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S04.E15: Self Control

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4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Coulson is a racist teacher!

I'm not sure if we can draw that conclusion yet.  If he is a sociology professor, studying and discussing the fear of inhumans would be a relevant topic for students in this universe.  If he is anti-inhuman, it will be rough on Daisy.

Radcliffe wanted the Framework to fix "one regret" for the characters and to make life less painful.  It is hard to guess how different their personalities will be.

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Best episode ever!!!!! So good I don't know where to start. 

Daisy, Jemma and Maybot were awesome.

That scene with Maybot and the explosives and her speech to Coulsonbot was heartbreaking. I cried!!!!!!!

Love the Fitzbot and Simmons fight to the death. 

Got teary at Simmons and Daisy. 

Omg it's like they gave me what I never knew I needed!!!!!

My only gripe is at the end where Simmons is dead and Fitz is with another woman!!!! Noooooooooo *cries*

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 I’m getting a very It’s a Wonderful Life or Sliding Doors vibe from the Framework. 

Since John Hannah was in Sliding Doors let's go with that one.

Deal!  I confess I'll miss seeing him in this show, assuming he doesn't last beyond the framework.  John Hannah is just such a charming actor I really enjoy seeing him even when his character is a complete bastard.

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3 hours ago, LilJen said:

Am I the only one who kind of wants someone, at the end of the season, to stab the Darkhold with a basilisk fang?

I want one S. Strange (or Mr. Wong) to arrive and take it in his charge.

13 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I'm not sure if we can draw that conclusion yet.  If he is a sociology professor, studying and discussing the fear of inhumans would be a relevant topic for students in this universe. 

I'm counting on the fact that the chalkboard reads "Inhumans: Why We Fear Them" and not "Why We Should Fear Them."

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On 2017-02-22 at 6:33 AM, Raja said:

My speculation for the woman with Fritz is Agnes or Bobbi.

For whatever reason, I thought of Victoria Hand. But I wonder now if  the original ::sniffle:: has simply been replaced by Jemma Annedroid Simmons?

I did think of MODOK when Greasy Russian Thug was staring at his own head in its bottle. Well, MODOK and also Futurama.

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18 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

 

No, the detector said 4 LMDs detected. We thought (and with the visual image, were meant to think) that the detector was live. No, the detector meant that it had detected 4 LMDs at the time Simmons called up the data. Fitz, Mac, Mace and Coulson.

I looked up the screenshot. It specifically says "Compile all reports." So it took all the scans it's made and compiled them, and told Simmons there were 4 total.

 

I also don't think it was Daisy's regret to be with Ward or Simmons to be dead. Remember, Aida altered the world to fix those regrets upon doing a brain scan of the 7 residents. The Framework was then based on them. But Daisy and Jemma weren't scanned like that - they hacked in. So they were just replacing the AI versions of themselves inside the Framework, but the framework didn't change to accommodate them.

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Great episode! Except... if Simmons is dead but she also just entered The Framework, are they going to do a 'buried alive' thing here? Because NOPE! I will FF through that shit. Also, look, this is really great storytelling. I've just never liked alternate reality stories on a TV show. To me, it feels like the story stalls while they figure out how to get back to their real world. Think I might skip the next bit. Some pretty stellar work from Elizabeth Henstridge and Chloe Bennett, though!

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On 2/21/2017 at 11:07 PM, MisterGlass said:

Clark Gregg was giving some creepy expressions as LMDCoulson. 

 

I thought it was just me, who noticed this. I figured that it was just my interpretation because I knew that it was LMDCoulson.

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22 hours ago, meeeechiganman said:

The Moody Blues, simply Awesome

I was very surprised and thrilled to not only hear the Moody Blues, but one of their more obscure tunes as well. Threshold Of A Dream was my introduction to them, many years ago. It's still one of my favorite all-time albums.

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So the Framework is Hell right?

Daisy knew that she was in the Framework and for a moment she was hopeful and excited to see Lincoln. It is going to sting when she see Ward's face.

Coulson is some kind of teacher spewing hate about the Inhumans.

Fitz looks a rich douche with no Jemma in his life.

Jemma is dead.

May is at Hydra.

