested in seeing his own recovery process. Jessica's a character that I thought I hated until about episode 9, when I discovered how much I just felt sorry for her and wanted better for her.  Courtney and Marcus are pretty abysmal characters who never quite got the sympathy factor from me. I don't think the show tried hard enough, but I'll bet that will be their season 2 storyline. Ryan was just kind of there for me the entire season. Tyler's a character I really felt sorry for, even when he was taking pictures of girls that he shouldn't have been. Nobody was actually nice to him. Sheri's probably the only truly likable person in that entire non-Clay group, but she was never really part of the group in the first place. 

Tony really might have been my favourite character throughout the season, so it was good to see his own subtle growth. Clay's morality is what really saved him, but I do think he had a lot of his own dick moments. 

I do believe that Alex will be around for season 2, so it'll be interesting to see his own recovery process. And as for the Bakers? They're going to listen to everything that happened to their daughter and I don't know how they're going to get through it. 

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I  liked the fact that Clay had dick moments because it showed he wasn't perfect. He was this nice guy who was falible as anyone. Hannah hurted him too.

I also loved the fact that Hannah understood some things wrong. She was dealing with so much and had been so hurt that she became defensive and coudn't see that she was loved, that there were other people she could count on (like Tony, or other kids who weren't popular, Clay, her parents, the librarian guy, Kathy). When you're depressed you feel like everyone would be better off without you.

I felt for everyone but Marcus and Bryce.

Props to Minette, Langford, Boe, Flynn and Heizer. Great cast.

After I finished the series I couldn't stop thinking about it. I wanted to rescue everyone.

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47 minutes ago, TotalHellion said:

I don't think anyone was supposed to feel bad for Bryce but the actor sold the character and made me believe he really was that dickhead jock who doesn't think he did anything wrong. 

That's what happens when you have neither supervision nor consequences. He thinks he can do whatever he wants because he always has. He's That Guy. If he doesn't face consequences for raping Jessica, he'll go off to college and leave a dozen more rape victims in his wake.

17 hours ago, toogoodtobetrue said:

I can't even begin to imagine how much more hurt Hannah's poor parents are going to feel after listening to the tapes. And it makes me so damn sad that teenagers (and adults, too, but especially teenagers) can't see any other way forward with their lives and so commit suicide. It's profoundly sad in a way that is indescribable with mere words and this show really drives that home.  

I tangentially know a 13-year-old boy who committed suicide a couple of years ago. And one of the things the media wrote about him afterward that has stuck with me is "What decision did you make when you were 13 that you'd want to be permanent?" It's so sad.

I feel very sorry for her parents. There's so much that they didn't know, and while they were having their own troubles with the store, there's nothing that led me to believe that they wouldn't have immediately tried to help her if she'd gone to them about any of it. 

Jessica's father will always be Martin Kendall from The Cosby Show to me.

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This was a very hard show to watch at times. I couldn't stop watching, but had to take breaks here and there. Not exactly what I was expecting, but very well done series, I think.

23 hours ago, ban1o said:

I definitely liked it and I thought it's depiction of high school was realistic. You could feel how even little things affected Hannah and the pain she was going through. I just want to say I think Jessica deserved better. Although she was bitchy at times Hannah should have told her what happened when she was alive instead of over the tape for so many other people to here and letting her get manipulated by Justin and others. That was one problem I had with Hannah she put Justin on the tapes for letting Jessica get raped but she did the same thing? I mean she was right there too and there was nothing stopping her from telling Jessica. 

That's one of the 13 reasons why, though. Hannah did blame herself and the reason Jessica's rape was on the tapes, I think, was to point out that she made mistakes and has regrets too. 

20 hours ago, toogoodtobetrue said:

I wondered if the show was hinting that Tyler had actually shot Alex and made it seem like a suicide-- he seemed to have pictures of the "13" people in his darkroom and took down Alex's picture as if he had taken him off his hit list. 

I wondered about that too. It wouldn't be hard to make it look like suicide since Alex has been on a downward spiral throughout the series. It does seem like they're saying that all these kids have the potential to be horrible current events, will someone now step up and try to help them be something else.

20 hours ago, toogoodtobetrue said:

I know the show is not a PSA, but it is in the Young Adult genre, technically, and I don't know if they showed that Hannah had other options that she just couldn't see-- yeah they showed that Clay really cared for her, but... it just wasn't enough. I'm not sure wha they could have done here to address that. 

Actually, I think the show is a subversive PSA. Or it could be...or maybe it should be?

19 hours ago, ban1o said:

Yeah I've been thinking something similar. Also the suicide scene was just so graphic... I don't know how someone contemplating suicide would react to it. I almost feel like it romanticizes suicide in a way. They should have made it clear she had other options and what those were. 

I didn't think the actual suicide was romanticized. It was horrible and violent and painful. I was beginning to think they were romanticizing Hannah Baker a bit too much until they showed just how horrible the actual act was. And, watching the parents and then the fallout from everyone around her. In the end, I think they did a good job of showing it's not a pleasant or peaceful solution. 

18 hours ago, ban1o said:

Actually a lot of the characters who I hated initially I ended up feeling some sympathy for.  But I guess that was the purpose of the show. 

I thought they did a good job of showing that everyone has a backstory and a POV. Doesn't mean I have to like them or sympathize with them, just that they do have reasons that, in their minds, are good ones.

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Hannah was such an interesting and complex character that I don't know if season 2 will be the same without her.

I'm not sure how I feel about a S2. Not because of Hannah, but because I think they told their story and made their point, to continue on might water it down for me. Although, I could see them doing another season and following the aftermath of a completely different set of characters. I don't know right now.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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I thoroughly enjoyed this series.  I am open to a second season.  I don't think Tyler was involved in Alex's shooting, but he's definitely planning on something big with those guns.  Other than Jessica, Alex appeared the most fragile.  And speaking of Jessica, I don't see her Dad sitting on the information of what happened to her.  It also made me reflect on just how much better Hannah's situation would've been had she told her parents about what had happened to her.

