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S07.E15: Something They Need

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Then I guess TPTB can finally claim to have (finally) produced a successful episode this season. We are actually talking about it rather than laughing/rolling our eyes/snarking about it.

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One more episode and we can escape this terrible half season. Surely next half-season will be better. It has to be, right?

Right?

GOOD

  • They got the guns from Plot Device Village and now hopefully we never have to see it or the trash people again. The books this series is based off are full of weird plotlines and questionable developments, and generally the show has done a competent and at times even admirable job shifting them slightly or fleshing them out. However, when they are left to create characters and situations out of whole cloth, they tend to fall flat on their ass. Their early success with Daryl went to their heads, perhaps, or they suffered talent bleed. Both the Junkyard and Fishing People have been colossal missteps. Dull, poorly acted, off-tone, and very obviously worthless filler.
  • I still like Eugene. He does well in his scenes.
  • Some of the zombie makeup was high quality stuff. They put a lot of care and attention into those zombie looks for 0.5 seconds on screen. Let's hear it for the FX crew.
  • Dwight has finally begun his incredibly predictable turncoat arc after 2-3 seasons of dithering. 

BAD

  • The village is as terrible as I remembered it. I know we're supposed to feel sorry for these people and/or question Alexandria's behavior, but these are such one dimensional and poorly written "characters" it's impossible to get invested. Their brutality towards Tara in the previous episode and senseless xenophobia regarding 'outsiders' renders them cartoonish. The Grandmother was the worst of the lot, and poorly acted in the bargain. These aren't complex people making flawed decisions, they're hastily written archetypes dropped into a padded out narrative to create plot points and "drama". The whole thing has been incredibly tedious from start to finish and ate two episodes worth of screen time that could have been spent advancing meaningful storylines or developing interesting characters.
  • I feel like I beat her up after every episode she's in but Alanna Masterson completely lost track of and/or interest in this character a season or two ago and has been almost unwatchable since it happened. Tara's scenes are ATROCIOUS. When an episode relies on her the way this one did it breaks down badly.
  • Sasha still being alive is pointless. Sorry, Sasha fans but she has been in character limbo for a long time now while the writers try to figure out what to do with her. A brave/stupid death maybe wasn't the most interesting or satisfying denouement, but at least it closed the book on her. Alas, now she's back. Fah.
  • They really need to be careful with their angles/lighting on JDM. From the wrong perspectives he looks every bit his age, and any air of menace the actor is working to cultivate gets completely lost.
  • I feel like if they had the armory completely surrounded they could have just walked in and taken the guns and walked away and not bothered with all this nonsense involving bombs and treetop snipers and hostage situations. Yeah I know it's a placeholder episode and they're trying to stir up some excitement, but the whole thing was just shot and framed so lazily. It seems absurd.

So we've now had about 20+ episodes of extremely protracted, poorly conceived and terribly executed setup for the Saviors arc to finally rev into gear and conflict to ensue. I really hope it was worth the wait. Depending on how this show manages its budget we might end up with a couple of grandiose set pieces and a lot of aimless sideplots to eat up the other 8 episodes worth of air time.

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19 minutes ago, BloatedGuppy said:

I feel like I beat her up after every episode she's in but Alanna Masterson completely lost track of and/or interest in this character a season or two ago and has been almost unwatchable since it happened. Tara's scenes are ATROCIOUS. When an episode relies on her the way this one did it breaks down badly.

All too sadly true. "Atrocious" is the word.

19 minutes ago, BloatedGuppy said:

They really need to be careful with their angles/lighting on JDM. From the wrong perspectives he looks every bit his age,

He's only 50, I believe, but his starvation movie-role diet played hell with his looks and aged him terribly. I thought he looked as though he may have gained a couple of pounds, but he needs a lot more. Someone start force-feeding him lard sandwiches with that really good bread they have at the Sanctuary.

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I agree Tara is just as bad if not worse than Rosita. Characters just don't have the chops to carry off scenes. These two make you either laugh, roll your eyes, or both.

Daryl is just as bad, he has no sense of urgency to go get Sasha or Rosita when he was talking to Jesus. Didn't bother to tell Rick and others about it either. Daryl is just useless. Then there's Rosita just calmly back at Alexandria without a worry on her face about Sasha. Does she care about anyone at all? Her reactions to Sasha, Olivia, Eugene are just a joke. Don't know why directors aren't trying hard enough to get Rosita to be an entertaining character. Writers can't write for shit with Daryl.

Let's trade, kill off Rosita, Tara, and Daryl and gives us Cyndie, the woman who is with Oceanside with the short hair, and bring Glenn back to life. They can write a very dumb stupid reason for Glenn returning from death. I would turn a blind eye.

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If Rick had the brains of a duck, he might hear about this secret island community and say to himself: "Yeah, there's an idea. Just pick an island somewhere and hide." 

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The Stargate ep I was watching during the commercials was better than this.  What has happened to the WD?

The last two eps were of the quality of FTWD and that's not good.

