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On 12/29/2018 at 9:48 PM, BookWoman56 said:

By and large, I don't like going to concerts much any more, because I've been to one too many where my train of thought ends up being this:

  • 5 minutes into the main act's performance: Wait, I need to check my ticket to see if I accidentally bought tickets to a tribute band rather than the real thing.
  • 15 minutes into the main act's performance: Guess I missed the memo that you have to be drunk/high to enjoy the live performance, judging by the impaired cognitive states of the people around me who are clapping/cheering enthusiastically.
  • 30 minutes into the main act's performance: Uh, exactly how much help do you people need in the studio, anyway, to sound decent? I know a vocalist can have a bad live performance for a variety of reasons such as a cold, sinus infection, etc., but shouldn't guitarists actually be able to play the correct notes and keep time for the majority of the performance?

Exactly. A lot of live shows are trash these days, especially hip-hop shows. A lot of people try to justify recorded music these days being more simplistic and dumbed down by saying it's just a trend. No. A lot of these people can't even give you a live show. People place an emphasis on the importance of touring for artists to survive in today's music business. But how many current, trendy acts deliver live? Not many. Might be why certain artists can't sell records or get shows.

I'll add a UO to piggyback off this point: it annoys me that Ed Sheeran can sell out shows with just his guitar and loop machine. The dude sounds good live, so I'm not hating on him, but it's annoying. Ed just gets up there in Vans and whatever's clean and doesn't comb his hair and just busks...in front of thousands of people. It's the same reason American Idol became a letdown. The Search for a Superstar always wound up turning out a white guy who would rather strum his guitar in a coffeeshop with a tips jar than someone who understands the need for spectacle. And while I'll admit that many times I don't buy the random accusations of sexism in our music and culture, I have to say this is one time I have to say there is some sexism at work. Because I can't see us letting a chick with a guitar with her hair pulled back in a ponytail and whatever is comfortable blow up....I don't care how cute the songs are.

On 12/29/2018 at 11:19 PM, Sweet Summer Child said:

For me, it's the manipulative, calculating way she does it that puts me off.  I have nothing against songwriters writing about their real life relationships- after all, that's what most of them do, male, or female- but Taylor constantly bends the narrative to make herself look like the victim, no matter what really happened, and it's all to get publicity and sell albums.  She doesn't seem to care if she drags another person's reputation through the mud, as long as she comes out on top.  There is no maturity or insight to what she does, it seems to be pure venom, like she just can't let anything go, no matter how minor it is.  She can write a catchy pop song, sure, but Carly Simon, she ain't.

ETA: I should mention that I hated Justin Timberlake for doing this, too, so it isn't about gender.  That loser kept writing about Britney cheating on him, YEARS after the fact.  Okay, someone you loved hurt you, fair enough, but the time comes when you have to get the fuck over it, and stop using it for your own professional/financial gain.  That's what you do, if you want to grow as an artist.

 

On 12/30/2018 at 1:39 PM, BookWoman56 said:

I think the tendency to paint herself as the victim in a relationship that has gone bad is more a function of age than anything else, but again, that's something I've seen pretty consistently across people in general, male and female, musical artists and lay people. Yes, there are songs out there in which the narrative is essentially "I fucked up this relationship and am sorry," but the default narrative in songs about recently ended relationships tends to be "My significant other completely screwed me over."  But that ties in to what I've observed about the revisionist history that occurs when a couple breaks up; there tends to be the stage of painting the other person as either completely horrible or completely wonderful, followed by bitterness about the time/emotional energy invested in the relationship, and eventually a more neutral acceptance that the relationship/other person had both good and bad aspects. 

As for Justin Timberlake, I remember all the hype about "Sexy Back" being the most amazing thing since sliced bread, and when I finally listened to it, my reaction was essentially "WTF do people find amazing about this song?" I don't hate the song, but nothing about it seems especially wonderful, innovative, remarkable, etc. However, I am frequently not impressed by songs/music videos that many people apparently find praiseworthy. For example, I loathe Beyonce's "Single Ladies" because it essentially implies that relationships that don't end in marriage  have no value, and also because to me it's a prime example of a video where "dancing" is used as a poor substitute for meaningful content.

 

22 hours ago, UYI said:

She would also capitalize certain letters (or in the case of 1989, lowercase certain letters) in the lyric booklets of her albums, which gave clues about what each of her songs were about, which made it very easy for her fans to go on a scavenger hunt and figure out who those people are--and in the case of someone like Camilla Belle, who Joe Jonas ended his relationship with Taylor for, this would be particularly painful, as "Better Than Revenge" more or less calls her a worthless slut, and Taylor's fans have been pretty cruel to her over the years.

To be fair, though, she didn't do this on Reputation, so that, combined with the fact that she doesn't do interviews anymore, has softened me on her a bit. I have all of her albums and have plenty of songs of hers that I genuinely like, but she has been problematic AF in the past and generally has gotten off WAY too easy for it.

I'll admit though, that some of issue with her is that we're the same age, and it's hard not to feel ugly and unaccomplished compared to her. It's a weakness of mine. -_- ;)

*ahem* Anyway.

 

18 hours ago, UYI said:

I'm...confused.

Anyway, it just seemed very gross for Taylor to call her out in a way that she could NEVER really take back, and she never really apologized for it, either, despite using the "young and stupid" excuse later on (I especially hate the "no amount of vintage dresses gives you dignity" line--that's disgusting as all hell and Camilla has EVERY right to hate her for that for the rest of her life). Not a good look, IMO, no matter how young and hurt she may have been.

