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Escaping Polygamy

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4 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

Wasn't it the daughter that brought the health dept. to her mom's home to try to help get her out of there? I agree that the mom has come off a bit manic or something just not right. She didn't want to sign off on things at that time even though the health dept told her how unsafe/healthy her home was. She wouldn't leave at all. She doesn't just have her daughter out there. I think her brother and a sister may have already left long ago and try to help as well in ways. Which her mental state is something I wonder about with many because of how they marry each other in Kingstons order. There has to be some medical issues with all that "keeping the bloodline pure" bs. 

Correct. Her sister already left. 

I thought the plan was for her to stay with her sister and they'd get her a house set up in the meantime.

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3 hours ago, WireWrap said:

No, the mom made that call, not the daughter but that doesn't mean the daughter didn't encourage her to make it. I wonder if the mother would have made that call or left the Order had she been in a better house, a more favored wife because I'm not so sure she would.

The "informant" or the daughter explained that after Jeff's was arrested the Kinston Order made amends with the FLDS in hopes that they could have access to new bloodlines.

Ok well that I am sure it was pressure from the daughter who wanted to get her out of there. Which makes sense. Agree if she was in a better house there would have been no need to make that call. Yet it seems even some of those that are considered favored wives want out of that at times. 

 And I think it was Jeff's daughter that said after the flood accident happened that some of them went down to the FLDS in order to try to "connect" again since they once were but yet they are so far gone and zombies for Jeffs that it would never happen for them to get in and marry into it at this point. There are so different with how they are run that it would not work. I can't see Jeffs wanting to let go of that hold over those poor people. 

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12 minutes ago, Evil Queen said:

Ok well that I am sure it was pressure from the daughter who wanted to get her out of there. Which makes sense. Agree if she was in a better house there would have been no need to make that call. Yet it seems even some of those that are considered favored wives want out of that at times. 

 And I think it was Jeff's daughter that said after the flood accident happened that some of them went down to the FLDS in order to try to "connect" again since they once were but yet they are so far gone and zombies for Jeffs that it would never happen for them to get in and marry into it at this point. There are so different with how they are run that it would not work. I can't see Jeffs wanting to let go of that hold over those poor people. 

I don't think she would have left had she had favored wife status with the big house and all the rewards that brings, her living conditions/falling down house were her main complaints. Even the second mom that left last night had been a favored wife in the big, fancy house until her son left and she was demoted and severely downgraded. It was only after that did she leave the Order. 

There is a huge difference between the 2 groups. The Order lives in the real world, have computers, cell phones, nice cars (if favored) whereas the FLDS is stripped of everything, including their families if Jeff has a hissy fit. The Order do not marry off their daughters until they are 18, although they will "promise" them to an adult man while they are young, the FLDS marry off 12 year olds and force the females to "Always be Sweet", dress in Prairie style clothing, kick young boys/men out of the community to remove temptation for the girls, are not allowed to wear red clothes and are not allowed to own pets of any kind. The Order is strict but they are more main stream, the FLDS is truly a cult cut off from the real world in every single way.  

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On 8/23/2016 at 8:09 AM, kassa said:

The lady who called the health department seems a bit manic  - I think she's just naturally a catastrophist.

Yes, she did seem stressed and slightly manic. Perhaps through poor nutrition, abusive relationships, poverty, zero education, and the stress of always being pregnant, people's coping skills get eroded, and it won't always be pretty.  But I think her daughters know this won't be fixed in a day, and are doing their best. This really highlight how the church's neglect does lead to adverse mental health outcomes for the woman and children involved.

It amused me that they turned up at her old flat to pick up the piano and stove. Their car was already half full, with no trailer! So I guess they were just having a good snoop at Daniel's renovations for his next beloved wife.

About the FLDS Julie/Lizzie episode, it was obviously a fail, but I hope they keep tackling the FLDS. Lizzie preempted any planning they could do by leaving the cult early without any hint or preview. But I think they should have advised Lizzie earlier about her rights as a birth-mother, that if she could leave the FLDS with her smallest children, then later, she would be able to get access to her daughter via the courts/lawyers.

But given that Julie was defying her mother, I wish they had installed a hidden camera in the hotel room. They needed to know what was going on in there. But since they had no knowledge, they lost control of the situation.

So for the next FLDS breakout, I really hope they bring along FDLS escapee Rachel Jeffs - her input would be invaluable.

I remember watching a documentary years ago about a man who abducted/kidnapped his own brother from the Moonie cult. They held him prisoner in a hotel room for over 3 days, as a team of experts attempted to deprogram him. So it was highly illegal, but yes, he did get his brother back. Such that whenever you drag someone like Julie out of a cult, they will fight tooth and nail. Apostates represent an existential threat to their salvation. That is exactly what you would expect from someone like Julie.

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And the daughter that got taken away..........If Lizzie has drunk the kool-aid this poor girl has had it injected directly in her brain.  I wish I could remember the exact quote but it was so sad when Chanelle told her they were talking to her mother and she said something like she's almost 14 so she's old enough to be a mother.  I bet if she met her future husband tomorrow and he was a 45 year old second cousin she'd line up to marry him with no question and that's just incredibly sad.

 
 
 
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The saving grace is that Warren prohibited marriages and even those who are married are not to have sex (or even hug each other). If he can't rape his child brides, no one can! His cult believes he will come out of prison if they are pious enough.

It may seem cold to say this, but Lizzy should have sent Julie back. She had 3 or 4 more kids she could save and one is a girl. She should, of course, keep trying to reach Julie after that and sue for custody and file a missing's person's report if they hid her, but now she's probably will have all her kids taken away.

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it does make you wonder what they are taught in their schooling. They are obviously not allowed to go to school after a certain age but it makes you wonder what is going on in the schools and how are they allowed to get by on what they are doing for school. Is Utah laxed on schooling?

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The Order has its own school for Order members but I don't think it prepares them for college or anything the order doesn't think they need to learn.

The FLDS has most members living on the border of Utah and Arizona, in a place called Colorado City. They also have their own school. The students are made to stand up and swear to give their lives to save the prophet if necessary. Warren Jeffs also recorded his teachings and the FLDS families listen to them at home. The brainwashing is 24/7. In that same school Warren Jeffs raped many students, including his 5-year-old nephew, he also sexually abused several of his daughters and at least one son.

They are constantly told that outsiders will come to destroy them and that the apostates (people who leave the church) will help the evil gentiles. They can't use the internet or watch TV. The state police know any intervention can end very bad because they are ready and willing to die for the cause. It would be a great accomplishment to them. Also, the politicians and cops (“The God Squad”) are all FLDS in the compound.

The girls and boys have some separate classes. The girls learn to cook, how to sew clothes, how to take care of kids etc. The boys learn construction work. The girls are taught nothing about sex, which is the duty of the husband to explain to them after the marriage. They are also told that wives are literally propriety of their husbands.

The girls are told that motherhood is the greatest goal of a woman's life and to “keep sweet” and never complain, always look happy, obey your husband but if he criticizes the church turn him in because you will only go to heaven if you have a husband worthy, a good priesthood husband. If he goes to heaven he decides the worthy wives that will go with him. If the husband can't control them and keep them submissive, he can have his wives and children taken from him and given to another man.

The girls are also told: you don't want a silly boy, you want a man that can guide you and ensure your salvation,ugh.

The FLDS church also teaches men never went to the moon.

These books, especially the first, gives enormous insight about how girls and boys are raised and taught. Also a great insight into the Jeffs family and Warren himself. Not to mention growing up in a family with multiple mothers and the jealousy and abuse by jealous sister wives:

The Witness Wore Red: The 19th Wife Who Brought Polygamous Cult Leaders to Justice by Rebbecca Musser (nee Wall)

https://www.amazon.com/Witness-Wore-Red-Brought-Polygamous/dp/1455527831

Warren Jeffs had forbidden the color red in the cult. This woman is amazing, she was married to Warren's father (she was 19 and his 19th wife, he was 83). She knows Warren very well and testified twenty times against him and other men who married underage girls, including a couple of her family members. Each time she wore a piece of red clothing. Her sister was forced to marry her abusive cousin when she was 14. Rebecca also testified when Warren was trialed as an accomplice to the rape of her sister. The sister, Elissa Wall, also wrote a book about the abuse she suffered, it's called Stolen Innocence.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=stolen+innocence+by+elissa+wall&sprefix=stolen+inno%2Cstripbooks%2C920

BTW, Elissa only used fake names when it comes to family members. If you read both books, you will be confused by the aliases Elissa used. Rebecca is called Cassandra, Christine is Rachel, Amelia is called Teresa Cole is called Craig (he was the first to “leave” the group because he felt his sisters were being sold out by her father for power – his father ordered his mom to drive him out of town and leave him). Elissa said Craig (her alias for Cole) had helped the FLDS church to fight Amelia for custody of the kid, but she confused the fake names and it was another brother who went to Canada to a reform program with Amelia. Cole is very anti-FLDS, and I admired him a lot, still do, but he is also against serial monogamy apparently and that caused him to fight sometimes with his siblings who left. He kicked Rebbeca out after finding out she was sleeping with her soon to be husband, eventually took her in again, but the boyfriend had to live in his car. He probably felt she was making him look bad by writing about this. He even wrote a little book calling Rebbeca a narcissist and denying much of the abuse they suffered at the hands of another sister wives. His book, however, actually reinforces Rebecca's accounts and I think he was mad because it exposed his family too much, including how his father allowed his first wife to abuse the second wife's kids. He also admits he didn't read the whole book.

