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S09.E12: Hell Bent

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Some of the Gallifrey stuff was overly convoluted (as I've come to expect from Gallifrey stuff), but I really liked all the Doctor/Clara/Me stuff. Though as Maisie Williams is back to being called Ashildr in the end credits, I guess she can be called that again.

 

I'd definitely listen to some audio adventures of an unageing Clara and Ashildr travelling through time and space in a diner-shaped TARDIS.

 

I hope we see more of the New General. The whole Rassilon thing was brought up and discarded fairly quickly though; I think they could probably have figured out a way to do the episode without that part of the story and cut down on the running time.

 

The Christmas special looks fun. Not sure why we needed two different trailers though?

Edited by ApathyMonger

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What was the point of that? 65 minutes of Doctor Who to give two big faced women a spin off series from hell. I've been quite the Moffat booster, but this last series seems so pointless in retrospect - it was all building to this? Last weeks episode seemed to be a powerful rumination on grief and loss, but no, Twelve is becoming even more arrogant and hateful than Ten when you get him on the subject of Saint Chav. This was worth a prolonged fart around on Gallifrey, more glorifying of Clara, the Doctor killing a Time Lord who'd been quite on his side, and the Doctor loosing his memory for at least 30 seconds?

 

Clara used to be the Impossible Girl. Now she's the Unflushable Girl, and she has all of the appeal of a bloody turd.

Edited by HauntedBathroom
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I really wished for a John Simm (cameo) regeneration into Michelle Gomez this episode ! Well, sadly it didnt come to pass.

 

Actually, I enjoyed that finale though I'm let down by quite a few stuff, but, well, in the end, it had really decent (and some awesome) moments. Sad we didnt get a Missy appearance, I think her non-presence (apart from the opening two-parters) is my biggest let-down of the series.

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I liked bits of it - the Timelord soldiers laying down their guns was quite effective - but not the way it meandered.  I still don't quite understand who was plotting what, or if the Hybrid threat had ended by the end of the episode.  If we hadn't been spoiled for PC doing the Christmas special there might have been some genuine tension when he seemed to have taken on Clara's death.

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the highlight for me: the Christmas teaser. River makes everything better. I'm kinda hoping The Doctor asks her how Amy and Rory are doing the last time she saw them or is she also blocked from that time? I would love it if they made River his new companion just for a little while if nothing else just so we can find out how she came into possession of Captain Jack's gun (OK I'll admit I just wanna see River meet Jack just to watch The Doctor's freaking out when Jack inevitably comes on to her).

 

the rest was alright to me, I'm just glad the damn sonic sunglasses are gone and the new screwdriver rocks!!

Edited by madhacker
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I liked it a fair amount.  I don't think the Hybrid storyline is completely done.  It's not like Moffat hasn't drawn out threads for more than a season before.

 

I also thought the reversal was a nice call back to just how shitty Donna's exit from the show was.  I admit I'm surprised they left it open for her to come back again  Apparently only Karen has the strength to say absolutely no more

 

I can't wait for 12's version of the screwdriver to come out.

 

I've heard the rumours that Jenna wanted out at the end of last season, but changed her mind when she didn't get the kind of offers that Karen got, waited until Christmas, still hadn't got them so went for one more year.

The fact that guest appearances are still possible makes me wonder if she's still unsure of her post Who career.

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I hate that every year we get a 1 hour special instead of a 45 minute episode - and it has less plot than normal to fill the time. Although I didn't mind the Doctor facing down the soldiers (although you do wonder what screening process Gallifrey uses for its soldiers if NONE of them were prepared to shoot to kill the Doctor) and deposing Rassillon (and fair enough - he had imprisoned the Doctor for 10 billion years so THAT was justifiable), shooting the Security Chief was just plain vindictive (the sort of thing I'd expect the Master/Missy to do). And while I accept changes will happen between the old & new series, if that was meant to be the Matrix Data Bank - well then not only have we seen the Doctor visit it a couple of times before (in The Deadly Assassin and The Trial of a Time Lord) but he had no trouble leaving - though I did think the "Enemy creatures get involuntarily filed into the system" was quite a cool idea.