 

3 hours ago, vibeology said:

This. Taylor may not sing it in concerts anymore, but it's on albums, it gets radio play, people cover it and it exists to slut shame Camilla. The lines that say that she's slept her way to fame are so gross and over the top in particular and she repeats them every chorus. For me, this song is on the same level of grossness as the Eminem songs where he goes after Christina Aguilera or Mariah Carey.

I agree with all the above regarding Taylor Swift. I don't think it's sexism that Taylor gets dinged for writing about personal shit in her songs. Like a few people said, it's that she paints herself as the victim very often. I'd say it's annoying when guys do it too, like JT and especially Drake. In hindsight, I don't even like "Dear John", the song she did about John Mayer. The line "don't you think I was too young to be messed with" is...nasty. Like he was cradle robbing. If I was John I would've written a song called "Empty Box" and used the line "all you're left with is an empty box" as a tagline. Because fuck Taylor.

And, I'm sorry to bring this up again, but this is why I still don't buy the whole "this radio DJ randomly grabbed her ass and then sued her because he got in trouble for it" narrative. I think it works for the socio-political moment we're in, so a lot of people don't want to ask too many questions, but I feel like people usually telegraph who they are. Taylor has shown herself to be, at times, petty and vindictive. So I don't think she's above taking something that was a mistake or an accident or a misunderstanding personally, and get someone fired. I don't think it's above her to play the victim to vindicate bullying behavior, because that's what bullies do.

Two non-Taylor examples:

1. Her current nemesis Kanye West. Back in 2005 when Kanye said "George Bush doesn't like black people" on that Hurricane Katrina telethon, a lot of people gave Kanye props for being outspoken and unafraid to speak to his mind and speak truth to power. He wasn't a pariah after that, in part because a lot of people felt the same way about Bush. But 13 years and 47 (give or take) awkward, celebrity moments, public outbursts, and embarrassing quotables later, now people are starting to think Kanye is either batshit crazy or trolling, but either way they want him to go away. He's always been tacky and extra about it, but people only started to see that once he started doing things they disagreed with.

2. Kanye's current nemesis and Taylor's Canadian male spirit animal, Drake. According to him, Kanye invited him to Wyoming to help work on his album, he confided in him about his son (whom he hadn't told the world about yet), and then Kanye told Pusha T about his son and decided to diss him. Basically Drake was just so darn gullible that Kanye was able to trick him into giving him dirt to pass to Pusha T, whom he was already beefing with. This led him to releasing a diss record to Kanye and Pusha T, dissing Kanye on stage during his summer tour and on several songs on Scorpion, and dissing him on features with French Montana and Travis Scott (Sicko Mode). Kanye denies ever giving Pusha any information on Drake and Pusha T said he got it from the girlfriend of Drake's longtime producer "40". Recently Kanye went on a Twitter rant because Drake apparently was trying to clear a Kanye sample.

Why are you trying to clear a sample from a guy you've been beefing with all Summer whom you said betrayed you and set you up to get dissed in epic fashion? Again, it's that convenient victim narrative. When you get caught being petty, spiteful, and vindictive, you play it off like you were just the innocent victim.

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22 hours ago, GaT said:

Causing much uproar in the Twilight fandom & I've hated her ever since. You go Taylor LOL

I'm mostly indifferent to Camilla Belle but that alone might make me love her. Twilight was, is and will always be complete trash in my opinion. These books and the equally hideous films are right up there with 50 Shades for me as complete "WTF...how did these things become bestsellers"?

 

5 hours ago, vibeology said:

This. Taylor may not sing it in concerts anymore, but it's on albums, it gets radio play, people cover it and it exists to slut shame Camilla. The lines that say that she's slept her way to fame are so gross and over the top in particular and she repeats them every chorus. For me, this song is on the same level of grossness as the Eminem songs where he goes after Christina Aguilera or Mariah Carey.

Oh but you cannot bring these things up my dear because then you're either anti-feminist (just because you know Taylor has now decided she's a feminist. Of course it's the brand of white, privileged girl feminism where something is only a problem when it's critical of someone like her), slut shaming her or hating her for being a successful and strong woman. 

And a perfect example of how whether she sings it or not, that ugliness and nastiness she created towards this woman who has never said a SINGLE thing about her publicly still lingers with her fans, was the response to an Instagram post Camilla made last year. 

In the midst of all the Kim exposing her on Snapchat saga, Camilla tweeted an image of a quote that read, "No need for revenge/Those that hurt you will screw up themselves/And if you're lucky/God will let you watch". Was it likely about Taylor in response to what was happening, of course. But this is a person who got slut shamed (yes Taylor that's the real definition of slut shaming), publicly dragged and insulted and invited her fans to the same by this petty little brat who was mad she got dumped. And for five years Camilla said nothing. So yeah, she had a little schadenfreude moment over seeing Taylor for once be publicly dragged.

Now note, she never mentioned Taylor's name or tagged her but oh the Swifties mobilized in seconds and they were on her in that post. It was comment after comment of "bitch you should be grateful Taylor made you important", "bitch you deserved it, you man stealing whore", etc. etc. It was bitch this and that. Irony of this, those same Swifties were the ones outraged and defending their Queen in her claim that she was bothered by in Kanye's song was his referring to her as a bitch.

Oh they were writing their Tumblr essays on the disrespect of their Queen and how it represented disrespect of all women, etc. etc. And turned right round and attacked Camilla the same way. And while no, artists aren't always responsible for every nutty ass thing their fans do. In this case, when you create a narrative that she's never taken back (saying "I was young when I wrote that song is not fucking enough) then yeah, some of the onus of how her little cult has attacked and denigrated Camilla, is on her. 