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Anybody else think Gregory might have benefited from wearing his brown suit today?  Or the brown pants, at least.  :>

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I have the replay of the show on in the background. Admittedly, I am not paying full attention, but I am trying to watch the plundering of Oceanside with neutral eyes...and I still can't get to the "Rick is right" side.

I picture myself as a resident there. An armed group comes in, has us on our knees, offers us a no win scenario after saying "this is about what you have, what we need" then tells us that we lose our main means of protecting ourselves no matter what option we choose (and one of these options is all out war leading to the certain death of even more of my people). I am inclined to view this group as the enemy. I am also inclined to think that, if I am coerced into going to war for these people, that I may start to plan my own long con...and eventually overthrow these dictators.

...and so the cycle continues. Now, I am the problem.

What an ugly scenario. And I keep coming back to the prison, when we still had Herschel and Glenn, and a governing committee. "This is not who we are" resonates with me...even though when CDB lived by these rules they became victims themselves.

And so we have circled back again. Really ugly. But I still liked Prison CDB the best. The CDB of this episode...I don't really care if they live or die. (and I was actually screaming at Grandma to "shoot that ungrateful thing in the face!"when she had the gun on Tara,  so I don't have any moral high ground here at all! :)

Edited by shanndee · Reason: spelling!
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45 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

If Rick's group loses (which won't happen because they are in the credits), then Oceanside has no weapons to defend themselves.  No one in this ZA is innocent, but I'm sure Negan and his followers can come up with all sorts of reasons why they do what they do.  It doesn't make it right.  Saviors, Terminus, Governor, Rick's group, whoever.  They can tell themselves they are nothing like the Saviors right up to the point where they are.

This was my problem with it. They couldn't leave them with a couple of empty guns in the name of goodwill for a potential ally? Yes, they need firearms, and lots of them, to fight the Saviors. Given how outnumbered they are, however, it's going to take A LOT more than guns to prevail. If two or three fewer makes the difference between victory and defeat, they might want to rethink their strategy.

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Rachel RSL:

I feel like I was watching an entirely different group of people this week. Rick talks the ear off the leader of every new community he comes across, but suddenly, this episode he just goes in with bombs and guns? No long ass story about a rock or anything? Since when is that their M.O.? What did I miss there?

 

I agree. I understand what the writers were getting at, but the way they went about it just really felt out of character. It's like the writers are changing characters as needed to get the plot from A to B instead of letting them be who they are and arriving at the same destination organically. Instead of being provocative, it comes across as lazy writing.

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And on a superficial note: Why does Daryl look like he hasn't washed his hair in 15 years but Jesus always looks like he just got a blow out at the salon?

LOL! Maybe the blacksmith fashioned a flat iron for Jesus. ;)

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Okay Negan actually wasn't annoying this time.  Oceanside seemed pretty formidable the first time we saw it.  This time all CDB had to do was take out a couple of security guards and presto, conquered community.  Eh..ok.  And so the season continues to plod along.  At least all the pieces are finally in place for a showdown.

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Yes, there were people at the prison who said "This is not who we are." But Rick went ahead and did whatever crazy thing he felt like anyway. This would bother me less if the show runners seemed like they understood that, nowadays, Rick is an antihero, not a hero. He's not  "dark and violent, but always good," like Batman. He's "crazy and random and does violent shit, but fortunately just happens to be a pain in the ass to even worse people," like Lobo. I'm fine with a story about an antihero, as long as you're not doing this preachy tone that, just because his name is first in the credits, he has to get some kind of extra credit on his morality.

Edited by CletusMusashi
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Ohhhh. This would be such a different (better!) show if Rick was presented as antihero! I could totally get on board with that. But I don't trust TPTB to see that potential.

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2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I wanted Rick to force Dwight to his knees and then shoot him in the head.  The Rickettes will steal from Oceanside, but they won't just straight up kill Dwight when they should.  Apparently, the idiot writers are going to try and redeem Dwight which means a character I like (Sasha, Maggie, Carol, Aaron, Eric or the Tiger) will get killed, and idiot Dwight will still be there.

 Why should they straight up kill Dwight? They want to fight the Saviors and Dwight was pretty high up in the ranks with Negan. It makes no sense to kill him when they can use him for info

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 I wonder how this episode would have played if I cared.

Anyway, I'm not buying into Tyson's Dwight's redemption.   Negan boasted to Sasha that "a little birdy" told him Rick is up to no good and something would have to be done about that.   Seems plausible that he might order Dwight to mosey over to Alexandria, pretend to be a traitor, and lead CDB into a setup. 

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I really hope the next doctor they drag back to the Saviors is a chiropractor. Maybe he can help with Negan's back problem.  There is something particularly off-putting about a smiling man talking about rape while leaning in a way to push his penis forward. 

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2 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

They can write a very dumb stupid reason for Glenn returning from death. I would turn a blind eye.

So would Glenn - didn't Lucille pop one of his peepers out of his skull?

This episode was all over the place, and obviously intended to set the stage for a season finale that will leave us gasping and breathless with anticipation for the October return of our mighty warriors.