Mack might be okay living his daughter but it is going to kill him when he has to say goodbye to her.

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Maybe Coulson was the driving force pushing Fury to create them and get Captain Am out of retirement.  w/o him doing that, no Avengers no defeat of Hydra.  Though, one might wonder at the status of the Chitari (sp?) and Loki in that case.

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Man, people love shipping people that aren't romantic at all these days. (Daisy/Gemma for example).

This show and Bates Motel. The quality leaps in those two shows have been nothing short of incredible. It always feels good to be rewarded for sticking with a show that is clearly good or could be but not reaching it's full potential.

I don't feel the need to single anyone out. Everyone stepped their game up massively. Especially, in this episode. It felt so weird seeing how easy it was for the actors to flip a switch. Amazing stuff.

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I"m struggling to see how Coulson's regret, whatever that is, that is fixed, ends up allowing Hydra to win.  Or for May to be leading Hydra (wtf?).  Or for Fitz to be with another woman because Jemma died.  And so where does hacked Jemma end up?  In a coffin 6 feet under?  

If Aida killed Radcliffe, while allowing him to be 'uploaded' into the framework, why not do the same for the other people?  Oh yeah, right.  Plot.  gotta keep them alive to eventually come back.  :p

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6 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I"m struggling to see how Coulson's regret, whatever that is, that is fixed, ends up allowing Hydra to win.  Or for May to be leading Hydra (wtf?).  Or for Fitz to be with another woman because Jemma died.  And so where does hacked Jemma end up?  In a coffin 6 feet under?  

If Aida killed Radcliffe, while allowing him to be 'uploaded' into the framework, why not do the same for the other people?  Oh yeah, right.  Plot.  gotta keep them alive to eventually come back.  :p

 
 
 
 
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If I remember correctly, it was Captain America (aka Steve Rogers), Black Widow, and Nick Fury that defeated Hydra when they revealed themselves, while Coulson, Victoria Hand, and Coulson's team (minus, of course, Ward and Garrett) were too busy fighting each other basically at the same time. In my opinion, it seems that they are kind of stretching the idea that if Coulson wasn't somehow around to either protect Steve in CA: TFA and/or stop Hydra in CA: WS (and I honestly do not fully remember that it was Coulson who protected him. To me it always felt like it was Fury and not Coulson but Coulson was just doing his job taking care of Steve and we knew that a) Fury was suspicious that something was going on in SHIELD and b) Hydra didn't want to reveal themselves at that time)) Steve would've died because of Hydra. Again, this is just my theory but it seems like this is something that the show would use as an explanation or it will never be explained. Or maybe the Framework is yet another old SHIELD tech but it was actually made by a SHIELD Hydra member and this was just some kind of retreat and/or simulation to see how things would go down if they were in charge?

Edit: another theory, I just heard is that maybe the nuking of NYC actually happen because there was no Coulson and no Coulson's death to unite the Avengers in time to not only stop Loki but also to have Iron Man divert the nuke through the portal to the other side?

As with the who idea of Hydra leading the world and letting themselves out in the open- this could be a simulation where Hydra won (meaning winning WWII) and just ditch (hopefully) Hitler and the Nazi at the roadside. Although, if this is the real May why is she so fine with the idea of not only working with Hydra, Hydra running the US/the world, but also being its director is beyond me. 

My thoughts on Fitz is this- he help created this world, alongside with Radcliffe, so he probably put himself (or became) as the most powerful and/or influential person in that society. So, of course, he is rich, probably influential/powerful and if it turns out that he is aware that this is a computer simulation I will probably have more disgust for him even more. He was the one who is also responsible for all of this (if only he could report this to SHIELD but wait, he didn't because he thought it would such a great idea to keep it from Simmons because he wanted to "protect her". And okay, Simmons is also partly to blame since she instead blackmailed her boss....). Sure, Radcliffe was the one who made AIDA but he was at least, at first, wanting to tell Simmons, but Fitz shot that idea down and decided that they should keep everything a secret and also to work on AIDA and the Framework in secret. This is as much of his creation as just Radcliffe. The only real difference is that he didn't read the Darkhold while Radcliffe only got a glimpse of it. 