Edited by truthaboutluv

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Singers need to learn that every slight doesn't require a snappy comeback. I do get it: we're all human, words and actions hurt, especially when you live and work in the public eye, and it's only natural to want to retaliate.

But for the love of God, learn to take a breath and turn the other cheek! I'm so sick of all these sniveling, thin-skinned assholes doing more harm than good with their whiny, petty revenge anthems! Once songs are released, they will outlive you and everyone else, yet that never seems to be taken into consideration. Don't misunderstand me: there are countless great songs, or even whole albums, revolving around, say, breakups, and the last thing I want to do is suggest that singers not exercise their first amendment rights or artistic freedom by venting about an ex in song form. I'm also aware that, more often than not, break-up songs tend to be fictional and not based on anything in the singers' actual life. However, when they get too specific, too personal, too nasty, and said singer pisses and moans for years about this particular person, that bothers me. If your ex was a thoroughly awful person who broke your heart in a uniquely profound way, that's one thing. Good people get stuck in shitty relationships all the time, and if you can profit from your own pain (and eventually theirs), have at it. If your ex's greatest crime was simply breaking up with you (which is their right), you really, really, really need to dry your eyes and move on. For example, I get that Eminem and Kim Mathers had a fraught relationship, but did the poor woman really, truly deserve that many violent, spittle-flecked screeds aimed at her? 

I sometimes wonder if maybe, just maybe, artists should think twice about making diss tracks about the following people:

-A bitchy or fairweather friend. Just stop being friends, problem solved.

-Your strict parents, unless it's in a humorous light like "Parents Just Don't Understand".

-Your "haters" (ugh). Hey, want to know how to really piss off them off? Ignore them. No, seriously, they'll lose their minds knowing they're not getting to you.

-Someone who told you you'd never make it... all right, you're allowed ONE diss track, but no more. They don't deserve any more attention than that, and after a while you just start to look insecure.

Now, there are despicable, loathsome assholes who absolutely, 100% have it coming, and I am completely fine with them getting dragged over the coals. "Praying" by Kesha makes me cry... and my tears sure as shit ain't for Dr. Luke. I'm also fine if it's done in a subtle and clever way, like how Kriss Kross threw shade at rival group ABC in "Jump" back in ye olden days ("Don't try to compare us/To Another Bad little fad!").

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I think that's one thing that a lot of people like about Britney Spears (besides her sweet Southern good girl charm, her belief in being yourself, and her ability to survive and bounce back from her breakdown, of course): She has never said a bad word about Justin Timberlake, or anyone, really. Hell, my state's (Maryland) former First Lady, Kendel Ehrlich, actually had the gall to say she wished she could shoot her because of the idea that Britney was turning young girls into godless heathens or some such nonsense, and all Britney did was joke that she probably needed to get laid! That's Britney for you, I guess. 

Here's a somewhat embarrassing Britney UO:

When her first album came out in 1999 and I was 10, I used to listen to her cover of "The Beat Goes On" all. the. time. I didn't even know about the Sonny and Cher version at the time! Shows that even as a kid, I had some weird tastes in music. :P 

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2 minutes ago, UYI said:

Hell, my state's (Maryland) former First Lady, Kendel Ehrlich, actually had the gall to say she wished she could shoot her because of the idea that Britney was turning young girls into godless heathens or some such nonsense.

...wow. 

Good on Britney for responding to that nonsense as she did. 

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1 hour ago, UYI said:

She has never said a bad word about Justin Timberlake, or anyone, really.

Yup, and that's why I cannot remember ever reading anyone in the industry saying a negative or hateful thing about Britney. People can talk about her not being able to sing, her songs being crappy, disposable pop but everyone seemed to always agree that she was one of the sweetest people. I remember P!nk saying that about her back in the day and this was of course while P!nk was famously beefing with Christina Aguilera. And speaking of Christina, I've always maintained that it's one of the reasons why despite all the shit she's been through, Britney still came out on top career wise because Christina's stalled career right now is likely due to karma and her having a stank attitude for years. 

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Britney has gotten so much shit for having the gall to sing a few catchy, dance-pop songs.  The woman has never once said she has an amazing voice, or that she was the next Madonna, or anything of the sort, she has always been herself.  When I tell people I'm a fan, they always demand to know why, because she doesn't write her own songs.  That has always been the dumbest thing, to me; LOTS of artists don't write their own songs.  Why is Britney held to a different standard?

As for the Justin Timberlake BS...Britney did respond with "Everytime", a song where she apologizes for her "weakness" causing Justin pain.  So, she took the high road, there.  Then, a few years later, Asshole swipes back with "What Goes Around...Comes Around", blasting her for (allegedly) being cheated on by Kevin Federline, saying, "Girl, you got what you deserved."  I'm sorry, guys, but I really hate Justin Timberlake.  I'm glad Man of the Woods tanked, because he is a douche. 

Switching topics, just to keep the thread fresh: I hate "Happier", by Bastille and Marshmello.  I can't be the only one, right?

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25 minutes ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

Britney has gotten so much shit for having the gall to sing a few catchy, dance-pop songs.  The woman has never once said she has an amazing voice, or that she was the next Madonna, or anything of the sort, she has always been herself.  When I tell people I'm a fan, they always demand to know why, because she doesn't write her own songs.  That has always been the dumbest thing, to me; LOTS of artists don't write their own songs.  Why is Britney held to a different standard?

 

And technically that hasn't been true in years because she wrote a song on her second album and she has co-writing credits on several of her subsequent albums, sooo...

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A reminder; this topic is for unpopular opinions. Please keep this in mind; it’s not for disagreement or for refuting someone else’s opinion. Thank you.