The actors playing Hannah & Clay were fantastic.  His scene with the counselor was really well done.  

I'm long out of high school, but I could really see this series as something worth showing in schools today.

Edited by AttackTurtle
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I watched the series within about 20 hours. That last episode was hard to watch, but they definitely left it open for a season 2. I've been waiting for this for 10 years, and the show was much more than I had imagined. They did such an amazing job with it! I'm glad they could go into so much more depth with each character. I wouldn't mind one more season. I'm really interested in finding out what happens to everyone. I will be rewatching this show over and over for years to come.

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1 hour ago, AttackTurtle said:

 And speaking of Jessica, I don't see her Dad sitting on the information of what happened to her.

Me neither. He told Jessica he'd kill anyone who hurt her and he's also military, so he's likely got a strong sense of fairness and is used to seeing actions have consequences. I don't think he'd actually kill Bryce but I do think he'd go straight to the cops.

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I think that Justin if there is a season 2 will show some growth. I think after seeing the avalanche of events and the guilt I think he felt for not only stopping Hannah's photo from going out but also not stopping Bryce from raping Jessica will change him and hopefully for the best. Like in a perfect world he'd become an advocate for survivors to atone for keeping quiet. I don't think that's the direction the show would go but I could see it. 

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On 4/1/2017 at 6:27 PM, toogoodtobetrue said:

I wondered if the show was hinting that Tyler had actually shot Alex and made it seem like a suicide-- he seemed to have pictures of the "13" people in his darkroom and took down Alex's picture as if he had taken him off his hit list. 

That thought definitely crossed my mind, especially because we never saw Alex shoot himself. Granted, I know that was partly done to build the tension as viewers wondered who it was, but I can definitely see that being a possible direction they go in. That said,  I wouldn't be surprised if it was a suicide attempt because I definitely agree that Alex was showing signs of being suicidal throughout the episodes. In each episode he seemed more and more emotionally and even physically checked out. 

On 4/1/2017 at 7:46 PM, ban1o said:

I really disliked Jessica initially but by the end I just felt really sorry for her. Like for 90% of the show she was being manipulated and seemed confused and lost. And idk I guess I didn't really like how hannah put that on the tapes for 11 other people to hear. But Hannah did seem remorseful for what happened. 

Not that it makes it better, plus most of the people who listened to the tapes figured out who it was but Hannah made sure not to ever say Jessica's name when talking about what happened that night. She mentions Justin, but not Jessica. That being said, it may just be me, but I actually got the feeling that Jessica did know what happened and didn't really believe what Justin told her, so much as she wanted to believe it. But the second time they flashed back to the rape, Jessica was remembering it and I think it was clear that she woke up enough during the act to have some understanding of what was happening to her.

She probably tried to bury and deny it to herself and probably asked Justin the next day, who gave the story of them having sex. But when she heard Hannah's tapes, she couldn't keep lying to herself and maybe thinking she was just confused because she was so out of it, because Hannah was clearly there and saw the whole thing. 

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I assumed the pictures at the end of his scene was his hit list. Alex was taken off because he stood up for Tyler. 

Honestly, this may be unpopular but I kind of hate Tyler as much as I hate Bryce. Yes, he's being bullied and is ignored and treated like crap by the popular kids as they do to many others. But these other people aren't stalkers. I never saw any damn remorse from Tyler for his behavior and instead, he tried to justify it when Clay confronted him, trying to throw in Clay's face how he always just stood on the sideline, silently in love with Hannah. That may be true but Clay wasn't stalking Hannah. Tyler was well aware how freaked out Hannah was when she heard him in the bushes.

His so called crap about people being their most honest when they don't know the camera is there means there is no way he missed the obvious fear on her face. And yet he kept doing it. And then he spitefully publicly released the picture when Hannah laughed incredulously at his invite to hang out because of course she did. The girl just found out he'd been creepily stalking her and that's when he wants to ask her to hang out. But of course he makes it seem like he's so the wronged and mistreated party. I also didn't miss the slight smirk and pleasure he took at mentioning Clay was the one who had the tapes, knowing Clay's mom was the lawyer for the school and in the room. 

One of my favorite scenes in a movie is from The Social Network, when the woman says to Mark that he'll go through his whole life convinced that people don't like him because he's a geek or a nerd and in fact, the truth is people didn't like him because he was an asshole. In other words, even the bullied can be bullies themselves and be assholes. And in my opinion, that was Tyler - a creepy, asshole little shit. 

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Really the only characters I personally outright disliked were Courtney, Marcus and obviously Bryce. 

I feel like I almost hated Courtney and Marcus more than Bryce, just because Bryce, as bad as this sounds, is such an unfortunate stereotype. He is every rich privileged jock who's been made to believe that they're a God in high school and that means taking whatever they want whenever, including girls because well what girl doesn't want them.

So if she says no, she doesn't actually mean it. He was every sexually aggressive predatory bully in sadly every teenage/high school story. People know the Bryce's, they're usually just too afraid and intimidated to stand up to them. Courtney and Marcus though are the sociopaths that most never see coming and never know about. The "perfect" high school students with their perfect grades, perfect manners and who everyone likes. And instead they're awful human beings who lack any kind of empathy for anyone. 

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Ryan was just kind of there for me the entire season. 

His lack of screen time is the only thing that saved him in my opinion, because I put him as low as Marcus and Courtney and found his judgments of Courtney to be pretty rich. This is a guy who preyed on an obviously very vulnerable Hannah for his stupid little school magazine and felt zero remorse for it. The girl was already basically being treated like shit around the high school and he knew it and didn't give a shit. And like many of the others, he felt little remorse after the tapes and only just cared about protecting his ass. 

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Sheri's probably the only truly likable person in that entire non-Clay group, but she was never really part of the group in the first place. 

