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All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

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5 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

An update on Pam Hupp, for those who follow her crazy. She was in court today and they played her first interview with police after her most recent (alleged) murder. She’s basically blaming it on the local reporter who figured out the whole plot with her first victim. 

Pam Hupp blames Fox 2 reporter for Gumpenberger killing during police interview
http://via.fox2now.com/0JWIX

So, the reporter made her do it?  Incredible.  

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On 11/17/2018 at 12:37 AM, Lizzing said:

And maybe I need to go on a true crime diet, but I better than half suspected that some kind of incest relationship going on with Kerrie and Lloyd was going to be revealed.  I was glad to be wrong on that.

I had the same thought. I was cringing at the surveillance camera footage from the hotel. 

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It's still possible that that kind of relationship did exist and that neither party revealed it.  Or maybe not talking about it was a condition of the daughter's cooperation with the show.  Who knows?  Their connection was so crazy that it's hard to imagine some kind of sexual component not being part of it.  Narcissists like the father often look to their daughters after the mother ages and puts on weight, because they feel they deserve "better."  Ugh.

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No comments yet on last Friday's Dateline?   Well I'll be first and say that this one seems to be another story where there could have been more background.   They should have gotten into the woman's drug use (and what kinds of drugs they were).  And what was she hoping to accomplish by bumping off her husband in the first place?  SOMEBODY had to have money - Carlsbad is NOT a cheap place to live.  Just lots of questions on this story.  

And to go off topic - there was just a bizarre murder case in New Jersey.  A family of four was murdered in a very upscale area - the husband was shot multiple times and found on the lawn; the wife and two kids were stabbed and the house was set on fire.  The really odd thing was that the dead guy's brother was arrested after his house was set on fire with his family still in it (they escaped).  The brother is saying he isn't guilty of either setting any house on fire or murder, but this is probably gonna be an interesting case.   A future Dateline in the making for sure!

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I thought there’d be more comments on the crazy Carlsbad lady and the fact that she had a baby through ivf during her trials. Like seriously wtf? I don’t know if she was abused or not but her “crying” of whatever the hell it was on the stand was one of the fakest displays I’ve ever seen and I watch all these shows so I’ve seen some really bad acting by defendants. She was batshit. 

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That Carlsbad case was crazy. I believe Julie Harper was guilty of murder and I don't believe her abuse claims at all. It really upsets me when people make false allegations (or coach children to make false allegations) of abuse because it makes people question real abuse allegations. The fact that no one saw marks or bruises doesn't really sway me since some men are good at keeping the abuse to areas that aren't easily visible, but her behavior and even her video "evidence" contradicted her claims. For one thing, Jason didn't know that he was being taped while she did so her calm demeanor meant nothing. His yelling didn't seem abusive to me. While it's not appropriate to yell at someone, it's pretty normal and common and the stuff he was saying sounded like the normal things couples yell about when having an argument. People also use swear words when they're angry. I'm not excusing his behavior but he sounded more like someone who was venting his frustrations at their partner (in an inappropriate but not abusive) way, rather than someone who was threatening or controlling. The fact that she had the video made me think the murder was preplanned because why take the video at all unless she was going to try to use it against him in custody or divorce proceedings, though the audio portion would be inadmissible since he was not aware he was being recorded.

She was also completely unbelievable on the stand in both trials. I don't know how the first jury fell for anything she said. She was a terrible actress and those tears and emotional breakdowns looked obviously fake. She kept looking up while testifying in the first trial and closing her eyes in the second in the way someone would do if they were lying. The falling apart on the stand was both to create sympathy but also to try to create plausible reason why she would need to pause as liars need to do because they're not recalling something that actually happened but trying to remember details of the story they made up. The physical evidence also didn't match her story. He was shot from behind and she claimed he was coming at her. How did the first jury miss that? They said she was the only witness for the defense, which means they didn't have an expert to contradict the state's claim. Her behavior was also not consistent with someone who didn't mean to shoot their husband. In that situation I wouldn't expect her to not immediately report it or tell someone, and refuse to talk to the police (with an attorney present, of course). I can't see any person in the situation she described going out for coffee and then taking their children to an indoor kids' gym. 