I'm thoroughly tired of almost everyone in this show now.  I could barely understand most of Maggie's dialogue. What was the deal with the explosions at Oceanside?  Remember Rick's arrival at Alexandria, when he told the population in a very loud voice that they should all be quiet, as noise attracted walkers?  Was he setting off blasts outside the Oceanside perimeter to bring it on so he could use it as an object lesson for the women?  Or is he just clueless?

The whole Sasha thing was just weird.  Does she really want to off herself, or does she just want Eugene to open the door?

I'd almost forgive the writers, if they had let Granny shoot Tara.  With an honorable mention to having Michonne miss Granny and hit Tara.  I'm not particular.  Just No More Tara!  She is dangerous to my tooth enamel.

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So, Negan's down with basically forcing women to marry him, but is still anti-rape, somehow.  That is a hell of a contradiction, right there.  I'm starting to think he might have actually been a politician, before the world went to hell.

Anyway, turns out Sasha isn't dead, but was captured (they kept talking about it being a shitshow, but just how many of them she managed to get?), and Negan did his stupid speech and mind game shit, where basically Sasha having to kill Walker "Rapey Davey", somehow means Negan "won" or some shit.  Of course, Sasha still wants to kill him and asks Eugene for a weapon under the guise that she wants to kill herself, but instead of giving her a weapon, Eugene just give her one of his poison pills.  Sigh.....

Meanwhile, Tara finally tells Rick about Oceanside, so they go over to negotiate with them.  Wait, sorry.  That's what I had assume was going to happen.  Instead, they pretty much came over there, held them all at gunpoint and said "Hey, we're going to take all of your weapons no matter what, although now that you have no options, why don't you join us?  We could use the red shirts... I mean, bodies!"  That might not be a Negan move, but that's still a major dick move.  I get the show is trying to show how desperate they are getting, but they honestly seem indifferent about this.  Even characters I would think would have protest; like Gabriel and Michonne; were surprisingly mute.  Can't believe I'm saying this, but a situation like this could have used Morgan questioning them.  And they seriously needed every damn gun?  Couldn't leave them a few?  Rick might be trying to no longer be "Negan's bitch", but frankly, he's kind of becoming Jadis' instead.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why this show seems to be trying to make Alanna Masterson the next big thing.  I normally don't mind her or Tara, but every time she gets focus, it is just so obvious that she is out of her depth.

Only thing I was kind of interested in was Maggie and Gregory, and seeing how pathetic and much of a liar Gregory is, but even then, that's all because of Xander Berkeley.

Can't believe we are so close to the end of the season, and yet I give so few shits about what happens or who lives.  Apparently, when Negan smashed Glenn and Abraham's brains in, he also smashed all of the interest out of this show as well.

Edited by thuganomics85
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1 hour ago, spiderpig said:

What was the deal with the explosions at Oceanside?  Remember Rick's arrival at Alexandria, when he told the population in a very loud voice that they should all be quiet, as noise attracted walkers?  Was he setting off blasts outside the Oceanside perimeter to bring it on so he could use it as an object lesson for the women?  Or is he just clueless?

Not to mention using a zillion bullets they could have saved for using against the Saviors.  Those walkers showed up awfully quickly for an area that's supposedly been well cleared.  

Had to snicker when Tara once again flipped off that bratty little murder child.

Edited by GreyBunny
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2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, Negan's down with basically forcing women to marry him, but is still anti-rape, somehow.  That is a hell of a contradiction, right there.

I'm starting to think he doesn't actually have sex with his wives unless it's their choice.  That might be why he's anti-rape.

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1 hour ago, GreyBunny said:

Not to mention using a zillion bullets they could have saved for using against the Saviors.  Those walkers showed up awfully quickly for an area that's supposedly been well cleared.  

Had to snicker when Tara once again flipped off that bratty little murder child.

The bullets thing really bothers me. Why would anyone use fully automatic fire in the ZA? It is very difficult to control your weapon and to stay on target with full auto. In a real war it's used more for suppression than actual killing, so it's effective. You can't suppress zombies, they don't care that they're being shot at. Since only a headshot will kill one, full auto only wastes ammo and lowers your chance of hitting your target. 

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In some way, I can live with what Rick did. First of all, he was at rock bottom. He had seen the worst of the worse. So, now if he sees a pile of guns, he's going to take them because if he leaves one behind, that might be the very gun that would have saved Carl's (or someone else's) life. Not logical in the light of day, but given what Rick has seen, I think it's plausible.

And don't forget: the beach women had every intention of killing Tara (and not just because of her acting). It's just that Tara got away (with help).

Also, as they were leaving, Rick asked Tara if she were okay. He knew his actions were extreme. That's very unlike Negan. I didn't see Negan turn to Simon as he was pounding Abraham into chipped liver and ask, "Am I going too far? Is this over-kill? Are the psychologists standing by to talk to the survivors?" To me, that's a big difference.

But yes, I would have preferred if Rick had left a few old rifles and revolvers behind. But, frankly, if I were in his shoes, knowing what I know about Negan, I'm not sure if I would have.