I like Sheri and I liked that she was never part of the group stuff regarding the tapes and in the end basically said screw it and called the police to admit what she did. And honestly, I can't say her leaving the scene of the accident was something most people would not do, especially because she didn't hit anyone. It's awful that the accident happened right after that and likely was because the stop sign was down but I just never thought she was a bad person. Also, I liked her and Clay's chemistry and enjoyed them far more than the coffee house girl. I hate to sound harsh but Clay and his angst is enough, I don't want to watch him with a girl who is even angstier than he is. 

I have to say that one of the saddest parts of the series for me, was the realization of Jeff's death, which I didn't put together until I realized a student died in the accident that happened after Sherri accidentally hit the stop sign. As soon as I saw the scene of Clay at school and Hannah walking up to him emotional, I knew and that made me really sad because I really liked Jeff and especially his friendship with Clay. I thought he seemed to genuinely like and care about Clay and was just a seemingly nice guy.

I did have a few moments of wondering where he was in the present day, but just figured he had nothing to do with Hannah's suicide so that's why he only appeared in the flashbacks. However I should have realized that didn't make sense considering how invested he was in getting Clay to go after Hannah. No way he wouldn't be there a bit more for Clay after Hannah killed herself.

Finally, I have to head to the Book thread because I feel like there were a number of things in the series that weren't in the book. Because I read the book years ago and a rarity for me, I didn't remember much about it after, other than Hannah left tapes and there were these 13 reasons why she killed herself. I know she ended up liking Clay and his tape turned out to be different than the others but I didn't really remember anything more than that, other than when I was done, feeling like I actually didn't get why she killed herself.

Like not to minimize someone's pain but that the things she mentioned just didn't seem that big and I can't imagine I would have thought that if she'd been raped. I feel like I remembered reading the book and coming away thinking that her main reason for killing herself seemed to be that she felt like most of the people on the list didn't care enough or see her enough. So it's possible that I just completely blanked out on the story and don't remember the book very well at all or the series added some major things that weren't in the book. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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I was wondering if it makes it better or worse that the first two people to get the tapes (Justin and Jessica) were the two who knew about Jessica's rape already. On the one hand, at least Jessica was aware of what was on the tapes before others found out. At the same time, there was this threat of her having to pass them on herself or face having it exposed to anyone. 

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5 minutes ago, Ikki said:

I was wondering if it makes it better or worse that the first two people to get the tapes (Justin and Jessica) were the two who knew about Jessica's rape already. On the one hand, at least Jessica was aware of what was on the tapes before others found out. At the same time, there was this threat of her having to pass them on herself or face having it exposed to anyone. 

Well, did Jessica actually know about her rape? Subconsciously, maybe. But I do think that she was mostly in the dark so hearing the second Justin tape just had her assume that Hannah was lying, probably with Justin convincing her it was a lie. So her passing it on wasn't about her letting people know about her rape, because she didn't seem to want to even believe it and she probably buried the memory deep within her mind until Clay got the tapes and started actively questioning them. So, for me, it makes it worse because Jessica wasn't consciously aware of her rape when she passed along the tapes, AND Justin knew about what Hannah was talking about and chose to let her pass them along. However, we do see that it does affect him deeply so at least he didn't get off scot free with the tapes. 

23 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I have to say that one of the saddest parts of the series for me, was the realization of Jeff's death, which I didn't put together until I realized a student died in the accident that happened after Sherri accidentally hit the stop sign. As soon as I saw the scene of Clay at school and Hannah walking up to him emotional, I knew and that made me really sad because I really liked Jeff and especially his friendship with Clay. I thought he seemed to genuinely like and care about Clay and was just a seemingly nice guy.

I didn't put it together until the hallway scene with Clay/Hannah and her mentioning Jeff's name. That's when the shock hit me when I realized that Jeff was missing in the present day timeline and I had no idea. I remember in one of the previous episodes, it was mentioned that two students had died in the span of a few weeks, but I didn't put two and two together until much later. It's kind of sad that his death kind of got swept under the rug due to shock value. Actually, now I want to go back to earlier episodes and look at any hints. 

26 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

His lack of screen time is the only thing that saved him in my opinion, because I put him as low as Marcus and Courtney and found his judgments of Courtney to be pretty rich. This is a guy who preyed on an obviously very vulnerable Hannah for his stupid little school magazine and felt zero remorse for it. The girl was already basically being treated like shit around the high school and he knew it and didn't give a shit. And like many of the others, he felt little remorse after the tapes and only just cared about protecting his ass. 

Oh yeah. In terms of likability or sympathy, it probably goes Sheri>Alex>Zach>Jessica>Justin>Ryan>Tyler>Marcus>Courtney.  At least that's my list. I do rank Tyler above Courtney/Marcus because, despite his attitude and how he had no clue what he was doing to hurt people (but Marcus, Courtney, and Ryan were all pretty much the same in terms of empathy), he was still being bullied by people, he got humiliated the worst from Clay (rightfully so, don't get me wrong, but others needed just as much humiliation but Tyler seemed to be the only true target because of whatever Clay's mindset was during his tape), and it's easy to see him as an example of someone who's being bullied and makes the wrong choice in his actions to stand up to them. While Hannah caused harm to herself, Tyler is going to cause harm to others. However, that doesn't mean that I like Tyler. I may be on your side about hating him as much as Bryce. I think my list pertains to pure sympathy factor, rather than likability.

I don't know; I felt a little more annoyance toward Marcus and Courtney. They were the ones most proactive in trying to provoke Clay into submission and Courtney was defending a rapist, for crying out loud. Courtney was the first to approach Clay as soon as they realized he had the tapes. She was the one to pretend like they were best friends, even though I don't think they've ever hung out together. Marcus just provoked everyone and everything, and was a genuine ass who showed no remorse. Even in this finale, when he's talking to the lawyer, he partly owns up to his actions but not really. That's why I do think Marcus may gain sympathy points faster than Courtney. 

