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S12.E17: I Wear The Face

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Of all the things that made no sense in this episode (and there were lots), Jackson/Catherine's backstory is so weird and convoluted.  They keep throwing out thee random things regarding Jackson's father and they really don't fit together at all.  

 

I was never totally sure what their backstory was. I suppose it's reasonable that they'd keep Catherine in the family if her husband turned his back on everything they stood for and she on the other hand showed interest in expanding the business, which she obviously did. But then, now it turns out he tried to take Jackson away from her only to completely vanish later, which doesn't make a lot of sense. 

And there was this time she gave a grand speech to Jackson and April talking about how she built a whole empire with her bare hands or something. Wouldn't the foundation have already been well established by the time she entered the family? But maybe she was just being dramatic.

I feel like they should have just made her an Avery by birth and be done with it. 

 

I like that Stephanie isn't here for people trying to psychoanalyze her and come up with some bs reason for why she's good. 

 

Except that she doesn't have a problem psychoanalizing other people, in a hideoulsy rude manner to boot. "You're just jealous because I'm operating circles around you while you're relegated to trash duty"? Give me a break. Or suggesting that Amelia gave Penny the grant only because she wanted her out of the hospital. 

 

Anyway, I agree that going about doing stuff behind your friends back is not something you do. And you know what else you don't do? Talk trash about your friends behind their back.

It could have crossed their minds that Penny only applied because she had heard Stephanie make derogatory comments about her. 

Edited by Joana
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I'm not surprised Jo and Edwards were angry at her when they found out she had applied and not told them while they were talking about their own applications.  That's someone you can't trust.

Also didn't Penny also get Jo's surgery that she had worked on and earned a few episodes back? I remember Jo came up with some idea that saved the surgery but then Meredith ended up giving the main part of the surgery to Penny. Granted everyone hates Jo so probably saw her as overreacting at the time (which she was to an extent) but I do get why she might be still cautious of Penny.

 

Penny gets all these opportunities and is favoured by everyone but her kind of shrug, !oh all of this just happens TO me, I'm not actually doing anything" does come across as shady so I get why the girls are annoyed at her. The original interns were competitive but they were also straight up about it to each other. Penny just comes off as sneaky for the most part even though it doesn't actually seem to be her intent.

 

 

Except that she doesn't have a problem psychoanalizing other people, in a hideoulsy rude manner to boot. "You're just jealous because I'm operating circles around you while you're relegated to trash duty"? Give me a break. Or suggesting that Amelia gave Penny the grant only because she wanted her out of the hospital.

This I agree with to an extent. I think Edwards felt she was the shoe in and that's why she's choosing to see Penny winning as some sort of scam.

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I'm still greatly confused by this whole grant business (which I should mention, I don't recall ever hearing about this thing ever before), and I have had a chance to watch the parts I missed. At the begining, they said that each Attending could nominate a resident, who could then apply and then all the attendings would talk, and the chief of surgery would pick a winner. So based on that, Penny couldn't just apply by the deadline, someone would have had to nominate her. Who did that (who had not already nominated someone)?

And why was Callie surprised that Penny won, since she should have been one of the ones in the room when the discussion was going on.

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I'm still greatly confused by this whole grant business (which I should mention, I don't recall ever hearing about this thing ever before), and I have had a chance to watch the parts I missed. At the begining, they said that each Attending could nominate a resident, who could then apply and then all the attendings would talk, and the chief of surgery would pick a winner. So based on that, Penny couldn't just apply by the deadline, someone would have had to nominate her. Who did that (who had not already nominated someone)?

And why was Callie surprised that Penny won, since she should have been one of the ones in the room when the discussion was going on.

 

Bailey seemed annoyed that Ben didn't apply for the grant, which would suggest they could do it themselves and didn't need to have someone else nominate them.

 

But yeah, there was no explanation why Callie wasn't present at the meeting.  It's not that she was excluded due to conflict of interests as Alex was there even though he's in relationship with a person who applied for the grant. Perhaps she got pulled into a surgery and couldn't make it. They could have mentioned that.  