Edited by JackONeill
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Here the show goes again, making me hate my favorite characters. At this point, I hate everyone who isn't at Hilltop or the Kingdom. Words cannot express how gross and distasteful I found the Oceanside plan. Look, I agree that Negan needs to go. I see the big picture stuff. I'd hope that everyone else would too, and would agree to fight. But they have to AGREE. YOU don't get to just decide what "the greater good" is, for other people. And I find it really repugnant, and out of character, that CDB/ASZ would be okay with bombing a peaceful community (I know, I know, the bombs were outside) and taking away all their guns, leaving women and children defenseless. I know Rick has done some questionable things, but I cannot reconcile him being okay with that - or Michonne, or Gabriel, or Aaron and Erick. I mean, WTF, show??? 

Not only was this plan incredibly selfish and arrogant, but it was just stupid as well. They send Tara in to hold the leader hostage? TARA??? Of course she fucks it up. I saw that coming a mile away. 

And all their ruckus brings a herd of walkers down upon them, causing them to waste a shitload of bullets that would have been useful against those goshdarn Saviors. 

I just can't with these people. 

 

Meanwhile at Hilltop....Maggie is apparently this huge savior (no pun intended) because she's teaching them how to garden. Ummmm.....wasn't the Hilltop already gardening long before these bozos came along? I seem to recall ASZ starving and getting a shit ton of food from Hilltop in exchange for taking out Negan (which they failed at). Am I imagining things? I think they had their shit together just fine. 

Gregory is another issue. A leader who's never killed a walker? Bitch, please. He's totally going to try and hand Maggie over to Simon at some point. His ego just can't take it.  I don't think he hesitated on killing Maggie because he has a conscience or a good side. I just think he's a coward who doesn't like to get his hands dirty. Other people do the killing FOR him. (Hence hiring Rick and co.)

 

Sasha and Eugene were interesting. I give major props to Sonequa for her acting. She was the standout of the episode. I really bought her "journey" from accepting Negan's offer, to be coming suicidal....until I realized it was all one long con. Good for her. Fucking Eugene isn't running a long con. He's just trying to keep his pudgy ass safe. The only time I could see myself siding up with the bad guy would be to keep my kids safe. But I would rather die than be part of an operation that was causing harm to so many people. 

Oh, so rape is not okay at Casa de Savior? Anyone else have a hard time buying that? Negan bashes people's skulls in with baseball bats, he threatens to cut a kid's arm off, he throws doctors into the fire - but he won't condone rape? Oh wait...unless HE gets to do the raping. I mean, what does he think his little harem is? Those women aren't there willingly. They're "consenting" under duress. He's delusional if he doesn't think he's violating those women. 

And how long does it take to find a fucking t-shirt??? Savior dudes, please follow Negan's orders rapidly so we don't have to listen to his speechifying for more than 5 seconds. PLEASE. 

Anyhow, Sasha seemed a bit disappointed by the pill, no? It's going to be a lot harder to use than a gun or a knife. We'll see. But, of course, I do not expect this to be wrapped up next week. 

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7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:
6 hours ago, J----av said:

 Why should they straight up kill Dwight? They want to fight the Saviors and Dwight was pretty high up in the ranks with Negan. It makes no sense to kill him when they can use him for info

 I would not be surprised if Dwight is a double agent for Negan.

5 hours ago, millennium said:

 I wonder how this episode would have played if I cared.

Anyway, I'm not buying into Tyson's Dwight's redemption.   Negan boasted to Sasha that "a little birdy" told him Rick is up to no good and something would have to be done about that.   Seems plausible that he might order Dwight to mosey over to Alexandria, pretend to be a traitor, and lead CDB into a setup. 

All too sadly true. "Atrocious" is the word.

He's only 50, I believe, but his starvation movie-role diet played hell with his looks and aged him terribly. I thought he looked as though he may have gained a couple of pounds, but he needs a lot more. Someone start force-feeding him lard sandwiches with that really good bread they have at the Sanctuary.

I told my husband that I think he could pretty easily beat up Negan (my husband is not a giant MMA fighter type).  My husband is a good deal younger and has much better muscle tone.  I would never say my husband would be able to beat up Rick.  Even though Rick is not a huge guy, he is a tough scrapper.

The reason I bring this up, is that in the comic, Neagan is supposed to be a great big intimidating giant of a man.  You sort of understand why no one would want to mess with him.  He is not supposed to come off like a skinny cackling grand ma.

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Meanwhile at Hilltop....Maggie is apparently this huge savior (no pun intended) because she's teaching them how to garden. Ummmm.....wasn't the Hilltop already gardening long before these bozos came along? I seem to recall ASZ starving and getting a shit ton of food from Hilltop in exchange for taking out Negan (which they failed at). Am I imagining things? I think they had their shit together just fine. 

But then we would not have several minutes of precious screen time devoted to Maggie and her "Ellie Mae Clampett" southern accent talking about  "tarp don't tuuuch ".  The only point of those scenes is to show how incompetent and nasty Gregory is compared to Maggie, so we all say, "Wouldn't it  be great if Maggie is the leader".

We get it Gregory is awful, but please do not insult us that Maggie is mother earth, teaching an already successful farming community about "plants n such".