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IMHO, Marcus is worst than Courtney. She did awful things but she was motivated by fear ( a powerful tool for making very stupid and awful things). She was scared and I felt from her a bit of remorse. He was just an asshole.

I think Ryan believed his arguments. I think he felt his magazine was extremely important and that he, as an artist, had to publish her work. Was he right? No.

Edited by braziliangirl
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Just finished the series, and I must say I was exhausted by the end of it. I really enjoyed the earlier episodes, but as it went on I became increasingly annoyed at the overall teen angst and bad decisions made by the characters. I know they are teenagers, and with a series revolving around them, that is what I should expect, but I thought some of them were quite unbelievably stupid and just serves as poor plot points to drag the story.

I'm with most of your regarding Bryce as the least likable character, but his ignorance towards his actions and complete lack of empathy were just too unrealistic for me. Perhaps it's because I've never met a person like him in real life. If I were to rank the teen characters from most likable and/or sympathetic to the least it would be:

Jeff>Hannah>Alex>Sheri>Tony>Clay>Jessica>Justin>Zack>Ryan>Tyler>Courtney>Marcus>Monty>Bryce.

Based on how the characters were portrayed in the show, Jeff was the nicest one. Hannah was mostly sympathetic, but in terms of likability alone, she'd rank lower for me, maybe between Clay and Jessica. Most of you had pointed out the issues regarding Alex, and Sheri really had that one stupid mistake on her plate. Clay is ranked lower because at times he annoyed me with his overall behaviour throughout the series, especially in scenes that involved his parents and/or Tony. I'm rather neutral towards Zack, Ryan and Tyler. Zack quite clearly was not a bad kid, and Ryan was quite harmless, relatively. Tyler seemed like he is turning into someone dangerous, so maybe he will be the main topic of Season 2 if there is one. He did come clean about Hannah's tapes, so at least there's that.

Not sure if I will be tuning in if there is a second season, though it is tempting to see what actions the Bakers will take next.

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16 hours ago, Wizhuzhu said:

Just finished the series, and I must say I was exhausted by the end of it. I really enjoyed the earlier episodes, but as it went on I became increasingly annoyed at the overall teen angst and bad decisions made by the characters. I know they are teenagers, and with a series revolving around them, that is what I should expect, but I thought some of them were quite unbelievably stupid and just serves as poor plot points to drag the story.

I'm with most of your regarding Bryce as the least likable character, but his ignorance towards his actions and complete lack of empathy were just too unrealistic for me. Perhaps it's because I've never met a person like him in real life. If I were to rank the teen characters from most likable and/or sympathetic to the least it would be:

Jeff>Hannah>Alex>Sheri>Tony>Clay>Jessica>Justin>Zack>Ryan>Tyler>Courtney>Marcus>Monty>Bryce.

Based on how the characters were portrayed in the show, Jeff was the nicest one. Hannah was mostly sympathetic, but in terms of likability alone, she'd rank lower for me, maybe between Clay and Jessica. Most of you had pointed out the issues regarding Alex, and Sheri really had that one stupid mistake on her plate. Clay is ranked lower because at times he annoyed me with his overall behaviour throughout the series, especially in scenes that involved his parents and/or Tony. I'm rather neutral towards Zack, Ryan and Tyler. Zack quite clearly was not a bad kid, and Ryan was quite harmless, relatively. Tyler seemed like he is turning into someone dangerous, so maybe he will be the main topic of Season 2 if there is one. He did come clean about Hannah's tapes, so at least there's that.

Not sure if I will be tuning in if there is a second season, though it is tempting to see what actions the Bakers will take next.

Obviously I don't know Brock Turner (the Stanford Rapist) but I'd say given the fact that his dad was quoted as saying what his son did was just "20 minutes of action." I can only imagine that he was a real life Bryce if that's his dad's reaction to what his son did meaning he may not have seen what he did was wrong just like Bryce could've cared less about Jessica and Hannah. 

Edited by TotalHellion
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There are plenty of Bryce in this world. Watch the documentary The Hunting Ground to see a closer look at rape/jock culture in schools. That one focused on colleges but it's just as bad in some high schools. There was a clip of a fraternity at Yale (yes, Yale - America's best and brightest everyone), where part of the initiation had the pledges go to a neighboring sorority house where they were chanting outside, "no means yes..."

So YMMV but I don't find Bryce's lack of empathy in any way unrealistic. I also don't think for one second he was ignorant about what he did to Jessica and Hannah. He knew exactly what he did but again he'd been raised by a family and fed by a school culture that made him believe he was entitled to anything he wanted, including any girl whenever he wanted, no matter what she said.

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@TotalHellion, @truthaboutluv I do agree that while Bryce felt in some way unrealistic to me (rapist-jock culture to be exact; because they are teenagers and why would teenagers behave this way?), he is not to others. Could be cultural difference, could be because I've been living in a rather safe bubble. But I do see that this is indeed, unfortunately, an actual issue in real-life.

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On 4/2/2017 at 9:45 PM, truthaboutluv said:

 

I feel like I almost hated Courtney and Marcus more than Bryce, just because Bryce, as bad as this sounds, is such an unfortunate stereotype. He is every rich privileged jock who's been made to believe that they're a God in high school and that means taking whatever they want whenever, including girls because well what girl doesn't want them.

So if she says no, she doesn't actually mean it. He was every sexually aggressive predatory bully in sadly every teenage/high school story. People know the Bryce's, they're usually just too afraid and intimidated to stand up to them. Courtney and Marcus though are the sociopaths that most never see coming and never know about. The "perfect" high school students with their perfect grades, perfect manners and who everyone likes. And instead they're awful human beings who lack any kind of empathy for anyone. 

 

I definitely knew Courntey and Marcus types in high school. The over achiever, super involved gunner types who were focused about their reputation and future and such they had no empathy for others. And yeah your right those are the people they don’t usually tell you to be careful of.