Almost all of their full siblings left the FLDS. Her mother chose to stay, their two younger sisters they tried to save, but now don't know where they are. They know both sisters were married off (in their teens) while Warren was on trial, at least one of them became a teenage mother and the other was married to a seventy-something uncle.

The funny (actually there's nothing funny about these cults) thing is that in the FLDS girls dream of being a first wife, in the Order being the first wife means you are the legal wife and it's harder to leave and you have to fight for custody of the kids, etc.

Another thing: In the FLDS all wives live together with the husbands and the kids are encouraged to see them all as mothers. In the Order, each wife has a house of her own. I think it not only allows them to remain hidden but keeps half-siblings from forming familiar bonds with each other in case they decide to marry them, ugh.

Here are some interesting short videos about Warren Jeffs. One has a daughter called Becky discussing the abuse:

His son who left the church and more of Becky Jeffs:

It's amazing how Becky looks like Rachel Jeffs, at first I thought it was Rachel.

This is an amazing documentary called Prophet's Prey:

Trailer:

You can watch it online here: Prophet's Prey

The doc plays pieces of Warren's tapes that the FLDS members listen to at home.

Another good doc:Link

Edited by Dorne2.0 · Reason: I have OCD.
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On 24/08/2016 at 5:58 PM, buttercupia said:

I'm sure it's been brought up here before but Jon Krakauer's book Under the Banner of Heaven is also excellent, as is Escape by Carolyn Jessup.

 
 
 

I read Under The Banner of Heaven and already got Escape by Carolyn right now and the first on my reading list, is it as good as people say it is? Is it very graphic? Because Elissa Wall's was a hard read. And when I read or see something shocking or depressing I can't take it off my head for days, sometimes weeks. Sometimes I need a break for misogyny, there's so sadness I can take at once.

The last documentary I posted shows a lot of people who are still inside the FLDS and worships Warren. It also shows a woman Sabrina and the other on the doc. They left, told the Judge the FLDS had turned their children against them and sued for full custody.

Also, has everyone noticed how infantile and low the FLDS women speak? For sure they were conditioned to that, to sound childish and innocent. It shows how beat down they were since prophets decide everything about their appearance. Rebecca Musser said Rulon's wives had headaches for using their hair very high like the prophet liked, with a lot of hair spray. She hated how the church leader tried to pass their personal preference as rules. Women couldn't wear stripes since Rulon hated it. She was going to wear it to anger Rulon so he would not marry her anymore, but her sisters begged her not to do that, saying it would really upset their father.Elissa Wall said when referring to the religion: If a woman speaks her mind, marry her off and get her pregnant, then keep her pregnant and she's in for life, Ugh.

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Thank you for that post Dorne2.0. I saw Prophet's Prey when it was first on Showtime. It is just sick how these cults are. I haven't read any of the books but I have read things online by some that escaped and told there stories as well. Its just so heartbreaking the things they go through and the kids go through. 

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You're welcome, Evil Queen. Yes, it is heartbreaking.  Rebecca and Elissa's mom said to one of them, cannot remember whom, but she said she "would rather see all her children in a grave than to see them defy The Priesthood". This after Elissa reported on her ex-husband for rape and Warren for being an accomplice.

So fucked up. BTW, Andrea's and Jessica's full sister from the Order who left because she couldn't marry the man she loves and went back when they said she could marry him... not one of her sisters told her she'd have to share the love of her life with God knows how many other wives? Would she be able to feed all her children? 

Edited by Dorne2.0 · Reason: Add a few toughts.
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3 hours ago, Dorne2.0 said:

The saving grace is that Warren prohibited marriages and even those who are married are not to have sex (or even hug each other). If he can't rape his child brides, no one can! His cult believes he will come out of prison if they are pious enough.

It may seem cold to say this, but Lizzy should have sent Julie back. She had 3 or 4 more kids she could save and one is a girl. She should, of course, keep trying to reach Julie after that and sue for custody and file a missing's person's report if they hid her, but now she's probably will have all her kids taken away.

The Order has its own school for Order members but I don't think it prepares them for college or anything the order doesn't think they need to learn.

The FLDS has most members living on the border of Utah and Arizona, in a place called Colorado City. They also have their own school. The students are made to stand up and swear to give their lives to save the prophet if necessary. Warren Jeffs also recorded his teachings and the FLDS families listen to them at home. The brainwashing is 24/7. In that same school Warren Jeffs raped many students, including his 5-year-old nephew, he also sexually abused several of his daughters and at least one son.

They are constantly told that outsiders will come to destroy them and that the apostates (people who leave the church) will help the evil gentiles. They can't use the internet or watch TV. The state police know any intervention can end very bad because they are ready and willing to die for the cause. It would be a great accomplishment to them. Also, the politicians and cops (“The God Squad”) are all FLDS in the compound.

The girls and boys have some separate classes. The girls learn to cook, how to sew clothes, how to take care of kids etc. The boys learn construction work. The girls are taught nothing about sex, which is the duty of the husband to explain to them after the marriage. They are also told that wives are literally propriety of their husbands.

The girls are told that motherhood is the greatest goal of a woman's life and to “keep sweet” and never complain, always look happy, obey your husband but if he criticizes the church turn him in because you will only go to heaven if you have a husband worthy, a good priesthood husband. If he goes to heaven he decides the worthy wives that will go with him. If the husband can't control them and keep them submissive, he can have his wives and children taken from him and given to another man.

The girls are also told: you don't want a silly boy, you want a man that can guide you and ensure your salvation,ugh.

The FLDS church also teaches men never went to the moon.

These books, especially the first, gives enormous insight about how girls and boys are raised and taught. Also a great insight into the Jeffs family and Warren himself. Not to mention growing up in a family with multiple mothers and the jealousy and abuse by jealous sister wives:

The Witness Wore Red: The 19th Wife Who Brought Polygamous Cult Leaders to Justice by Rebbecca Musser (nee Wall)

https://www.amazon.com/Witness-Wore-Red-Brought-Polygamous/dp/1455527831

Warren Jeffs had forbidden the color red in the cult. This woman is amazing, she was married to Warren's father (she was 19 and his 19th wife, he was 83). She knows Warren very well and testified twenty times against him and other men who married underage girls, including a couple of her family members. Each time she wore a piece of red clothing. Her sister was forced to marry her abusive cousin when she was 14. Rebecca also testified when Warren was trialed as an accomplice to the rape of her sister. The sister, Elissa Wall, also wrote a book about the abuse she suffered, it's called Stolen Innocence.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=stolen+innocence+by+elissa+wall&sprefix=stolen+inno%2Cstripbooks%2C920

BTW, Elissa only used fake names when it comes to family members. If you read both books, you will be confused by the aliases Elissa used. Rebecca is called Cassandra, Christine is Rachel, Amelia is called Teresa Cole is called Craig (he was the first to “leave” the group because he felt his sisters were being sold out by her father for power – his father ordered his mom to drive him out of town and leave him). Elissa said Craig (her alias for Cole) had helped the FLDS church to fight Amelia for custody of the kid, but she confused the fake names and it was another brother who went to Canada to a reform program with Amelia. Cole is very anti-FLDS, and I admired him a lot, still do, but he is also against serial monogamy apparently and that caused him to fight sometimes with his siblings who left. He kicked Rebbeca out after finding out she was sleeping with her soon to be husband, eventually took her in again, but the boyfriend had to live on his car. He probably felt she was making him look bad by writing about this. He even wrote a little book calling Rebbeca a narcissist and denying much of the abuse they suffered at the hands of another sister wives. His book, however, actually reinforces Rebecca's accounts and I think he was mad because it exposed his family too much, including how his father allowed his first wife to abuse the second wife's kids. He also admits he didn't read the whole book.

Almost all of their full siblings left the FLDS. Her mother chose to stay, their two younger sisters they tried to save, but now don't know where they are. They know both sisters were married off (in their teens) while Warren was on trial, at least one of them became a teenage mother and the other was married to a seventy-something uncle.

The funny (actually there's nothing funny about these cults) thing is that in the FLDS girls dream of being a first wife, in the Order being the first wife means you are the legal wife and it's harder to leave and you have to fight for custody of the kids, etc.

Another thing: In the FLDS all wives live together with the husbands and the kids are encouraged to see them all as mothers. In the Order, each wife has a house of her own. I think it not only allows them to remain hidden but keeps half-siblings from forming familiar bonds with each other in case they decide to marry them, ugh.

Here are some interesting short videos about Warren Jeffs. One has a daughter called Becky discussing the abuse:

 

His son who left the church and more of Becky Jeffs:

 

It's amazing how Becky looks like Rachel Jeffs, at first I thought it was Rachel.

This is an amazing documentary called Prophet's Prey:

Trailer:

 

You can watch it online here: Prophet's Prey. There's also audio that seems to record Warren's "training sections" where some of his wives are present when he molests his 

The doc plays pieces of Warren's tapes that the FLDS members listen to at home.

Another good doc:Link

There are a number of excellent book on the FLDS, I have read a number of them. I will have to see if there are any on the Kingston Order and the group up in British Columbia Canada that is somewhat tied to the FLDS. I have to wonder if the TV show Sister Wives are connected to the Order or any other more open polygamist group.

1 hour ago, Dorne2.0 said:

I read Under The Banner of Heaven and already got Escape by Carolyn right now and the first on my reading list, is it as good as people say it is? Is it very graphic? Because Elissa Wall's was a hard read. And when I read or see something shocking or depressing I can't take it off my head for days, sometimes weeks. Sometimes I need a break for misogyny, there's so sadness I can take at once.

The last documentary I posted shows a lot of people who are still inside the FLDS and worships Warren. It also shows a woman Sabrina and the other on the doc. They left, told the Judge the FLDS had turned their children against them and sued for full custody.