Edited by qtpye
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5 hours ago, spiderpig said:

The whole Sasha thing was just weird.  Does she really want to off herself, or does she just want Eugene to open the door?

She wanted a weapon, I'm guessing, to use against Negan, still. She's not going to cooperate with him, and she's not giving up, yet. But stupid Eugene just gave her the suicide pill, which she'll probably wind up using after all, as opposed to giving in to Negan.

2 hours ago, Vyk said:

I'm starting to think he doesn't actually have sex with his wives unless it's their choice.  That might be why he's anti-rape.

He's not anti rape. His entire ethos is about rape, but he might construe it somehow that since the women chose him over, you know, being murdered, that it's not rape. Those women are not there willingly, any time they might agree to sleep with him is for survival...it's rape.

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6 hours ago, J----av said:

 Why should they straight up kill Dwight? They want to fight the Saviors and Dwight was pretty high up in the ranks with Negan. It makes no sense to kill him when they can use him for info

I don't suppose Negan would trade Sasha for Dwight.  Or better yet, trade Sasha for Dwight AND Rosita.

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Only thing I was kind of interested in was Maggie and Gregory, and seeing how pathetic and much of a liar Gregory is, but even then, that's all because of Xander Berkeley.

It's really glaring what a better actor Berkeley is than 99% of the cast.

Can someone remind me who we are supposed to be rooting for?  Without Glenn's and Hershel's humanity CDB is no longer the beacon of hope.  I get that not always choosing to do "right" makes Rick and Co more complex, but stealing from a bunch of women (not necessarily helpless women) is just plain wrong.  Rick took "no" for an answer from Hilltop and the Kingdom and walked away, but faced with a community of women he bullies and threatens them into turning over all their guns.  So now he'll turn around and give those guns to Jadis and her group without any idea what the GPKs will do with them?  How does this make any sense?

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2 hours ago, Vyk said:

I'm starting to think he doesn't actually have sex with his wives unless it's their choice.  That might be why he's anti-rape.

But in that situation, how could they ever feel like they have a choice?

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Sasha goes on a suicide mission to kill Negan, and he gives her a giant knife and is kneeling right next to her- and she does nothing.... give me a freaking break. She could have easily overpowered skinny ass Negan, and caught him off guard while he was crouching down in front of her ( kinda hard to raise and swing a baseball bat against someone that close, while kneeling). 

I knew that damn suicide pill would come back ! 

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There have been the occasional nice moment or clever set piece along the way, but this really has been one of the worst seasons of television I have ever seen.  It's such a bummer.  The first two seasons of this show are rough but promising, and seasons 3 - 6 I truly loved... though thinking of it now, I see the cracks appearing.  They were minor enough that they were easily ignored, but now it's like the whole house suddenly collapsed... the cracks I dismissed as cosmetic were attacking the foundation this whole time.

I don't know how the show comes back from this.  It's not just that the story they're telling is bad, but also that they have forgotten how to tell a story effectively.  This season has mostly become a collection of overwrought and overwritten speeches, as if the show could be made more dramatic simply by increasing the quantity of words spoken.  Numerous episodes were granted extended running times for solo stories that would have more appropriately been used as C story subplots.  These writers are desperately in need of reminding that LESS IS MORE.

I've never read any of the comics, but this season I have constantly thought to myself: "I see how this would be great in a comic, but it doesn't work on screen, for obvious reasons that anyone with any experience in TV should be able to immediately grasp."  One of the most disheartening portents for the future of the show is to read any press on it, where it always sounds like the creators think any complaints are people just not getting the Wonderful Artistic Integrity of torturing the characters and audience, to make the eventual triumph all the more satisfying.  This is an idea that is difficult to pull off, but It could have been made to work -- if every subsequent execution decision had not been wrong.  I can get on board with the what they're aiming for conceptually, what I can't get on board with is unearned character motivations, indulgent monologues, repetitive episodes, lugubrious pacing, and clunky structure.  This entire second half of the season could have been a masterpiece of careful plotting and slowly building tension as the plan to triumph over the Saviors was constructed.  Instead, there has been no plotting beyond "find guns", and everyone has just been wondering around monologuing and navel-gazing until, hey, enough time killed, it's the finale!

Anyway, one more to go.  If I hadn't already had 6 years into this show, I would have been gone around the 4th episode.  I hope the finale decisively closes the book on the Saviors and allows some version of fresh start for next year.  If it doesn't, I hope I have enough sense to resist the marketing bombardment and not come back to this show next October.

Edited by JyDanzig
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Of all the missions Eric chooses to spend quality time with A A Ron it's this one

I have a lot more to say but I need to put my thoughts together. I have been Team CDB no matter what and have always found a way to justify the things they have done but this one is going to take me a minute.

They forced Maggie and Glenn to live with Merle, no reason Daryl shouldn't be forced to live with Dwight if it's for the greater good.

I do believe over time just like the finale of Seinfeld, seasons 2, 4 and 7 will come to be appreciated.