As with the "why didn't they just kill off May, Coulson, Mac, Mace, and Fitz because their brains were all uploaded to the Framework?"; I would say that it probably had more to do with the plot (and I have been pointed this out- why didn't Radcliffe just kill the real May because he did scan her brain and he didn't need her alive at all?). Sure they tried to point out that Radcliffe is against the idea of killing (oh, how so noble of him. I mean he has no problem kidnapping and replacing them with their robot doubles- also has no problem working for a known extremist group that wants to ride the world of Inhumans, but killing his SHIELD friends is where he draws the line....) but it still reeks of hypocrisy on Radcliffe's part. Although, still John Hannah has done a really great job at portraying the character and that is why I still like Radcliffe. 

Edited by TVSpectator
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4 hours ago, Absurda said:

Maybe Coulson was the driving force pushing Fury to create them and get Captain Am out of retirement.  w/o him doing that, no Avengers no defeat of Hydra.  Though, one might wonder at the status of the Chitari (sp?) and Loki in that case.

It's possible.  I could see Coulson being the driving force at getting Cap out of the ice, even.  He was the investigating agent for Iron Man and Thor.  But I think the Avengers still happen as long as we have Nick Fury.

Could Coulson have saved Fury once?

7 hours ago, Sandman said:

I want one S. Strange (or Mr. Wong) to arrive and take it in his charge.

I like it.

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26 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

So why did/does Radcliffe and/or Aida want to kill the Inhumans? Is this the influence of the Darkhold or was Radcliffe always a closet Hydra fanboy?

Does that part have to do with the fact that they made the Watchdogs their allies, in the process of getting the Darkhold? I really don't know and I really don't know why the simulation would show that Hydra is running everything and everyone is just fine with it, is beyond me. Sure there is a shock value in seeing Hydra winning (and having their symbol plastered on the Triskelion building)  but something does feel so off about the simulation- maybe it has something to do with how evil the Darkhold is and the fact that the Darkhold did lay out the blueprints to help build/improve AIDA and the Framework?

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1 hour ago, Terrafamilia said:

So why did/does Radcliffe and/or Aida want to kill the Inhumans? Is this the influence of the Darkhold or was Radcliffe always a closet Hydra fanboy?

I don't think they, well just Aida now, care but unless they put out an army of Terminators that is the deal they made with MODOK Superior (I am going with that until proven wrong) and the Watchdogs to provide troops to protect the Framework. An Inhuman like Yo-Yo is presumably a threat to the Framework, or at least Aida sees them as one.

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I don't think this is a Hydra won kind of scenario. I think it's just Hydra is the Framework's version of Shield for some reason. For reasons. I also don't think Coulson is hating on Inhumans exactly, I think it's just a class on why people fear Inhumans. I think it's possible that the girl with Fitz will be Aida.

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On 2/22/2017 at 4:14 PM, mrspidey said:

So Jemma's big regret in life was being alive?? And how is she gonna help Daisy from six feet under?

The Jemma that was in the Framework prior to the final scene was an NPC.  She wasn't a player-character yet, so the program was set up without her "Biggest regret got fixed" input.  I'm guessing that the Framework had her dead because it was somehow necessary for her to be out of the way for the backstory of one of the other player characters, most likely Fitz. 

 

From what Aida told Radcliffe, it sounds like she had to reset the Framework's MMO server every time a new player joined the game just to fix their individual regret.  Maybe the Framework-framed plots will behave like an alternate timeline story, but instead of the usual "what if one single event changed, like JFK wasn't assassinated, how would history diverge" story, it'll have seven points of divergence (one for May, Radcliffe, Fitz, Coulson, Mack, the Director, and the woman Aida was modeled on).

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The Framework is more like the Nexus from Star Trek: Generations than the Matrix. Just like Picard convinced Kirk to leave the artificial happiness of the Nexus, Mack will leave his unreal daughter behind...

Edited by paigow
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The "field of Daisy's" was certainly a cool visual but it did leave me scratching my head. I can get that they might have felt that an army of Quakes going out on individual forays to corral the inhumans would greatly expedite the process but when did they ever have the time to ship them all in and set them up? How much time could have passed between the last episode and this one? On the other hand, Fitz may have been switched out earlier than last episode. When Mace's new super-suit arrived Fitz was working on the LMD detector in the passageway to the hanger and it went off. He passed it off as a malfunction in the calibration or something. On the gripping hand, if fakeFitz was in charge of the LMD detectors why install functioning units at all?