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Wow.  You know April is a hated character when the simple act of getting people to back the fuck off, and not harass you into a miscarriage, is viewed as villainous.  April wasn't spying at the door, she walked into a devastating conversation.  Catherine was dead serious, and why wouldn't April assume Jackson was in agreement?  He's always been a mama's boy, and she trusted Catherine and was just betrayed.  Can the woman have five minutes to breathe and be positive about the baby she's carrying.  Does she have to be on the spot about aborting and testing?  She has almost no support at the hospital.  I wouldn't blame her if she ran away home to be comforted and counseled by her mother.   April's always had very few supporters.  Now, Jackson is the enemy, Arizona just betrayed her trust, Catherine betrayed her, and Owen's in the midst of a breakdown.  I've always felt April had PPD, which can't be fixed by avoidance and working sixteen hour days.  All of this pressure is going to put her in a downward spiral, and a possible miscarriage.  Hope Catherine has fun fighting over the dead child.  How's that legacy now?

 

Of all the things that made no sense in this episode (and there were lots), Jackson/Catherine's backstory is so weird and convoluted.  They keep throwing out thee random things regarding Jackson's father and they really don't fit together at all.  

 

I always thought Catherine was an Avery by birth, then I saw that Jackson's Avery grandfather was white.  It would have been more interesting (for me) if I had been correct.  Catherine has the air of old money and entitlement, and I would love for her to be a descendant of a brilliant, successful black family.  I always assumed Jackson's father died.

 

April has been emotionally manipulative over the course of her relationship with Jackson. The way she told Arizona to go to hell was pretty dreadful, too. 

 

As far as Catherine goes, telling your husband and son that you want to sue your former daughter in-law for fraud doesn't seem particularly restraining order worthy.

 

April's most recent distress is her own fault for overreacting after eavesdropping. She could have let Catherine know that she heard her. She could have paid attention to what Webber was saying and talked to him. Webber and Jackson were on April's side! April could have called a reasonable family member, college friend, etc. and talked things over. Jackson apologized and was going to do things her way. Catherine backed down within a day or two and seemed pretty sincere when she apologized to Jackson.

 

From what Catherine said, her goal was sole custody for Jackson. And, while April may or may not be like Jackson's father, it's not unreasonable to think that April could leave town with, and limit Jackson's access to the Avery heir. After all she left the country twice while she was still married to Jackson and had no intention of divorcing him.

 

Maybe April should be talking to her pastor, or a therapist, or family, or friends about what's going on. Surely, there's someone who could help her see that she's making things worse for herself. 

 

Regarding manipulation - everyone on this show is manipulative.  But I can't think of a more manipulative situation than waiting until April was standing at the altar with another man, then publically declaring your love.  He forced her to make a decision with no warning, and which would have made her the bad guy either way.  And it's really not that nasty to tell an atheist to go to hell, it's kind of like telling them to go the Neverland.  And Arizona's lucky she didn't do that to me.  I would have told her to FOAD.

 

The Avery heir - it's so tiresome to keep hearing this term.  Baby to be Kepner-Avery is not the heir to the British throne.  He's not owned by Her Majesty and England.  He doesn't need to be groomed from birth to reign the British kingdom.  I would like to think Jackson would rather his child go their own way, rather than be beholden to a family dynasty.

 

And yes, it would be nice to see April discussing things with a friend, family, or pastor.  But her religion has always been written as a joke, her sisters are obnoxious, and her closest friend betrayed her. 

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Jackson seems so uncomfortable being the Avery heir and pushed into situations by his mother, you'd think he would want to keep his baby far away from that.

 

Poor kid, we don't even know if he/she is viable and yet it's being used as a pawn.

 

 

Guys, don't you get it???  The cabinet doors are a metaphor!!!!  Amelia keeps wanting to open up things that Meredith wants to close a door on!

 

Jeez, I feel like the only English major in the room.

It's brilliant. If only I could believe the writing really was that smart.

 

.Penny gets all these opportunities and is favoured by everyone but her kind of shrug, !oh all of this just happens TO me, I'm not actually doing anything" does come across as shady so I get why the girls are annoyed at her. The original interns were competitive but they were also straight up about it to each other. Penny just comes off as sneaky for the most part even though it doesn't actually seem to be her intent.

I think they are trying to write Penny as modest while being brilliant. The problem is that they're also writing her as incredibly insensitive.  Knowing that the surgeon wife of the man who died on her watch was working at Grey-Sloan, not to mention his surgeon sister, she should have talked to them when she found out and then requested an emergency transfer if there was a problem.  Knowing that the other residents were competing for the Preminger prize, she should have come out and say that she was applying too.  Anyone with minimal social skills should have been aware that this is going to get you hated at work.