Also, has everyone noticed how infantile and low the FLDS women speak? For sure they were conditioned for that, to sound childish and innocent. It shows how beat down they were since prophets decide everything about their appearance. Rebecca Musser said Rulon's wives had headaches for using their hair very high like the prophet liked, with a lot of hair spray. She hated how the church leader tried to pass their personal preference as rules. Women couldn't wear stripes since Rulon hated it. She was going to wear it to anger Rulon so he would not marry her anymore, but her sisters begged her not to do that, saying it would really upset their father.Elissa Wall said when referring to the religion: If a woman speaks her mind, marry her off and get her pregnant, then keep her pregnant and she's in for life, Ugh.

If you remove polygamy from the equation, some very strict Orthodox Jewish groups treat their women/female children in much the same way, so much so it is truly frightening. 

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5 minutes ago, WireWrap said:

There are a number of excellent book on the FLDS, I have read a number of them. I will have to see if there are any on the Kingston Order and the group up in British Columbia Canada that is somewhat tied to the FLDS. I have to wonder if the TV show Sister Wives are connected to the Order or any other more open polygamist group.

If you remove polygamy from the equation, some very strict Orthodox Jewish groups treat their women/female children in much the same way, so much so it is truly frightening. 

 

I didn't know this, that's horrible.

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12 minutes ago, Dorne2.0 said:

I didn't know this, that's horrible.

Yes, most Ultra Orthodox Jewish groups segregate themselves from regular society, including other more mainstream Jewish groups, make their members (including men) dress in a specific way (including their hair both male & female), teach them to both use and denounce the government (food stamps/assistance), own all the houses/apartments their members live in, keep the women/female children uneducated, marry youngish (16) girls off (slightly older guys though) and believe that a married woman should pop out a child every year - year and a half. They are scary similar IMO.

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Dorne2.0, that is terrible way to think. It is VERY messed up. It just amazes me with how much is out there on these groups that nothing is done to stop it from going on. Which disgusts me so much. 

Speaking of Sister Wives, I saw an article title (didn't click on it because they are fame whores as well as disgusting) but it was basically saying they were going to try to fight to have polygamy being legal. Sorry but NO! They only ones that do it are these sick freak cults here and are showing relatives together and underage girls to old men. If it was to be legal I can see the next step in them trying to make it ok for all those things to happen too. 

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2 hours ago, WireWrap said:

Yes, most Ultra Orthodox Jewish groups segregate themselves from regular society, including other more mainstream Jewish groups, make their members (including men) dress in a specific way (including their hair both male & female), teach them to both use and denounce the government (food stamps/assistance), own all the houses/apartments their members live in, keep the women/female children uneducated, marry youngish (16) girls off (slightly older guys though) and believe that a married woman should pop out a child every year - year and a half. They are scary similar IMO.

 
 
 

This is very interesting, are marriages forced? I read a lot about Ultra-Orthodox Jewish people on Wiki but they seemed more like the Amish, and yes, 30-40% of them are unemployed. But in all articles, it was written a woman has to consent to the marriage and have the rights to divorce in many circumstances.  Can you provide a link or a reference to those practices? I'm not doubting you, I just am interesting in the subject. They do have lots of children and many are unemployed but they don't seem as horrible as the FLDS, though I reject all organized religions. I was raised catholic and the patriarchy drove me away. A lot of people focus on the Virgen Mary but I could never quite connect with the idea of her. Mary, according to the bible, was conceived without the original sin, you see, because the children inherit the original sin from their parents so in order to be good enough to be the mother of Jesus she needed to be conceived without sex. And according to the Church, she was a virgin her whole life. There's so much focus on the immaculate conception and her virginity, and obedience to God and the perfect example of motherhood that made her unreachable to me. I wanted to have sex someday, and I never wanted (still don't) to be a mother,

Did you know the FLDS and other cults use the fact that Mary was impregnated at 12 years old (Jesus was born when she was thirteen) to justify marrying girls that young to older men?

My Catholic school teacher would say: Mary was your age when she consented to be impregnated, she was engaged to Joseph and could face dire consequences as a single mother if he didn't marry her. All I could think was to be a mother at my age? I don't think I would have agreed. And I would feel incredibly guilty because she was the ideal of perfection, but really complete submission and it made me ill. Not to mention all the virgin martyrs of the Catholic Church. I called them "The Holy Hymens" because I felt my only worth was my hymen and later motherhood (still happily child-free). Mainstream Mormons are not feminists either.

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In the summer of 1993, I spent 3 weeks working on an Anasazi archaeological dig site that was in downtown Colorado City. I mean we were working 5 days a week literally across the street from the church. The folks running the dig through the U of Arizona had been working in that location for at least 5 years, and had a good relationship with the FLDS leadership. One day a middle aged man came strolling through the dig site and chatted with the leaders, followed deferentially by a girl who looked about 14. Otherwise we were ignored, but not in a particularly unfriendly way. We were allowed to go buy things at their one and only grocery store, and every day we would stop at the local gas station on our way out of town to use the bathroom and get snacks. I remember that as the cleanest gas station I've ever encountered, and they only played instrumental show tunes. It was one of the most surreal experiences I've had, with the isolation, the wide empty streets, the women in long dresses ( although at that time they were more colorful), the men in long sleeved shirts buttoned all the way up in the Arizona heat, and the occasional car stuffed full of tow headed children, none of who were in car seats or wearing seatbelts. I don't remember feeling fearful or hated, or anything like the God Squad. It was just like visiting another planet. 

I've only read Carolyn Jessop's book and the one by the woman who was key to Warren Jeff's conviction. I believe Carolyn and I are similar in age. I don't really know the timeline, but I'm thinking I was there either just before or at the beginning of everything going off the rails with the FLDS. I remember some mention of a splinter group from the main church having happened not long before we were there. I would bet that archaeological dig was ended shortly thereafter, as I can't imagine the current FLDS tolerating the presence of outsiders to that extent. 

What I find so striking is how differently the FLDS seem to be operating now vs when Carolyn Jessop was part of it.  10-15 years ago it was all about marrying off the girls, getting and keeping them pregnant, and making a great effort to prevent them from leaving, usually by using their children and other family ties to keep them, but sometimes by forcible kidnapping. Now, with the development of the United Order and Warren Jeffs' commandments to have no physical contact, they seem to be less focused on any pretense of family, instead creating individual autobot zealots. And they don't seem to want the women who leave to come back. During the episode in which Rachel snuck into the family compound to look for her sister, she didn't seem at all concerned that she might be kidnapped and forced back in. Instead it was more that her sister wouldn't or couldn't speak to her, and she didn't want to get the sister in trouble.  It seems the fear control is all emotional/mental rather than physical at this point  

And the whole no touching- which means no breeding - thing goes completely against one of the fundamental things about any type of Mormonism, which is the importance of having lots of kids to bring souls down to earth. I wonder if this is truly just blind following Warren Jeffs who is unstable, contradictory, and as someone said, imposing upon his followers the life he has now. Or if there is an underlying realization that they can't continue to support all of these children even though "bleeding the beast", or that they are too inbred. I'm quite certain it's not because they fear the wrath of the law over underage marriages, since they showed everyone who's boss after the raid in Texas. 

I'm loving the inclusion of the FLDS this season, even as it has shown us (see Lizzie and Julie) that these Kingston women are woefully unprepared to deal with the level of brainwashing going on in the FLDS. They certainly know about brainwashing, but this is a whole new level, from birth in total isolation. They seem to think they can just drive into this insular community and pick up these people. They sorely need an FLDS advisor, including an expert on deprogramming members, starting with showing them the video footage of Warren Jeffs confessing that he's not the prophet and it's all a lie. I really hope that if there's another season we will see that included in their much bigger budget.

Finally, I wonder which head FLDS likes that wacko hairstyle they must all have now. It's fugly. 

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The only thing I know about Orthodox Jews are some of what I have learned from some ladies on the Arranged forum here. Some of us had questions at times or wondered how real things were with a couple on there. They were not Ultra Orthodox though but they were supposedly follow rules in place. Which was asking the Rabbi for permission to not have kids yet and use birth control. They aren't suppose to even sleep in the same bed when she has her period and after it at some point she is supposedly to hand over her underwear for the Rabbi to make sure she is clean or something like that. I know I may not be saying it all in the correct manner. Oh and the whole man is suppose to make the money and support the family while the wife stays home with all the kids they are suppose to have. SMH Oh yeah when dating they were not suppose to be somewhere alone together and couldn't touch (even though they would be alone in his cruddy car). Once married they were allowed to touch and be alone in private for a short time together. As well as they can't dance together. Its a bit much how it is IMO with the way think. The dancing together might lead to sex. The being alone will lead to sex. UGH I am not a religious person myself. I was raised in a so called "Christian home" but that is laughable considering we never went to church, never prayed, and my mother is a narcissistic mental nut.  The only time I had ever gone to church was when I was 5 and under and stayed with Grandparents because they went to church always on the weekends or if I was staying at a friend's place and the family decided they were going to church the next day but I tried to avoid those nights at friend's houses. LOL When I see all these things like this I just have a hard time seeing how religion is so great and wonderful. I don't knock those that believe in their religion. Its just not for me at all. 