 

I was really hoping that Clara would say "I don't want to die, but I don't want to destroy the Universe to live!" (or something similar). You would think that given the last time a "Fixed Point" death was averted and caused reality to go on the blink the Doctor would be more careful about allowing somebody to live who was supposed to die. And if I had to have some random immortal wondering the Univrse in a TARDIS, I'd prefer it to be Captain Jack!

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(OK I'll admit I just wanna see River meet Jack just to watch The Doctor's freaking out when Jack inevitably comes on to her).

 

Really, if they're reaching back for River, and I think AK is talented and gorgeous, bring back Jack for an adventure. I'll watch that and love it. 

 

I didn't really care for the "we're so much alike!" No, not really. The Doctor is pushing 1500 years and has done some epic and heroic acts; universe-scale acts. Clara is basically a nice person who cares about people, but she's an adrenaline junkie, and it got her killed. I fully understand the Doctor feeling guilty about it, and wanting to change it. But, Clara gets rewarded with immortality (potentially) for it? I don't think that's earned. Ashildr? She earned it. I have no problem with her taking the TARDIS and roaming around the universe. I don't think she's a bad person. However, Clara just doesn't sit right with me. The Doctor didn't make any mistake that got her killed in the first place. He can feel guilty about it, but it's not his fault. All that, I was actually quite more engaged with JC in this episode than all season. 

So the "new" TARDIS was like the original for One, right? I thought that was fun. 

 

I don't really think this hybrid concept went anywhere and don't know why they bothered with it. 

 

I actually thought for a minute that the device was going to let Clara regenerate.

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I knew exactly where this was going (I knew 100% they'd find a loophole in her death and part her from The Doctor in some other way), and also that the "Clara acts like a mini-Doctor" haters would be driven into screaming passions by this.  It's early yet, but trust me. This and similar places are going to fill up with the loathing for that.

 

I myself never hated the idea that humans who became immortal could achieve at least a decent amount of what a Time Lord could do, so Clara and Ashieldr being that clever doesn't bother me personally. We've seen humans become super-powerful before, so it's hardly new to this show.

 

What I did hate was how horribly this storyline treated the Timelords. They didn't come off as threats at all. Just as a bunch of lamebrained not so bright followers, who were little better than Keystone Space Cops. On balance that made this one of the worst things this reboot has ever done, even if the part that's bound to be bothering so many others (Clara being such a magical special creature) isn't part of what bothers me.

 

I suppose there's the dual purpose here that this has now not only restored the Time Lords, but reinforced that the Doctor isn't welcome there. But the way they did it was pretty stupid... pretty lame.

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Let me see if I've got this straight: the Doctor/Clara team up is the Hybrid, something so horrible that it trumps the Time War itself, has been the cause of endless, doom-filled prophesies, and the fear of it is why the Doctor stole a TARDIS and ran away from  Gallifrey in the first place? Welp, I can get behind that.

 

You know, I'm okay with Clara Special Snowflaking herself a TARDIS, and roaming though time and space with Ashildr, as long as I NEVER, EVER have to see her again. Bonus points for the Doctor not remembering her. Hey, that means Amy and Rory are the last companions the Doctor remembers. Thanks, Moffat!

 

Next up: a much needed dose of River to wash the rancid taste of THAT PERSON THE DOCTOR DOESN'T REMEMBER (TPTDDR) out of our mouths! Joy to the World!

Edited by Lokiberry
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I was mostly confused by this episode. I only started watching Doctor Who in the middle of Eleven, then went back and watched eleven from the beginning. So I'm really lacking in back story when it comes to the doctor and Gallifrey.

For the most part this hasnt been too much of an issue and I just enjoy the story even if I don't really understand how it got there. But wow, this is the first time I really think I'm missing something major! Anyone care to explain?

