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ElectricBoogaloo

S02.E04: Emergence

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When Cole and Cassie are stranded in 1944, Jones must turn to the person she trusts the least to bring them home – Ramse. For Ramse, this mission will give him a chance to atone for his sins – but can he mend the broken relations between Cole and Railly? Meanwhile, Jones visits Old Jennifer Goines to explore the true nature of Time—and the Twelve's method to destroy it.

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Edited by ElectricBoogaloo

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Another good episode (aren't they all?).  Liked how they showed how Ramse's time in 1944 coincided with Cassie & Cole's, before finally meeting up.  What a bro, trying to get Cole back in Cassie's good graces.  Wonder how long its going to take for the truth behind Jones sending Ramse out to be executed gets out.

Liked seeing the origin (some of it) behind Pallid Man.  Guessing Olivia's beginnings will be something similar.  Really curious now to get the story on Cole's mother and her whole part in the story and involvement with or against the Aot12M.

Its easy to see how the consequences pile up through the time-traveling.  They do very little to hide the truth.  "We're time travelers, and to prove it, now watch us disappear."  Stopping the virus only resets 2015/'16-forward, so anything before that will still have happened & be remembered... or am I putting way too much critical thinking into it?

 

If there is one little tiny gripe I could make after the seeming end to the trip back to the '40s, is that we never got an explanation behind the empty Tab can that Cole found in the bought hotel room in 2016.

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So what is the over/under that we are going to see 1944 cop again because I like him.

Loved the origin story for Pallid Man.  Makes and odd sort of sense and works with the central premise of the show that time doesn't work the way we think it does.  The Same way Ramse actually built Jones fortress The Monkey Lady is the mother of Pallid man.

Loved Old Jennifer and Jones discussing time.  That was fun an interesting.  I think my favorite line of the episode is "What happens to time given time?"  

It will be an interesting thing Cassie, Cole and Ramse start piling up murder charges.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
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So what is the over/under that we are going to see 1944 cop again because I like him.

Loved the origin story for Pallid Man.  

Why do I think that the 1944 FBI Guy is going to end up being Pallid Man's Daddy?

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After watching this episode i have a huge feeling that the girl olivia's father is one of the 12 just like the old guy with the scar. His mother was one of the 12 so why wouldn't olivia'sdad be one os the 12.

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Ah, I should have known that the Messenger was going to end up being the mother of The Pallid Man!  I'm pretty sure Tom Noonan's name wasn't in the credits, so his reveal at the very end was pretty nice.

Enjoyed watching Ramse go back to the 40s and help Cole and Cassie get back.  It was fun watching the trio play off one another, and all the issues between them.  I especially enjoyed the scene at the bar between Cassie and Ramse.

I have to think them telling Jay Karnes' FBI agent the truth and showing them blink back to the future, means there will be more to that character.

Jones and Jennifer was as entertaining as always.  Just seeing Jones trying to make heads or tails about half of the stuff Jennifer is rambling about, is fun on it's own.

Kind of scary when Jones lost her cool and just started yelling and tearing all that paper done.  She's usually the one in control, so it always gets a bit scary when she's suddenly no longer the one with the plan.  It was also interesting watching her getting into that fight with Cassie and Ramse at the end, and it was Cole who actually had to step up and tell everyone to just chill.

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One of my favorite "scenes" was Jennifer in the previews needing to get snacks.

I think this ep has been my favorite so far this season. I watched both showings. I do hope we see that FBI guy again. I liked him even when he played a jackass on House.

I hope we get some insight as to why the 12 want to stop time and more info on the Witness. And also more info on Jennifer's mom too.

Kirk Acevedo really looks good this season. He looks younger and I can't figure out why. His hair is longer??

I loved all the scenes between Ramse, Cole and Cassie. The actors have great chemistry.

I'm not sure of this, but is Jennifer a primary too? And will the Pallid man eventually be after her? Have we met any other primaries?

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Hahaha, loved Jennifer quoting Bill and Ted! Seems fitting that she referenced a movie about traveling through time.

I liked seeing the dynamics between Cassie, Cole, and Ramse when they were in 1944 as well as when they returned to 1944. Obviously there is a lot of baggage between the three of them. I appreciated that Ramse said it was okay if she hates him but he still tried to repair things between her and Cole.

On a shallow note, that was some mighty fine tea porn in Jennifer's tent. I loved Jones trying to decipher Jennifer speak. Hopefully she now appreciates what Cole has been dealing with since he began interacting with her.

Vivian is the Pallid Man's mother! And he knows where Jennifer is in 2016 but is leaving her alone for now?

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I'm not sure of this, but is Jennifer a primary too? And will the Pallid man eventually be after her? Have we met any other primaries?

