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S09.E05: Shannon & Ray

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16 hours ago, Muffyn said:

I live in San Francisco.  I kept trying to read the street signs so I could see exactly where Ray's house is located.  While they kept talking about it being a three story house, there was more than one door.  It was either what we call a two flat or a three flat.  That is, each floor is an apartment.  Ray and his brother lived in the upper flat.  The walls that were coming apart were on the enclosed back porch.  From what they showed, the walls are not what you would normally imagine.  These are one layer of beadboard held together with wide spaced 2X4s. 

There was so much beautiful original woodwork in that house.  Damn.  It would be worth a lot of money if it was in good shape.  As it is, Ray is in a bad place.  Dealing with the city and contractors to do repairs will probably end up in his losing the building.  If he could get it fixed up and rent the units,  he would do well.  Rents are very high here.  I did wonder if they weren't showing the other floors because there are renters living there.  They may not be hoarders but the building is unsafe.  (I have almost finished massive amounts of repairs that were needed because I had a hoarder living in the upper unit of my two flat.  Fortunately I had money put away and could afford to not have a tenant for a long time.  I doubt Ray is in that position.)  

Shannon made me love Corey Chalmers even more.  He was so good at being kind to her.  He saved his snark for the talking heads.  He recognized just how unstable she is.  I worry about her kids and hope her family checks in regularly.      

Central Avenue was clearly shown, so Panhandle area?  

********

Other comments wondered about property taxes?  With Prop 13 in effect it could be $500 or lower a year?

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Where was the father (fathers?) of those kids? I don't see how she could support herself and those kids on just disability. 

I thought the "Wizard" was smoking a joint and blowing the smoke around! 

I can't imagine Ray having the funds to make that huge house habitable.

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19 hours ago, Muffyn said:

There was so much beautiful original woodwork in that house.  Damn.  It would be worth a lot of money if it was in good shape. 

I just die inside every time they show one of those beautiful old homes hoarded up with piss and shit and garbage. Ray's house still had the old lights and ceiling medallions.

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2 hours ago, WhoisMark said:

Central Avenue was clearly shown, so Panhandle area?  

********

Other comments wondered about property taxes?  With Prop 13 in effect it could be $500 or lower a year?

Thanks for the eagle eye street sign reading.  Panhandle it is.  If the brothers inherited the house or bought it a very long time ago they could have really low taxes.   One of  the problems with the system is that when you do repairs, the assessed value of the repairs gets added to the base for taxes and so the yearly taxes go up.  The house clearly hadn't had any work done in forever.  To fix he structural issues, replace all of the fixtures in the bathroom, knowing that there is probably serious damage to the walls and floors, Ray is easily looking at more than $100K.  If he needed help to pay for his brother's cremation, I doubt he has the bank to get the house up to code.

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I wonder if Ray could get a reverse mortgage do make his home more habitable.  If the house is worth his $2,000,000 estimate, it would be be a tiny fraction of the worth to make repairs and reinstall plumbing.

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9 minutes ago, NYCFree said:

I wonder if Ray could get a reverse mortgage do make his home more habitable.  If the house is worth his $2,000,000 estimate, it would be be a tiny fraction of the worth to make repairs and reinstall plumbing.

Yeah but I'm not 100% confident he'll maintain things once they are fixed... I wouldn't give him a reverse mortgage if I were a bank.

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Just now, Toaster Strudel said:

Yeah but I'm not 100% confident he'll maintain things once they are fixed... I wouldn't give him a reverse mortgage if I were a bank.

You're so right. I wasn't thinking of the hoarding or other craziness, just about the concept.

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2 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Where was the father (fathers?) of those kids? I don't see how she could support herself and those kids on just disability. 

I thought the "Wizard" was smoking a joint and blowing the smoke around! 

I can't imagine Ray having the funds to make that huge house habitable.

There was a brief mention near the start of the show about her having had a separation. Paternal responsibility should have been at play somewhere in that mess and aftermath.

It never dawned on me that he might have been smoking tobacco.  My first thought was it was a heck of a joint and I really doubted that it was burning sage.

We had a friend in New Orleans who was asked to do an exorcism before a building in the French Quarter was sold.  He was (certainly) no priest and he did something that made the new buyer satisfied with whatever he did.  And it paid him fairly well.  He was also a Tarot reader, etc. and he could read people.  