 

An additional problem is Callie, who keeps pushing Penny into situations because she's her girlfriend.  Callie was the one to told her to stay at the hospital, Callie keeps pushing the other attendants to give her more, Callie pushed her into applying for the grant. 

 

I'd love to see Cristina smack some humility into Penny.

 

Is Jolex the only relationship I can root for on this show?

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Wow.  You know April is a hated character when the simple act of getting people to back the fuck off, and not harass you into a miscarriage, is viewed as villainous.  April wasn't spying at the door, she walked into a devastating conversation.  Catherine was dead serious, and why wouldn't April assume Jackson was in agreement?  He's always been a mama's boy, and she trusted Catherine and was just betrayed.  Can the woman have five minutes to breathe and be positive about the baby she's carrying.  Does she have to be on the spot about aborting and testing?  She has almost no support at the hospital.  I wouldn't blame her if she ran away home to be comforted and counseled by her mother.   April's always had very few supporters.  Now, Jackson is the enemy, Arizona just betrayed her trust, Catherine betrayed her, and Owen's in the midst of a breakdown.  I've always felt April had PPD, which can't be fixed by avoidance and working sixteen hour days.  All of this pressure is going to put her in a downward spiral, and a possible miscarriage.  Hope Catherine has fun fighting over the dead child.  How's that legacy now?

Getting a restraining order is more than simply getting people to back the fuck off.  It's a legal measure which requires alleging another person is violating your rights in some fashion.  She and Jackson had 1 and a half fights about the topic we're aware of and Catherine did one shady thing (a conversation which turned out to be a bit of spying) and was having a conversation with SOMEONE OTHER THAN JACKSON saying she thought Jackson should pursue full custody and sue for fraud.  Jackson hadn't demanded anything.  He got pissed when he wasn't told and then again when he realized that she was intentionally cutting him out of the decision making process.  But we really haven't seen anything to indicate he's done anything since.  

 

 And the reason that she should trust that Jackson, at minimum, was not on board with the plan at this point is that he and his mother rarely agree about his relationship stuff.  She could have at least spoken to Jackson about what his mother said and confronted him.  Jackson is many things, but not a liar.  If he was even considering suing her, he'd admit it.  Going straight to a restraining order was a bringing a gun to ... not even a knife fight but to a debate .... a debate in which Jackson might not even choose to engage. 

Edited by RachelKM
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So Riggs is a big fat cheater, too. Him and Owen are like two peas in a pod.

 

But obviously Owen feels superior to Riggs not the same. A guy who cheated on every single of his women! I remember him telling Cristina that his affair had been 'only sex' and was a 'mistake and every one could make mistakes. Now, with Riggs the tune is different, why on earth doesn't he sees what Riggs did to his sister as just sex and as a mistake, since himself is a serial cheater!!! When we are on the other end of the stick the thing tastes different. I don't know why this guy distances himself moraly from everyone, he feels he's above everyone independently of every sh*t he does. His behaviour is absurd. Honestly I don't know what the show is trying to do  with this character, he's ruined beyond  redemption.

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there is a difference between moving on from an LTR that ended and moving on from the death of a long-term partner. Meredith's freak out this episode was maybe a touch over the top, but when she found Derek's blanket and actually explained what she was feeling, I may have found that there was some sort of irritant in my eye... I just like that it's not being presented as an easy cut-and-dry, OK-now-I'm-ready situation.

The blanket thing was a nice change from Meredith's usual raging bitch outlet for her grief. Millions of women (including me) have lost their husbands without becoming self-involved harridans. 

 

Also, Stephanie has appeared to me to be the kind of person who presumes entitlement based on her perceived superiority.  She's supportive of others successes provided she's still more successful. In fairness to her, it seems that she is very competent and smart and her superiors have generally been pleased with her work.  But she's a snob and seems to consider herself above and apart from the other residents.  This attitude seemed evident to me before the Dillard comment and in her interactions with other residents, particularly Jo.

I got that impression about Stephanie from the character's first appearance on the show.  She was a Yang-in-training.

 

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The blanket thing was a nice change from Meredith's usual raging bitch outlet for her grief. Millions of women (including me) have lost their husbands without becoming self-involved harridans. 