Edited by Boofish
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Do the writers do these duller episodes before the big finale every year, so a really outstanding episode is even more exciting and interesting by comparison? With our expectations now fully dulled, we are ready to be wowed next week? I mean, seriously, is that the plan?

I think Eugene's reasoning and Negan's "no rape" policy is an attempt to make the audience see why this guy isn't killed in his sleep by one of the many, many other people living in there. There must be something that makes his brutishness to his own people worth it, and right now it makes zero sense, and I think the writers are trying harder now to explain it.  There has to be something that the Saviors themselves find redeeming about him. Where is his psychopathic charm? Or do the writers think his incredibly annoying way of speaking is charming?

Can't say I was surprised or even disappointed that Tara sold the Oceansiders out -- it's the ZA, so about par for the course. The "I should have killed you when I had the chance" line always turns out to be true no matter who speaks it.

Edited by Jel
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6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Rick might be trying to no longer be "Negan's bitch", but frankly, he's kind of becoming Jadis' instead.

Exactly!

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16 minutes ago, Boofish said:

They forced Maggie and Glenn to live with Merle, no reason Daryl shouldn't be forced to live with Dwight if it's for the greater good.

But Daryl is their mopey, special snowflake. HE'S the reason Glenn and Maggie had to live with Merle after what he did. Daryl is a 5-year-old who will pout until he gets his way. It clearly works for avoiding bath night. 

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1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

But Daryl is their mopey, special snowflake. HE'S the reason Glenn and Maggie had to live with Merle after what he did. Daryl is a 5-year-old who will pout until he gets his way. It clearly works for avoiding bath night. 

I get that but Daryl is also a fighter with little to no back talk and bird flipping. This man was willing to die for Rick, Michonne, Carl, Beth, Glenn, Hershel's farm, Carol, Rosita just to name a few. He can also survive off what he finds. I know he has fallen out of favor with most of the fans but if I only had one pick - his loyalty, skills and willingness to die for someone he loves makes him my top pick in the fantasy ZA team league.

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1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

But in that situation, how could they ever feel like they have a choice?

I'm sure the wives don't feel they have a choice, but Negan can tell himself they ARE choosing to have sex with him, merely because he's not actually holding them down. The fact that it's under extreme duress (I'd say yes too if I felt that refusal might result in my husband or son suffering or dying for it) is something that doesn't trouble him.

 

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

It's really glaring what a better actor Berkeley is than 99% of the cast.

 So glaring I nearly reached for my sunglasses. It's embarassing. AL can be a truly amazing, impressive actor when he's called upon to be crazy or despairing or intimidating. BUT when he's being any other way, e.g. trying to give fatherly talks to Carl or be seductive/romantic/sexy with any woman? Good lord, it's Cringe City out there.

 

1 hour ago, Juliegirlj said:

Sasha goes on a suicide mission to kill Negan, and he gives her a giant knife and is kneeling right next to her- and she does nothing

 I guess it's only after he took it away that she thought about killing him even though her mission was to go there and kill him (??) so has this loud argument and begging session through the door imploring Eugene to bring another knife, a razor or a piece of glass right after she had an enormous, serrated blade right in her hand only inches from Negan's throat? I think I got that right. Writers, what are you trying to do to us?

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For the first time in years, I didn't watch the repeat of TWD.  I just didn't have the heart to sit through that again.

Watching Negan claim to be anti-rape and the good guys forcibly take a community's weapons make me wonder if the writers are TRYING to make me think that Rick and Negan are a lot alike.  Because it's getting hard to see the difference.  I KNOW CDB are the 'good guys' but I haven't SEEN it in a couple of seasons.

There was mention of 1950s thinking but I think it's hard to stay out of the 50s when the ONLY group that Rick didn't negotiate with is the group with no men.  He's done nothing BUT negotiate with Jardis and her interpretive dance crew, so it's not that he thinks ALL women are weak.  Just the ones without any male backup.

It's really hard to believe that Rick took Tara's word that there was NO negotiating with Oceanside.  Rick knows Tara's an idiot.  JUDITH knows Tara's an idiot; remember the look on her face when Tara was talking/babbling to/at her.  Why the fuck would Rick believe anything Tara said?  Why didn't he even try?  As it was, it only took a few seconds of being in the presence of Rick Grimes and his mighty python before young women were punching their own grandmothers upside the head.

If Rick decides to trust Dwight, I HOPE Dwight's a spy because it would serve Dwight right.  He wasn't so quick to trust a woman who showed up at his door carrying BABY FORMULA.

I used to think that Rick was mostly attracted to stupid women.  Now I realize that fucking Rick Grimes MAKES a woman stupid.  That's the only explanation I can think of for Michonne being willing to open fire on women and children.  Lori probably was a Rhodes scholar before she met Rick but after a few years and a kid, she forgot how to fucking drive.

I know the party line is RICK GRIMES IS ALWAYS RIGHT even though he's USUALLY dead wrong.  But to watch caring and compassionate people like Aaron, Father G, Eric, Jesus (for Christ's sake) and others go along with Rick taking away a community's defenses without one protest was mind-boggling.  Yeah, Oceanside has knives, but you've got to get pretty close to use a knife.  A gun is always better in the ZA.