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Lorrie Morgan is one of the most underrated country artists of all time. 

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I don't think Lady Gaga is that great of a singer, and the hoopla about her and Bradley Cooper just annoys the hell out of me.

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I was just coming to post about how much I love how unproblematic Britney is. She never gets involved with industry beefs, never lowered herself to bash Justin or Kevin to sell records. "Everytime"  is a beautiful, cathartic breakup song and her "Boys will be boys" response to "Cry Me a River" was perfect.  She could have exploited their relationship and contributed to the beef to sell records but didn't bother.  She went through her breakdown and didn't come back with a woe-is-me attitude. Her sound evolves, but she doesn't attempt to change identities every 5 minutes (like Christina).

I admire her ability to bounce back and plow through the shit in her life. Yes, she is medicated and she isn't a great performer anymore, but so what? She's doing her and she is a lowkey legend at this point. She deserves just as much credit as Madonna and Janet for pushing the envelope on displaying feminine sexuality. I love that she never apologized and never regretted it. 

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but Taylor constantly bends the narrative to make herself look like the victim, no matter what really happened, and it's all to get publicity and sell albums.  She doesn't seem to care if she drags another person's reputation through the mud, as long as she comes out on top.

What's more, she compares herself to other people.  (Or at least, the protagonists in her songs do.)  It's fine if you think that the guy belongs with you or whatever, but I just don't think people should compare themselves to others in that way.  And then she portrays herself as some "aw shucks" sweet and innocent girl next door (literally the girl next door in the one video).  At least she was for a while.  There's nothing wrong with playing the field, but one can only date so many people before they're no longer innocent ("innocent" in the sense of naive and inexperienced; I'm not commenting on her culpability in any of her breakups).

On 12/30/2018 at 12:54 PM, UYI said:

I'll admit though, that some of issue with her is that we're the same age, and it's hard not to feel ugly and unaccomplished compared to her. It's a weakness of mine. -_- ;)

I don't know what you look like, but if it makes you feel any better, I don't think she's pretty at all, and I know I'm not the only one.

On 12/31/2018 at 3:31 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

-Your "haters" (ugh). Hey, want to know how to really piss off them off? Ignore them. No, seriously, they'll lose their minds knowing they're not getting to you.

I've said it before (probably in this thread), but writing a song about shaking it off is the opposite of shaking it off.

21 hours ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

Switching topics, just to keep the thread fresh: I hate "Happier", by Bastille and Marshmello.  I can't be the only one, right?

I don't like Bastille (and I've never heard of Marshmello), so I can only assume I wouldn't like this song if I heard it.

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3 hours ago, janie jones said:

I don't know what you look like, but if it makes you feel any better, I don't think she's pretty at all, and I know I'm not the only one.

My husband asked me once why Taylor always has this look on her face like someone farted.

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11 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

I was just coming to post about how much I love how unproblematic Britney is. She never gets involved with industry beefs, never lowered herself to bash Justin or Kevin to sell records. "Everytime"  is a beautiful, cathartic breakup song and her "Boys will be boys" response to "Cry Me a River" was perfect.  She could have exploited their relationship and contributed to the beef to sell records but didn't bother.  She went through her breakdown and didn't come back with a woe-is-me attitude. Her sound evolves, but she doesn't attempt to change identities every 5 minutes (like Christina).

I admire her ability to bounce back and plow through the shit in her life. Yes, she is medicated and she isn't a great performer anymore, but so what? She's doing her and she is a lowkey legend at this point. She deserves just as much credit as Madonna and Janet for pushing the envelope on displaying feminine sexuality. I love that she never apologized and never regretted it. 

I agree with all of this, but I will say one reason Britney didn’t milk the Justin breakup is because she’s the one who cheated (allegedly). Justin was extra petty about it but I think that was because he’s a mama’s boy who is used to women throwing themselves at him. So being cheated on and rejected like that probably messed him up.

7 hours ago, Shakma said:

My husband asked me once why Taylor always has this look on her face like someone farted.

LOL. The thing that trips me out about Taylor is her speaking voice, same with Drake. They both sound serious and coldly calculating (I.e. slightly phony) when speaking. They definitely know to turn on their performance voices when it’s time.

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Is it bad that I still have a soft spot for Christina Aguilera, even though she seems like an unpleasant person and hasn't released a good album in an embarrassingly long time? Her first 3 albums still hold nostalgic value, and I do think she's a good singer (maybe she overdoes the riffs, but nobody's perfect). I always wondered why she never thought to record a tribute album to her idol, Etta James. 

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1 hour ago, 27bored said:

agree with all of this, but I will say one reason Britney didn’t milk the Justin breakup is because she’s the one who cheated (allegedly)

I get that, but she could have taken a defensive stance and really aired out his shortcomings and imply that those were what lead her to cheat. It could have been years of them taking petty shots at each other. She would have sold records and the label they were both on would have ate it up. She chose not to do that and I really admire her for it.

38 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Is it bad that I still have a soft spot for Christina Aguilera, even though she seems like an unpleasant person and hasn't released a good album in an embarrassingly long time?

I want to like her, but I can't stand that desperate way she handles her career. I think the Back to Basics sound was best suited for her, and I'm not sure why she didn't evolve that sound over the years instead of trying to keep up with the kids. In 1999, there is no way anyone would believe that in 20 years, Britney would be the one with the Vegas residency and that Christina would be the almost has-been . Christina squandered her career by thinking she had enough clout to reinvent herself with every album like she was Madonna or something. The key to that is choosing strong singles to release and Christina is awful at that.