 

I got that impression about Stephanie from the character's first appearance on the show.  She was a Yang-in-training.

I feel like there was a difference with Yang.  There was a confidence and a certainty in her that came across more matter of fact about her abilities and less petty.  Cristina knew she was good and expected to be the best, but she didn't seem to begrudge other people being perceived as also excellent.  She came into a room presuming she was the best, but was willing to compete and expected everyone else to compete just as hard and respected a competent showing from others. She actually appreciated people more when they rose to an occasion.  And if someone beat her fair and square (which to her included sometimes being a little cut throat), she was impressed.  

 

Stephanie always comes across as more insecure and threatened by other people's successes.  And she seems to assume people only beat her by being underhanded or cheating or people failing to properly recognize/credit her worth. There's a petulance to Stephanie that drives me nuts.  I may think writing is ludicrous constantly showing Penny as the specialist snowflake of a 3rd year resident ever; but in show, she's competent and both Stephanie and Jo acknowledged she was eligible.  And Penny had apparently been impressive enough to draw focus to herself away from Stephanie.  But instead of reading that as evidence that Penny is possibly very good, she saw it as an erosion of people's notice of her own superiority. 

Edited by RachelKM
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I agree they are trying to Yang-ify Stephanie, but  we can't make a full-throated comparison between Stephanie and Yang just yet.

 

Yang was a fully realized main character, fleshed out, given background and context.  We got to witness her competence and struggles many times over.  We were given opportunity to build rapport and really come to known her.  In my opinion we got more character & personality development in Yang in the first short season than we have with Stephanie in the past three seasons she's been on.  And even though Yang is a very popular character, she wasn't always fair-minded in her assessment of her competition. For instance, In the case of Katie Bryce Meredith made the discovery of what was causing her seizures.  When Derek picks Meredith instead of Christina to be in the surgery Christina, in a  mad huff,  says Meredith only got into Med school because her mother was Ellis Grey and she got picked for the surgery because she slept with Derek.  She never took a minute to acknowledge that Meredith figured out something that even Derek couldn't.
 

Stephanie's character development has been stunted and it has really only been this season that there has been any real movement on her.  You can tell they are trying to create something quick.  This was the first season we got to really learn about her.  Previously she was just a day player in other dramas, like Heather's death, Leah's harassment suit, and the stupid intern/resident competitions. 

 

So yeah, It does seem like they are trying to establish her as an psuedo-Yang: someone who is competitive and confident and a little snobby, but they are doing it in quick, shorthand strokes so it doesn't come off as quite believable.   Those qualities, if not done well or right, can be off putting and negatives rather than positives.

 

Still though, Stephanie aside, I find the awarding Penny the grant thing such a contrivance.  She's been around all of 10 episodes.  And most of them have been her schlepping around like some victim.  She messed up in her first surgery with Meredith.  And the only other doctor beside Mer she has really worked with was Amelia.  So unless Amelia's recommendation for Penny was better than her recommendation for Stephanie, how did she jump to the top?  How are we supposed to believe she is better?  I would be less sympathetic to Stephanie's bitterness over  Penny if the show had really demonstrated that Penny was a really good doctor But it hasn't. 

Edited by DearEvette

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I agree that Yang benefited from both more development and backstory and, of course, audience goodwill being part of MAGIC and a main character.  And maybe this is a chicken egg thing, but I also feel like most of the egregiously snobbish stuff was in the first season/season and a half.  The example given above was from the first season, heck that was the first episode.  Cris mellowed out with the snobbery before by the end of their internship year..  And she was, while still innately competitive, pretty much over the flippant tantrum crap by then.  Stephanie is inches from taking her boards and she's still pulling this crap.  It makes her seem more insecure and/or entitled and definitely immature as opposed to Type A overachiever who knows her own worth.

Edited by RachelKM

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I think Kevin McKidd does tortured and broken SO well; but on a show like Grey's, where one is required to be tortured and broken all day, every day, it becomes tiresome and more like a toddler throwing a tantrum.

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I think Kevin McKidd does tortured and broken SO well; but on a show like Grey's, where one is required to be tortured and broken all day, every day, it becomes tiresome and more like a toddler throwing a tantrum.