 

On 4/2/2017 at 9:45 PM, truthaboutluv said:

 

Not that it makes it better, plus most of the people who listened to the tapes figured out who it was but Hannah made sure not to ever say Jessica's name when talking about what happened that night. She mentions Justin, but not Jessica. That being said, it may just be me, but I actually got the feeling that Jessica did know what happened and didn't really believe what Justin told her, so much as she wanted to believe it. But the second time they flashed back to the rape, Jessica was remembering it and I think it was clear that she woke up enough during the act to have some understanding of what was happening to her.

She probably tried to bury and deny it to herself and probably asked Justin the next day, who gave the story of them having sex. But when she heard Hannah's tapes, she couldn't keep lying to herself and maybe thinking she was just confused because she was so out of it, because Hannah was clearly there and saw the whole thing. 

 

Yeah the end of episode 9 shows Jessica definitely had memories of what happened. I think she was in deep denial and wasn't exactly sure if her memories were real. She seemed to really depend on Justin and since he kept on insisting it was a lie she wanted to believe that it was but you could see it was having an effect on her, such as the heavy drinking. I honestly felt bad for her because not only was she raped but she was betrayed by  someone she really trusted. 

I'm just glad she told her dad at the end, meaning he'll most likely do something about it. 

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On 4/2/2017 at 7:44 PM, TotalHellion said:

I think that Justin if there is a season 2 will show some growth. I think after seeing the avalanche of events and the guilt I think he felt for not only stopping Hannah's photo from going out but also not stopping Bryce from raping Jessica will change him and hopefully for the best. Like in a perfect world he'd become an advocate for survivors to atone for keeping quiet. I don't think that's the direction the show would go but I could see it. 

I would hope so. The guy was an asshole but I couldn't help but feel a little bad for him. I don't really think he was an inherently a bad person. It seemed his friendship with Bryce made him that way  and that he wasn't able to stand up to him but he felt indebted to the guy because he was always there for him throughout his shitty family situation. By the end you could really see that his world was falling apart. 

But ugh at him for not only letting his girlfriend get raped but lying about it for so long. SMH. And for letting Bryce spread that picture and not speaking up to defend Hannah. If there is a season 2 (which I'm not sure?) he better have changed. 

 

On the note of season 2. Would it really work without Hannah? She was the whole catalyst for the show what would season 2 focus on. Tyler's school shooting plans? I don't know if it would work, but they seemed to have changed the ending so much from the book it feels like they are pushing for a season 2. ( I haven't read the book just based on what people told me).  

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7 minutes ago, ban1o said:

I would hope so. The guy was an asshole but I couldn't help but feel a little bad for him. I don't really think he was an inherently a bad person. It seemed his friendship with Bryce made him that way but he felt indebted to the guy because he was always there for him throughout his shitty family situation. 

Yes but there was also his constant not so subtle suggestions to physically attack Clay. Now I get it, he was clearly an abused kid with a shitty mother who kept having even shittier boyfriends who clearly physically abused him. But it didn't make him any less of a little asshole and a violent one at that.

Honestly, I couldn't understand where Justin's seeming hatred and rage towards Clay, right from the start, came from. It was almost like he resented Clay for, in a sense, getting off easy on the tapes with Hannah basically saying that Clay really didn't belong on them because at the end of it all, he really was just a genuinely nice guy.

For some reason that seemed to just enrage Justin. His whole, "you're not that innocent" to Clay when Clay was looking at Hannah's locker before poor Clay even knew the tapes existed, complete with seething hatred was really over the top. Though Clay's, "do you even know my name", was kind of hilarious. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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26 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes but there was also his constant not so subtle suggestions to physically attack at Clay. Now I get it, he's clearly an abused kid with a shitty mother who keeps having even shittier boyfriends who clearly physically abuse him. But it didn't make him less of a little asshole. Honestly, I couldn't understand Justin's seeming hatred and rage towards Clay, right from the start. It's like he resented Clay for in a sense getting off easy on the tapes with Hannah basically saying that he really didn't belong there because at the end of it all, he really was a genuinely nice guy. For some reason that seemed to just enrage Justin. His whole, "you're not that innocent" to Clay when he was looking at Hannah's locker before poor Clay even knew the tapes existed, complete with seething hatred was really over the top. Though Clay's, "do you even know my name", was kind of hilarious. 

lol Justin's hatred and obsession of Clay was so weird. And yeah his suggestion to kill him was so OTT.  Was it supposed to be a joke because it was ridiculous.

I think at that point he was scared of people figuring out it was true because he was telling people it was lies. Also Clay's tapes right before Bryce's who they were all trying to protect. And Clay had the least defamatory tape so they were afraid when he got through the tapes he would report it or tell someone. 

I agree he is 100% an asshole Like I would rank him a little bit below Courtney and Marcus on an "asshole list"  but I still felt bad for him. 

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8 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes but there was also his constant not so subtle suggestions to physically attack Clay. Now I get it, he was clearly an abused kid with a shitty mother who kept having even shittier boyfriends who clearly physically abused him. But it didn't make him any less of a little asshole and a violent one at that.

Honestly, I couldn't understand where Justin's seeming hatred and rage towards Clay, right from the start, came from. It was almost like he resented Clay for, in a sense, getting off easy on the tapes with Hannah basically saying that Clay really didn't belong on them because at the end of it all, he really was just a genuinely nice guy.

For some reason that seemed to just enrage Justin. His whole, "you're not that innocent" to Clay when Clay was looking at Hannah's locker before poor Clay even knew the tapes existed, complete with seething hatred was really over the top. Though Clay's, "do you even know my name", was kind of hilarious. 

Oh yeah, I totally agree with this. Justin's hatred toward Clay definitely feels like it stems from pure jealousy. Which is why I feel weird for feeling sorry for him at all and actually wanting to watch more of his arc. I feel dirty for being even somewhat supportive of this asshole, who has led the charge on some of the actions against Clay. But this show has completely surprised me with how easy it is to feel sympathetic to even this guy. Plus, the actor was actually really good. I'm surprised this is his first major role, and only second role total. 