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42 minutes ago, Dorne2.0 said:

This is very interesting, are marriages forced? I read a lot about Ultra-Orthodox Jewish people on Wiki but they seemed more like the Amish, and yes, 30-40% of them are unemployed. But in all articles, it was written a woman has to consent to the marriage and have the rights to divorce in many circumstances.  Can you provide a link or a reference to those practices? I'm not doubting you, I just am interesting in the subject. They do have lots of children and many are unemployed but they don't seem as horrible as the FLDS, though I reject all organized religions. I was raised catholic and the patriarchy drove me away. A lot of people focus on the Virgen Mary but I could never quite connect with the idea of her. Mary, according to the bible, was conceived without the original sin, you see, because the children inherit the original sin from their parents so in order to be good enough to be the mother of Jesus she needed to be conceived without sex. And according to the Church, she was a virgin her whole life. There's so much focus on the immaculate conception and her virginity, and obedience to God and the perfect example of motherhood that made her unreachable to me. I wanted to have sex someday, and I never wanted (still don't) to be a mother,

Did you know the FLDS and other cults use the fact that Mary was impregnated at 12 years old (Jesus was born when she was thirteen) to justify marrying girls that young to older men?

My Catholic school teacher would say: Mary was your age when she consented to be impregnated, she was engaged to Joseph and could face dire consequences as a single mother if he didn't marry her. All I could think was to be a mother at my age? I don't think I would have agreed. And I would feel incredibly guilty because she was the ideal of perfection, but really complete submission and it made me ill. Not to mention all the virgin martyrs of the Catholic Church. I called them "The Holy Hymens" because I felt my only worth was my hymen and later motherhood (still happily child-free). Mainstream Mormons are not feminists either.

I Am Forbidden, by Anouk Markovits, Unorthodox, by Deborah Fieldman and Cut Me Loose, by Leah Vincent are 3 books I recommend if you are interested in learning more about some Ultra Orthodox Jewish practices.

Yes, the marriages are arranged and supposedly the girls can say no but it is strongly discouraged, very strongly and they don't meet the potential groom until the parents agree on the marriage beforehand. Also, the engaged couple is never alone until the wedding night after the wedding vows are said and the wife is expected to conceive right away. She has no rights, divorce is rarely granted when a wife requests it ( to obtain a divorce (a Gett), it is done through the lead Rabbi and his advisors of their sect/group, not through the local courts, it is also this group that determine who gets custody of the children). The men control everything and I do mean everything. There really is little difference between the religious practices with the exception of multiple wives.

Yes, they do use Mary but fail to remember that a 12 year old back then was nothing like a 12 year old today, 12 then is more like 18 - 20 now.

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40 minutes ago, WireWrap said:

I Am Forbidden, by Anouk Markovits, Unorthodox, by Deborah Fieldman and Cut Me Loose, by Leah Vincent are 3 books I recommend if you are interested in learning more about some Ultra Orthodox Jewish practices.

Yes, the marriages are arranged and supposedly the girls can say no but it is strongly discouraged, very strongly and they don't meet the potential groom until the parents agree on the marriage beforehand. Also, the engaged couple is never alone until the wedding night after the wedding vows are said and the wife is expected to conceive right away. She has no rights, divorce is rarely granted when a wife requests it ( to obtain a divorce (a Gett), it is done through the lead Rabbi and his advisors of their sect/group, not through the local courts, it is also this group that determine who gets custody of the children). The men control everything and I do mean everything. There really is little difference between the religious practices with the exception of multiple wives.

Yes, they do use Mary but fail to remember that a 12 year old back then was nothing like a 12 year old today, 12 then is more like 18 - 20 now.

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Thank you, I'll read the books when I can. 

I see, the young girls suffer immense pressure from their families and the community to say yes. This is incredibly sad. They make things seem better on paper, but in reality, women only have rights on paper.

Also, I meant Mary was too young to be a mother either way, and God should have waited a few more years and asked her and Joseph to not get married until she was older, lol.

The Mary thing is just an excuse for these pedophiles. I think Warren was testing the people to see how young the brides could be without people started to notice he was a pedo. Of course, the concept of never defying the prophet was so deeply seared into them they would probably accept if he lowered the marriage age even more.

When Rulon, Warren's father ruled, most women got married in their late teens and in their twenties, it depended on the girl's father. Some got married young at 16 years old. Warren dropped the marriage age to fourteen and later 12.

Warren's made his wives and his father's wives fast all the time. When he was on the run and kept his wives hidden in groups in various places with a caretaker he told the guy how to feed and how much, they were encouraged to eat very little to keep themselves small, ugh.

Edited by Dorne2.0
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1 hour ago, Evil Queen said:

They aren't suppose to even sleep in the same bed when she has her period and after it at some point she is supposedly to hand over her underwear for the Rabbi to make sure she is clean or something like that. 

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Jesus Fucking Christ.

 

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UGH I am not a religious person myself. I was raised in a so called "Christian home" but that is laughable considering we never went to church, never prayed, and my mother is a narcissistic mental nut.  The only time I had ever gone to church was when I was 5 and under and stayed with Grandparents because they went to church always on the weekends or if I was staying at a friend's place and the family decided they were going to church the next day but I tried to avoid those nights at friend's houses. LOL When I see all these things like this I just have a hard time seeing how religion is so great and wonderful. I don't knock those that believe in their religion. Its just not for me at all.

 

My mom spiritually abused me. She would say that if I cursed or spoke blasphemy the devil would come for me at night and drag me to hell. Fo a person with ADHD and OCD it really scarred me deeply and then my parents didn't know why I had panic attacks ay night and often didn't sleep at night and would get my sleep during the day. I started therapy very young and was prescribed anxiety medication to sleep better. My dad didn't do this but didn't intervene. Raising the kids was my mom's job, He never went to church either and I know they used birth control. My mom was obsessed with mine and my sister's virginity. She would listen behind doors, pick up the other phone to listen to our conversations. 

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38 minutes ago, Dorne2.0 said:

Jesus Fucking Christ.

 

My mom spiritually abused me. She would say that if I cursed or spoke blasphemy the devil would come for me at night and drag me to hell. Fo a person with ADHD and OCD it really scarred me deeply and then my parents didn't know why I had panic attacks ay night and often didn't sleep at night and would get my sleep during the day. I started therapy very young and was prescribed anxiety medication to sleep better. My dad didn't do this but didn't intervene. Raising the kids was my mom's job, He never went to church either and I know they used birth control. My mom was obsessed with mine and my sister's virginity. She would listen behind doors, pick up the other phone to listen to our conversations. 

 

UGh that is terrible. I am sorry you had to go through that. I just never understand a parent wanting to be that way to their child. As I got older I just felt like it was all such a joke. I still at times have days I struggle with my self esteem and being worth anything thanks to her. I was horrible for having a child out of wedlock in my 20s but my religious Grandma was not that way. She was loving and no lecture like I thought I would get from her. Of course that was my dad's mom so that is probably why. I learned as an adult that how she acted had a name to it. My mom ran the house basically. My uncle (dad's brother) hates her and has said the way she has spoke about me is wrong. He won't say what was said so I am not taking that is to protect me even as an adult and he won't have anything to do with them. I have learned to somewhat control how I have to deal with communication from her. I have it down to emails only and I only respond IF I feel its something I need to and keep it brief. I had an anxiety attack over one of her emails. Which for most comes off odd but if you know my mom its understandable then. I have made sure in the end to never ever treat my kids in such a way as she did me. They are number one along with my husband. She will never understand that. I think if she could have had her way I never would have married and would be living with them still so she could try to control what I did. I know she hated when I realized she couldn't do that because I was an adult. Sorry all for the side tracking from the show. 

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6 minutes ago, Evil Queen said:

 

UGh that is terrible. I am sorry you had to go through that. I just never understand a parent wanting to be that way to their child. As I got older I just felt like it was all such a joke. I still at times have days I struggle with my self esteem and being worth anything thanks to her. I was horrible for having a child out of wedlock in my 20s but my religious Grandma was not that way. She was loving and no lecture like I thought I would get from her. Of course that was my dad's mom so that is probably why. I learned as an adult that how she acted had a name to it. My mom ran the house basically. My uncle (dad's brother) hates her and has said the way she has spoke about me is wrong. He won't say what was said so I am not taking that is to protect me even as an adult and he won't have anything to do with them. I have learned to somewhat control how I have to deal with communication from her. I have it down to emails only and I only respond IF I feel its something I need to and keep it brief. I had an anxiety attack over one of her emails. Which for most comes off odd but if you know my mom its understandable then. I have made sure in the end to never ever treat my kids in such a way as she did me. They are number one along with my husband. She will never understand that. I think if she could have had her way I never would have married and would be living with them still so she could try to control what I did. I know she hated when I realized she couldn't do that because I was an adult. Sorry all for the side tracking from the show. 

 

Thank you. I'm sorry you were also treated badly by your mom. My sister was also affected by our upbringing. She has anger issues, anxiety issues and a pattern of terrible relationships. My parents are also very controlling and manipulative, my dad is an expert in emotional blackmail. They even chose our careers for us. My sister is a doctor. I lucked out because after my maternal grandfather died (my mom is actually my step-mom, my sister and I have different mothers) he left me a trust fund, I dropped out of Law School, married a wonderful man and moved as far away as I could. I wanted my sister to come with us but she is very attached to our parents, especially our father. She still leaves with them.

I will never have kids, with my ADHD, OCD and recurring depression plus my family having a history of post-partum depression and pregnancy and post-partum psychosis. My husband doesn't want kids and had a vasectomy before I even met him. He's also a trust fund brat and we party too much we'd make terrible parents.

I don't blame my mom (she's my step-mom but I consider get my real mom) for the abuse because that's how she was raised and she was doing her best to try to raise god Catholic girls. She thought she was raising us well and had good intentions. God knows my father never helped and she was very young when she married him. And she also always had a better relationship with me than with her bio-daughter devil stuff aside. She took my side in fights with her bio daughter and everything.