Why does he hate that old man? Why did he give up on saving Amy and Rory when it was so easy for him to stop Clara's death? How does Gallifrey exist? I thought it was destroyed by the doctor then somehow saved by the doctor and put in some other dimension. How did a planet that was supposedly in another dimension mess with the doctor's confession dial in order to find out what the hybrid is? Is the hybrid canon or totally made up recently since I've never heard of it before a couple episodes ago?

If anyone can answer some that would be so helpful! The last time I was thrown for a loop for this show was when I caught a re run of ten at a library with River and she DIES!! Mind blown since I thought she was alive all through Eleven'so run (I know technically that's true but had no idea she is also technically dead)

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So after all that time since locking Gallifrey away of wondering where it was, they just kind of figured out how to bring themselves back and are hiding at the end of time.

 

That's either ridiculously stupid as a way to avoid resolving the puzzle, or it's utterly brilliant.  They're clever, they got back somehow, the details don't matter, deal with it.

 

And was that supposed to be his mother? Beautiful scene of recognition and then swish never mentioned again?

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Hey, that means Amy and Rory are the last companions the Doctor remembers. Thanks, Moffat!

 

As much as I loved Jenna and I even liked Clara better than Amy ... who got under my skin until Rory started appearing more often.  He may not remember "her" but he does remember the idea of her ... hence, the entire plot of the episode based around him looking for her and finding her but not even acknowledging that he found her once he found the Tardis. If he's smart, he'll realize there's a reason why she didn't tell him who she was, and even when she joked she might be who he was looking for, his brain refused to accept it (Her face was on the friggin' Tardis and he just saw her) and move on. 

 

I'm going to go with, weird "Ben is Glory" mental block that prevents him from getting it even if he goes on Google and looks her up. So it's more, "Amy, Rory and then there was Clara but I can't remember her or what she looked like but I know she was there and we did things at some point."

 

Maybe Ashildr and Clara will run into Jenny. Remember Jenny? No one else does. Nor do they bother with anything pre Moffat.  Ugh. 

 

Why did he give up on saving Amy and Rory when it was so easy for him to stop Clara's death?

 

They died natural deaths of old age but in an area of time the Doctor couldn't reach. Amy even wrote him a special note to tell him that they were fine before he had time to really act and try and figure out a way to reach them. That's a bit different than Clara, who sacrificed her life foolishly.  So he just left well enough alone. Amy and Rory had happy, full lives. Clara, wouldn't have had that ending. 

Edited by FiveByFive
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At least we can confirm that "the hybrid is me" meant "Me". Although since it seems he wasn't 100% certain, but just his best theory, using it as the door-slam last words last week is kind of over the top.

 

I liked how their discussion of the hybrid mirrored fan discussions.  "Maybe it's Me -- human and Mire" "No, maybe it's the Doctor, remember that half-human stuff from the movie" "Well maybe it's something completely different that none of us have thought of yet."

 

I do like the idea that the hybrid isn't a single creature, but more like a symbiotic relationship.

 

Not yet sure how it ties into "destroying a billion hearts and stand in the ruins of Gallifrey"... maybe that's a clue that this storyline is NOT done, that Clara has NOT made a clean and utterly final irrevocable exit, that her avoiding the fixed point in time issue ends up making another crack in time or something.

 

Oooh, this kind of makes sense -- why the timelords decided to give him more regenerations back when Twelve was dying. Didn't make sense, Clara begged "if you ever loved him" but honestly, most of those in command didn't. But if they knew he had info on the hybrid, and if he died now he wouldn't get uploaded to the matrix, then they needed to re-buffer him.

 

Though... if the reason he left in the first place was because of the hybrid, and if the fear of the hybrid is what led to the Timelords doing all this... why did they never ask him before? Wouldn't that have come up, say, during the Time War? You know, when it appeared that Gallifrey might fall to ruins? And the Doctor was standing in the middle of it with the Moment? Wouldn't they have said "oh look, I guess this is what that hybrid prophecy was talking about."

 

Liked that the screwdriver is back, hot damn.