Edited by AgentRXS
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1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Is it bad that I still have a soft spot for Christina Aguilera, even though she seems like an unpleasant person and hasn't released a good album in an embarrassingly long time? Her first 3 albums still hold nostalgic value, and I do think she's a good singer (maybe she overdoes the riffs, but nobody's perfect). I always wondered why she never thought to record a tribute album to her idol, Etta James. 

Stripped is a masterpiece. No matter what else happens, she'll always have that.

I doubt that's unpopular, though. :) 

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I don't like Stripped, aside from a few songs.

Actually, that's the way it goes with all of Christina's albums for me, even the early classics.  She's an artist where I have to apple-pick my favorite songs, because listening to an entire album of hers wears me out, and not in a good way.  I have no idea why she thinks she needs to try so hard.

Edited by Shakma
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2 hours ago, Shakma said:

I have no idea why she thinks she needs to try so hard.

"Us, either." -- Christina's vocal chords.

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10 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

I get that, but she could have taken a defensive stance and really aired out his shortcomings and imply that those were what lead her to cheat. It could have been years of them taking petty shots at each other. She would have sold records and the label they were both on would have ate it up. She chose not to do that and I really admire her for it.

That's true.

I want to like her, but I can't stand that desperate way she handles her career. I think the Back to Basics sound was best suited for her, and I'm not sure why she didn't evolve that sound over the years instead of trying to keep up with the kids. In 1999, there is no way anyone would believe that in 20 years, Britney would be the one with the Vegas residency and that Christina would be the almost has-been . Christina squandered her career by thinking she had enough clout to reinvent herself with every album like she was Madonna or something. The key to that is choosing strong singles to release and Christina is awful at that.

Oh, so much WORD to this. And let's be clear, Madonna reinvented herself, for one, because she had to. Madonna isn't a great singer, she's not a raving beauty, and at least on her own she wasn't a particularly innovative artist. But she had ambition, she was smart, and she had pop savvy. Plus, you know, The Machine pushed her out there. With Christina, she can sing and can be very pretty when she wants to be...and that's kind of enough. But she got it in her head at an early age that she had to switch up with every era. And on top of that, she wants to take an entire high school term to come out with new albums.

I just feel like she gets wrapped up in trying to make a statement and not just fucking sing. That's one of the great things about Celine and Whitney and OG Mariah...they knew not to cock up their legacy by trying to do too much.

8 hours ago, Shakma said:

I don't like Stripped, aside from a few songs.

Actually, that's the way it goes with all of Christina's albums for me, even the early classics.  She's an artist where I have to apple-pick my favorite songs, because listening to an entire album of hers wears me out, and not in a good way.  I have no idea why she thinks she needs to try so hard.

I can understand that. I love the vocal excesses, but I'm smart enough to know that not everyone does. Her first album probably holds together the best of all her projects. It's also the one that she had the least amount of creative control over, took the shortest amount of time to create (six months), and surprise, sold the best.

What I'd prescribe for Christina is an album-by-committee. Give me a ten track album, under 40 minutes, and no more than three writing credits from Christina. Call Max Martin and Shellback, Danja and Kara DioGuardi, Sia, and maybe even erstwhile songwriters like Lady Gaga and Katy Perry, to see if they can give her a song. Something in the vein of Demi Lovato and Kelly Clarkson's last albums. I also want to see a single with an EDM producer. Kygo, Marshmello, The Chainsmokers (...ugh), somebody. We need HITS. You can go back to being Statement Girl in a decade after you've shown you can still play the game.

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Me: "Bobbie Sue">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Elvira".

Also Me: The Statler Brothers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Oak Ridge Boys.

Go figure. 

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I think I may have said this already somewhere in this thread, but to me, the problem with Christina is that she always has to push being sexy. When he came out with the video for Accelerate, (which was a pretty meh song), I thought it was ridiculous with her milk drinking, & the V sign thing.  It's like being sexy is more important than the song to her.

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Stevie Nicks is a legend, we all know this, but Christine McVie might be most criminally underrated woman in rock history. and "Songbird"--which she wrote and sang lead on--cannot be denied. 

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2 hours ago, UYI said:

Stevie Nicks is a legend, we all know this, but Christine McVie might be most criminally underrated woman in rock history. and "Songbird"--which she wrote and sang lead on--cannot be denied. 

This is a fact. I just saw Fleetwood Mac in November and Christine was spectacular. She sounded amazing and it was a reminder of all the great songs she wrote over the years, songs that still sound fresh. Everywhere could be a Haim bop today.

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I’ve never liked Stevie Nicks’ voice - too goaty.  

I do like the duets she’s done with Don Henley, Tom Petty and Kenny Loggins (I think that was her).

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19 hours ago, GaT said:

I think I may have said this already somewhere in this thread, but to me, the problem with Christina is that she always has to push being sexy. When he came out with the video for Accelerate, (which was a pretty meh song), I thought it was ridiculous with her milk drinking, & the V sign thing.  It's like being sexy is more important than the song to her.

Right. That video seemed like an ad for her brand new lip fillers, anyway. I think the song would’ve been better served in the hands of a lesser singer, specifically Rihanna. It would’ve gotten radio play and likely had a video budget.

Christina does tough better than sexy, IMO. She should’ve taken a note from Pink — after all, she started working with Linda Perry as a result — and not bothered so much with being sexy. Hell, I don’t even think Rihanna puts it in her head that she needs to be sexy all the time. She just has this vaguely noncommittal sexuality that works for her.

Well, Pink has done sexy before. 

Edited by 27bored
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I think Christine McVie's incredible talent and importance to the band is something that those who just like the Fleetwood Mac songs they hear on the radio don't realize, but something that is straight-up truth to those who are fans.