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42 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

The "field of Daisy's" was certainly a cool visual but it did leave me scratching my head. I can get that they might have felt that an army of Quakes going out on individual forays to corral the inhumans would greatly expedite the process but when did they ever have the time to ship them all in and set them up? How much time could have passed between the last episode and this one? On the other hand, Fitz may have been switched out earlier than last episode. When Mace's new super-suit arrived Fitz was working on the LMD detector in the passageway to the hanger and it went off. He passed it off as a malfunction in the calibration or something. On the gripping hand, if fakeFitz was in charge of the LMD detectors why install functioning units at all?

My guess is that the Fritz LMD was a sleeper like the May LMD and not knowledgeable like the Mace, Coulson, and Mac units 

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1 hour ago, paigow said:

The Framework is more like the Nexus from Star Trek: Generations than the Matrix. Just like Picard convinced Kirk to leave the artificial happiness of the Nexus, Mack will leave his unreal daughter behind...

 
 
 

You are really an amazing Trekkie but I would rather have the Framework to be (in actuality- if it's not just a really fancy computer simulation) Cthon's dimension where he controls all functions of that reality. I mean in the comics he literally was the one who wrote the Darkhold (and is sometimes referred to as "The Demon from The Darkhold" ) but he can't come into our world (that was why he wrote the Darkhold) unless he has massive power but in his realm he controls all of its functions and can reshape it by his will.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/chthonother.htm

Edited by TVSpectator
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Didn't Coulson say something when confronting the Superior or some other anti-Inhuman person about how he initially had his own doubts/issues working with super-heroes?  

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Just now, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Didn't Coulson say something when confronting the Superior or some other anti-Inhuman person about how he initially had his own doubts/issues working with super-heroes?  

 

Yeah, but wasn't Coulson kind of very willing (so willing that it was implied that he really must love people with super powers) and was like one of the first SHIELD agents to even suggest that they should look into with people with powers and maybe have them be on SHIELD's side- working with people with "enhanced abilities"/"powered people" or something? I mean he seemed to be kind of fine with working with superheroes like Iron Man, The Hulk, Thor, Captain America, Black Widow, Daisy, Deathlok, etc.... from the first meeting. 

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I see a lot of people questioning why May is at Hydra, but I think it makes perfect sense. Since she was the first one to enter the framework, they had to give her "something to fight for". So, I am assuming that the reason for Hydras uprising is because May needs to work within the belly of the beast and be in a constant fight, as that would keep her calm, being undercover. And from there, the rest of the framework was built?

I just have to say that this entire episode, from start to finish, really got me. It was well-written, well acted and really cool. I am not even upset at seeing Ward again, because this is a new(ish) setup for the character and the stronger storyline possibilities (Bless Lincoln, but his character was dull).

That hug though, been rewatching that sequence and Maybots scene over and over and over again...

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It had its flaws, but I adored this episode. I especially loved that women were at the center of it, both human and LMD.

I fully expect the woman in the car with Fitz will be Aida, but I would love it if Bobbi and/or Hunter showed up. I've never stopped missing them. I can do with or without Ward, but I'll admit to being interested in what they'll have Brett Dalton do (I don't blame the actor for the stupid directions they took his character).

I can't believe how good this season has been and that we have to wait until April to pick it up again.

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This season of AoS is currently one of the few shows I watch the same day if at all possible.  I know the LMD storyline hasn't been everyone's cup of tea but I've been loving it.  (Maybe because it has reminded me a lot of the first few seasons of Battlestar Galactica.)  I had to watch this episode twice just to process everything and loved the Jemma/Fitz showdown both times.  Daisy and Jemma were just as good.  The Russian was my least favorite thing but even that was creepy enough to be entertaining.  

Could Daisy being with Ward when she enters the Framework just be a background part of someone else's regret?  May's perhaps?  