And her getting pregnant while she was either still on trial for murder or between murder trials was so loony toons. It was clearly to delay her second trial or to somehow create sympathy. Anyone who had a child's best interests at heart, would not intentionally get pregnant when there is the chance that you might go to prison for decades and wouldn't be able to raise that child. Julie Harper struck me as a psychopath, although contrary to what the D.A. said, I didn't think she was very smart. What an awful story. I'm glad Jason's parents are raising her children with him. I wish the IVF child had been able to remain with her siblings because I think that it would be the best thing for her. She may not have any relationship with them since her foster parents (the maternal grandfather) and the paternal grandparents are likely not on the best terms and will be raising them to have completely different narratives of the children's mother. What a selfish woman to intentionally bring a baby into that situation.

Edited by glowbug
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Oh ya and another thing I don’t remember them really explaining or asking about. At the beginning it showed that he was shot in side of his back but her story was hecwas coming at her so how would the shot have gone through his back/side? 

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1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

The Rachel Buffett-Daniel Wozniak case is being wrapped up now on Dateline. If you missed it ...

I can’t believe it took 5 years for Dan to go to trial and 3 more years for Rachel.  I can’t imagine what that does to a murder victims family members.

Did we know any of this about Rachel in the earlier episode about these murders? I don’t temember her being a suspect. I also don’t remember the two friends interviewed this time being interviewed last time.  

Edited by mythoughtis
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I think the two friends just decided that it was time for them to tell the full truth....because they both strongly believed Rachel was involved from the start.

And I do believe the one friend who actually saw Dan with with Sam amd was witness to Dan's bringing home the $400 would have been killed if he'd gone back to their apartment.

Apparently, after all the years of investigation, the motive was getting money to pay their apartment rent.  Awful.

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I feel like my mind has been completely blown tonight. First I watched a documentary on YouTube about Gypsy Rose Blanchard, then I watched Dateline about Dan and his fiancée. I mentioned in a previous post how crimes like this show how utterly unpredictable and unknowable people are, and these 2 cases were perfect cases in point. 

I actually rewound the part where Dan just says "I did it" to see if I could see the detectives faces. They must have been gobsmacked. It was like a scene from a badly written movie. No wonder they asked what his motive was. It sure wasn't obvious, particularly Julie. I'm still not sure I understand his motivation. Did he genuinely think loan sharks were coming after him? Was this all set off by their friend's lie? Again, it's completely ridiculous and improbable, yet it happened. 

I couldn't tell if the fiancée was genuinely guilty, or just had no affect whatsoever, although that seems like a strange trait for an actress. Curiouser and curiouser. 

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Maybe I’m jaded by just watching the original, but I think it’s chintzy to basically replay ~50% of an earlier episode (that isn’t THAT old) and hail it as a new one. 

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1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

I can’t believe it took 5 years for Dan to go to trial and 3 more years for Rachel.  I can’t imagine what that does to a murder victims family members.

I live in a small town, westernmost county in NC. We have EIGHT murder trials that have not yet happened. Some from years ago. A friend of mine’s husband was murdered and I offered to go to court with her. I told her it may be a long time before he ever goes to prison. They decided not to give the option of the death penalty. Her husband was gunned down in front of the store where she works by a kid they treated like family. It’s like that everywhere. This episode just showed it for how the court system works when attorneys file for continuances again and again.

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11 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Did we know any of this about Rachel in the earlier episode about these murders? I don’t temember her being a suspect. I also don’t remember the two friends interviewed this time being interviewed last time.  

It's been a while since I saw the original Dateline story, but Rachel was suspected of being involved because of some of the phone calls to Dan which sounded rehearsed to the detectives.  Also, the impression was that Dan basically sacrificed himself by confessing, so that Rachel didn't go to jail -- that his last decent act as a human was to save his fiancee from jail time.  Those two witnesses weren't in the earlier story but I appreciate them coming forward because I felt that Rachel was guilty and their testimony helped get her busted.

That earlier Dateline episode made it seem like Dan stole the money in order to afford a fancier wedding.  I remember being so disgusted by that - two people died so this monster could get better food, DJ, decorations?   Ugh.

Edited by patty1h
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26 minutes ago, patty1h said:

It's been a while since I saw the original Dateline story, but Rachel was suspected of being involved because of some of the phone calls to Dan which sounded rehearsed to the detectives.  Also, the impression was that Dan basically sacrificed himself by confessing, so that Rachel didn't go to jail -- that his last decent act as a human was to save his fiancee from jail time.  Those two witnesses weren't in the earlier story but I appreciate them coming forward because I felt that Rachel was guilty and their testimony helped get her busted.