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6 hours ago, enoughcats said:

There was a brief mention near the start of the show about her having had a separation. Paternal responsibility should have been at play somewhere in that mess and aftermath.

It never dawned on me that he might have been smoking tobacco.  My first thought was it was a heck of a joint and I really doubted that it was burning sage.

We had a friend in New Orleans who was asked to do an exorcism before a building in the French Quarter was sold.  He was (certainly) no priest and he did something that made the new buyer satisfied with whatever he did.  And it paid him fairly well.  He was also a Tarot reader, etc. and he could read people.  

I thought it was tobacco because it looked liked he was smoking like a regular cigarette and not like a hand rolled joint.  Burning sage would have been WAY cheaper either way! LOL  But for all the people laughing at the "wizard," what did you expect?  A Roman Catholic priest to do an "actual" exorcism (if you believe in such a thing)?  I think the wizard doing his thing and blowing his smoke really put her mind at ease, which is what she needed.  Also, I can see why her family agreed that the house was infested by demons.  I bet crap moved on its own all the time and they probably heard lots of growls (rats are can be loud and rambunctious - we had some in our garage once and I thought they were having a Rave party one night).  Hell, I would want to kill myself if I had to spend any time at all in that house.

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On 1/15/2017 at 10:17 PM, fonfereksglen said:

The paranormal idiot did have children who were forced to live in a shelter with her.  To me, child abuse tops everything.  I didn't watch much beyond that hocus pocus nonsense, so hopefully those children were taken care of.  Though apparently, that's not a priority with most social services.  

Was there a reason why CPS had not been called on her? She clearly had some issues.

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On 1/15/2017 at 10:47 PM, Toaster Strudel said:

"Shadow people," "dark energy," "cat skull friend with baby rat offerings," vacuum cleaner  dust hoard... writing in blood and salt fences... obviously Shannon was delusional, maybe even paranoid delusional - but what was more terrifying is that her mother and her uncle also professed belief in all this nonsense.  And of course... the children believe these delusions because they are being reinforced by multiple adults.  I find it hard to believe they let her stay for so long in a domestic violence shelter because there was no domestic partner, therefore no domestic violence (except maybe for abuse of the children with the occult), but maybe they felt sorry for her psychiatric condition.

Zazio wouldn't confront her with her occult paranoid delusions but rather she worked with them.  OK, maybe in the short term to get the house cleaned but I hope this will be addressed in some serious medical psychiatric follow up. 

The Wizard of Ogden LOL cracked me up, playing bad flute, blowing cigarette smoke through a bamboo pole and fake hocus pocus gourd with a "new" hole in it - it was a pretty comical "exorcism" and Shannon was pretty nonplussed with the whole procedure.  The demons were probably only mildly amused or puzzled.  Shannon smoked like a chimney herself, it should have kept the demons away!

I have zero expectations that her clean, un-demoned house will last.

That San Fran row house, is it worth 2 million in this half-rotten, half-burned condition?  How did Ray even acquire this?  How did they know they were drinking juice or bottles of urine?  So many questions.

In my notes I wrote "Tony doesn't look well" and "that urine sure is cloudy, someone has a raging case of pyelonephritis" so no surprise for me about his demise.

The septic cleaning gave me the dry heaves... especially the toilet... OMG... gack!!! argh! uhgggg!

Ray was pretty outgoing... there is a small chance he won't re-hoard.

I kept saying that urine sure has a pink tint too it someone has blood in the urine.

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On 1/16/2017 at 2:27 AM, Mrsjumbo said:

Ray was a puzzle because unlike most mean nasty hoarders who hoard to his extent, he admitted it was a hoard & it was all his fault; was jovial & was friendly to others in his neighborhood; seemed to enjoy throwing the hoard out. He also still seemed quite cheery a day after his brother died. I didn't see the trauma background that triggered his hoarding like we see in nearly all of these stories. I'm wondering if he was an alcoholic? There were a LOT of empty bottles on the floor.

When they would say "time is running out" to clean the house all I could think of was that bathtub full of urine that was dangerously close to overflowing. Got it suctioned out in the nick of time! ((Gag))

The psychologists certainly earned their money this week. Esp. trying to keep a straight face when the wizard was playing the flute.

