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SilverStormm

Mindhunter

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9 hours ago, Bcharmer said:

I am a fan of the "why" of these types of crimes. I find the psychology fascinating. And I love the dark comedy, too. Yep, this one is right up my alley.... came along just when I was looking for something new, and good, to watch. Off to watch episode three.

Me too for both of these. That’s probably why I’m all in. 

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The finale didn't wow me (I would be pissed if I waited 10 weeks just to see a panic attack) but I enjoyed the show overall. I love 70s music but I hate when song titles/lyrics are too on the nose, so the song choices made me cringe a lot, especially in ep 7. I'm still not invested in the lead; his Boy Scout from Mars persona is just too odd for me. The girlfriend didn't bug me; it's nice that they gave her an arc. Thanks to whoever mentioned Fringe; I couldn't remember how I knew Anna Torv. I def. want to see more Kemper in S2.

Edited by numbnut
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Brought over from episode 1 thread:

9 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

The biggest problem I'm seeing with this show, is that there is no dramatic tension whatsoever. I get that it's about the early beginnings of profiling, but so far, It's basically like sitting in a  series of criminology lectures. There are no stakes, it's just people discussing theories.

I think that was my final judgment as well. Holden and Bill did solve at least one case -- I remember the team celebrating at a bar -- but I couldn't tell you offhand which one it was, or how they did it.

My lasting memories are of Kemper, the tickling principal, and the huge Dragnet style onscreen font telling us what town we were in.

(Well, and Debbie instructing Holden on how to fellate her, but only because I couldn't figure out what the hell that had to do with anything.)

Edited by 2727
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8 hours ago, aliferous85 said:

Yes, I know they are in SMALL TOWN AMERICA or QUANTICO. No need to shout that loudly. My retinas are still burning.

That was the other thing I meant to include in my post above. WTF is up with the crazy big title fonts? You can do large fonts, but are gargantuan ones really necessary?

Sigh. I will try plodding through Episode 3.

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Although I like this enough to keep watching the whole series, a couple of things bug me immensely.  First of all, I don't want all the personal backgrounds on the principal characters.  It seems completely gratuitous, and it doesn't add enough to make slogging through it worthwhile.  

Also, by 1977, everyone I knew had seat belts in their cars and used them.  Maybe it's an east coast/west coast thing?  But seriously, I don't even see the seat belts in the cars, much less anybody using them.  My husband's 1971 Pinto had shoulder belts, not just the earlier lap only belts.  My '74 Celica had better seat belts. Yes, 1977 is a long time ago, but it's not the 50s!

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I think it could also be that the series isn't episodic enough to warrant a topic per episode. It's a very slow accumulation of information, so you can have an hour where it feels like nothing happened, and then another hour builds on information from a previous one. This might be a problem inherent to the binge-released series format, where showrunners think in terms of 10- or 13-hour "movies" and a quiet hour is considered no big deal.

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10 hours ago, aliferous85 said:

Yes, I know they are in SMALL TOWN AMERICA or QUANTICO. No need to shout that loudly. My retinas are still burning.

It's been a long while since I've seen it but didn't Silence of the Lambs use massive fonts to establish locations? Is the show slapping us in the face with a homage to SOTL?

Edited by numbnut
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I wondered that too, numbnut (haha, I felt like I was being mean when I typed that!)--and also during the prison-hallway walk. For some reason the yelling title cards made me laugh--like, calm down, show.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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I really enjoyed this show.  The scene with Kemper at the end was scary as hell.  

My father was involved in the Brudos prosecution and it was very strange watching the scenes depicting Brudos as I am very familiar with the case as well as one of the places he abducted one of his victims.  I was always told to avoid that parking lot if I was shopping alone.  

 

The lead ear was good, but his partner was fabulous. I'm withholding my judgment on Carr and the girlfriend.  I did find  it sleazy that the new guy sent the tape in; knowing that there were innocent individuals that were going to catch shit for it.

Edited by AttackTurtle
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Just watched the first 5 minutes, when Cody blew his head off... OMG!  How'd they make that look so real?  This is gonna be good, I think!

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Helllooooooo.......  (loooo.... looooo)    There's an echo in here. :)

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the ADT guy in the cold opens?

The cop on this week's murder case reminded me of Ron Howard.