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Much like Negan's wives, it seems Sasha wanted the weapon not to off herself but to turn on Negan. Alas, hard to do with a pill. 

Not if she gets intimately involved with him, and while doing so shoves the pill up his ass.

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2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Not if she gets intimately involved with him, and while doing so shoves the pill up his ass.

Now that's the kind of out of the box thinking that makes me want you on my ZA dream team, Icemiser69!

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Most y'all made my points regarding this episode, so I won't waste time repeating them.

As far as the cast goes, I'll make my predictions now.  Eric, now that he had his fine speech about seeing the need to fight, is a goner.  But don't worry Aaron - we just found out that Jesus is gay, so you're okay.  Two gay guys are automatically meant to be hooked up, just because they're gay.  And can I say I find Ross M SOOOO much hotter with a beard?  That baby face of his is just off-putting somehow.

I hope Cyndie and short-hair (Beatrice?) survive, but Granny is certainly a goner, as are most of the women of Oceanside.  If Tara survives, I want Rachel to survive, just because she irritates Tara so much.  Anyone who bugs Tara is okay by me.  Tara?  You're supposed to be a grown-up - try acting like one.

I'm hoping Jadis bites it, just because she irritates me with her faux Yoda-speak.  But I hope whoever makes the junk sculptures survives - the world needs artistic types, even in the za.  I hope man-bun from Hilltop survives as well - he's easy on the eyes.  And yes, we saw them growing crops before TF arrived, so why do they need Maggie telling them how to do it?  Did they lose IQ points when TF came on scene?  Speaking of which, Maggie!  If you're planning to transplant a bush, you might want to bring a shovel to the job site instead of a little hand trowel!  It makes the job a sight easier.

I think Shiva is going to die, just because I can't believe that they have the budget to keep CGI-ing a tiger into scenes.  But I hope Ezekiel and Jerry survive, as well as Henry and Nabila, Diane and a few of the other Kingdomers.  I like their group, and they seem to have their act together.

I think Sasha is for sure going.  My guess is that she knows Negan will try to use her to harm TF, so she'll take the suicide pill in order to keep Negan from being able to use her as a pawn.  And it'll be bonus points if Negan doesn't realize she's dead and she gets go eat his face.  Eugene, of course, will survive, and TF will take him back.  Probably without ever knowing that he joined the Saviors.  He'll convince them that he was playing a long con.  Judith, Coral and Enid will survive.

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I wanted to hear Sasha go off on Eugene for his betrayal.  Abraham did protect his ass, after all.   And all these genius things he's doing for Negan he could've been doing in Alexandria, instead of cowering and whining all the time.  Guess it took the intimidation of a douche with a baseball bat to eek any value out of him.

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3 hours ago, Haleth said:

It's really glaring what a better actor Berkeley is than 99% of the cast.

Can someone remind me who we are supposed to be rooting for?  Without Glenn's and Hershel's humanity CDB is no longer the beacon of hope.  I get that not always choosing to do "right" makes Rick and Co more complex, but stealing from a bunch of women (not necessarily helpless women) is just plain wrong.  Rick took "no" for an answer from Hilltop and the Kingdom and walked away, but faced with a community of women he bullies and threatens them into turning over all their guns.  So now he'll turn around and give those guns to Jadis and her group without any idea what the GPKs will do with them?  How does this make any sense?

I agree it makes no sense whatsoever.  But it is believable as a Rick Grime's plan. 

I love Xander.  On TD Lauren Cohen talked about working with Xander.  Apparently he screws with the cast.  He is constantly changing up his line readings, and not getting names right was his improv.  Apparently he made AL mad when he call Rick - Rich.

I am on Team Xander. 

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12 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Please no. I can't take anymore, "Guns. More. Want we. Ten. Go do." conversations. I'd rather listen to Negan. Actually, he made quite a bit of sense this week so his chatting to Sasha didn't bother me that much, well, not as much as listening to Tara did. And just what was she looking so smug about when she flipped off the kid? She nearly derailed Rick's whole plan with her klutziness and inability to do anything right.

Tara flipped off the kid after originally meeting her. (When she was leaving).  I thought it was childish then and now.  Hopefully, it's calling back to when clumsy ass and her Debbie Wasserman Schultz looking GF were in the group storming the prison. DWS got shot in the head point blank by Lizzie, so hopefully Tara gets put down by a child assasin too.  The kid wanted to kill her originally, as did everyone else but Cindy.   Please let the kid track her down and kill her.  Hard. 

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Random stuff:

Dwight is trying to protect his wife.  I seriously doubt that he is there to spy on Rick.  I am surprised that we haven't seen Dwight's wife since she bailed on Nagenville.

I do wonder if Nagen was just playing head games with Sasha, when he was saying to her that he knew Rick was up to something.  Of course, the gun that Sasha was carrying ought to cause Nagen to ask himself where the hell did that particular type of gun come from.

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10 minutes ago, alrightythen said:

I wanted to hear Sasha go off on Eugene for his betrayal.  Abraham did protect his ass, after all.   And all these genius things he's doing for Negan he could've been doing in Alexandria, instead of cowering and whining all the time.  Guess it took the intimidation of a douche with a baseball bat to eek any value out of him.