Yes, she and Tommy are primaries. And apparently Jim Morrison.

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2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Vivian is the Pallid Man's mother! And he knows where Jennifer is in 2016 but is leaving her alone for now?

This makes me ponder on if he is doing that based on knowledge of what transpired in 1944 (told to him by Vivian), or did The Witness tell him to leave Jennifer be for now?  Also, he must be pretty sturdy to survive the paradox explosion that Cole gave off in 1.12 - he was standing fairly close at the time.

I am left wondering if people's memories - directly affected by Cole, Cassie, and Ramse's time traveling exploits - can substantially be altered?  For instance, with Cole saving Ramse instead of leaving him to die and then himself fading into obscurity, as foretold by The Witness.  By doing one simple thing differently, its implied that Cole significantly changed the course of events and the timeline.

 

I know the going speculation is that Cole will end up the M5-10 origin skeleton, but other than that, I would very much like to know what makes him so important to The Witness, Messengers & the Aot12M?  I find it hard to believe its just because he was the first successful time traveler.... and actually, wouldn't that be Cassie, since they used the 2015 machine to send her to 2043?   Argh, the headaches of time travel mechanics and resultant time loops.  lol

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Gr8 episode,i hope they explain a bit more why the 12 monkeys wanna destroy time,because another bad guy who wants to destroy the world for no reason is kinda boring.Also,what if cole is the witness and thats why vivian said that "the witness said that i cant kill cole" coz if she would kill cole there would be no witness in the future.

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Magicu, if Cole is the Witness wouldn't Vivian had recognized him as such? Unless the Witness issues his proclamations by proxy.

Thanks, EB, for the primary info. And how we know how JM really died.  Btw, what was the Bill & Ted quote?

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I doubt anyone had ever truly seen the Witness actually. ^^

So, another question I had at the end... was that final scene with the Pallid Man before or after the paradox explosion ? Did he survive it or we just had a cameo from him before his death to explain his backstory ?

Well, I guess time will tell. 

Edited by Triskan
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15 hours ago, kat165 said:

Kirk Acevedo really looks good this season. He looks younger and I can't figure out why. His hair is longer??

Considering he was bald last season-- yeah, I think it's the hair. He is looking really good!

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I noticed it too - last episode I found myself looking at him and going 'hey..?'. Very nice.

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Just watched this most excellent episode. Not sure I have much to add. Does anyone recall the Jim Morrison song that was referenced? The episode was so fast moving that I forgot it. ETA: Found it in the quotes thread: Break on Through (to the Other Side)

Things I loved:

  1. Ramse advocating for Cole to Cassie, and by proxy getting her on board with the right mission and team (I think)
  2. The way Cole took control of the arguments, first with a loud voice, and then with a whisper
  3. Cole saying, "You're gonna wanna see this," and then Ramse, Cole, and Cassie blinking out while the cop guy watched.

When Ramse got hit with the car, I said aloud, "Oh crap!" 

Edited by shapeshifter
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Kirk Acevedo really looks good this season. He looks younger and I can't figure out why. His hair is longer??

He really does! And Ramse was so great in this ep - escaping the hospital, coming to Cole and Cassie's rescue, urging Cassie to forgive Cole. Just loving him this season!

Loved this episode. I liked seeing Jones fall apart a bit. And I loved Jones' scenes with Jennifer.

The FBI agent's (or was he a cop?) face when Cole, Cassie and Ramse splintered was the best.

Very interesting to see Pallid Man's origins. 

Nice to see Trenna Keating (Doc Yewll from Defiance) playing the nurse treating Ramse after he got hit by the car.

Edited by Gillian Rosh
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24 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Nice to see Trenna Keating (Doc Yewll from Defiance) playing the nurse treating Ramse after he got hit by the car.

Good catch!   I totally didn't recognize her

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3 minutes ago, mjc570 said:

Good catch!   I totally didn't recognize her

Me either!

Was this the first time we heard Ramse's first name? (José)

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53 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Was this the first time we heard Ramse's first name? (José)

No, we definitely heard it last year.

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Just watched this most excellent episode.

Hahahaha!

6 hours ago, Triskan said:

So, another question I had at the end... was that final scene with the Pallid Man before or after the paradox explosion ? Did he survive it or we just had a cameo from him before his death to explain his backstory ?

The time card said 2016. I'm assuming everything we see from 1944 and afterward is taking place after the paradox explosion which means he was alive when Jennifer checked herself into the clinic.

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1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The time card said 2016. I'm assuming everything we see from 1944 and afterward is taking place after the paradox explosion which means he was alive when Jennifer checked herself into the clinic.