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I just wanted to clarify, my grampa had died years earlier but I could only acess the trust fund when I turned 21. I didn't mean I lucked out because he died but that he loved me enough to see I needed financial independance, he was also tying to compensate the fact that his daughter/my birth mother didn't want anything to do with me, not that I blamed her, she wanted an abortion and was forced to carry the pregnancy to term.

My parents were incredibly controling. We couldn't cut our hair short because my parents thought women were more beautiful with long hair. We couldn't die our hair, used tampoms (what if my hymen broke?) or wear make-up, we could use only sunblock (even after we were eighteen). Actually, mom was obsessed with sunblock and moisturizer and she passed that obsession to me, which I'm thankful for because I'm almost thirty now and look ten years younger, I learned from her to tak vitamin C and vitamin E supplements and to reapply sunblock every four hours. 

Back to the point, my parents allowed us no privacy and controled us to unbelievably degree. They decided what college we would go too (since they were paying) and that I would be a laywer and my sister a doctor. We could never go to sleepovers, my mom would say: what if one of the girls are jealous of you and trows acid on your face? I kid you not. My mom is cleary not completely sane and she married my dad when she was 19, I was six. ( I have to say again she's not my birth mother, my dad isn't a pedo, just an asshole). My mom was also raised the way she raised me, I have seen her mother telling a five-year-old grandchild that God was writing down all of his missdeeds so he would get punished later, it was disgusting, my mom's family thinks of God mainly as a punisher for sins commited, counting ever sin. Those are the reasons I forgive my mom.  

Anyway, I went to the college they wanted me to go and that I took pre-law classes and then went to Law School. I obeyed them until I was 21 and dropped out. I paid them what they had paid for college and the few months of Law School and moved as far away as I could. My sister is an adult and a doctor but she still lives with them and they meddle in every relashionship she has. Eventually she always give in to my dad's orders.

The thing about me and my husband was a attempt at a joke at how immature we are, we can't even handle a dog, too much responsability (we have cats instead). Sorry if it sounded I was bragging. 

Anyway, my upbringing is probably the reason I am obsessed with cults. But even most mainstrem religions are oppressive to women on one degree or another. It is so disgusting when people use religion to abuse others. Ugh.

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Dorne2.0 I sure didn't take it as bragging. My grandma had set up trust for the 4 grandkids and my uncle is in charge of things. She was smart in that manner too. I am thinking she didn't trust my mom to put out of my dad handling things if she gave him that responsibility and she would have been right too. Which on top of it when my grandma died, my mom called and told me over the phone but she was never comforting over it. She never really was in those situations unless others outside our house might have been around. When I look back on many things as an adult I see that she was trying to make us hate my grandparents. She would whine to my dad how his parents wouldn't let us go sleepover but had my 2 cousins who are younger and a handful there staying. I know my sister never stayed over there as kids but I had. I am the oldest of the 4 of us. Which I wish I had thought more of some of this stuff when my grandma was around still to see if she would tell me the truth on what had gone on all those years or if she would have kept it to herself. I think my mom caused her lots of grief though over many, many years by using my dad to do things. She was terrible at handling money and the bills so she would be on my dad until he would call them to ask for help. I remember many horrible screaming fights over things like that. Its no wonder he spent so much time out in the garage and then when she went to work evenings it wasn't as much. Things were more mellow when she had too. Anyway, when my grandma died a few years back, the living trust was set up to split everything 6 ways. With the money for my cousins, sister and I to go into a trust until we each hit 45. I have a few more years to go on that but I know I will have a call or email from my mom at that point probably demanding money from me and she will never see a damn cent. My grandma had set things up to protect that money. My uncle hates my mom and sister too. During the time of things being settled and getting the house ready to sell, I would get a call from my selfish mom harping on the money with that and other things about my uncle. Then I would get a call from my uncle which he would tell me things to not tell them (and I never would) and bitch about my mom and dad. I explained to him that I know my mom was on my dad probably constantly to call my uncle about the money and what was going on and so on. Well from what I take my dad was given I think 75K if I remember right. Well of course that went fast because they gave whatever to my sister as well. I didn't ask for a cent and didn't expect a cent unlike my sister (who is very much like my mom). Anyway's I was told how much was put into savings and it was a bit more than he got. I have kept it quiet and never said a word. I don't know if he made it so his 2 kids and I got equal amounts or how it ended up or if he put some of his into our's as well. I don't know. I just know if something happens to my uncle I got told I was in charge of all that money for taxes and dishing out when its time. Which hopefully I never have to deal with. He was kind enough too at one point to give us some of the money from my trust a few years ago when we had to move from a house we were renting. I didn't even ask for it. He had said if we needed help to let him know and I made sure to say I would put it back if needed it but he said no since it was mine anyway. I was grateful for that help for our family. He knows I am not like them thankfully. Even has said we are pretty similar in many ways, where we are mellow and more laid back but if someone gets on our bad side the gloves are coming off. LOL Well with all that ramble I get what it is about with the money like that. I don't know what is in that account right now and do not ask but figured I will be taking my kids on a vacation we have never been able to before. LOL Then be responsible with the rest like my grandma would expect. 

BTW, I think kids are not for everyone. I have mine but I know that not everyone wants them or should. Everyone has their reasons and its something no one should push on others. Especially if they are happy with or without. Which is one thing I had her try to control as well. A few months before I got pregnant with my 3rd and last my mom tried to tell me out of the blue one day I don't need more kids. It was a WTF moment when she said that to me. As if she could tell me what I could or couldn't do. 

Oh and I am so a cat person myself. I love my furry critters. They are just so much more easy going than a dog I think. LOL 

To add one more thing...to show how bad my sister is...the first thing out of her mouth when she saw me at my grandma's funeral..."Wow you are fat". No hi and how are you. Just I am fat. I wouldn't be surprised if she was on drugs that day there but I don't excuse it. It was something like our mom would have said as well to me. I don't talk to my sister at all. I refuse to. 

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On 25/08/2016 at 5:54 PM, Evil Queen said:

 

Dorne2.0 I sure didn't take it as bragging.

 

Thank you, Evil Queen. My therapist says the way my parents raised me, like a doll they could control, is the reason for my immaturity.

I just feel awful for my sister. She lets my parents control her life and she doesn't need to. She is so smart, she went to college at 16 and then to a great Med School. She fell for a guy who went to Med School with her and he is a great person, but he wanted them to move in together and be interns in a hospital that was in a city that was inbetween my parents town and his town, but my parents guilted my sister to do her medical intership in a hospital in their town, and my dad told her she could not live with a guy before marriage in church, and the guy was willing to have a civil marriage early because they couldn't afford the huge wedding she wanted and didn't want my parents to pay for it. He resented how my parents controlled her and knew that if he accepted this they would control them forever. Eventually they broke up. My parents frequently guilted us on how much they spent on private schools and to raise us. Even though I hated the Catholic School* and Catholic College we went to, they made me feel guilty for all they spent on me and made us feel like we needed to thank them by being perfect and obeying them forever. My therapist was the one that told me children aren't property or investments and that we didn't ask to be born nor did we choose the school they sent us too, so how much they spent on me didn't mean I owned them to be exactly how they wanted me to be.

*I was bullied in HS because I was bisexual, pro-choice and supported LGBT rights. I was actually very popular until I was 16 (I was skinny, blond, had big boobs, blue eyes and a simmetrical face) and started to think for myself and speak out. Even though I never had sex in High School I was called a slut, a whore, a abortionist, a dyke etc. When I was crying once in the bathroom some girls saw me and started a rumor I was pregnant. A lot of boys bragged about having slept with me – all lies. I was really depressed and struggling with my sexuality and came home crying every day, still my parents forced me to go and wouldn't let me change Schools. I thought constantly about suicide and had an eating disorder. When I confronted my parents about how they made me keep going to that school my dad claimed he didn't remember me being depressed or crying and denied that he forced me to go to the School. Even though the one time I skipped school and went to my grandparents house instead he flogged me on the legs with his belt so I wouldn't skip school again. My parents also forced me to take piano lessons (because my dad thought it was beautiful for women to play the piano), ballet lessons even though I was always very tall and awkward and could never dance well. I also had to be a straight A student to please them, anything less than an A would get a “aww, you almost got it”. I didn't hate the piano lessons but I would hurt myself by slapping myself on my legs every time I made a mistake and didn't play perfectly because of my OCD and the pressure they put on me. When I had to perform for the first time I broke down crying and they finally let me quit, even the ballet lessons because I wasn't good at it, had stopped getting As, and my school teachers had noticed my depression and called my parents and told them I needed therapy.

My sister was so terrified of them she didn't use birth control when she started having sex and didn't even tell me. She would swear she was a virgin. I would have put her on BC immediately. So she got pregnant at 16, the father was her HS ex-boyfriend and she was going to leave for college. He had a problem with drugs and had even started abusing her... once I saw he grab her arms forcibly when they had a fight because he was high on cocaine, and he tried to pull her inside his apartment when she was leaving, his own brother intervened and pulled him off her. She got bruises on her arms.. My parents had approved of the relationship before because he was from a rich Catholic family. She finally left him before college, after I confronted her about his abuse.  My dad, who had helped pressure my mom to have me when she wanted an abortion, pressured my sister to have one because his daughter couldn't be a single mother and embarrass the family. He still claims to be pro-life. His daughter's case was “different”.