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On 4/2/2017 at 9:45 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Finally, I have to head to the Book thread because I feel like there were a number of things in the series that weren't in the book. Because I read the book years ago and a rarity for me, I didn't remember much about it after, other than Hannah left tapes and there were these 13 reasons why she killed herself. I know she ended up liking Clay and his tape turned out to be different than the others but I didn't really remember anything more than that, other than when I was done, feeling like I actually didn't get why she killed herself.

Like not to minimize someone's pain but that the things she mentioned just didn't seem that big and I can't imagine I would have thought that if she'd been raped. I feel like I remembered reading the book and coming away thinking that her main reason for killing herself seemed to be that she felt like most of the people on the list didn't care enough or see her enough. So it's possible that I just completely blanked out on the story and don't remember the book very well at all or the series added some major things that weren't in the book. 

I just read the part of the book with Hannah and Bryce for myself. (I hope this is fine to post here rather than the book thread; I'm going to talk about both a little bit.)

Basically: Hannah was raped. However, the book portrayal seems a lot less explicit to me than the show portrayal of the rape. If you first read the book, like I did, when you were younger and had less of an understanding of consent, you might not have seen it as rape. I don't think I did. I don't even think Hannah did.

What she says in the book is: "For everyone listening, let me be clear. I did not say no or push his hand away. All I did was turn my head, clench my teeth, and fight back tears. And he saw that. He even told me to relax." She talks about "giving in to [her] reputation" and such throughout, but she doesn't consent and repeatedly describes these clear non-verbals. I think she was very conflicted about how to classify what happened, and I think to some extent that was also the case on the show. Like, on the show I think she clearly knew that she hadn't wanted it (that she "didn't make a decision") and that it was wrong, but she may have been struggling to label it as rape, which is very common for survivors.

I think it's good that the show makes this more explicit. I remember after I read the books, I read some reviews that mentioned how nothing that happened to Hannah actually seemed like "that big a deal" or whatever. By the time I read the book, I had been sexually assaulted, but I didn't tell anyone and was actively trying to repress it, relabel it, deny it, whatever, and I read those reviews with a mindset of, "Okay, no big deal." (I remember one review in particular that said, "with the exception of what happened in chapter nine," which was the part with Jessica's rape, but what happened to Hannah wasn't seen the same way.)

I really liked the way the show portrayed Hannah's reasons. Like I think it made it both clear and understandable how much these things hurt her-- all of them, not just the ones someone might label as "major." As much as I liked the book, and I did really like the book, I think I like the show more.

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1 hour ago, Ikki said:

If you first read the book, like I did, when you were younger and had less of an understanding of consent, you might not have seen it as rape.

Thanks for the quote. Age and understanding of consent was definitely not the issue for me. For whatever reason, maybe it was the quality of writing of the book, I just didn't really connect with it as much as I thought I would and I honestly didn't remember much of anything about it. Honestly, I wasn't even sure a character called Bryce even existed. I've considered re-reading the book since watching the series because I really enjoyed the series. So it's possible I may connect to the book better this time. 

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On 4/3/2017 at 11:42 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Oh yeah, I totally agree with this. Justin's hatred toward Clay definitely feels like it stems from pure jealousy. Which is why I feel weird for feeling sorry for him at all and actually wanting to watch more of his arc. I feel dirty for being even somewhat supportive of this asshole, who has led the charge on some of the actions against Clay. But this show has completely surprised me with how easy it is to feel sympathetic to even this guy. Plus, the actor was actually really good. I'm surprised this is his first major role, and only second role total. 

Same here. I can't believe I was sympathizing with him, in the last two episodes. I also think his hatred of Clay stemmed from jealousy - not that a guy like that would admit it (at least at that age). 

After the last episode, and finding out that a friend of mine had made it through five episodes, I sent her a message telling her she might want to be careful with the last four episodes - that was brutal, and I've never been through what Jessica and Hannah endured. 

*edited. Sorry, it's too personal. 

I don't know if I'd want a season two. The adults now know what happened. I don't want to possibly sit through a school shooting. I read part of a book on Columbine, a couple of years ago, and I was a mess. 

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On 2 April 2017 at 0:06 PM, Calamity Jane said:

Watched 'em all - reminiscent of American Crime Story season about a rape in a high school, with a dash of It's a Wonderful Life, plus every teen drama ever made, deeply moving in some places, oddly irritating in others, but it was impossible to take my eyes off of.  I can agree with reviewers who think it was too long - so much filler and so much of poor old Clay staring bemusedly into the distance, but it was completely addictive.  Although the door is open for Season 2, I don't know if I would watch it.  Without Hannah, the others are not sympathetic enough to keep me going for 13 hours, all of Clay's positive qualities notwithstanding.  Maybe I'll care more about the unresolved issues left after I've had time to process it all more.  I'm glad I'm retired so I could watch straight through.  

Glad I'm not the only one who struggled with the pacing at times.....I really found the storty compelling but every now and then I was driven crazy by pacing....like Clay taking 30 seconds to turn the tape over???  Nitpicking I know but binging over 13 episodes it stands out so much more.  

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34 minutes ago, BellyLaughter said:

Glad I'm not the only one who struggled with the pacing at times.....I really found the storty compelling but every now and then I was driven crazy by pacing....like Clay taking 30 seconds to turn the tape over???  Nitpicking I know but binging over 13 episodes it stands out so much more.  

This is one of the things I'd get annoyed at Clay at. I genuinely thought the show as a whole was really good and interesting, but goodness was Clay slow and draggy... I know it's not his fault, it's just the pacing but I got annoyed nonetheless. For example, he keeps on asking others what happens next, why etc. and I'd be restraining myself from yelling at the screen for him to just go through the tapes, and get the answers himself. It is funny though, how some of the other characters even told him to do just that.