 

And I did like the twist at the end, where it was indeed the Doctor who forgot. The background diner scene led you to believe that we were getting the story of how she ended up there with her memory wiped, but it wasn't that at all. The twist was well done.

 

Did we have some of Amy's music at certain points? It was familiar but I'm not certain it was Amy's...

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Mixed feelings here--wish we didn't have to spend so much time on Clara, but the ending did touch me, with the Doctor having to forget her.  I never hated her, but I got tired of her being the Most Important Companion EVER.  She got the most elaborate send-off of any companion, so hopefully that's it and we won't see her again for LONG time.  And it does seem that Moffat is finally ready to let her go, with the paint (from the flowers and Clara's image) flying off the TARDIS.

 

Things I loved: 

The elaborate Time Lord outfits--they never fail to make me smile.

The classic TARDIS (but NOT the diner template for it).

When the General first comes to talk to the Doctor at the barn, Twelve just silently goes back into the barn.

The Cloister Wraiths--so intriguing.  Hope we explore those again.

The shoutout to Rory and Amy.

The final scene of Twelve putting on his coat, getting his new sonic screwdriver (YES!), and setting the TARDIS on a new course.

I like how it changed from "Run you clever boy, and remember" to "Run you clever boy, and be a doctor."  (Because he can't remember her anymore, but he can go back to what he used to be before he met her, before he became grief-stricken and vengeful.)

And as always, Capaldi.  He's the best.

 

I'm excited for the Christmas Special and for S10.  It seems like we'll get a fresh start with a re-energized Doctor--can't wait.

 

ETA: And Missy's still out there; she came up with some sort of plan with the Daleks back in "The Witch's Familiar," so that thread will have to be picked up again sometime.  Looking forward to that, too!

Edited by alrightokay
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I'm just glad the sonic sunglasses are gone for good -- but where did they go ?  Last we saw of them they were on the counter in the diner (which was in effect part of the new and improved Tardis).

 

So does this mean that The Doctor -- who was already 2000+ years old -- remembers all 4 and a half billion years spent in the confession dial ?

 

Was it Ashildr that was knocking on the Tardis door at the end of the Universe -- because The Doctor said that it was him that was knocking (since it was always 4 times) ?  Little confused on that.

 

I was really hoping that Clara would stay dead.

 

And the technology in Ashildr's head never crapped out after 4 and half billion years -- nor did her language skills evolve in all that time, because I would think that she might pick up a different accent along the way.

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wow....what a troll job by moffat to the clara haters, lol.....luv it....i'm sure her resurrection "broke a billion hearts".....the trolling alone makes this season finale perfect.........

Edited by lovebug1975
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Also I appreciate that it acknowledged the common fan complaint that the Doctor was too obsessed with Clara. Okay then, this episode says, you're right. It wasn't healthy. Rather than the companion providing the balance, keeping him in check and in touch with his humanity, etc, as they usually do, this companion drove him to such depths of obsession that he would go far and be willing to break the universe to keep her from dying.

 

So all the OOC stuff, like shooting a gun, is just showing how broken and unhealthy he is. He needed to forget her in order to be healthy -- her forgetting him wasn't going to do it. He would have continued to obsess -- he would have gone to find her and told her everything in a cryptic story and hope she'd figure it out.

 

Was it Ashildr that was knocking on the Tardis door at the end of the Universe -- because The Doctor said that it was him that was knocking (since it was always 4 times) ?  Little confused on that.

 

He said "it's Me."  The four knocks thing was just world-weariness, I think -- an unpleasant coincidence. It did have me hoping that Missy would be there.

 

Can you imagine if not-dead-but-not-living-Clara, immortal Me, and Timelady Missy got together and ponced around the universe in their stolen diner tardis?

 

So the whole diner, the whole time, was an illusion made by the Tardis' chameleon circuit. But the Doctor used his sunglasses in order to set up the radio to respond to his guitar. I can understand the Tardis 'cooperating' to make it look like that. But wouldn't his sunglasses be able to recognize, "hey, mr timelord dude, this isn't a real diner it's a timelord illusion"?