Back when I worked in the music industry, I interacted with many of the band members several times, and they were all very nice (I should note I only dealt with Lindsey Buckingham once, and briefly).  I started to type "especially Mick," and then thought, "Oh, but Chris was always just as nice.  And so was Stevie." 

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How do you guys feel about Camila Cabello? And more specifically, how do you feel about Havana? I think that is one of the most overrated songs in the last five years, and Camila herself is pretty overrated too as a result.

I get why Havana works as a pop song and a vehicle for her. It has an instantly recognizable hook, and thematically it works not only in a radio format but it can sell other shit, which is what pop music is supposed to do. It’s not just an artistic endeavor, it’s supposed to be the soundtrack to our lives. So not only can they promote it to radio but car companies and shampoo companies can use it in their commercials, too.

Plus, low-key, I think there’s a bit of cultural politics at play. There’s been an obvious concerted effort to push Latin artists over the last few years, likely as a response to Trump. Havana has a ubiquity that many hit songs these days don’t, especially hip-hop. I don’t have a problem with them pushing Latin pop or Latin pop artists, the only thing I’ll say is, aside from the fact that I don’t think some of the artists being promoted are particularly good, it kind of annoys me because the downside is once the agenda has been fulfilled, things are gonna get quiet for a lot of them very quickly. And that’s not fair.

Anyway, the thing is, I don’t think it’s a very good song. It would work better as a girl group song, IMO. And even though I don’t think Camila is anything to write home about, I think they’re doing to her kind of what they did to Shakira and Hips Don’t Lie a decade ago. Shakira’s a uniquely talented artist who had some crossover success. Then she caught one with a fairly formulaic novelty Latin pop song, it blew up and was everywhere all the time, and then...that was about it. Shakira still makes music, s d probably has put out other English-language material, but the general public would be hard-pressed to remember any if it. 

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8 hours ago, 27bored said:

How do you guys feel about Camila Cabello? And more specifically, how do you feel about Havana?

I like the song as long as I don't pay attention to the lyrics ("He took me back to East Atlanta, na-na-na", um no, just no) it's very catchy, but when Camila was in Fifth Harmony, I always thought of her as "the one with the funny voice" & I haven't really heard anything else of hers that I like.

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I am not offended by Camilla Cabello, in any way.  I don't take much notice of her, either.  I had no idea she had been a member of Fifth Harmony until, like, a week ago. :P

I have to say that I'm loving Avril Lavigne's new song, Tell Me It's Over:

 

I can see why some might say she's taking Meghan Trainor's lead, with the retro sound and look, but I think it works, for her.  If she does release a new album, I hope this is an indication of its sound.  I like it.

Edited by Shakma

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My only opinion regarding Camilla Cabello is that if there was any question anymore how utterly irrelevant the MTV VMA's have gotten and essentially are just bought by record labels/producers/artists, that was erased when Cabello's predictable and barely interesting, looking like a Rihanna video knock off video for Havana won Video of the Year over Childish Gambino's This Is America. A video that went viral and gave Gambino his first Billboard Number 1, literally shooting to number one overnight, after the video was released. 

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12 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

My only opinion regarding Camilla Cabello is that if there was any question anymore how utterly irrelevant the MTV VMA's have gotten and essentially are just bought by record labels/producers/artists, that was erased when Cabello's predictable and barely interesting, looking like a Rihanna video knock off video for Havana won Video of the Year over Childish Gambino's This Is America. A video that went viral and gave Gambino his first Billboard Number 1, literally shooting to number one overnight, after the video was released. 

Word.

By the way, I think it’s stuff like that that ultimately kills careers. When it feels like you’re being pushed out there even when the material is lackluster, or overhyped, that’s when people start pulling back. You mentioned Rihanna. I’ve heard that one thing she doesn’t do is try to pull strings to win certain awards or keep from winning awards.

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I really like the original version of Blinded by the Light by Bruce Springsteen.  I still prefer the remake by Manfred Mann, but the original is oddly appealing to me.

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10 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

I really like the original version of Blinded by the Light by Bruce Springsteen.  I still prefer the remake by Manfred Mann, but the original is oddly appealing to me.

I agree.

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Re Taylor Swift:

 

 OK, on the positive side, I am very impressed and think it's great that she writes all her own songs so that it's her very own voice singing what she believes in and I always give kudos for staying creative in an industry where they expect performers to be  Pez dispensers re what TPTB would consider trendy and marketable. Good or bad at least she's kept her own voice and nothing can take that away from her regardless of the negative side.

 On the negative side. I can't say I personally like singers who  consistently sing in a whiny tone (though I know that's still somewhat trendy)  and I'd like to hear her attempt a song in which she completely resists putting whines in- as I think she has the raw talent to do it but, AFIAK, has not done so [I admit it's been a few years since I've attempted to seek out her material].  I also think it's a bit much that she's 29 years old, yet still expects her audience to consider her completely fault-free re every single busted romance as though she's a naive 18-year-old ingenue who'd never been to the rodeo before. I'd like her to either own her own part of things having gone bust or, at the very least, admit that she hasn't had the best luck in picking 'em and needs to work on improving that. Maybe it's time for her to consider just owning that she's not ready to settle and is content to be a player for the time being. AFAIK, it seems only Connor Kennedy has been immune to not having her broadcast how/why things ended with them via her songs. Yes, she doesn't spill her guts via the rags and she can sing about whoever and whatever she wants. However; in doing so, her pleas for privacy seem rather hollow (and she's somewhat setting herself up so that only publicity worshipers and masochists would want to go out with her for fear that she'd almost literally sing like a canary to the world when things were to go wrong).  Also, the whole 'friend posse' thing is a bit much inasmuch as IMO it's not the number of claimed friends one has that counts but rather how sincere each individual  friend is. Even ONE sincere, trustworthy friend is worth a gross of users, sycophants, etc and  proclaiming one has zillions of friends just makes one look insecure rather than somehow being a better person for having that number, IMO.  And re the celeb feuds, she's due to be 30 at the end of the year and while 40 is the new 30, IMO 30 should not be considered the new 13 re junior high 'tude. 