Time travel, paradoxes, and such are going to keep tripping me up so bad.  For some reason, before reading your response to another post, I never really stopped to think that the paradox meant changing other events aside from starting the Red Forest in 2044.

So, then we can infer that not only did the killing of TC,Jr start the creation of the Red Forest in 2044, but it also changed a number of important events/timelines throughout history between 1944-2044?  IE, PM back alive (since he should have died in the paradox explosion... but then again, Vivian should have died too, during her own paradox explosion event, but didn't.......).

Also, have to wonder what other kinds of events changed between 2016 and 2044 when they stopped Jennifer from releasing the virus and destroying the rest of it at the time - aside from the plague starting 2 years later and saving a decent number more lives.

 

The subconscious sci-fi lover in me greatly appreciates the intricately demanding focus it takes to keep up with the mechanics, influences, and consequences of time traveling... but at the same time, it can be a real headache trying to keep it all straight and remembering to separate the original events/timelines from the changes caused by it.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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On May 10, 2016 at 4:35 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

If there is one little tiny gripe I could make after the seeming end to the trip back to the '40s, is that we never got an explanation behind the empty Tab can that Cole found in the bought hotel room in 2016.

I wonder if the room will come into play again later in the season, and we'll see where the Tab can came from them.

I'm loving seeing this lighter side of Michael Hogan. I liked him sitting there kind of grinning at Kat and saying, "Why are you being an asshole?" She was totally taken aback, but he made her think. I'm liking their dynamic.

Cool to see Cole take charge there at the end. He's maturing and becoming a leader, which is nice. Also nice to see his smile right before he winked out of sight.

Also enjoying Ramse this season. Sweet moment with Cassie, sticking up for Cole.

I hate to say it, but, "Shut up, Cassie." She is getting on my last nerve.

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Didn't enjoy this ep as much as the others here. Way too much Ramse for my taste, and even Jones' B-plot with Jennifer didn't really click with me. That said, it might be because I watched it like a half hour after Bates Motel which was game-changing and very emotional, so I could have just been distracted.

I did like that they seem to be taking a somewhat fresh approach to time travel rather than the usual "time as a fixed loop" (which I hate). Although stuff like Jones and co having to wait for the newspaper article to appear still doesn't make sense (they even lamphshade it). Oh well. 

Glad to see Vivian gone. The actress bugged me for some reason. Maybe her eyebrows? They were barely visible, it made her look weird.

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Since it's time travel I don't know that Vivian is gone. I hope she is. I just can't
that actress. (I'm assuming Vivian is the one of the 12 who killed the primary.
 I didn't recall her name.)

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4 hours ago, kat165 said:

Since it's time travel I don't know that Vivian is gone. I hope she is. I just can't
that actress. (I'm assuming Vivian is the one of the 12 who killed the primary.
 I didn't recall her name.
)

I don't remember ever hearing her character name at all, at any time on the show - aside from the one instance where her compatriot called her by the name of the woman she was impersonating - but the actress is listed as Vivian Rutledge on 12 Monkey's IMDB section.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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On 5/11/2016 at 1:45 AM, bethy said:

I wonder if the room will come into play again later in the season, and we'll see where the Tab can came from them.

I think you're right, in that we will see the room again, sometime in the past.  Not only was the Tab can not explained (yet), but also the picture of Cole with another man not introduced on screen yet - the one where the hotel owner asked if the James Cole in the pic was his grandfather, because of the exact resemblance to him.

 

And while pondering on the headaches caused by trying to keep everything time traveling-related straight;  I realized on re-watch that while 1944 Ramse is trying to find Cole & Cassie to prevent the paradox event from happening at that time [& one hundred years later], 2044 Ramse is out in the woods awaiting execution/saving Deacon, then being given the pardon to go back and save/bring back C&C.   Makes one wonder how many closed time loops - or subsequently created alternate realities - there are out in the whole of the space-time continuum, since the first time Cole traveled back to find & kill Leland 'Frost' Goines.....

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On 5/11/2016 at 10:43 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Nice to see Trenna Keating (Doc Yewll from Defiance) playing the nurse treating Ramse after he got hit by the car.

I thought I recognized the voice.  Thanks for placing it.

I do like how the people are all related to one another, such as this week seeing that the Pallid man is the son of Vivian, one of the 12 monkeys/babies that came back in time to kill a primary.  I'm still interested in how the babies were born and what made them different in the first place.

So where and when do our intrepid time travelers go next?

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7 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I do like how the people are all related to one another, such as this week seeing that the Pallid man is the son of Vivian, one of the 12 monkeys/babies that came back in time to kill a primary.  I'm still interested in how the babies were born and what made them different in the first place.