 

I do like the irony that the first last thing Clara said to him (ie, the first clara he met) was 'run you clever boy, and remember me.' And he did, for hundreds and hundreds of years. But in the end, the one thing he can't do is remember her.

 

And you know, for all the special snowflakeness, from the Doctor's perspective, it's understandable why she's so worthy of obsession. Most companions would be with him for only, say, a few years or so. Probably more time passing than what we see on TV, and surely with some solo side jaunts making his timeline progress more quickly than that of his companions, but still no more than, say, a century from the Dr's point of view and most likely just a few years. Amy and Rory existed in his life for a few hundred -- he took that 200 year sojourn where he didn't see them, but he was still 'with them'.

 

But Clara, she was his Clara for ever and ever and ever. For the many hundred years he spent on Christmas  -- again, though most were without her, he was still with her in spirit. Plus she split into his time stream and was with him basically for all 2000+ years of his existence, popping up in every iteration. She was literally the human with the most influence over his existence, ever.

 

Still, I wish all this "get off my planet" marvelousness was him actually taking control of Gallifrey in order to save GALLIFREY, not just to save Clara. Did I hear the general call him "Lord President"? So it's official that that's his office again?

 

Oh and possibly the best little side bit, was the general regenerating into a woman, and saying "finally, back to normal". Ha!! 

 

And a black woman, no less, which definitely opens the door to "ethnic" actors playing the doctor in the future!

 

I wondered how the general recovered from regeneration so quickly though. Are regenerations easier when on Gallifrey?

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the highlight for me: the Christmas teaser. River makes everything better. I'm kinda hoping The Doctor asks her how Amy and Rory are doing the last time she saw them or is she also blocked from that time? I would love it if they made River his new companion just for a little while if nothing else just so we can find out how she came into possession of Captain Jack's gun (OK I'll admit I just wanna see River meet Jack just to watch The Doctor's freaking out when Jack inevitably comes on to her).

 

the rest was alright to me, I'm just glad the damn sonic sunglasses are gone and the new screwdriver rocks!!

 

Which gun?

 

I'm just glad the sonic sunglasses are gone for good -- but where did they go ?  Last we saw of them they were on the counter in the diner (which was in effect part of the new and improved Tardis).

 

So does this mean that The Doctor -- who was already 2000+ years old -- remembers all 4 and a half billion years spent in the confession dial ?

 

Was it Ashildr that was knocking on the Tardis door at the end of the Universe -- because The Doctor said that it was him that was knocking (since it was always 4 times) ?  Little confused on that.

 

I was really hoping that Clara would stay dead.

 

And the technology in Ashildr's head never crapped out after 4 and half billion years -- nor did her language skills evolve in all that time, because I would think that she might pick up a different accent along the way.

I think that's where they stayed and they now belong to Clara and Ashildr.

Well 12 face is of a man he once met... for all we know this future billions of year old Ashildr is actually a future regeneration of the doctor? probably not, but I can dream.

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So . . .  the Hybrid . . . was the Doctor and Clara? Um . . . huh?!?

 

Man, deep-thinking arcs are not meant for the likes of me. I'm more into moments where the general race and gender-bends upon regeneration, because I know Moffat wants to troll the audience.  But an ending where Clara (in a similar state as Jack?) and Ashildr travel through time and space in a classic TARDIS? Done up as an American diner? What the what?!?

 

And did we ever find out why Missy hooked Clara up with the Doctor in the first place? That still bugs me for some reason.

 

The Doctor looping for 4.5 billion years . . . that's even longer than Lister was frozen on Red Dwarf, yes? But less than the time that the Earth burned out in Rose's first adventure in time and space?

 

One good thing about a season running this late . . . we don't have to wait long for the Christmas special. Twelve and River make for a sweet pairing, especially since River doesn't look like she has to buy smokes and booze for her boyfriend anymore.

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I liked it.