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I really like this so far. Its weird to see Jonathan Groff in something so dark, but he seems to be doing well with the part. It combines Fincher serial killer drama with a period piece, which I think is a strength of his. I will definitely keep up with this one. 

I thought the girlfriend stuff was alright. She was a bit smug for my taste, but I kind of like her offering a different perspective and a sounding board for the main character outside of law enforcement. 

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Well, Holden wasn't a boy scout by this episode, his ego pretty much took over. I think the show made him such a boy scout in episode 1 to make his personality shift over the course of this season more dramatic.

Still, I felt so sorry for him by the end, when Kemper asked him why he was there and he says "I don't know". Like Kemper said, that is the truth. There's so much he still doesn't know. He looked so tiny and pitiful in that scene, no wonder Kemper wanted to hug him. Heh. I loved how Kemper looked kind of confused when Holden ran away. Dude, how did you expect him to react after you said "I could kill you now pretty easily"?

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I'm assuming that the ADT guy is Dennis Rader, the BTK killer.  He looks a little like Rader, is in Wichita Kansas, and, Rader, like the ADT guy, worked for a home security firm at one point.

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I'm wondering whether they are going to show a certain chilling, real life event that happened between Kemper and the FBI agent.  I can't believe that they will leave it out so perhaps will show up in a later episode.  I think that Kemper is definitely the smartest man in the room in those interviews, and it shows.  

Real life comment:  I have a friend, who's husband was also around 6 foot 7, was abandoned by his father, had a horrific, abusive mother, and was very bright.  And you know what?  He somehow avoided murdering anyone or burying decapitated heads in his yard.  

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Was anyone else afraid that, in the midst of all the congratulations on the capture of the suspect, that they'd get a phone call about another elderly woman being murdered?  So glad that they didn't go there.

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I can't comment too much unfortunately, as I binge watched the first three episodes and I can't remember which scene happened in what episode now.  I do agree with the comments on the INCREDIBLY LARGE FONTS FOR THE CITY NAMES. Burnt retinas, indeed.  Holden is just so naive for an FBI agent, especially one who has had at least some field experience.  I'm hoping that he gradually smartens up a bit, at least in his ability to read a room.  He IS a smart guy, or he wouldn't even be interested in the psychology to begin with, but definitely is lacking people smarts.  Maybe that will come with time...

I almost didn't find this thread--I kept looking for Manhunter in the list instead of Mindhunter.

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Still not sold on the series, but I like the partner, and that montage sequence was most excellent.

I like him too -- something about the combination of hard-boiled investigator and guy who can actually talk about "feelings" stuff. He's also based on a real person, though I do not recall if that person had this personality. His books are good.

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I'm a little confused as to why they are focusing on him, as, while he started killing in the 1970s, when the show is set, he wasn't caught for 25 years or so.

I suppose that he could just be a fictional character based on Rader, but they used Kemper's real name so....

Edited by Yokosmom
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Binged the whole thing yesterday. I could not stop watching it.  

It has been renewed and the 2nd season is going to deal with the Atlanta Child Murders. BTK went on for several years, over a few decades, so I wonder if they'll just keep showing him a little at a time. 

It made me really angry that the new guy went against everyone's decision and sent the tape to the internal affairs unit.    The head guy should throw him out just on that, going against orders to destroy the tape. 

10 hours ago, Bec said:

Still, I felt so sorry for him by the end, when Kemper asked him why he was there and he says "I don't know". Like Kemper said, that is the truth. There's so much he still doesn't know. He looked so tiny and pitiful in that scene, no wonder Kemper wanted to hug him. Heh. I loved how Kemper looked kind of confused when Holden ran away. Dude, how did you expect him to react after you said "I could kill you now pretty easily"?

That was terrifying. I was pretty sure Holden wouldn't be killed but I didn't know if Kemper would try to hurt him and someone would come in or what. When he ran out and went into the panic attack, I really felt that. 

I am loving the hell out of this. Also the late 70s soundtrack kicks ass.   I like this as much if not more than Hannibal, because Hannibal got so off the charts crazy, where you never knew if something was really happening or if it was in Will's mind, etc.  This is just down and dirty trying to stop killers. 

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The series hasn't started to click for me up until this point. Now we've gotten to know our three main characters, and there's a balance between the three which is nice, because I find Holden on his own pretty dull. There are now some things in motion - they are finally applying all the theoretical stuff they were blabbing about during the first three episodes to real cases.