I started thinking he was an alcoholic also. He had a lot of 40oz. beer bottles in the house.

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In the beginning they said that Shannon had had a concussion, which can be serious but can also be fairly mild.  They never said what caused it.  She also made it sound like she had been through a lot of trauma in her life but gave no examples.  People mention her "TBI" but I'm wondering if it was a bump on the head that gave her an excuse to be even weirder.  She needs some serious psychiatric help and her kids need some sane adults in their lives.

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6 minutes ago, camom said:

 

In the beginning they said that Shannon had had a concussion, which can be serious but can also be fairly mild.

 

Didn't they saw the Traumatic Brain Injury happened a year ago?  Then she said nobody talked to her for three months so she found Friend.  

That's a whole lot of being really different to happen in less than a year.  Allow for hospital time with the injury and the the decision to move into the shelter and stay there long enough to almost use up her allotted time there. 

I don't know squat about the ethics of the mental health professionals who deal with hoarders, but what about the children?  Their safety?  Their abilities to mature into normals, or at least somewhere near the center of a bell curve?

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Shannon made me intensely sad. There's a whole lot more going on there than a TBI & a lot of past not spoken of; the mom & uncle didn't enlighten anyone either. I really hope she gets appropriate, ongoing help, & the kids will need support as well. It has to be traumatic for them to live with a mom in that emotional state; there's just no sense of stability or real safety for them.

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Shannon might have said she had a TBI, but the show said she had a concussion and never said how she got it.  Frankly, I'm suspicious of anything she says.

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On 1/16/2017 at 2:00 PM, califred said:

Cory said this is the last episode, they only ordered half a season and weren't renewed (yet).

 

 

That woman has no business being in charge of children.  Her TBI either caused or excaserbated a mental illness.

That woman had no business being featured on Hoarders! She is severly mentally ill! She should not have been used for our entertainment. She was way beyond help by the Got Junk Crew and Cory Chalmers: GarbageMan Psychiatrist . Her intro made it clear that she belonged in the loony bin and not on an episode of Hoarders! I am more appalled than usual with this fucking network. 

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Okay Hoarders has totally topped itself...that was the grossest of the gross, and I am a big fan of the show, but I am out....that lady was totally insane, has no right to have kids.  Most of the show became what I call a "fast forward special." This show has become something else about the seriously mentally ill. This is beyond OCD.

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What does BSOJ stand for?  I know it's the follow-up notations at the end of the program, but don't know what the acronym means.

Something was off about this entire episode.  I don't know if was the doctors assigned or what, but Shannon and Ray got off scot-free.  I've seen other hoarders with significantly fewer issues get taken to harsh tasks by TPTB.  Shannon had some severe mental problems that appeared to have been only made worse by her TBI. Imagined demons, saved vacuum dust, dead rats, a cat skull, c'mon?  I'm not a fan of Dr. Zasio and my blood pressure shot up when she brushed off the cat skull "friend" as a "comfort." The same with the vacuum cleaner dust.

I also wondered where the kids' father was or why the weren't either in foster care or with Shannon's family. I was puzzled why her mother and uncle (or was he her brother?) weren't more actively involved? Usually, the family members are front in center to "supervise" the hoard and infiltrate/embarrass the hoarder. I didn't necessarily think they thought that Shannon had problems or were just agreeing with her to be complacent. They all were either part of some sort of cult (for lack of a better term) or group that felt her belief system was OK. That wizard guy at the end looked like a side show from any RenFest and yeah, he was just blowing tobacco smoke around. Even Teresa Caputo would waft sage smoke around with a white feather

I thought Ray's brother was dead, when the camera first panned on him. That's what I thought the "big tragedy" was, which turned out to be the kitchen fire. Other people must have known about Ray's hoarding. How else would he have been able to haul an electrically defective refrigerator (and other large/bulky items) up all of those stairs? I also suspected alcoholism. When Ray poured that glass of amber liquid and started drinking it, I thought I saw a bit of foamy head on it and was sure it was beer. He also poured it into a beer glass.  I wonder if the brother died from an illness caused by the gross conditions? I think the doctor should have been more firm with Ray. It just seemed so odd that Ray would cheerfully and willingly go along with throwing everything away. He could possibly been in shock the entire time of the clean-up.