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16 minutes ago, Wizhuzhu said:

This is one of the things I'd get annoyed at Clay at. I genuinely thought the show as a whole was really good and interesting, but goodness was Clay slow and draggy... I know it's not his fault, it's just the pacing but I got annoyed nonetheless. For example, he keeps on asking others what happens next, why etc. and I'd be restraining myself from yelling at the screen for him to just go through the tapes, and get the answers himself. It is funny though, how some of the other characters even told him to do just that.

I don't know, I don't think I could take listening to 13 hours of my friend talking about the reasons she wanted to kill herself without shutting it off here and there. It's just too much. And, not everything Hannah had to say was the whole truth. I think it was actually smart of Clay to go ask other people their POV so he could get a better picture of it all.

Plus, these were Hannah's last words. I don't think he wanted to disrespect her memory by breezing through to the end just to find out what happened, like everyone else seemed to do, but he really wanted to understand what happened. So, yeah, I didn't have a problem with Clay taking so long to listen to the tapes. I think it would've taken me longer to do it if I were in his shoes, myself.

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On 4/1/2017 at 3:57 PM, ban1o said:

Yeah I've been thinking something similar. Also the suicide scene was just so graphic... I don't know how someone contemplating suicide would react to it. I almost feel like it romanticizes suicide in a way. They should have made it clear she had other options and what those were. 

The cast and crew were also very conscious of this.

From an interview with Dylan Minnette (Clay):

Quote

Minnette added “We are not glorifying these acts. By forcing you to watch, by forcing you to flinch and feel heartbroken and devastated and disturbed … The only way to do it is to break your heart because that’s real life.”

It didn't have any sad soundtrack, weird fades, and didn't cut away from the painful aspects to make it look beautiful. It was just quiet, harsh, and Clay specifically narrates that she died alone. I think for some people in that mental state, there are no other options. She took her counselor visit as her last option and he let her down. I thought it was a well-done scene and while I wanted to look away, I felt I would be doing the character an injustice somehow. They did a good job at making hard to watch scenes that force you to understand and not just turn away like some of the characters do in this show.

What an impactful story. It really makes you evaluate how you treat others and has been the best illustration I've seen yet of how the smallest thing can affect things in the biggest way.

@Anela Thank you for sharing your story. After watching this show, it's not really easy to know what to say, but just know you have someone that's rooting for you here.

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On 4/3/2017 at 11:31 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Honestly, I couldn't understand where Justin's seeming hatred and rage towards Clay, right from the start, came from. It was almost like he resented Clay for, in a sense, getting off easy on the tapes with Hannah basically saying that Clay really didn't belong on them because at the end of it all, he really was just a genuinely nice guy.

Much of the supporting characters' behavior and words to Clay in the first 10 episodes made little sense, because they were designed to create confusion and anticipation about what was going to be on Clay's tape. If you go back and review the things they said to him, knowing what you do now about his tape, it's mostly nonsense (especially where Tony is concerned). Very sloppy work from the creators. Red herrings and misdirection are part of any mystery, but the smart way to do it is to have interactions loaded with ambiguity, not outright bs that falls apart in retrospect.

Frankly, the fact that Hannah would let Clay believe she blamed him for her death for 11 tapes was more than a little cruel, considering how she felt about him. Though I think that may have been more of a pacing problem...

1 hour ago, BellyLaughter said:

Glad I'm not the only one who struggled with the pacing at times.....I really found the storty compelling but every now and then I was driven crazy by pacing....like Clay taking 30 seconds to turn the tape over???  Nitpicking I know but binging over 13 episodes it stands out so much more.  

 

37 minutes ago, Wizhuzhu said:

This is one of the things I'd get annoyed at Clay at. I genuinely thought the show as a whole was really good and interesting, but goodness was Clay slow and draggy... I know it's not his fault, it's just the pacing but I got annoyed nonetheless. For example, he keeps on asking others what happens next, why etc. and I'd be restraining myself from yelling at the screen for him to just go through the tapes, and get the answers himself. It is funny though, how some of the other characters even told him to do just that.

The fact that it took so long for Clay to listen to the tapes, and that he essentially had a mental breakdown while doing so, makes Hannah seem cruel to him in ways that I don't think were intended. My understanding is that he listened to them all right away in the book, but that the show needed to stretch it out to fit their episodic format. There were some consequences of that choice that didn't seem all that well-considered, and many of them changed the way I saw the characters. They could've easily cut at least three episodes and made the story a lot tighter and kept the characterizations a little more intact.

All that said, I liked this show and think there was some really great stuff underneath the unfortunate structural choices. Clay and Hannah were wonderful characters (played by very impressive actors), and the show managed to explore the small (and massive) cruelties teenagers endure and inflict on each other in a way that felt very true. Hannah's story was all too familiar while still feeling singular to her particular experience. And for that reason, I really hope they won't do a season 2. 

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On 4/3/2017 at 11:42 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Oh yeah, I totally agree with this. Justin's hatred toward Clay definitely feels like it stems from pure jealousy. Which is why I feel weird for feeling sorry for him at all and actually wanting to watch more of his arc. I feel dirty for being even somewhat supportive of this asshole, who has led the charge on some of the actions against Clay. But this show has completely surprised me with how easy it is to feel sympathetic to even this guy. Plus, the actor was actually really good. I'm surprised this is his first major role, and only second role total. 

I so agree. I hated Justin and totally bled for him. This kid had no tools to deal with this shit.

3 hours ago, Anela said:

Same here. I can't believe I was sympathizing with him, in the last two episodes. I also think his hatred of Clay stemmed from jealousy - not that a guy like that would admit it (at least at that age). 

After the last episode, and finding out that a friend of mine had made it through five episodes, I sent her a message telling her she might want to be careful with the last four episodes - that was brutal, and I've never been through what Jessica and Hannah endured. 

I have been suicidal, and the way she did it was similar to the way I planned. Only I was going to leave the shower running, so there wouldn't be a big mess. I can't believe I'm talking about this part. I'll probably edit it out. 