So...Negan does have a positive side then?  LOL.  Maybe he was a corporate team building leader before the ZA.

I've become so ambivalent to this season it wouldn't even bother me if Negan won this war.

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21 minutes ago, Diane M said:

Where is Carol?

Somewhere gobbling up Jerry's cobbler that she claimed she didn't want.

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7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, Negan's down with basically forcing women to marry him, but is still anti-rape, somehow.  That is a hell of a contradiction, right there.

 

5 hours ago, Vyk said:

I'm starting to think he doesn't actually have sex with his wives unless it's their choice.  That might be why he's anti-rape.

 

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Oh, so rape is not okay at Casa de Savior? Anyone else have a hard time buying that? Negan bashes people's skulls in with baseball bats, he threatens to cut a kid's arm off, he throws doctors into the fire - but he won't condone rape? Oh wait...unless HE gets to do the raping. I mean, what does he think his little harem is? Those women aren't there willingly. They're "consenting" under duress. He's delusional if he doesn't think he's violating those women. 

 

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

He's not anti rape. His entire ethos is about rape, but he might construe it somehow that since the women chose him over, you know, being murdered, that it's not rape. Those women are not there willingly, any time they might agree to sleep with him is for survival...it's rape.

 

51 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I'm sure the wives don't feel they have a choice, but Negan can tell himself they ARE choosing to have sex with him, merely because he's not actually holding them down.

In my opinion, it's not about Negan, it's about the creator of Negan and his idea that rape is only rape if it's "forcible", if the woman "fought back" or not and whether or not she was "dressed like a slut" and all the other victim blaming bullshit too many people still believe. He probably doesnt even believe men are ever raped by women. Fuck him. Part of my thinking on this is informed by reading the comic. The first time he met Rick he threatened to let his guys

Spoiler

"run a train" on Carl (who was about 8 years old in the story at that time) which is "a euphemism for a gangbang or a gang-rape".

Moving on to other thoughts...

Unless Sasha means for Eugene to be caught out, she best break that lamp they left in her cell and use some glass to slit her wrists in addition to taking that pill otherwise, whomever comes into that cell and finds her dead-undead ass will ALSO find the baggie that pill was in, Negan will quickly put 1+1 and BOOM, into the fire with Eugene, stupid stupid bullshit plan there yall.

Lastly I gotta get this off my chest as Ive been thinking about it all morning. The show-runners, most of the cast and even Hardwick are all on this bullshit rhetorical idea that "if we started the show with Negan, we would feel for him the same as we feel for Rick and we would see that Rick is EQUAL in awfulness to Negan". Now granted, Rick holds a lifetime pass to the crazy train and is usually its conductor. And Rick has flat out murdered people for looking at him menacingly (Herschel's unexpected bar patrons). HOWEVER, think about it like this; Negan and Rick both started out at the SAME time (ok, quibble if you like, Rick was about a month behind due to being in a coma), they've both been through all the shit, different only in detail. It's been roughly 2-ish years and Negan is Negan, a person who has no compunction about brutality often for brutality's sake (I mean really, what he did to the doctor was just brutal to be brutal). If Rick was going to be = to Negan, he already would be. As another poster up-thread said, Rick is much more like Governor than he is anything (even that I would not be fully on board with but that's another discussion). Negan would take all those guns and take at least some of those women for various purposes (harem being chief among them) and hell, burn down the cozy shacks for giggles. RICK asked them to volunteer and told them the guns would be returned (assuming they survived of course). Not the same.

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12 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

Hopefully, it's calling back to when clumsy ass and her Debbie Wasserman Schultz looking GF were in the group storming the prison. DWS got shot in the head point blank by Lizzie

Recalling that scene where two little blond girls are pointing guns at a woman's head - shocking, brutal and truly disturbing without heaps of CGI gore - makes me terribly nostalgic for the days when this show had so much more going for it.

 

44 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

As it was, it only took a few seconds of being in the presence of Rick Grimes and his mighty python before young women were punching their own grandmothers upside the head.

Bah!! Snorting coffee here, because it's so true and so damned funny.

Speaking of funny, did I hear Gregory call Rick "Ricky" last week?

And speaking of Gregory, how groaningly obvious was it when Maggie had to struggle and wrestle with one super-decayed walker - as she's never done before -  long enough to give us time to watch Gregory being so helpless and scared shitless by one of them?

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I thought Negan meant Eugene was the "little birdy" snitching that Rick was up to something. Not that Eugene had any knowledge of the current mission but he at least knew Hilltop was hiding Maggie and a general layout of how shit works over in Alexandria.

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3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

And speaking of Gregory, how groaningly obvious was it when Maggie had to struggle and wrestle with one super-decayed walker - as she's never done before -  long enough to give us time to watch Gregory being so helpless and scared shitless by one of them?

It would have been so funny if Maggie had dispatched her walker and then just stood there, watching Gregory until he finally called uncle. Missed opportunity there!

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