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On 2017-02-23 at 6:09 PM, TVSpectator said:

My thoughts on Fitz is this- he help created this world, alongside with Radcliffe, so he probably put himself (or became) as the most powerful and/or influential person in that society.

Fitz helped create Aida, but I don't remember him contributing to the Framework -- what did I forget?

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Fitz created, or helped create the training software that the Framework is based on.  Remember in the beginning of the episode when Coulson and Daisy were sparring in that training exercise?

Edited by Teitr Styrr

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10 hours ago, Sandman said:

Fitz helped create Aida, but I don't remember him contributing to the Framework -- what did I forget?

I always thought that the Framework, or the technology that is being used for it, came from that VR headset that Fitz said he and Radcliffe were working on earlier (this was introduced way back in the very first episode of this season)?

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On 2017-02-23 at 11:33 AM, jacehan said:

I looked up the screenshot. It specifically says "Compile all reports." So it took all the scans it's made and compiled them, and told Simmons there were 4 total.

I thought the "Compile All Reports" might be a command icon on the screen. In other words, it didn't necessarily indicate the compilation had already been performed. I figured Sparky!Fitz altered the scans to show a false positive for Daisy, thereby throwing suspicion off of him. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how getting (real) Daisy to meet with the Inhuman assets meant that Daisy would then kill them on sight. (I think that line from LMacD was a fakeout to reinforce the idea for the audience was Daisy had been replicated.) I suppose FakeMac would have been the one to off the Inhumans, but he would only have the element of surprise once.

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On 2/24/2017 at 4:31 PM, TVSpectator said:

Yeah, but wasn't Coulson kind of very willing (so willing that it was implied that he really must love people with super powers) and was like one of the first SHIELD agents to even suggest that they should look into with people with powers and maybe have them be on SHIELD's side- working with people with "enhanced abilities"/"powered people" or something? I mean he seemed to be kind of fine with working with superheroes like Iron Man, The Hulk, Thor, Captain America, Black Widow, Daisy, Deathlok, etc.... from the first meeting. 

Oh yeah, that is why his "confession" about his initial doubts seemed surprising, and may have revealed that he initially had some prejudices that he himself needed to overcome, which happened because he ended up working for SHIELD, and not leading that peaceful life he mentioned wondering about.  In other words, if his big regret was not just settling down and being a regular joe, and he ended up doing that, then maybe those deep prejudices he had would still be present because he wasn't work with and alongside those that he feared?

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Maybe Coulson regrets that he is not the real father of Skye / Daisy / Quake...so he brings her in for Show & Tell....

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I"m struggling to see how Coulson's regret, whatever that is, that is fixed, ends up allowing Hydra to win.

LMDCoulson revealed what Coulson's regret was: joining SHIELD in the first place. In the framework, Coulson becomes a teacher instead, and without his determination to destroy HYDRA, HYDRA apparently succeeds in vilifying and destroying SHIELD. Best guess anyway.

I think it's gonna get a little It's A Wonderful Life up in here come April. Without George Bailey Coulson, the whole town ends up going to shit!

Edited by hello
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I love, love, love that it's down to Jemma and Daisy, with Yo-yo, Piper, Guy Who Can Barely Fly the Zephyr, and Other Guy holding down the fort. Yay for the extras! (I would call them the SHIELD red shirts, but robo!Coulson and robo!Mack actually killed a few this ep—too on the nose, and sad.) 

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Wait Ward? That sucks! I really do not like him (the character not the actor) and was hoping they would let that character go! I hope that Daisy doesn't spend to much time with him, as I'll be fast forwarding.

And wait Jemma is dead? I hope that gets fix soon ;)

Anyhow, beside the last few minutes that episode was awesome. I loved that it was Simmons and Daisy vs everyone else. And that they added recurring characters from past episodes. And that Android May turned out to be more like May then they realized and went out as a badass. Overall, it was a great episode and April is way to far away.

Edited by blueray
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On 3/2/2017 at 4:31 AM, ahisma said:

I love, love, love that it's down to Jemma and Daisy, with Yo-yo, Piper, Guy Who Can Barely Fly the Zephyr, and Other Guy holding down the fort. Yay for the extras! (I would call them the SHIELD red shirts, but robo!Coulson and robo!Mack actually killed a few this ep—too on the nose, and sad.) 