My sister recently got sick (she's fine now) and she was really depressed. I came home to take care of her. She was fighting with my parents a lot and complained my mom wasn't taking care of her because of it. She resents my parents but always gives in. When she was sick she cried a lot, having recently broke up with the her boyfriend my parents disapproved of because he was poor and had been married before so he couldn't marry again in a Catholic Church. She said “I could never have what I wanted, I couldn't even keep the baby I wanted” and I broke down. I a pro-choice but forcing a girl/woman to have an abortion is monstrous. At the time she had assured me it was what she wanted, my aunt even offered to adopt the baby and I offered her to stay with me for a year and tell people she was taking a year off before college. She refused. Now she tells me she changed her mind days before the abortion and wanted to have the baby but my mom said she couldn't keep it, and "did she want to kill my father from distress"? (Because he has a heart condition). My dad went months without speaking to her because she lost her virginity. And she was told all her life abortion was wrong so she had enourmous guilt over it, and after that it was like she felt she had to make up to my parents for getting pregnant and having them feel guilty over the abortion too. It is so fucked up.

If my dad have a business deal go wrong, they say it must be God punishing the family for the abortion. Everything that goes wrong in their life, like a horrible car acident my sister had two years ago (thankfully she survived but fractured her spine and had to stay in bed for six months, now she's healed completely, but her brand new car was totally destroyed) my dad's first reaction when he saw her after the accident was to be mad the car was destroyed and “how bad was she driving?” And he was pissed because she was driving to a date with the boyfriend they didn't approve off. My mother and I were just glad she was alive. Her car was totaled and had gone very off the road, she had to take off her coat, wrap it around her hand, break the front grass, climb out and drag herself to the road to wait for help. She had glass all over her hair, some in her head and in her arms when she was found.

In fact, if I hurt a toe they say it's because I left the Church and didn't get confirmed or married in the Catholic Church. My ADHD, OCD and reccuring depression spells are because I left the Church. I say I have a better relation with my spirituality now I left organized religion. They insist to relatives I am still a Catholic even though I haven't stepped in Church in years. And God forbit we discuss politics, my dad is very conservative and I'm a liberal, he gets so mad he gets red and start speaking louder and anyone who doesn't agree with him is just stupid. He calls people stupid to their face, even my uncle/godfather (my bio mom's brother) because he's a liberal. No one discusses politics with him because of his heart condition since he gets furious when people disagree with him.

Finally, I noticed some spelling mistakes on my last post, “die” instead of “dye”, “missdeeds” instead of “misdeeds”, “go too” instead of “go to”, “give in” instead of “gives in” and probably other other mistakes I missed, please ignore them. ADHD and OCD is an awful combination, lol.

About the polygamous cults, it unerves me they let Warren talk to people on the outside, since Ervil Lebaron ordered, from prison, 25 people murdered as “blood atonement”. The Lebaron group is a polygamous cult founded by americans in Mexico… I think they're all anglo-saxon though, the fundamentalist groups are very racist and POC are considered descendants of Cain or something. Also, the women there dress more modern and have a saying:" It's better to have a tenth of a good men than a hundred percent of a bad one". Sigh. The way they keep exporting these cults, to Canada, then Mexico (and I even heard rumors of some Mormon polygamists in Brazil) is really unnerving. I keep thinking about the Lafferty brothers. Their crime was really horrific as is their lack of remorse. Fortunatelly, their cult consisted of them and a couple of guys who disavowed them.

Also, I must mention Brent Jeffs and his book “Lost Boy”, since he was the first person to speak about W. Jeffs sexual abuse what was incredible brave of him. Then Elissa Wall reported Warren for being an accomplice to her rape by forcing her to marry. Warren has told his brother on tape he had “immoral behaviour” with a sister and a daughter, and as far as I know those are the only crimes he confessed.  But a son and not one, but many of his daughters were abused too. A man says in the Prophet's Prey docummentary his third wife was a sister of Warren and told him she was abused by one of her brothers, she has sworn not to tell who abused her but she said "he could guess". He was one of the men kicked out by Warren and I think most or all of his wives and children left with him. Warren never admitted to the abuse of boys and would leave court every time Brent testified.

About the Wall sisters, I think at least 3 or 4 sisters stayed in the FLDS, besides the mother, 2 underage sisters and the brother I mentioned. One of the oldest sisters was married to a guy in the Canada offshoot. One was married to a Jeffs, I think Warren's brother or nephew and another to was married to her uncle I think. It is really sad how the ones who left can't see them. Rebecca Musser did everything to stop the underage marriages by testifying and filing missing persons reports to find her sisters but their mother took them to the cops and said they were fine and would not allow them to see Rebecca or Elissa except one last time. The two underage sisters ended up being married off anyway, one to an uncle older than 70 - who by the way was the father of the 12-year-old Warren married. The 12-year-old victim was a cousin to Elissa and Rebecca who are Steeds (by their mother side, Sharon Steed, the second wife of their father, D. Wall). Which is disturbing because Warren's mother was also a Steed, so the Steed-Walls, most of whom left the church, are related to him somehow. The Steed-Walls are also related to the Jessops sisters who left polygamy, and their mother was once taken from their father along with their kids and sealed to Fred Jessop, in whose house one of the Jessop sisters was once imprisioned.

The prosecutor in the Elissa Wall case was a Barlow, related to the Barlow polygamists, but belonged to an offshoot that stayed in the mainstream LSD Church after they stopped being polygamous. One of the polygamist Barlows was even a prophet of the FLDS before several other prophets until Warren Jeffs. And Elissa's current husband is also a Barlow who was born in the cult. Everyone's family tree is very confusing and must be nearly impossible to draw.

Edited to add: some other effed up things I witnessed in my stepgrandmother's house:

A 8-year0old boy said a curse word and his sister said: "God is watching!", he widened his eyes and said "forgive me, God" and the sister replied: "too late, God already wrote it down".

Another time I saw the little kids running from the backyard into the house and my stepgrandmother asked what were they running from, they looked terrified and said: Jesus, Paul (older cousin) said he saw Jesus. Paul is a prankster. But if your kids are running from Jesus, you're doing Christianity wrong.

Of course my sexuality is not to be discussed, my dad was the only one that told me it was ok if I was gay when I was crying in the car on the way home from school, you know, one of all the times I came home crying and speaking about the bullying and name calling he denies to remember. He said he had heard our neighbor who lived alone was gay and he always seemed like an upstanding person and that he would love me anyway. My sister and mom I believe would attack me and put their hands over my mouth to stop me from coming out to them, it is a known thing not to be acknowledged. When I turned 21 I took my money and moved very far away and partied like crazy, never took a girlfriend or boyfriend home until I was actually engaged. I called my mom after 5 years of talking rarely on the phone on birthdays or calling to know about health problems and said: "mom... I'm engaged." And she said what? I didn't even know you dated... I said, "Well, I didn't want to tell you until it was serious... he's not a Catholic". Oh .... what is he? She sounded relieved it was a guy. "He was raised protestant". But your kids will be baptized in the Church right? "He can't have kids. I don't want any. Please talk to dad to not discuss religion or politics when I take him home to meet you?" Yeah, that's probably for the best. "Bye, I love you". "Bye, love you too". Later she told me she was happy I wasn't going to die single like my aunt (who is still alive but over 50 and unmarried, BTW she is beautiful and has a secret boyfriend y parents don't know about).She also said that I would change my mind about having kids, I could use a sperm donor or even adopt a baby or an embryo! No, mom.

I only had two serious relationships in my life, one was with a woman who broke up with me when I said I never wanted to have kids. I sometimes imagined what my mom or sister would treat me like if I had married her. It's so weird my dad is the most supportive of my sexuality, but maybe is because I'm a girl, people say it is always harder for the parent of the same gender to accept.

Edit to add: Sorry for the long post and oversharing, everyone. I know my parents are horrible, especially because what they have done to my sister, but I still love them and now they are older, especially my dad, I worry about losing him or my mom. I mean, even Elissa Wall and her sister Rebecca say they still love their parents. I could deal with my sister not speaking to me, but parents are hard to cut off from your life. Though it took years of therapy to forgive them. I would totally understand if my sister cut them off, though.

Edited by Dorne2.0

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You know, Evil Queen, families like ours are actually normal (I didn't even touch on the dysfunctionality of some of my extended family. My whole family could probably make a good dark comedy show like Titus. It was a dark humor show on Fox about his crazy family). Like Chistopher Titus said:

"So it seems that because of every syndrome and disorder we've invented in the past twenty years, the Los Angeles Times reported that 63% of American families are now considered dysfunctional. My God! That means we're the majority. We're normal! It's the people who have the mommy, the daddy, the brother, the sister, the little white picket fence — those people are the freaks, man!"

His dad was a drunk, got married six times, his mom was a beauty queen, had a genius IQ and was a murderous psychopath. On the show every time she got out of prison she would try to kill his dad. His quotes about his family are gold:

"Screw normal. You know why? 'Cause if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader."

"I believe life is about balance. My mom was brilliant, yet manipulative. Beautiful, but had more voices in her head than the Wu-Tang Clan. Loves her kids, killed her last husband. I say "last husband" because you don't get another one after that."

"[about his mother] Without her I don't exist. Without her, I wouldn't be doing this for a living. Without her, in four states it would still be legal to kill a man with a cappuccino machine. She touched a lot of lives"

"How come Mom is crazy and I'm not? Well, it's possible my mom could stand up in front of this many people and talk about all the crap in her life and those people could have sat around and laughed with her, it would've meant nothing and she could have moved on cool. It's also possible she could have taken out the whole front row with a large-caliber weapon".

"I finally stopped drinking when I hit seventeen years old. Yes, imagine the fuckup I must have been. Stopped drinking because it isn't really good for your health.…and I fell into a bonfire! Yeah, you're done drinking then. You don't need AA. Falling into a bonfire is a one-step program."

"I don't fail. I succeed at finding what doesn't work."