Precisely, in S5 I can say one could admire his acting, but it has got worse since then. I cannot take Owen seriously, I find him laughable now. Kevin´s portrayal does not help either.  Just like you said, Owen looks like a toddler throwing  a tantrum. This episode was awful.  Oddly enough, Chandra directed this epsiode, I wonder why she did not tell McKidd to tone it down a bit. 

Edited by NathanRiggsfan
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My ultimate hope is that the grant is Penny's exit WITHOUT Callie.  The lack of chemistry between Callie and Penny is astounding.  Penny sucks all the life out of every scene she is in.  

 

The anvils were CLEAR.....  Callie will leave.  With Sophia.  Az will have a fight, and April will be there for her.  Mark my words.  Grey's doesn't do subtle.  april & Az are mirroring each other.  April's story will probably resolve around the time that Callie takes off with Sophia for Pathetic Penny.  

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The anvils were CLEAR.....  Callie will leave.  With Sophia.  Az will have a fight, and April will be there for her.  Mark my words.  Grey's doesn't do subtle.  april & Az are mirroring each other.  April's story will probably resolve around the time that Callie takes off with Sophia for Pathetic Penny.  

I also have  a weird feeling Sara is leaving the show.

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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But obviously Owen feels superior to Riggs not the same. A guy who cheated on every single of his women! I remember him telling Cristina that his affair had been 'only sex' and was a 'mistake and every one could make mistakes. Now, with Riggs the tune is different, why on earth doesn't he sees what Riggs did to his sister as just sex and as a mistake, since himself is a serial cheater!!! When we are on the other end of the stick the thing tastes different. I don't know why this guy distances himself moraly from everyone, he feels he's above everyone independently of every sh*t he does. His behaviour is absurd. Honestly I don't know what the show is trying to do  with this character, he's ruined beyond  redemption.

I find Owen´s behaviour repulsive.He himself cheated on his fianceé Beth with Teddy emotionally and with Cristina physically,too. Then cheated on Cristina and cheated on Emma,too. Yet there he is preaching a moral lesson to Riggs.

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The anvils were CLEAR.....  Callie will leave.  With Sophia.  Az will have a fight, and April will be there for her.  Mark my words.  Grey's doesn't do subtle.  april & Az are mirroring each other.  April's story will probably resolve around the time that Callie takes off with Sophia for Pathetic Penny.  

 

And this seems totally out of character for Callie.  

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And this seems totally out of character for Callie.  

Yes....up until this season.  They've made a clear point that Callie will do things she wouldn't normally do for Precious (pernicious) Penny.   They made it *very* clear that Callie is "ALL IN" with Penny.  

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I find Owen´s behaviour repulsive.He himself cheated on his fianceé Beth with Teddy emotionally and with Cristina physically,too. Then cheated on Cristina and cheated on Emma,too. Yet there he is preaching a moral lesson to Riggs.

You know... I find myself still a bit of an Owen apologist — I don't know what it is, but I just can't seem to find it in myself to hate him, even though I kind of hate him. I don't see cheating as always a completely black-and-white thing. With Beth, I forgave it because he was in the throes of PTSD and that made him do all sorts of strange things. With Cristina, it definitely hurt, because Cristina, but I even forgave that because it was an angry lashing out and we all make mistakes. With Emma, I forgave it because obviously he was meant to be with Cristina, and Emma was such a non-entity that I barely even considered it cheating (holy poorly served character alert!). Individually, I can get past any of those offenses, but somehow it's taken until this moment and the post above before I'd actually registered that while a mistake is forgivable, there does come a line when it becomes a habit or a pattern, and somewhere in there, he definitely crossed that line. Throw the hypocrisy on top of that, and I just really don't know what to do with him. He really is an angry, overbearing, belligerent, arrogant cheating monster. But I still can't help but want him to find a happy ending. I think I just want to live in the bubble of time when he and Cristina were heart-breakingly beautiful.

 

Instead, I guess I'll just hope that someone calls him out on the hypocrisy, at least, although I'm not sure how many people actually know about all the cheating incidents...