The show needed different therapists for this episode. However, if it might be the end of the road, then why bother? I would be disappointed if the series ends. I'd rather watch "Hoarders" than 2,000,000 episodes of "Intervention." Maybe they could have cross-overs with the hard-boiled therapists from "Intervention" taking a crack at some of the hoarders. Zazio and Tomlinson were epic fails this time around. Kudos, though, to Matt and Corey.

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The problem with these doctors is they are TV personalities, so they're sent there to do the show, not to help long term. The short term is whatever they can do with the cameras on them which I presume is also whatever they are allowed to do, which usually isn't much. The long term is going to be much more important because intervening by radically cleaning out a hoarder's home for 2-3 days has to be a bit traumatic for them. I know they have after care funds but we don't know what else, or what quality of care/help/support, is offered to them. I'm not sure what the doctors are doing is actually even responsible. I find Zasio plays up to the camera the most & is the least helpful, so of course they send her to someone with deep issues.

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:41 PM, Court said:

I just keep coming up with more questions. She said he, so I guess Friend was a male. I wonder if she was mentally ill before the TBI. Or did the TBI exacerbate it? 

Ray probably is manic depressive and after the loss of his brother he was manic. I liked him.

I think I was supposed to feel sorry for Shannon but I didn't. I felt bad for her kids but that was it.

She reminded me so much of my Uncle's late wife, D.  I mentioned her in another thread, with the tarot card woman who thought the homeless were in her yard (something else D firmly believed).  I'd been told by people who knew her when she was younger that she was always a bit "different" but when she was in her 20's, she was in a bad car accident, and had a TBI, and she went kind-of off the deep end.  Her husband left her with their son (I often wondered if her house was the best place for him - he was a few years older than me), and she was no longer able to work, so she had all day to sit around and think about things.  She was also deeply religious, and would hang up religious stuff around the house, and watch televangelists all day, and would donate money to them.  I would suspect something similar with Shannon.

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 1:52 AM, aliya said:

A few thoughts - Add me to those who thought Ray's brother looked a bit off when the doctor popped in to say 'hi.'  I'm sorry he passed away.

How the heck much do you have to hoard to have your house come apart at the seams? I understand floors rotting from under wet stuff or beams bowing from the weight, but actually to push your walls out??? Wow.

Was Shannon's thinking a function of her strokes? I've known a couple of people who had strokes, including a close cousin, and never heard of them falling over the deep end like this, but who knows. It was a little scary to think you could be fine one day and talking to cat skulls the next. 

When the wizard said he was going to "blow smoke," I couldn't help but say aloud, 'Yes, you are." What a mess. I guess they had to do something so Shannon would feel comfortable in the house, but I hope she gets additional therapy to deal with this - not just for her sake (I don't really care), but for her children's.

Yeah, Ray's brother didn't look well.  He looked mentally off, and physically off.  I was not surprised when they said he had passed.

I didn't care for the Wizard either, but if it makes her feel better, I don't really see the harm.  D's behavior often changed and we soon were able to tell when she was off her meds.  She would say that she felt better, so she figured she could stop taking them.  I wondered if Shannon was on meds at all, or if she was, if they were being taken.  We finally had to set it up that D had to go to the county MH/MR office to get her meds, and they'd monitor her.

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 2:27 AM, Mrsjumbo said:

Ray was a puzzle because unlike most mean nasty hoarders who hoard to his extent, he admitted it was a hoard & it was all his fault; was jovial & was friendly to others in his neighborhood; seemed to enjoy throwing the hoard out. He also still seemed quite cheery a day after his brother died. I didn't see the trauma background that triggered his hoarding like we see in nearly all of these stories. I'm wondering if he was an alcoholic? There were a LOT of empty bottles on the floor.

When they would say "time is running out" to clean the house all I could think of was that bathtub full of urine that was dangerously close to overflowing. Got it suctioned out in the nick of time! ((Gag))

The psychologists certainly earned their money this week. Esp. trying to keep a straight face when the wizard was playing the flute.