"And me having kids, with my family history? My mom: mentally ill, shot and killed her last husband. My father: six ex-wives, four heart attacks. Both of my parents think alcohol is a food group."

"My mom was a manic depressive schizophrenic who, after a year in prison, went home and shot herself. My sister, Shannon, an amazing poet, who was raised by this woman, and was dating a guy who broke up with her for the fourth time in three weeks. And one day, she came to his house, got a gun, and blew her brains out all over his headboard. I just went through a divorce, five years in court and cost me $2 million dollars. If anyone, by law, should be forced to take antidepressants it's me...But instead, I choose to be an antidepressant. And you can take me with alcohol."

More of his quotes here: Link

About the polygamous groups, I wonder if the goverment had made it legal back them when the mainstream LDS Church practiced it, if we could have integrated them into society, limited the number of wives to three (because that's what is required to get to Celestion Kingdom - and there wouldn't be so many boys kicked out because the leaders want 90 wives and the young boys are competition), if we had just prohibited forced marriages, made laws that said they had to attend Public School, staying in the religion should be optional and made the legal age to marry in a polygamous church 21, maybe we could have prevented these cults. Maybe they wouldn't feel persecuted by the goverment, maybe they would follow the law and the women would have access to TV and education and could make an informed choice to marry into polygamy or not, and would have the legal right to divorce if they wanted to leave. I think polygamy would have died out like it has in many former polygamous societies or at least be less abusive to women and children if they weren't so insulated. Now it is too late, the FLDS at least would never fit in mainstream society. Another problem of course is that for many of them when they want something they think God wants them to have it, so maybe we could not limit the number of wives or set a minimal age to marry because they actually think God is telling to them to have the woman they want, in TWOP we called it "the testimony of the pants" in the Big Love Thread.

Edited by Dorne2.0

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33 minutes ago, ethalfrida said:

I wonder about them kicking out the teen boys. What happens when the group runs out of husbands because there's no one after them?

The older FLDS hierarchy just keeps marrying all the young girls. They allow some, the very devout/obedient, teen boys to stay. I don't think the Order kicks out teen boys like the FLDS does.

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1 hour ago, WireWrap said:

The older FLDS hierarchy just keeps marrying all the young girls. They allow some, the very devout/obedient, teen boys to stay. I don't think the Order kicks out teen boys like the FLDS does.

Okay, thanks.

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I think the Order knows it needs the boys because they need all the genetic variety they can get. They are a smaller cult and the keep the blood pure thing means their learders can't marry all the girls because they are all already inbred enough. I noticed the woman who left last episode was married to an important man who had only three wives. J. Daniel Kingston has only 14, in the FLDS a Jeffs would have like twice that number and the prophet Warren Jeffs has about a hundred while prophet Paul Kingston had less than 30, I think.

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I'm kinda crushing on Rachel's fiance. I've never been into the all-camo look, but he is damn handsome and he owns it. Moxie points to him for blowing off the cult when Jeffs said he couldn't sleep with his own wife. SEE YA! It's a shame he had to leave his kids to get away. I wonder how they're all making a living now. Rachel escaped with 5 kids, she's gonna marry a guy with 4, and food stamps only go so far. I hear that a lot of the FLDS guys have construction skills they can use in the real world.

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Thanks to all for the links, books and film recommendations.  I've binged on this show for the last week or so and have become obsessed.  It just blows my mind that this is allowed to happen in the States.  Not so much the polygamy but the incest, rape, child molestation, brainwashing, child neglect (no healthcare, no education), etc.  I always knew there were polygamists out there and extremist ones but did not realize the extent of it.  I understand in Colorado City, the FLDS run everything but what about state and federal government?  Similar to what Texas did with "Zion" .  But then you have the reality of these poor children being taken away from the only life they've known, the only family, the women having no life skills for the real world.  Lizzy and Julie are the perfect example.  It's a no win situation.  Heartbreaking. 

My husband is Iranian and was raised Muslim (no longer active). It's crazy that in Iran the women are given more opportunities than these polygamist women. For example, the women have the opportunity to get a higher education.  I have a niece who is a lawyer, another one owns her own business, another one who teaches karate.  My sisters-in-law pretty much run the family behind close doors.   Of course, the government and their laws are horribly misogynist and anti anything not Shia but they do allow the women to be educated.  

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Regarding Shirley (I think that's her name) and her falling apart house that she had to pay rent to her husband for -  What would happen if a wife didn't pay rent? Was this specific to Shirley or do all the wives have to pay rent?  I noticed her husband is fixing up the house  for a new sister-wife to live there. Will she have to pay rent? If he could afford to fix up the house, why didn't he do anything about it with Shirley?  So he hates Shirley and wants to punish her, I get that, but what about his children who live there?! Doesn't he care about their living conditions? Forget that question, he doesn't.  I forgot who I was talking about.  It's obvious that none of the fathers love their children.  They may say they do but actions speak louder than words.  They love whatever they can "get" from their children.  No loving parent would be so neglectful.  

What about The Order schools?  As someone mentioned above, there are laws about children and their education, including homeschooling.  Are their schools inspected by the state or some government authority? Maybe being in Utah has something to do with it?  The authorities are more lax?  The Order Bank-what the heck?  I just do not see why some of The Order stuff can't be shut down.  Make it harder on the men. They have got to be breaking so many laws.  Grrrr! I'm getting so frustrated with the way they get away with things! 

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I'm kinda crushing on Rachel's fiance. I've never been into the all-camo look, but he is damn handsome and he owns it. Moxie points to him for blowing off the cult when Jeffs said he couldn't sleep with his own wife. SEE YA! It's a shame he had to leave his kids to get away. I wonder how they're all making a living now. Rachel escaped with 5 kids, she's gonna marry a guy with 4, and food stamps only go so far. I hear that a lot of the FLDS guys have construction skills they can use in the real world.

He won full custody of the kids, he said the Canadian Supreme Court took two hours to decide in his favor (he lived in the Canadian offshoot of the FLDS).

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 I always knew there were polygamists out there and extremist ones but did not realize the extent of it.  I understand in Colorado City, the FLDS run everything but what about state and federal government?  Similar to what Texas did with "Zion" .

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What about The Order schools?  As someone mentioned above, there are laws about children and their education, including homeschooling.  Are their schools inspected by the state or some government authority? Maybe being in Utah has something to do with it?  The authorities are more lax?  The Order Bank-what the heck?  I just do not see why some of The Order stuff can't be shut down.  Make it harder on the men. They have got to be breaking so many laws.  Grrrr! I'm getting so frustrated with the way they get away with things! 

I know! I don't know what the hell is going on with Utah or the federal goverment in dealing with these cults or their schools. If weren't for Texas and Rebecca Musser Warren Jeffs wouldn't even be in prison* , an Utah judge overturned W. Jeffs conviction for being an accomplice in the case of Elissa Wall's rape. Thanfully by then Warren was already in a Texas's jail waiting trial. Jon Krakauer said it was "a judge with an agenda" who overturned the conviction. There are about 15-20 thousand polygamists in Utah and the FLDS has millions and millions of dollars so maybe he had political reasons.

*Elissa Wall (and I think Brent Jeffs too) won a civil suit against Warren Jeffs/the FLDS and they settled fo millions eventually.

The Texas team was amazing, and when the verdict for Warren was read all the legal team and law enforcement officers and their families wore a red piece of clothing or accessory in support of Rebecca Musser.  Her book is really a great read because she was deeply involved in the case, she even taught the cops how to speak "FLDS" language to talk to the people. The girls didn't know the term "having sex" and apparently they had to ask about "marital relationships". Some of the women were on TV lying about the raid being violent (it wasn't, they filmed it). The kids and women kept changing names tags and lying about who they were and who their parents were and Rebecca helped identify many of them.

Apparently, all of W.J. ten thousand followers are praying for her death though, which is so creepy! And W.J keeps fasting and praying for both hers and Jon Krakauer's deaths, Kraukauer said "He's praying fo my death. Well, If I was religious I would be praying for his death, I want that fucker dead, I want him dead right now!". You and me both, Jon.

Also, after Jeffs was convicted, Brent Jeffs, whose testimonies Warren always had refused to be present for, walked up to him and said "You are exactly where you deserve to be, you bastard." I'm glad he got to do that.

Edited by Dorne2.0 · Reason: spelling
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He won full custody of the kids

Maybe I misunderstood -- it seemed like he had to leave without the kids and only later won custody. Either way, good for him for getting them out.

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OK so the one sister not only married her cousin but he's also her sister's husband?

It baffles me on why this is so normal and ok for them. The incest makes me want to vomit. They're marrying their half siblings! 

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38 minutes ago, Court said:

OK so the one sister not only married her cousin but he's also her sister's husband?

It baffles me on why this is so normal and ok for them. The incest makes me want to vomit. They're marrying their half siblings! 

The informant showed 2 different weddings. The Kingston sister that went back so she could marry the husband of her choice, her 1st cousin BTW, was "first wife", the other one that had sisters marry the same guy was a different wedding. But Yes, it is weird, very perverted. In the Sister Wives show, 2 sisters are married to the same guy as well, it is a common practice in polygamy but it is not considered "incest" which means the wife/husband are blood related closer than 4th cousin. Jessica's/Shanell's father is married to his own half sister, she was his 3rd or 4th wife and the mother of the brother we met tonight. Incest is common among the different polygamist groups, especially those that keep themselves separate from other polygamist groups like The Order and the FLDS.