    

   As I said in the first paragraph, Miss Swift has a great deal of gifts she can give to the world and has the resources to at least take all the time she needs to consider what her ultimate priorities need to be  and I truly hope she finds her peace. 

Edited by Blergh · Reason: no a
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13 hours ago, Blergh said:

  And re the celeb feuds, she's due to be 30 at the end of the year and while 40 is the new 30, IMO 30 should not be considered the new 13 re junior high 'tude. 

*Slow clap*

Can everyone in the music industry please heed this advice? Pick your battles, realize that some things are not worth pissing and moaning about, and be the adults you allegedly are! Stop acting like preschoolers fighting over a toy!

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Why can’t I unreservedly like an Ariana Grande song? I don’t know what it is. People keep complimenting her and I keep being underwhelmed. 

I didn’t think Thank U, Next was anything special. As a matter of fact, it felt bitchy and petty. Imagine felt like a Disney ballad. This new song, 7 Rings, is unbelievable. As in, she doesn’t sound believable. I don’t buy Ariana as an ingenue, a diva, or a bad bitch. She’s just kinda there, for me. Pretty girl, pretty voice. With every release she just seems less like a young Mariah and more like Tinashe with a budget and a whistle register. In fact, on the rapping part of 7 Rings, she sounds like Tinashe a little bit.

Edited by 27bored
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On 1/1/2019 at 10:20 AM, UYI said:

Lorrie Morgan is one of the most underrated country artists of all time. 

Lorrie Morgan singlehandedly kicked off my short country phase in the mid-90s. I watched a Women in Country Music special on TV, and LM did "Something in Red." Newly engaged, I saw my whole life just laid out before my eyes, and was moved to tears. He voice and that song just slayed me.

UO:  I don't care about Taylor Swift's love life, ex boyfriends, feuds, etc.  She writes great songs, and if those are her inspirations, have at it. I'd listen to the acoustic version of "Blank Space" 100 times in a row if I could.  Songwriting as therapy\revenge isn't new. Fleetwood Mac was champion at it for a time. Judging from the Reputation special on Netflix, she gives a great concert experience as well.  

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1 hour ago, Archery said:

Lorrie Morgan singlehandedly kicked off my short country phase in the mid-90s. I watched a Women in Country Music special on TV, and LM did "Something in Red." Newly engaged, I saw my whole life just laid out before my eyes, and was moved to tears. He voice and that song just slayed me.

 

You are referring to this:

 

And please join me in the country thread! I feel so lonely there sometimes, I'm basically the only person who posts there now.

I guess my UO is that I hate that the only way some people will like country artists (like say, Taylor Swift) is if they do everything they can to sound as un-country as possible (even Dolly Parton's songs that are the most popular seem to be the ones with least "twang", and I don't just mean the obvious crossover stuff like "9 to 5"--I mean even "Coat of Many Colors", "I Will Always Love You", and "Jolene", too--all GREAT songs, but probably overall the least "twangy" of all her country hits, too--in a related UO, my favorite of hers is probably her first country number one hit, "Joshua", which is VERY twangy).

I grew up only listening to rock and pop music, mostly, but as I got older, I started gradually becoming more interested in country, and now it is absolutely my favorite genre (although rock will always be up there for me, too).

Now, don't get me wrong: I know a lot of country radio this last decade has been pretty bad (in LARGE part due to the lack of women), but I just like listening to country from any era, whether it's mainstream or alt-country. I don't why this happened; I don't think it's just that I grew up in a rural area; it took me until I was 26 to really get into it. And while I understand that there are those who lean more towards pop-country, I sometimes wish more people felt comfortable to sound more traditionally country if that's what they love, you know? Taylor Swift talked in her early years a lot about how her classmates made fun for her for liking country music in middle school, because they didn't think it was cool. I can't help but wonder if part of her move to pop had to do with that stigma around the genre and the need to be seen as more cool. I mean, it may not be, as she was always pretty pop-sounding anyway, but it makes me curious. 

I don't know, there's an all music forum I know about/an active country sub-forum that I could finally sign up for and talk more about there, I just hate to spend less time here because I'm less likely to find people to talk about country with me than I am about rock or pop, but I don't want to look too lame or uncool when I'm the only one posting in the country thread, either, lol. I HOPE I don't look like that, at least. :)

Edited by UYI
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7 hours ago, 27bored said:

Why can’t I unreservedly like an Ariana Grande song? I don’t know what it is. People keep complimenting her and I keep being underwhelmed. 

I didn’t think Thank U, Next was anything special. As a matter of fact, it felt bitchy and petty. Imagine felt like a Disney ballad. This new song, 7 Rings, is unbelievable. As in, she doesn’t sound believable. I don’t buy Ariana as an ingenue, a diva, or a bad bitch. She’s just kinda there, for me. Pretty girl, pretty voice. With every release she just seems less like a young Mariah and more like Tinashe with a budget and a whistle register. In fact, on the rapping part of 7 Rings, she sounds like Tinashe a little bit.