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You know... I find myself still a bit of an Owen apologist — I don't know what it is, but I just can't seem to find it in myself to hate him, even though I kind of hate him. I don't see cheating as always a completely black-and-white thing. With Beth, I forgave it because he was in the throes of PTSD and that made him do all sorts of strange things. With Cristina, it definitely hurt, because Cristina, but I even forgave that because it was an angry lashing out and we all make mistakes. With Emma, I forgave it because obviously he was meant to be with Cristina, and Emma was such a non-entity that I barely even considered it cheating (holy poorly served character alert!). Individually, I can get past any of those offenses, but somehow it's taken until this moment and the post above before I'd actually registered that while a mistake is forgivable, there does come a line when it becomes a habit or a pattern, and somewhere in there, he definitely crossed that line. Throw the hypocrisy on top of that, and I just really don't know what to do with him. He really is an angry, overbearing, belligerent, arrogant cheating monster. But I still can't help but want him to find a happy ending. I think I just want to live in the bubble of time when he and Cristina were heart-breakingly beautiful.

 

Instead, I guess I'll just hope that someone calls him out on the hypocrisy, at least, although I'm not sure how many people actually know about all the cheating incidents...

I think the person who should have called him out on his hypocrisy was Meredith, right there in that ambulance as she once also called him a pig. I think only Meredith knows the ugly side of Owen the best. Yet, she did not say anything to him for judging Nathan.

 

I believe no one will call him out on that anymore, Hunt´s deeds have vanished apparently.

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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Yes....up until this season.  They've made a clear point that Callie will do things she wouldn't normally do for Precious (pernicious) Penny.   They made it *very* clear that Callie is "ALL IN" with Penny.  

 

They have made it clear that Callie is all-in - certainly the things she has said to Penny are clear.

 

I'm less clear on what Callie has done for Penny that she wouldn't normally do.  Could you refresh my memory?

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I have not liked Owen from day one. Never thought he and c had any chemistry. Put bluntly his character sucks. So tired of his over the top self righteous anger

I love Debbie Allen but she needs to butt out. Jackson and April are both wrong in this case

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 He got pissed when he wasn't told and then again when he realized that she was intentionally cutting him out of the decision making process.  

 

This is completely April's right.   

Jackson was completely bitchy and unsupportive of APRIL's decisions.  Her body, her baby, HER decisions.  He had been NOTHING but combative about every single pregnancy issue from the moment he found out.  When April overheard Catherine's plans...she did what she thought was best for her & her baby.   If we want women to have autonomy over their bodies, it can't stop because we don't happen to like that particular womans values.  

I could go on a rant on the autonomy over a woman's body and birth choices too, but I won't...but look up birth rape sometime.  "Choice" isn't all about abortion ladies.  

April isn't my favorite character, but being a woman of faith myself, I ABHOR the way they write April & her religious beliefs.  I'm a progressive, red letter Christian (and it appears April Kepner is too seeing as her sort-of only BFF is Arizona)...and neither I, nor any of my friends act like April.  

Edited by Meow25
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This is completely April's right.   

Jackson was completely bitchy and unsupportive of APRIL's decisions.  Her body, her baby, HER decisions.  He had been NOTHING but combative about every single pregnancy issue from the moment he found out.  When April overheard Catherine's plans...she did what she thought was best for her & her baby.   If we want women to have autonomy over their bodies, it can't stop because we don't happen to like that particular womans values.  

I could go on a rant on the autonomy over a woman's body and birth choices too, but I won't...but look up birth rape sometime.  "Choice" isn't all about abortion ladies.  

April isn't my favorite character, but being a woman of faith myself, I ABHOR the way they write April & her religious beliefs.  I'm a progressive, red letter Christian (and it appears April Kepner is too seeing as her sort-of only BFF is Arizona)...and neither I, nor any of my friends act like April.  

Lots of things are people's rights.  But other people still get to have feelings when the exercise of those rights effects them negatively. April had the right not to tell him she was pregnant (except to the extent there may have been a legal obligation finding out before the divorce was finalized) and she has the right not to include him in her medical decisions regarding their baby, but he has the right to be pissed that she isn't even letting him have the opportunity to have an opinion let alone express it.  I understood where April was coming from, but her decisions did and do effect him.

 

 I would not support Jackson's decision if he tried to get a court order to direct her choices and I didn't like the way he yelled at her when he first found out.  But I get why he was upset and all he did was yell at her the one time and flare his nostrils before April slammed the door in his face after telling him it was her right and he had none.  Jackson was a little dickish (as was April in many ways), but he in no way did anything that warranted a restraining order.  And that was the only point I was making.  

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