I'm wondering if a ton of people just binged on all ten episodes. I noticed there's not much activity for individual episodes, but there's a lot of commentary under episode 10.

Now that I'm finally engaged with the show, I kinda want to discuss, but it's awfully empty!

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Love the relationship between Holden and Bill. Nice to things develop between them since the first episode. 

I don't care for Debbie. I find the relationship with Holden to be very boring.  

Happy Anna Torv finally showed up. I like her character so far. 

Glad they solved a case but I wonder about the case mentioned to them in the first episode.  I keep thinking that will come back.

They keep showing that creepy guy now. At least in episode 2 and 3.

Will watch 4 and 5 later tonight.  This show works well to binge but also some time to process what we learned.

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I too, loved it. Cannot wait for season 2. Slow is ok because of what they are trying to show here (for me at least), the forging of a new scientific methodology and all the ups and downs of convincing others. Hope this goes for more than 2 seasons. I suspected that was BTK, right out of the box and had to Google the town, yup they are showing BTK on the horizon. I think the point of that is to show that there is always someone else out there to catch or figure out. Hated the girlfriend. It was like she didn't even like him, but wanted to be better and smarter than him and disliked that she was not his center of everything. 

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I really like Tench as well - not familiar with this actor's work, but he feels like a true world-weary cop who's willing and trying to accept new ideas.

Tench was played by Holt McCallany, a solid HITG of the last 20 or so years, usually playing cops and other assorted tough guy types. Before this, I knew him best from Fight Club, as the character who initiates the "His name is Robert Paulson" chant. But I do believe Mindhunter, and his character Tench, will definitely go down in his oeuvre (thanks Ed Kemper) as his signature role.

And slightly off-topic, Holt McCallany morphed into Stacy Keach so gradually, I didn't even notice. ;)

Quote

I agree on not seeing it as a grey area, but I did think this was an effective depiction of the risks of applying Holden's pre-crime methods.  I think we're supposed to see the principal as possibly skeevy and possibly not; we can't tell what he might do, but he loses his job/career anyway.  (Did people generally know about tickle-fetishes in 1977?)  

Back in 1977, the public didn't really know about fetishes in general, let alone specific ones like tickling. Or perhaps I should say it wasn't something people would have any general knowledge about it. Obviously these kinks existed, and people either had them or may have encountered them. But it was something they would have kept to themselves. I mean there was no place like this forum where a casual discussion could take place. And even the pornography industry did very little to cater to that type of thing back then. The average person probably didn't even think something like tickling, which 99.99% of the time is innocent, would even be considered a turn on.  It is strange to consider, especially from a modern perspective, where anything and everything that could possibly turn you on is easily accessible.

Edited by reggiejax
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I can see the girlfriend's side of things, as scripted, because every time she talks to him about her life, Holden somehow turns the topic back on him and his work. And he got less and less open to criticism. Maybe she would have been more likeable with a better actress. Usually when everybody else is saying someone's acting is bad, I'm the one going "really? I didn't notice anything off about it. It was fine." But this time even I noticed the bad acting.

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12 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

I'm assuming that the ADT guy is Dennis Rader, the BTK killer.  He looks a little like Rader, is in Wichita Kansas, and, Rader, like the ADT guy, worked for a home security firm at one point.

That is my guess as well. They keep showing him so he has to be important.

Loved the end scene seeing them start to smile was nice.

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This was a good episode and didn't end with the music playing like the others have. 

Glad the cop Mark who has been screwing up started to get his stuff together.

I knew something was up with Frank.

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8 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

The series hasn't started to click for me up until this point. Now we've gotten to know our three main characters, and there's a balance between the three which is nice, because I find Holden on his own pretty dull. There are now some things in motion - they are finally applying all the theoretical stuff they were blabbing about during the first three episodes to real cases.

I'm wondering if a ton of people just binged on all ten episodes. I noticed there's not much activity for individual episodes, but there's a lot of commentary under episode 10.

Now that I'm finally engaged with the show, I kinda want to discuss, but it's awfully empty!

Honestly, it's a little hard to formulate my thoughts before seeing all the episodes.  I will say, however, that if any adult,  much less a principal, had been tickling my son's feet without permission for any reason, my Brooklyn-raised husband probably would have gone to jail for battery.  He mostly used words, lots of words, to get his point across, but anyone who tried to hurt a member of the family got a physical response.  I guess things were that different back then to account for the lack of police response, but holy moly, how could anyone think it was harmless?  Yuck.  