I thought that perhaps Ray's brother was the alcoholic, and he was his enabler.  They had a strong co-dependent vibe.  I can't imagine otherwise why his brother would stay there, unless he relied on him, or appreciated that there was no judgement from him.

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 10:15 AM, notyrmomma said:

She probably means she didn't have an adult to talk to.  But still, good point!  I doubt someone else was watching them.  And how could her family not check in with her for 90 days after a brain injury when she has three kids!  

In her brain's condition, she may not remember that someone came to check on her.  D often felt that people were against her.  We finally had to block their phone number because she'd call at all hours of the day and night to scream at you.  And D had a strong connection to a pet cat that she had  - she found it as a kitten.  When the cat died a number of years later, she was devastated, and my Uncle got her another cat, who had tons of health problems and didn't live long.  She wanted her original cat back, and in the end, he ended up buying her a stuffed cat that meowed, and purred, and made noises, and she carried it everywhere, talked to it, etc, so I didn't bat an eye at "Friend".

And I may be on the fast track to hell, but Ray reminded me of "Black Gallagher" from the old Chappelle Show.  "I've got warrants!".

 

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On 1/17/2017 at 10:36 PM, Court said:

BSOJ: Black Screen of Judgment

Exactly, from the old Intervention episodes.   Does anyone remember who came up with that acronym?  Just brilliant.  

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2 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

Exactly, from the old Intervention episodes.   Does anyone remember who came up with that acronym?  Just brilliant.  

IDK who it was, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were a computer techie person.  It reminds me of an acronym we used a lot:  BSOD (Blue Screen of Death).

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I thought Shannon and Ray were two of the sweetest and saddest people they've had on Hoarders.  I particularly loved how gentle Corey and Dr. Zasio were with  Shannon.  I just hope she continues to believe her house is "clear," and she manages to keep fairly organized.  The concussion really could have caused all the confused thinking and I hope she becomes more rational over time, but even if she goes on believing in demons, I don't think that's a big enough reason to take the children away.  They seem to love their mother and they were sure happy to be home.

Dr. Z explained in one show that there are only very specific reasons for calling CPS.  The kids have to have their own place to sleep, access to the kitchen and food, a working bathroom.  The parents can't be cruel or abusive, but eccentric ideas or weird beliefs are okay.  Shannon herself wasn't a danger to herself or others so she couldn't be committed.  All told, I think Zasio and Corey did the best they could for her.

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On the bright side, Friend was the most loved and cherished animal remains the show has ever seen! Sailcat is jealous...Friend was living it up! Friend's burial ceremony did make the crazy cat lady in me a bit misty-eyed, though. I can't really put my finger on it. 

Oh my goodness, me too! In fact, I'll go so far as to say that I seriously thought she should have kept Friend--for some reason, just the fact that its name is "Friend" is making my eyes tear up right now. 

I also got weepy about Ray's brother! I yelled, "Oh no"!

Edited by TattleTeeny
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On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎15 at 11:34 PM, Eliza422 said:

I feel like it was irresponsible of the show to work with Shannon. When you are talking about demons, dark energies, and good and bad vacuum dust, you are WAY beyond the normal hoarder. 

Yea I felt really bad when she explained her issues, and I usually don't have too much sympathy for the people on this show. Then I felt worse when I saw the "Doctor" they sent to deal with her. Shannon's issues seemed well beyond the typical hording OCD type stuff we usually get on the show, and Zasio seemed way out of her element.

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎15 at 11:51 PM, Diamond Dog said:

I don't understand how Ray was allowed back into that house. There was mold on top of mold, severe structural damage, and forget about the poop/urine contamination. Lord have mercy!  He needs heavy duty mental health care too. You got to be a bit of a cuckoo bird to do your business on top of newspaper, over a crap-filled toilet, next to a urine, and crap filled tub, and then walk it over to the neighbour's garbage can.  I mean, hello?  Anyway, I admire the entire team, and their dedication with handling a nightmare situation with tact, compassion, and understanding. 

At the beginning I felt bad for Shannon and it seemed like they were pairing her story up with Ray's which seemed a bit more light hearted. Then his brother died and it became the most depressing episode ever. And I agree that I have no idea how he could hope to fix his house. If the city would put a lien on it in exchange for making the repairs he might just be better off selling it.