That earlier Dateline episode made it seem like Dan stole the money in order to afford a fancier wedding.  I remember being so disgusted by that - two people died so this monster could get better food, DJ, decorations?   Ugh.

Rachel tried to make it sound like the money was needed because they were going to be evicted from their apartment, etc.  That was her ploy with the friend who eventually realized she was a liar, etc. anyway.  She also conveniently was seen searching by that friend looking on line for jobs and other apartments....to stress how desperate they were.  I believe it was for the "grander" wedding however.

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I must have only seen the 48 Hours version of this because I didn’t remember any of the interviews. I do remember thinking Rachel knew a lot more based solely on those calls.

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Maybe I’m jaded by just watching the original, but I think it’s chintzy to basically replay ~50% of an earlier episode (that isn’t THAT old) and hail it as a new one. 

I guess it speaks to how many of these types of shows I watch, because I did not remember this story, even having seen it before. As it unfolded here I recalled just vaguely having seen it before but remembered none of the specifics. 

I think the really damning thing about Rachel was the call she made to the musician friend trying to get him to come back to the apartment, clearly so they could kill him. It must be so chilling to know you were that close to getting murdered.

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17 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think the really damning thing about Rachel was the call she made to the musician friend trying to get him to come back to the apartment, clearly so they could kill him.

Yes, because if we knew anything at all about Rachel and Dan by then it's that they would never  be concerned about keeping money that wasn't owed them.  It was their entitled belief that they could get by in life without actually working that led to everything.  Their delusion that they should have a big wedding and go on a honeymoon when they couldn't come up with the rent was so odd it bordered on mental illness. I still can't get my mind around the absolute pointlessness of the young woman's death.  What made Dan think that a dead young woman in that apartment would make sense of the young man's murder?  And as her poor mother said, why in the world leave her body in such a humiliating position?

  I'll bet they both thought they were just a few steps  away from being movie stars, too.  I'd like to tell them he was far too fat faced to ever make it in the movies and she was only Dateline beautiful. 

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2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'll bet they both thought they were just a few steps  away from being movie stars, too.  I'd like to tell them he was far too fat faced to ever make it in the movies and she was only Dateline beautiful

😂 I was thinking the same thing! They look like poor man versions of jack black and Sarah Michelle geller. (No disrespect to black and geller!)

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2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I still can't get my mind around the absolute pointlessness of the young woman's death. 

Totally agree.  Did they mention on this episode that Sam was found in the attic of another theater? I read in a news story that Dan lured Sam to that theater to kill him because it was on an army base that had an incinerator - which was why Dan dismembered Sam to get rid of his body that way.   

The original Dateline was 2 hours, can't believe they crammed this new version, with all the updates, into one hour. They should have reversed it: original being 1 hour, this one being two.  I remember the first episode going more into Wesley, the kid who ordered pizza - why??    I do recall thinking Rachel was totally involved though, she's not as good an actress as she thought.  Get this: Rachel has made herself an IMDB page, with her only credits as being 'self' on the Dateline and 20/20 eps relating to this story.  Sick.

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2 minutes ago, Janc said:

Get this: Rachel has made herself an IMDB page, with her only credits as being 'self' on the Dateline and 20/20 eps relating to this story.  Sick.

...oh, my god, seriously? 

Wow. Wow

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8 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

...oh, my god, seriously? 

Wow. Wow

Should have linked it.  OK TBH, maybe she didn't create it herself, but who else would?

Edited by Janc
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3 minutes ago, Janc said:

Should have linked it.  TBH, maybe she didn't create it herself, but who else would?

Exactly. Whether she did or not, it's bizarre as hell either way. 

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I'd bet 400 dollars minus 10 that she wrote it, because she lists her role as, "Self --  Dan Wozniak's fiancé" where anyone else would have said, "Self -- accomplice to murder, liar and mega-bridezilla."

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I was thinking the same thing! They look like poor man versions of jack black and Sarah Michelle geller. 

I thought Rachel reminded me of Anna Faris. 

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10 hours ago, Janc said:

Should have linked it.  OK TBH, maybe she didn't create it herself, but who else would?

Someone with a dark side. She’s never been on TV or in movies, has she? Still, that’s like asking for stalkers.

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1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

I felt so badly for her parents, and was infuriated by the lameass cop who did no investigating. And then sided with the murderer.