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I liked the BTK interspersed throughout each episode, as this meticulous, clever, patient, sort of "apex" serial killer.

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that Douglas did profiling work on BTK but they were (obviously) unable to bring him to justice for so long.  BTK might end up being a bit of a white whale for the Holden character in the next season or two.

Please say this is the end of the girlfriend, because that actress is just not giving it, nor am I feeling any kind of chemistry between the two of them, so what's the point of her?  To call out his actions as exploitative, manipulative, etc?  Do we need her to do that, or can't the rest of the team act as Holden's moral police.

I'm also not sold on the toothless villain that they tried to sell us with the boss.  He would come down and shake his fist, but nothing ever happened.  There needs to be real stakes for the future of the department.  I'm 100% positive it's going to be alright.

There were only 4 interviews this season for the study.  Why not more?  1 per episode or more.  Skip all the personal drama that was boooooooring and you've got more time for crime-y talk.

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What I thought was especially interesting about this episode - the DA didn't think jurors would understand how all three are responsible for Beverly's death. And that's probably true. I barely understood it myself, and I'm living in a far less innocent time than they are, relatively speaking.

I think to this day we still understand far too little about why people kill, even though we have more information now than they did in the 70s, and we're exposed to that information just by watching TV.

And some would argue it's ghoulish to use this kind of material in entertainment at all, that only law enforcement should know about this stuff. But I would argue the general public need this information, we can even use more more it, because any one of us could be called upon to serve on a jury. We need to understand why someone like Frank is dangerous. Even now, guys like Frank are set loose far too often.

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2 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

I knew something was up with Frank.

I knew as soon as the mother mentioned Rose's husband, Frank, who Benji followed around. 

And that Rose would be involved.

Spoilered because I don't remember if it's from this ep or the next. Too many crime shows.

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Yeah, I don't know why Holden didn't just tell Debbie he just saw a serial killer masturbate to a pair of high heels, he tells her all his work stuff to an over-sharing extent all the time. Heh.

2 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

I'm also not sold on the toothless villain that they tried to sell us with the boss.  He would come down and shake his fist, but nothing ever happened.  There needs to be real stakes for the future of the department.  I'm 100% positive it's going to be alright.

I don't think the boss was ever supposed to be a villain. He's old school and he's grumpy, but he's always trying to do the right thing.

It's never going to be believable if the show tries to convince us the department could get shut down. We're watching this from the future so we know they didn't get shut down. But it's interesting to see the hurdles they faced nonetheless. I can hardly believe what a big deal cuss words used to be. Shit, it was like they were running a kindergarten.

It's the little things that makes this show, as far as I'm concerned. Such as the little WTF looks the characters exchange with each other all the time. I love those.

Probably helps that I got very invested in the main character. I can't wait to see what happens to him next!

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Everyone was acting shifty, even the mom in the church, so everyone they talked to, I was like "he/she did it!" I'm bound to be right eventually! Heh.

I don't know how anyone manages to stop and post after this episode. The episode ends right on "Which one of them did it?" "I don't know." Give me the next episode right now! Good thing this is Netflix.

These Netflix show episodes are like chapters in a book. Hard to put down a book after each chapter to discuss that chapter.

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21 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

I'm assuming that the ADT guy is Dennis Rader, the BTK killer.  He looks a little like Rader, is in Wichita Kansas, and, Rader, like the ADT guy, worked for a home security firm at one point.

This was my guess, as well. 

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On 10/15/2017 at 2:57 AM, Cheezwiz said:

I was so excited to watch this, as I'm a huge David Fincher fan, but sadly I'm not on board so far. Really hoping it gets better, or I'm going to have to throw in the towel.

I'm normally very patient with slow-burning drama, and I LOVE investigative procedurals, but this is just deadly boring. After a promising (shocking) start, it just slowed to a crawl. I'm not finding the lead remotely interesting - there's nothing compelling about his character. Not sure if it's the actor, or the way he's written, or both. A running gag in the show is that people assume he's a Mormon because of his conservative dress. I'm starting to think his character would be more interesting if he WERE a Mormon. I also hate the girlfriend character - their dialogue is so stiff and awkward, not the way actual people speak at all. Not sensing any spark, and their sex scenes seem oddly tossed in and gratuitous.