Davies is his name .

In real life the actor is married to Dichen Lachman - so him ,his wife and their at the time unborn kid have all appeared on the show as Dichen was 8 months pregnant when they shot the Season 2 finale

Edited by Humbugged
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In real life the actor is married to Dichen Lachman - so him ,his wife and their at the time unborn kid have all appeared on the show as Dichen was 8 months pregnant when they shot the Season 2 finale

That is so cool! And, holy smokes, I had no idea she was pregnant.

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An awesome ending to a so-so arc, they really let Daisy and Gemma have it, but can't wait to get to the next arc...

Can't wait for Ward, my favorite character... I said it, come at me.

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Finally watched this episode, and boy was it ever what I needed.  I have been a fairly loyal Agents of SHIELD viewer since the very beginning, but season four has not at all been to my taste.  For whatever reason, the Ghost Rider arc didn't do it for me at all (it was probably my least favorite arc of the entire series, even counting the not great first half of season 1!)  and the LMD arc was only marginally better.  Instead of watching every week, I've been letting episodes pile up in my Hulu queue, and it was starting to seem pretty inevitable that I'd soon stop watching the show entirely.  But then the show produced one of the best (if not the best) episodes they've done in the entire series, and now I am fully back on board!  

Elizabeth Henstridge was absolutely AMAZING.  Episodes like this one really show how under-used her talents have been on the show.  Every time they give her real meaty work, she just knocks it out of the park.  Her fear and despair were just so palpable.  Chloe, Iain and Ming-Na also did some of their best work of the series.  And LMD Coulson and Mack were just so creepy!

April cannot come fast enough.  I'm really interested to see what the SHIELD version of the Matrix has to offer.  

On 2/21/2017 at 11:56 PM, Sandman said:

But I don't think I understand Simmons' and Daisy's plan. They're entering a simulation, interacting within that reality with people who don't know it's a simulation, hoping to find clues about the extra-reality location of the source beings of the avatars-who-don't-know-they're-not-real? Um. Isn't that like asking Simmons which sound stage Elizabeth Henstridge is shooting the episode on? Or did Simmons just invent the red pill? (I guess the writers have moved on from politics, and are now tackling religion.)

Maybe the plan is to somehow get one of their team to reject the simulation so that they'll wake up in the real world (the way May rejected the earlier version of the framework and woke up in Radcliffe's lab).  If they wake up, they could possibly gain information about where they're being kept and either contact Yo-yo and the SHIELD agents on the Zephyr if they can avoid Aida. 

On 2/24/2017 at 4:59 PM, Teitr Styrr said:

I don't think this is a Hydra won kind of scenario. I think it's just Hydra is the Framework's version of Shield for some reason. 

This was what I thought too, just because I can't see either Daisy or May working for HYDRA if HYDRA had somehow won after the Hydra uprising.  The reality of the Framework is whatever Radcliffe (or possibly Aida) wanted it to be, so there's no telling what alternative history of HYDRA, SHIELD or the entire United States might exist within the Framework.  For all we know, Agents of SHIELD is borrowing ideas from The Man in The High Castle as much as it's borrowing them from The Matrix, and HYDRA and the Nazis won WWII.

On 2/25/2017 at 2:43 PM, Acceleration said:

I see a lot of people questioning why May is at Hydra, but I think it makes perfect sense. Since she was the first one to enter the framework, they had to give her "something to fight for". So, I am assuming that the reason for Hydras uprising is because May needs to work within the belly of the beast and be in a constant fight, as that would keep her calm, being undercover. And from there, the rest of the framework was built?

This is a good theory!  

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7 hours ago, xqueenfrostine said:

Maybe the plan is to somehow get one of their team to reject the simulation so that they'll wake up in the real world (the way May rejected the earlier version of the framework and woke up in Radcliffe's lab).  If they wake up, they could possibly gain information about where they're being kept and either contact Yo-yo and the SHIELD agents on the Zephyr if they can avoid Aida. 

Good point. I hadn't thought of the possibility of getting others in the simulation to reject the Framework, or to shock them out of it somehow.

I like the idea of Framework!May working undercover in HYDRA, too.

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