Same. I can't believe how pathetic that investigation was. And the response to why the case stalled for so long. "Laziness." He just said it so nonchalantly, too. Like, you guys get that a woman was murdered and her killer's roaming free here, right? Good lord. 

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It has been a long while since the cops in a Dateline seriously pissed me off, so it was bound to happen again sooner or later.  JFC, how did the supervisor cop still have a job after his detective dropped the ball so many times?  And the detective complained about the murder victim's family bugging him?  Did the supervisor tell him to STFU and investigate?  Didn't seem like it.  Hell, if I were the DA I'd be charging most of the sheriff's department on theft of government funds because they sure as shit weren't doing their jobs when they were on the clock, and throw in some malfeasance charges where applicable.  The way the crime scene was managed made the OJ murder scene look like a text book version of HOW to do it, rather than how not to do it.

Ugh...so much stupid at once.  And I do not understand how the murder's family ever gets custody when the victim's family has one person, even third cousin, twice removed, to raise the kids.  The parents of the victim need a good custody lawyer.

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25 minutes ago, Lizzing said:

The parents of the victim need a good custody lawyer.

Heck yeah. The one thing we know for certain about Brad's parents is that they once raised a murderer.

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It seemed so strange to me that Cassy's parents didn't say a word about the craziness of who got custody, or that they were trying to fight it and get the children.  I guess it's possible they don't want to raise small kids at their age.  But Cassy also had two siblings, who were on camera talking about her murder, and they didn't say anything about wanting to take her children either.  Nothing about a custody challenge in the on-screen text at the end either.  Leading viewers to believe that everyone's fine with that arrangement.  I sure wouldn't be if those were my sister's kids.  To me that was the most bizarre fact that emerged from the whole case.

I do wonder, also, why a young woman who was going on to be a nurse didn't seem to know how to prevent having babies.  Sometimes I get the idea that half these cases would never escalate to the point of murder if people just remembered there's such a thing as birth control. 

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The entire case was crazy. And the ones that will suffer the most are the kids. I can’t believe the cop and his supervisor still had jobs after that.

Our sheriff’s dept here in Cherokee County, NC is under investigation by the SBI. A prisoner died in jail, another one severely beaten, one was handcuffed to a floor drain and he was naked. Two officers fired, more quit once emails were published showing the sheriff knew all about the abuse and did nothing. Keep an eye out for our small town sheriff’s dept to be on Dateline one day.

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I was just infuriated watching this.  That police department was a disgrace.  They had to bring a retired cop back to straighten it out.  

I was also not happy that they waited till about 40 or 45 minutes into the show to reveal the ex husband had been a cop.  They wanted us to be suspecting the guy that fled to Alaska or the live-in boyfriend.  I kept wondering why they never mentioned the ex who was the father of the kids.  He should have been a suspect immediately.  

They sure loved their sunflowers.  Both the land lady and one of the women on the stand was wearing one.  They also decorated the grave.  I suspect sunflowers might be the flower of that area.  

There was just so much left out of this episode.  They always seem to make the wrong episodes the one hour ones and then drag out the two hour episodes.  I wanted to hear what the land lady said about her husband and his relationship with Cassy.  

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13 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Silver City, NM: Did Keith say the children were living with the murderer’s family? I wonder why. 

Most likely because the fathers parental rights haven’t been terminated yet.  He gets to say who gets custody while that happens.  Once settled, the court may decide not to move the kids if they are doing well. 

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Someone explained the custody issue on FB....

"As soon as brad was arrested, he gave his sister full custody. 
Brad never told the kids their mother was dead. When they had the funeral he made them sit in the back. They assumed that Cassy left with David... and didn’t want them. Cassys parents got a lawyer, however, Arizona sided with the Farringtons. They had only heard his mother’s side, so they automatically took his side. They let cassys parents see the kids on stipulations... she couldn’t even have pictures of cassy in the home, or say anything about brad. Cassys mom was very emotional at the time... and Tristan was asking questions and because she answered them they violated the stipulations. Now her parents are unable to see Lila and Tristan."

Edited by TVbitch
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2 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

Brad never told the kids their mother was dead. When they had the funeral he made them sit in the back. They assumed that Cassy left with David... and didn’t want them.

Damn. That's really cold. 

What a mess. 

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It has been a long while since the cops in a Dateline seriously pissed me off, so it was bound to happen again sooner or later.  JFC, how did the supervisor cop still have a job after his detective dropped the ball so many times?  And the detective complained about the murder victim's family bugging him?  Did the supervisor tell him to STFU and investigate?  Didn't seem like it.  Hell, if I were the DA I'd be charging most of the sheriff's department on theft of government funds because they sure as shit weren't doing their jobs when they were on the clock, and throw in some malfeasance charges where applicable. 