The biggest problem I'm seeing with this show, is that there is no dramatic tension whatsoever. I get that it's about the early beginnings of profiling, but so far, It's basically like sitting in a  series of criminology lectures. There are no stakes, it's just people discussing theories.

Silence of the Lambs worked because the Feds were interviewing a criminal and racing against the clock to catch a killer. Zodiac had a ton of scenes with guys sitting around in rooms talking, but it worked because there was an overarching plot which was insanely gripping, mixed with a few genuinely hair-raising set-pieces. It was an incredibly well-mondulated film, and I was expecting more of the same.

So far this is just guys sitting around in rooms talking. You disappoint me David Fincher.

This perfectly summed up my thoughts on the pilot. I ended up turning it off with about 15 mins to go, and I don't plan on watching more. 

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1 hour ago, cmfran said:

This perfectly summed up my thoughts on the pilot. I ended up turning it off with about 15 mins to go, and I don't plan on watching more. 

I would say that the first episode is slow and a little heavy in exposition and character introductions. The show steps up several gears in episode two, so it might be worth pushing through until then.  

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4 episodes in and I'm really liking this show. It's kind of mind-blowing that the concept of 'serial killer' (or 'sequence killer' as it is at this point in show) had to be developed. Interesting theory about the chaos of the world bringing this out in people. There were obviously ones in the past, but nothing had been developed to define and profile them. The Ron Howard cop's slow realization that this was a 'thing' and that there were people in his world who did it was nicely done.

The bar scene after the wreck - was the older guy (Tench?) trying to say he sees Holden as his son?

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Finally got to watch ep1 last night. I loved it. Now I'm a ride or die Fincher fan so maybe I'm just hardwired to like his style and pacing choices, but I thought it was very well crafted. 

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11 hours ago, Bec said:

I can hardly believe what a big deal cuss words used to be. Shit, it was like they were running a kindergarten.

I had a hard time with that as well. Police use whatever behavior they think will elicit a reaction during interrogations (and hostage situations, which Holden used to do). If law enforcement officers choose to connect with a suspect by using "dirty" language, so fucking what? That Holden's "ripe" questions required a conspiratorial cover up was ridiculous to me.

I dunno about Debbie. I guess she was meant to be a counterpoint to Holden's conservatism, and her drug-taking, hippy-ish world view, and sociology studies challenged his preconceptions and helped open his mind. Except I didn't see any of that and his mind stayed pretty closed. He still wore his damned suit and tie everywhere. I thought the two actors were fine but was never able to figure out what the two characters saw in each other.

Edited by 2727
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I enjoyed it, also a big Fincher fan. I didn't mind the pacing, one of my favorite movies is Zodiac and there are a lot of conversations in that, so I'm used to it. I think Jonathan Groff has the loveliest speaking voice. Too bad he can't just break into song in an ep or two!

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I watched the whole series over the past week.  I had a hard time distinguishing it in my mind from the Unabomber series, honestly.  Also, speaking of baggage, I grew up during the 70s and the cars/music/clothes don't appeal to me at all so I had a hard time not hating the atmosphere.  (I simply couldn't even watch Stranger Things and Halt and Catch Fire for the same reason.)

That said, I thought the lead actor was fine.  The partner Bill was fucking amazing.  The female professor was just terrible -- she spent the whole series looking and acting like someone farted.  She was painful to watch with her acting choices.  I won't be seeking that actress out again unless she can show some range.

The girlfriend's acting is so bad I can't even describe how bad it is.

 

Meanwhile, the casting of the serial killers was outstanding.  I was distracted by the bad makeup on the redhead but otherwise he was fine.  Dennis Raider is creepy enough but we really haven't seen him take action yet.  I assume that's the draw for series two?  In series one we see the development of the profession  and the concept of profiling but in series two we see them stymied by a real life serial killer?

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Yes, the one with the dinner party. I'm thinking autism... but the show hasn't made it clear. They hint at maybe something in his previous life, before adoption, causing his behavior, which may be fitting for the show.... if he was, in fact, mistreated. That might be the whole reason for that storyline. Who knows, though.

Edited by Bcharmer
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2 hours ago, cpcathy said:

 I think Jonathan Groff has the loveliest speaking voice. 

Seriously! I said to my husband when we were watching that I could listen to him narrate all day.

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