I don't know if I'd want a season two. The adults now know what happened. I don't want to possibly sit through a school shooting. I read part of a book on Columbine, a couple of years ago, and I was a mess. 

Anela, thank you for sharing this with us. Edit it out, if you want, but I just want you to know I read it. I'm glad you're still here. 

I'm with you on a season two. While I'm pretty attached to Clay, I don't/can't imagine a season two without Hannah. She was *the* reason. 

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I think I should clarify that my issues with the pacing weren't over the fact that he took his time to listen to the tapes it was more in the standing around starring, taking an eternity to respond to other characters, the deliberately methodical way they had him handle the tapes....it's extreme nitpicking I know but at times it really took me out of the moment.  

As for Clay taking his time to listen to the tapes....that I am more sympathetic about. 

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I binge watched this series and thought it did drag a bit in spots, however; the final episode did well and left it open for a second series with Tyler continuing to be the total creep show. He and Bryce were the worst - Tyler continued to see himself as a victim and downplay his role in anything, while Bryce was obviously just an abhorrent human.

The suicide scene was horrible and I had to ffwd through it. The anguish of the parents was gutwrenching and well done on behalf of those actors.

And finally, after a visit to Wikipedia, I learned that Dylan Minnette and Liam James are not the same person, as I originally thought.

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3 hours ago, stagmania said:

My understanding is that he listened to them all right away in the book, but that the show needed to stretch it out to fit their episodic format.

Yeah he listened to them all the first night but he still had to wait hours to find out what he could have done because he was number 11 in the book. So that was basically ten hours of listening before he had an answer regarding himself and his actions towards Hannah. 

By the way, considering how heavy the series was, I was grateful for the few light-hearted moments, like a number of Clay's scenes with Jeff. I especially loved the "unique" scene, where Jeff just couldn't seem to get why using the word repeatedly to describe things, was redundant. That was funny. I also loved the scene when Tony told Clay he was gay. That whole sequence cracked me up. 

I sort of liked how the show wasn't verbalizing it for a number of episodes but not so subtly making it clear that Tony was gay. But I cracked up when Tony went, "Clay, you know I'm gay right" when Clay asked if he was in love with Hannah and Clay's response was, "why would I know that?" And when Tony asked him if he thought he used to just hang out with Ryan as friends and Clay shrugs, saying, "I guess..."

On the one hand, I guess you could say it kind of spoke to Clay's cluelessness and lack of observation skills, evidenced by some of his interactions with Hannah. But on the other hand, I kind of like that he didn't make assumptions. Like in his mind, why shouldn't Tony hang out with Ryan and that doing so didn't mean he was gay. Still, the number of times he spoke to Tony with what was obviously his boyfriend there, really makes Clay seem either very clueless or that self absorbed at times. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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5 hours ago, BellyLaughter said:

I think I should clarify that my issues with the pacing weren't over the fact that he took his time to listen to the tapes it was more in the standing around starring, taking an eternity to respond to other characters, the deliberately methodical way they had him handle the tapes....it's extreme nitpicking I know but at times it really took me out of the moment.  

As for Clay taking his time to listen to the tapes....that I am more sympathetic about. 

Oh that got to me too...I mean, I can understand why they made him do these things, but I can't help myself from feeling like, "Okay can you hurry up please." Quite impatient I guess.

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I think those things were worse if you were binge watching the show like I did and sounds like many in the thread did. I do think having the other characters' perspectives, e.g. Justin, Jessica, etc. while Clay was having his emotional journey to get through the tapes, helped make the series not drag too much.

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And finally, after a visit to Wikipedia, I learned that Dylan Minnette and Liam James are not the same person, as I originally thought.

I had been wondering if Logan Lerman was ever going to grow out of teen roles until I realized that Dylan Minnette had seamlessly stepped into his place.

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I really liked this series.  I think it is weighing more heavily on me and I can't stop thinking about it because I started watching it on the three year anniversary of the day that a friend of my daughter's took her own life because she was bullied.  I didn't deliberately start it that same day, but once I realized it was the same day it just made me it so much more poignant.  I am also friendly with her mother, and the way that her daughter's suicide has completely destroyed her and her family made me weep openly every time they showed Hannah's mother.  I thought the acting was great- for the most part.  I changed my opinion of several characters throughout the episodes, and I think that is a real testament to the young actors.  I really liked Clay because he was totally the type of boy I would've crushed on hard in high school.   

I think a season 2 is a stretch, but I'll watch it anyway to see where these characters go.

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8 hours ago, BellyLaughter said:

I think I should clarify that my issues with the pacing weren't over the fact that he took his time to listen to the tapes it was more in the standing around starring, taking an eternity to respond to other characters, the deliberately methodical way they had him handle the tapes....it's extreme nitpicking I know but at times it really took me out of the moment.  

As for Clay taking his time to listen to the tapes....that I am more sympathetic about. 

Yeah, I am sympathetic to Clay's reasons for taking his time. My issue with the pacing is more about what it necessitated from the other characters to pad out the time, and how it reflected back on Hannah.

27 minutes ago, GenL said:

I really liked this series.  I think it is weighing more heavily on me and I can't stop thinking about it because I started watching it on the three year anniversary of the day that a friend of my daughter's took her own life because she was bullied.  I didn't deliberately start it that same day, but once I realized it was the same day it just made me it so much more poignant.  I am also friendly with her mother, and the way that her daughter's suicide has completely destroyed her and her family made me weep openly every time they showed Hannah's mother.  I thought the acting was great- for the most part.  I changed my opinion of several characters throughout the episodes, and I think that is a real testament to the young actors.  I really liked Clay because he was totally the type of boy I would've crushed on hard in high school.   

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's friend. I thought the show did an amazing job of showing the wreckage Hannah left behind, particularly for her parents. I hope no young people will walk away from this show with a romanticized idea of suicide; it seems that they really tried to make the audience feel how much it hurt everyone involved.

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