 

You know, I'm starting to agree with you.  I really like a couple of Ariana's songs, but I feel like I'm missing something, with this new album.  It's a good, perfectly enjoyable album, but it isn't that  great.  I think because everyone else is so bland in comparison, and Ariana is one of the few who can actually sing, she's propped up as a great artist, when she is merely a good one.  I felt the same way when Taylor Swift first came on the scene, and everyone marveled at how she wrote her own songs.  She was fine, but she wasn't the second coming of Joni Mitchell, the way some people were saying.  And Thank U, Next is totally forgettable.  So, I'll sit at the kids' table, with you. ;P

Edited by Shakma

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8 hours ago, 27bored said:

Why can’t I unreservedly like an Ariana Grande song? I don’t know what it is. People keep complimenting her and I keep being underwhelmed. 

I didn’t think Thank U, Next was anything special. As a matter of fact, it felt bitchy and petty. Imagine felt like a Disney ballad. This new song, 7 Rings, is unbelievable. As in, she doesn’t sound believable. I don’t buy Ariana as an ingenue, a diva, or a bad bitch. She’s just kinda there, for me. Pretty girl, pretty voice. With every release she just seems less like a young Mariah and more like Tinashe with a budget and a whistle register. In fact, on the rapping part of 7 Rings, she sounds like Tinashe a little bit.

The video for "7 Rings" is posted in the Sounds Of Our Lives thread, & this is the comment I posted:

Quote

Why can't this girl enunciate? I started listening but couldn't understand a damn word she sings.

I never know what she's singing about.

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Quoting this Tweet from last year, which is in itself a UO (number 73):

YES YES YES! If there is ONE thing that would bring rock music back to life again as mainstream and/or radio force, recognizing female artists in terms of airplay and promotion is probably it. As much as I complain about country ignoring women on the radio this past decade, rock's overall record is EMBARRASSING. Yes, there's Heart. Yes, there's The Runaways. Yes, there's The Go-Go's. Yes, there's The Waitresses. Yes, there's Joan Jett and Pat Benatar. Yes, there's Sheryl Crow. Yes, there's Hayley Williams from Paramore and Florence Welch from Florence and the Machine today. But overall, rock music from day one has been a SAUSAGE FEST. By comparison, country and hip-hop have had a LOT more women who have found lasting success, even though the charts as they stand in both genres today don't really reflect that much at all. But rock music...Jesus Christ, I was SO blind to this issue for so long, it's pathetic.

But I really do think women hold the key to a brighter, more relevant future for the genre. I only hope someone in the industry finally realizes that. 

Also, in another UO related to this topic: Quarterflash do NOT get enough love. This song is great. THAT SAX RIFF.

Edited by UYI
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Don't forget Halestorm fronted by Lzzy (Yes, that is how she spells her name!) Hale.

As for Quarterflash above, while that song, "Harden My Heart" was their big hit, I preferred this one, which early MTV also played ad nauseum:

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I have "harden My Heart" downloaded, but it wasn't until I just listened to "Find Another Fool" that I realized how much Rindy Ross sounds like Hayley Williams from Paramore (or I guess it's Hayley Williams sounds like Rindy Ross)

Edited by GaT

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2 hours ago, Archery said:

UYI:  Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!  

You're welcome! I've watched that special twice and Lorrie is one of the highlights for sure!

Here's a big UO, one I think I've actually shared here before:

I am a big Guns N' Roses fan. My screen name stands for Use Your Illusion. The reason? As great as Appetite for Destruction is--and it is indeed a classic--I find myself enjoying the UYI albums a LOT more overall. Another UO: While the bigger hits are on UYI 1, overall I find UYI 2 a more enjoyable listen from start to finish, as it feels more consistent and sonically cohesive (except of course for the song "My World", which Axl snuck on the album at the last minute--like everyone else, I think that song is unlistenable dogshit).

Lastly: The trilogy of "Don't Cry" (even the alternate version on UYI 2!), "November Rain", and "Estranged">>>>>>>>>>>"Sweet Child O'Mine". The latter is a classic, but those first three slay me every time. 

(Sidenote: Axl Rose is an INCREDIBLY underrated vocalist--his range on "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" in particular is insane--if you didn't know any better, you'd think there were two people singing instead of just one!)

Edited by UYI
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@UYI, being a big GN'R fan, have you ever heard the demo for "Don't Cry"? (You can almost say it is a third version as it sounds more scaled back.) I first remember hearing it back when syndicated satellite radio hard-rock station Z-Rock (RIP) played it, and I recall some were wondering if it was really Axl on vocals for the demo. (It was.) Here it is. The uploader put the year as 1987, but I believe the demo was actually recorded in 1986, 5 years before the Use Your Illusion double album. BTW, I'm sure you already probably know this, but one of the backup singers for the song was Shannon Hoon, the late lead singer of Blind Melon, best known for the song, "No Rain", with the weird bee girl video.

 

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@WendyCR72 a LONG time ago, I can't remember the last time I actually listened to it until now, but yes I have! And yes, Shannon Hoon, Axl and Izzy became friends because they all grew up in Indiana (well, Axl and Izzy actually grew up together) and connected over that.

There is also a great, very short version of "November Rain":

And I just found this for the first time!

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21 hours ago, UYI said:

Lastly: The trilogy of "Don't Cry" (even the alternate version on UYI 2!), "November Rain", and "Estranged">>>>>>>>>>>"Sweet Child O'Mine". The latter is a classic, but those first three slay me every time. 

 

'Estranged' does not get enough love. Nor does 'You Could Be Mine' which I fucking LOVE. Use Your Illusion 1 & 2 were the fucking real deal.

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