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9 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

And I agree that I have no idea how he could hope to fix his house. If the city would put a lien on it in exchange for making the repairs he might just be better off selling it.

He could easily find one of those "yuppies with their checkbooks out muttering something about 'good bones.'"  I'm no real estate expert, but maybe he would only get $1 million for it as is?  Maybe $500,000?  It still in a great location.  Whatever he gets, it would buy him a few years at an assisted living facility or senior community (not a nursing home).  There is no way someone like him should be living alone with no one regularly checking on him.

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Yea it would seem that even a super lowball offer for that house would be enough to support himin a decent apartment or home, and supply him with 40's,  for the rest of his life.

I do wonder though if he was using his neighbor's bathroomm how does that work if he has to use the bathroom in the middle of the night a bunch of times as old people are known to do. 

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On 1/16/2017 at 1:50 AM, abstractstuff said:

After reading here and then watching the episode, I found myself liking Shannon a lot more than I thought I would. You guys didn't say anything bad, just the preconceived notions. I really liked her, and I got what she was doing with the dust and stuff. I liked her a lot. I kept forgetting she had children though. She needs serious help and friendship and love. And I hope she finds it, I really do. 

The paranormal stuff doesn't bother me. I am a believer. Heck, I've made an entire career out of my belief in the paranormal. However, she seemed mentally ill in several different ways. While a belief in the paranormal is not indicative of a mental illness, her extreme beliefs and actions can certainly be a symptom of one. Not to mention the hoarding. I DO hope she gets help. 

As a former social worker, I can say that this kind of case would be delicate. We, as the state, could not tell her that there are no such things as ghosts or demons. That falls under religious freedom and she is certainly free to believe in demons and ghosts if she wishes. However, we could definitely target different areas of her decisions and choices. For instance, if she didn't keep her house clean because of the demons, if she chose not to feed her children because of the demons, if she kept the kids out of school because of the demons, if she put the kids in physical danger, etc. You see where I am going with this? You can't yell "mental abuse" of the kids unless they are exhibiting signs of mental illness themselves.

Although it often feels like social services are in there at the drop of a hat, ready to take the kids no matter what, we were actually really limited to what we could do. A new movement started 10 years ago where they now believe that children should stay with their family if at all possible. I was actually a therapist with family preservation. My job was to help the family make the changes that the state required in order for them to keep their kids-or get them back. 

Back to the paranormal...We once had this case where the 8 year old kid was coming to school and telling everyone that she was seeing the ghost of her recently deceased grandpa. During the staff meeting, the other therapists were all aflutter-was the mom on drugs? was she schizophrenic? was there a carbon monoxide leak? Etc. etc. I finally raised my hand and said, "Well, what if she IS seeing a ghost?" We couldn't go in there and tell them there were no such things as ghost-that violated their religious freedom because they believed that dead relatives DID hang around as guardian angels. The kid had perfect attendance, good grades, friends, etc. In the end, the state didn't take the case. 

Don't get me wrong-I think Shannon is nuttier than a fruitcake. I don't believe there were demons in her house. But this kind of thing IS tricky. 

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Yeah.  At work, I got in an order for a memorial.  As I was handling it, I saw the person was 16.  So I did some digging.  I wish I hadn't.  The 16 year old had a bright future, and was well liked and doing well in school, but had faith healers for parents.  The kid died over an agonizing weekend of a septic infection.  The parents were arrested, but I don't believe the charges stuck.  I couldn't find any record that they did.  Their excuse:  Had the 16 year old asked to be taken to a hospital, they would have done so, but the kid didn't ask, so the parents didn't go.  Instead, they brought in church elders who did some rituals.  I'm all for freedom of religion, but you lost your 16 year old to something that a hospital could have fixed.  Truly sad.

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8 hours ago, funky-rat said:

Yeah.  At work, I got in an order for a memorial.  As I was handling it, I saw the person was 16.  So I did some digging.  I wish I hadn't.  The 16 year old had a bright future, and was well liked and doing well in school, but had faith healers for parents.  The kid died over an agonizing weekend of a septic infection.  The parents were arrested, but I don't believe the charges stuck.  I couldn't find any record that they did.  Their excuse:  Had the 16 year old asked to be taken to a hospital, they would have done so, but the kid didn't ask, so the parents didn't go.  Instead, they brought in church elders who did some rituals.  I'm all for freedom of religion, but you lost your 16 year old to something that a hospital could have fixed.  Truly sad.