So my response is influenced by having watched Orphan Black yesterday, which was all about genetically engineering babies. Anyway, is The Pallid Man/baby-of-Vivian one of the pale looking 12 Monkeys (who also have another moniker that I can't recall)? If so, do people whose bodies went through time travel have babies that look like that?  And, if so, could one of the pallid monkey people be the offspring of Cassie and Cole? 

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On 5/12/2016 at 6:34 AM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I think you're right, in that we will see the room again, sometime in the past.  Not only was the Tab can not explained (yet), but also the picture of Cole with another man not introduced on screen yet - the one where the hotel owner asked if the James Cole in the pic was his grandfather, because of the exact resemblance to him.

 

And while pondering on the headaches caused by trying to keep everything time traveling-related straight;  I realized on re-watch that while 1944 Ramse is trying to find Cole & Cassie to prevent the paradox event from happening at that time [& one hundred years later], 2044 Ramse is out in the woods awaiting execution/saving Deacon, then being given the pardon to go back and save/bring back C&C.   Makes one wonder how many closed time loops - or subsequently created alternate realities - there are out in the whole of the space-time continuum, since the first time Cole traveled back to find & kill Leland 'Frost' Goines.....

With the reveal of the Pallid Man being Vivian's son I'm thinking it's 2 (sort of): The original closed time loop with the plague happening in 2016 and a slightly altered loop with the plague happening in 2018 (among other things).

Vivian always had to go back to birth the Pallid Man but I don't think Cole, Cassie or Ramsey followed her in the original time loop - that's why she kept saying that they weren't supposed to be there but Crawford (the Primary who can see all of time) was cool with it because he already knew the timeline would 'course-correct' anyway.

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Hmm, when Cole said to Jay Karnes' character 'You wanna see this' I thought 'Dude, you're inviting him to be a witness - does that not creep you out a little bit?'

Completely unrelated to any speculation about the Witness: If the 12 Monkeys want to destroy time (sure why not) why did they start the plague in the first place? How does spreading the virus help bring along that particular endgame (except probably taking out some witnesses)? I'm sure I'm missing something here - can anyone help me out?

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3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

If the 12 Monkeys want to destroy time (sure why not) why did they start the plague in the first place? How does spreading the virus help bring along that particular endgame (except probably taking out some witnesses)? I'm sure I'm missing something here - can anyone help me out?

I think the virus prompts the creation of the time machine they need to end time.

As for the rest of this episode... I've never heard such meaningless pseudoscientific drivel in my life. I don't think I can get past it. I'd love to be someone trawling the show for clues about the various timelines but I can't get past how nonsensical the whole thing is.

Did Jennifer and Jones really have a conversation about time evolving because it had time? That is hands down the dumbest fucking thing I've heard on TV in a long time. And I watched Wizards vs Aliens on the weekend. I'd love to hear what environmental factors time was adapting to. Does this mean gravity is also evolving because it has time? Will it become sentient and speak to people? Wait, the Laws of Thermodynamics are whispering to me right now. They want to be FREE.

This is yet another science fiction show where the writers don't understand science. At all. And throwing in a "this isn't in any of the theory" bookend doesn't make it work. I haven't been this annoyed since Barry Allen travelled back in time with his feelings.

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I've long since stopped expecting for sci-fi shows to make even a little sense. These days, I'm only watching for characters.

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There is bad science. And there is metaphysical drivel so excruciatingly nonsensical that it makes your brain bleed. This show gallops enthusiastically toward the latter.

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2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

There is bad science. And there is metaphysical drivel so excruciatingly nonsensical that it makes your brain bleed. This show gallops enthusiastically toward the latter.

With this show, I gleefully hold on for dear life and let the nonsensical science carry me away. Admittedly, sometimes it's a little like what I vaguely recall an LSD trip to be like--but without the hangover.
I love time travel, and will put up with a lot--even convince myself that I understand what they're saying--as long as there are enough good actors and writing--which this show has for me.
Time travel is a physical impossibility, so I automatically turn my suspension of disbelief meter up to infinity when the show starts.  Sometimes the red forest does set off the meter's alarm.

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I'm still nursing my time-travel induced headache from Legends of Tomorrow - this show feels like three aspirin gulped down with a good whiskey shot in comparison.

We always knew things would get trippy here so I don't mind some metaphysical babble is what I'm saying.

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LoT made more sense than this gobbledygook. Stringing random words together into a nonsensical sentence is not good writing. The writer may as well have used the New Age Bullshit Generator http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ to write this episode. But YMMV.

Edited by AudienceofOne

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On 5/16/2016 at 7:29 PM, AudienceofOne said:

Did Jennifer and Jones really have a conversation about time evolving because it had time? That is hands down the dumbest fucking thing I've heard on TV in a long time.

I have liked this show a lot but that was just.....I have no words.

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