Edited by WireWrap
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20/20: FLDS A House Divided

This is a must see. Three parents, two women and a men, fight for custody of their children. A sick new ritual that Warren created, only a few men are deemed worthy enough to father children, and the husbands are encouraged to give their wives to them to have sex with and to witness it (this is exposed by one of the parents trying to get her children back, an ex-wife of none other than Lyle Jeffs, who now rules the FLDS in Warren's name).

Child slave labor exposed. A boy who left the FLDS at 17 tired of a life of servitude. His journey into rescuing his siblings in operations much like the escapes on this show. His biggest opponent his oldest sister, until her husband wanted to marry her 14-year-old sister. Her husband is kicked out because only Warren can arrange mariages. She was going to be given to another man, she calls her brother and he comes for her. Then she sues for custody of her kids who are brainwashed to hate her, they would call her the devil and say horrible things to her. She finally gains full custody of them and then has to endure a long standoff with the former members and the god squad intimidating her to get them. Her kids didn't want to leave with her, would treat her horribly at first after leaving with her, it took a long time to have them come around.

Goverment officials's are confronted by the media, asked if they are in the FLDS pocket.

Edit to add: 

The revelation that created the ritual mentioned above in which husbands give their wives to more worthy men to impregnate was mentioned by Rebecca Musser in her book, and she tells how entire families left the FLDS after that.

It's like Warren wakes up every day and thinks, how can I make my followers lives worse? The man is a sadist, I bet he gets off on these awfuls things he orders them to do.

"If a girl wants a doll, give her a baby. If a boy wants a bicicle, give him a shovel." Screw you, Warren Jeffs. You cannot die soon enough. On the other hand, his brothers seemed to be as bad as him. God knows who will take over when Warren dies. Compared to Warren, his father Rulon was a sane man.

Edited by Dorne2.0 · Reason: spelling
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52 minutes ago, WireWrap said:

The informant showed 2 different weddings. The Kingston sister that went back so she could marry the husband of her choice, her 1st cousin BTW, was "first wife", the other one that had sisters marry the same guy was a different wedding. But Yes, it is weird, very perverted. In the Sister Wives show, 2 sisters are married to the same guy as well, it is a common practice in polygamy but it is not considered "incest" which means the wife/husband are blood related closer than 4th cousin. Jessica's/Shanell's father is married to his own half sister, she was his 3rd or 4th wife and the mother of the brother we met tonight. Incest is common among the different polygamist groups, especially those that keep themselves separate from other polygamist groups like The Order and the FLDS.

Thank you for clearing that up! I rewound it a few times trying to figure it out. 

Incest or not, I still find it gross to marry the same person as your sister. 

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I just felt bad for Joe after the meeting with his father.  At first I thought he had some red chapstick on, then realized his lips were bleeding because of biting his lip from the nerves.  You can tell during the individual interview where it was healing up, but so sad.

And how they just let his mom die was so tragic.  To tell him his mom was throwing up the cancer?  I just can't fathom.  

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On 8/28/2016 at 0:09 AM, Dorne2.0 said:

I know! I don't know what the hell is going on with Utah or the federal goverment in dealing with these cults or their schools. If weren't for Texas and Rebecca Musser Warren Jeffs wouldn't even be in prison* , an Utah judge overturned W. Jeffs conviction for being an accomplice in the case of Elissa Wall's rape. Thanfully by then Warren was already in a Texas's jail waiting trial. Jon Krakauer said it was "a judge with an agenda" who overturned the conviction. There are about 15-20 thousand polygamists in Utah and the FLDS has millions and millions of dollars so maybe he had political reasons.

It's sickening, isn't it?  I can only imagine how many Utah government hands have been greased by this vile organization (FLDS and Kingstons).  Unless you get a group (like Texas) which actually cares to look into the rampant child abuse, at this point the federal case regarding the very open and notorious welfare fraud is about the best thing going.  Gut the asshole leaders financially and lock them up.  To me it's just another form of organized crime, so why not RICO? Fuck those Jeffs and Kingston men. Put them in cells (which are nicer than some of the wives' houses) for life and let the Utah officials who turned a blind eye to these crimes re-assimilate all these woefully uneducated women and children.

I've been following this show without commenting, but Joe's story was just heartbreaking.  The lengths those monsters went to in order to stay hidden and save a buck...  That wasn't about God's magical healing powers.  Ugh.  Now I need to take a walk and watch some trash reality so I can unclench.

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I think a lot of it is the government not wanting another Waco.  But that doesn't explain these women having to fight for custody after they do escape and the kids having to go back for visits where they're sent do dances where the old pedos in the order pick who they like the best.

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I also watch in amazement. The mind control is just devastating and I can't understand the lack of curiosity that makes the women want to stay and have their daughters do the same. How nasty the men are. But it is just nasty that these men go from one women to another and then sisters share one husband! That's just ewwwww. To me it's like why did some slaves run away and why did most others stay?

But as an aside, is it just me or is there a bit of pride in their voices when the young women who rescue everyone introduce themselves and says who their father is? I hear it and then I see it in their faces. 

Edited by ethalfrida
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I felt so sad for Joe.  But I wonder why the sisters don't make an effort to pull him closer emotionally.  They're like, "He's really lonely."  Then, thxkbye!  And don't see him for a few months.  Very strange.  I am also worried about the sister who kept defending Lyle Jeffs.   Talk about residual delusion.   Thank you for sharing all of the background information. These cults are really evil.

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1 hour ago, ethalfrida said:

I also watch in amazement. The mind control is just devastating and I can't understand the lack of curiosity that makes the women want to stay and have their daughters do the same. How nasty the men are. But it is just nasty that these men go from one women to another and then sisters share one husband! That's just ewwwww. To me it's like why did some slaves run away and why did most others stay?

But as an aside, is it just me or is there a bit of pride in their voices when the young women who rescue everyone introduce themselves and says who their father is? I hear it and then I see it in their faces. 

They are cut off from the outside world from birth, the FLDS women that is. They don't know any other way of life outside their own insular community and they are bombarded with horrible tales (lies) of what happens if they leave the group/compound from the time they are born. The Order women, although they see the real world, live in it to some degree (but on the outskirts), they too are taught this from birth and are taught to fear the outside world.

Then in both groups, they marry them off young, before they start asking questions/rebelling, get them pregnant as soon as they marry because they, the leaders, know the young women are less likely to leave after they have kids.

34 minutes ago, HZAnita said:

I felt so sad for Joe.  But I wonder why the sisters don't make an effort to pull him closer emotionally.  They're like, "He's really lonely."  Then, thxkbye!  And don't see him for a few months.  Very strange.  I am also worried about the sister who kept defending Lyle Jeffs.   Talk about residual delusion.   Thank you for sharing all of the background information. These cults are really evil.

I caught that as well. I understand they didn't know him at all, other than they shared the same father, but neither reached out to him to help him transition into the real world. Maybe they are not comfortable helping guys leave but they should have found someone that could.

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2 hours ago, ethalfrida said:

I also watch in amazement. The mind control is just devastating and I can't understand the lack of curiosity that makes the women want to stay and have their daughters do the same. How nasty the men are. But it is just nasty that these men go from one women to another and then sisters share one husband! That's just ewwwww.

In the FLDS a lot of men marry the stepdaughters they raised. Uncles marry nieces in both groups. And the Kingstons often marry their half-sisters, or at least did a generation before. The second girl they saved in the show, Melanie, was Daniel's daughter with his half-sister. When she said that I did a double take. Also when Jessica and Andrea try to write their family tree you see how their father and his brothers married half-sisters, the names are blurred, but you can see "(1/2 sister)" written by the wife's name. I think that is one of the reasons each wife has her house to raise the kids (they don't want half-siblings to see each other as family in case they decide to marry them later) instead of all wives and kids living together like in the FLDS where the kids are encouraged to see all their father's wives as mothers. It's all very disturbing and gross.

Edited by Dorne2.0 · Reason: ETA: Details about half siblings marriages in the Order.
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14 minutes ago, HZAnita said:

Also, did I misunderstood the show, or did they say that Joe's parents were actually half-siblings??

Yes, his mother is also his Aunt and his father is also his Uncle.

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If anyone here is on twitter here are the handles for the four women on the show @AmandaAndaErik @jesschristens @Shanzy745 @KolleneSnow.

I find that the FLDS people are even more cut off than the Amish because at least they get a year to run around and live in the English world. I wonder how long it will take to deprogram those FLDS sisters featured on last night's show.

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1 hour ago, WireWrap said:

Yes, his mother is also his Aunt and his father is also his Uncle.

Jesus, when you say it like that it really brings it home. Ewww.

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Maybe I misunderstood -- it seemed like he had to leave without the kids and only later won custody. Either way, good for him for getting them out.

Yeah, that's what happened. I misundertood you as saying he had left the kids and couldn't get them back. But in the FLDS, that is the only way, they take one's children without warning. In his case, his wife turned him in for ill speaking of the Church and when he got home they had taken his wife and kids. They do that to men they consider rivals or unloyal. They hold the kids like hostages. He didn't leave his kids, they were taken from him and the only way to get them back was to leave and sue for custody.

They did the same with Elissa Wall's and Rebbeca Musser's father, but that was because of the abuse the second wife's kids were suffering. And only because the Steeds (their mother's family) were considered royalty and two of Rulon Jeffs' wives were Steed-Walls (Christine and Rebecca) and they reported to their husband the abuse their siblings were suffering. (Warren Jeffs's mother was also a Steed and her kids were favored. That's why they took over as soon as Rulon had a stroke.) D. Wall got home and they were gone. He was told the prophet had lost confidence in his ability to control his wives.

In order to leave with your kids, you must do it without anyone suspecting you are considering leaving, unfortunately many only decide to leave after their kids are taken from them.

Edited by Dorne2.0 · Reason: spelling
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