That is awful. I actually see that a lot close to where I live. It's sad and neglectful. I have a rare, progressive connective tissue disorder that, thanks to a new development, turned recently became terminal. A "friend" wrote me not too long and told me that if I would just accept Jesus, I would get better. There is no cure for my disorder and no treatment-we just deal with the symptoms through pain management and various surgeries as my organs rupture. I am all for the power of positive thinking and believe that it CAN help you cope with things. But to even just suggest that I am somehow responsible for this due to my lack of faith is rude. 

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 9:35 PM, mamadrama said:

But to even just suggest that I am somehow responsible for this due to my lack of faith is rude. 

It's beyond rude, Mamadrama, it's stupid and crue.l  I've heard that sort of thinking from Buddhists who think it's karma, as well as Christians.  You want to ask people like this why babies sometimes die, do they lack faith?  I also want to ask them, since they believe illness results from sin, why  we aren't  all sick? (It's a basic tenet of Christianity that we all fall short and are all sinners.)  I am a Christian, but I believe our help comes from God in the form of mental comfort, to help us cope,  not miraculous healing that contradicts natural law.

I'm very, very sorry you have this awful illness, and with your permission,  I will pray that you don't have pain and that medical research  quickly comes up with something to help you.

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On 2/7/2017 at 9:35 PM, mamadrama said:

 A "friend" wrote me not too long and told me that if I would just accept Jesus, I would get better.

But to even just suggest that I am somehow responsible for this due to my lack of faith is rude. 

Accepting Jesus does not guarantee you will be healed and for your "friend" to suggest this is not being a loving Christian. I was born into a Christian family with a heart condition and not expected to live to 10 years old.  While I have lived longer than anyone thought I would, I still have the heart condition - I have never been healed.   When my dad was dying of brain cancer I actually prayed for his death. Not that I didn't want him on this earth any longer, because I did.  But I hated seeing him suffer, he had lost the ability to speak and before the tumor, he had never met a stranger.  A friend told me that was probably the most loving prayer because we knew he was not going to be miraculously healed at that point.

I am so sorry you are going through this.  Hopefully the medical community does have something that can help you.  

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3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

It's beyond rude, Mamadrama, it's stupid and crue.l  I've heard that sort of thinking from Buddhists who think it's karma, as well as Christians.  You want to ask people like this why babies sometimes die, do they lack faith?  I also want to ask them, since they believe illness results from sin, why  we aren't  all sick? (It's a basic tenet of Christianity that we all fall short and are all sinners.)  I am a Christian, but I believe our help comes from God in the form of mental comfort, to help us cope,  not miraculous healing that contradicts natural law.

I'm very, very sorry you have this awful illness, and with your permission,  I will pray that you don't have pain and that medical research  quickly comes up with something to help you.

 

3 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

 

I am so sorry you are going through this.  Hopefully the medical community does have something that can help you.  

Thanks guys. It DOES anger me when people say things like this. I am all for prayer. I believe all forms of positive thoughts and energy help and I'll accept anything I get.  My condition is at the bottom of the barrel-no current research going on, no celebrities with the condition, little to no awareness, etc. I don't think they will find something in my lifetime. My DNA would have to be completely altered. I have some slight hope with the stem cell research going on and hope that perhaps something will happen by accident that will benefit us. :-) But yes, to assume that one's faith, or lack of faith, is the cause of a significant medical problem like that...I find it disrespectful and it minimizes a complicated disorder. I mean, my kids have it as well. I might be a heathen but they're innocent enough. :-)

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I know this thread's been dead for months, but I just found it.

 

I didn't find Shannon any nuttier than the average religious person who believes in a sky daddy, or that a man lived for three says in the belly of a whale , or what have you. And the wizard was no crazier than a priest doing an exorcism. There's no difference in my mind between blowing a flute and chanting 'the power of christ compels you.'

 

Ray lives in Nopa. I see him around. He definitely has the support of the neighbors, and seems like a great guy.

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