The stupidity and corruption seemed to go all the way up to the DA's office. None of them seemed any too bright.

On top of that, Dateline's misdirect focusing the first 30 minutes on the landlord pissed me off because if they had told us from the start that Cassy was going through a "nasty" custody fight with her ex-husband we would have known who the killer was from the start. There was never any mystery to this case at all.

The main takeaway from this episode? Don't get murdered in Silver City, NM.

Edited by iMonrey
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4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The main takeaway from this episode? Don't get murdered in Silver City, NM.

Alternatively, if you're wanting to murder someone, Silver City seems like the place to set up camp!  Pam Hupp might have found a new home.

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I lived in that area for 10 years, and believe me, if your family has been there for years, you'll never get convicted of anything.      Custody, divorce, any dispute goes in favor of the locals, and if you have money nothing ever happens to you.  

I know there's no way to put that on a review for an area, but how insider friendly the criminal justice system is in an area would discourage me from ever moving back to that area.      

Edited by CrazyInAlabama
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Tonight’s episode may have been a rerun but I had not seen it. The case of the woman who quickly married a man then killed him with antifreeze for his life insurance money. And also killed her baby years ago. This would have been better as a 2-hr episode, I will have to look up the actual case to get all the info they left out.

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7 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Someone explained the custody issue on FB....

"As soon as brad was arrested, he gave his sister full custody. 
Brad never told the kids their mother was dead. When they had the funeral he made them sit in the back. They assumed that Cassy left with David... and didn’t want them. Cassys parents got a lawyer, however, Arizona sided with the Farringtons. They had only heard his mother’s side, so they automatically took his side. They let cassys parents see the kids on stipulations... she couldn’t even have pictures of cassy in the home, or say anything about brad. Cassys mom was very emotional at the time... and Tristan was asking questions and because she answered them they violated the stipulations. Now her parents are unable to see Lila and Tristan."

OMG, that is unbelievable! How could stipulations like that even be legal. Sounds like a free speech violation. That case needs to be revisited. I hope her parents are appealing.

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5 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

OMG, that is unbelievable! How could stipulations like that even be legal. Sounds like a free speech violation. That case needs to be revisited. I hope her parents are appealing.

Child custody cases can be very tricky, and all too often the courts have to deal with one party, or both, trying to poison the children against the other in all kinds of vicious ways.  Perhaps in this case the facts weren't all that clear yet, and until the father was actually convicted, the court couldn't allow him to be painted as a murderer to his children.  (Not saying it's right or just, but that may be how it went down).

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I want to know what the hell was up with that "game" where he bound the kids up with tape (painters tape?) and took pictures of those poor babies crying. Fucking hell. I seriously hope he is not faring well in prison being an ex-police officer.

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1 hour ago, tobeannounced said:

I want to know what the hell was up with that "game" where he bound the kids up with tape (painters tape?) and took pictures of those poor babies crying. Fucking hell.

YES! That was disturbing. 

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The New Mexico case was so unusual in that the murderer's family had custody of the kids. I think every other case I've seen on Dateline where one parent was convicted of killing another the children were with the victim's family. I hate to say this but often abusive behavior stems from witnessing or being on the receiving end of abuse. Maybe Brad was just  a bad apple in his family, but it's more likely than not that he came from an abusive household (child abuse, domestic violence, or both). Unless the mother's family has been demonstratively abusive or neglectful, or they did not want the children, which wasn't the case here, then they should have been awarded custody. The perpetrator should get absolutely no say in who the children live with. In a way, he got what he wanted. The mother didn't get the kids and, while he doesn't have them either, his family does. Given how corrupt and/or incompetent the police and district attorney were, I'm not surprised that the custody case was screwed up as well. Based on what they showed us on Dateline I think the DA was lucky they got a conviction given how terrible the investigation was.

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I feel like a much more interesting subject for this episode would have been child custody laws and how they affect these situations, but then again that wouldn't really be typical Dateline material. I agree that the father's parents were probably kind of screwy themselves because look at what they've done to prevent Cassy's parents from seeing their grandchildren. They're not right in the head either. I'd be interested to know whether Cassy's parents have filed any petitions for visitation or shared custody. 

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