My favorite parts were the beginning from the Doctor silently ignoring the demands of the government to the soldier telling the Commander guy "The first thing you'll notice about the Doctor of War is that he's unarmed. For many its also the last." and then walking over to his side.

I also enjoyed Clara's take down of the Gallifreyans. She was horrified that they let The Doctor spend so much time that prison place and their response just pissed her off. The Doctor's obsession with Clara wasn't healthy but it made sense in the story the show was telling especially this season.

I also enjoyed that it wasn't Clara who lost her memory it was the Doctor. I liked that Clara and Me are going to take the long way back to Gallifreyan so that Clara will have her death. However they have some wiggle room. It would be too easy for the Doctor to be stuck in a season long manpain which would get tiresome very quickly. I think thy way was clever. It let Clara end as Clara.

So . . . the Hybrid . . . was the Doctor and Clara

Sometimes you have people who bring out the worst instincts in each other. You could make a case that that's what Clara and The Doctor do. Clara was unaware of her own mortality when she was with the Doctor and the Doctor was willing to do against his own principals and destroy time itself for Clara.

Think what they could do if they actually tried.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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I just couldn't get into this episode.  There were too many headscratchers that kept pulling me out.  (Though I'll admit the ending with the memory twist was neat.)

 

A few of the more jarring questions I had, in no particular order:

 

1. How did Gallifrey become so powerful if it's run by incompetent noobs?

 

2. Why did the Doctor so hate soldiers last season if we're now being told that Gallifreyan soldiers will mutiny before harming him because they love him so much?

 

3. How could Ashildr live to the literal end of time, "watching stars die" for entertainment, and yet somehow be ready to jump right into a conversation with the Doctor about who the Hybrid is?  It's like finding a guy who's been adrift in a lifeboat for a year and a half and all he wants to do is bicker about onion rings.

 

4. The Doctor using a gun -- shooting somebody -- to get what he wants from the extraction room was absurd.  I saw tankgirl73's explanation above but it still pissed me off at the time and it's a larger problem this show now has, of showing crappy stuff and then after the fact explaining it.

 

5. What good would a memory wipe do in a world of, you know, technology?  The Doctor doesn't have a single photo, video, writing, drawing, clothing, or anything of Clara?  You could wipe my memory of my kids, eg, and then I'd look at my phone and boom.

 

6. Did they say Gallifrey was 4.5 billion years in the future?  Because if that's so (and not just how long he was in the disc), then the universe will be materially the same then as it is now.  

 

7. Why didn't anyone just go into the barn and get the Doctor?  The sequence of emissaries coming out to try to meet him, while funny, was also ludicrous.

 

I'm sure there are more.  I just don't like the way this show is going.  Whatever.

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Well I'm pretty sure I read somewhere the gun River uses (mostly seen in the Silence episodes back in the 70's) seems to look like the pistol Jack Harkness uses, so it's assumed that she acquired it from him at some point during her adventures.

 

I'd just be happy seeing Jack again on the show but since John is too busy on the CW network these days I'm kinda doubting we'll be seeing Jack any time soon......

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This was better than I thought, having been spoiled. I assume this hybrid arc will continue for 12's tenure. Best line: "I didn't want to make them feel clever." When the Doctor referenced four knocks, like 11's death, I was hoping for a bit of Missy but I think that would have derailed this storyline. The Doctor always goes to lengths to save his companions. Looks like the writers were afraid to have an unhappy ending. Every companion had a bad exit for NuWho. This is the first time in a long time I've liked Clara with the Doctor. I even smiled when they played her song and thought of her leaf. This parting was so much more satisfying than Death by Raven. Even better, future doctors will not know her!

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Well 12 face is of a man he once met...

I expected them to revisit the guy in Pompeii to resolve why The Doctor "chose" his face.

 

 

So . . .  the Hybrid . . . was the Doctor and Clara? Um . . . huh?!?

Remember when the guy was decorating the TARDIS? He put a photo of Clara on it but it wasn't until this episode I realized it was half Clara and half Ashildr. Maybe it was just the half of each ones faces. But, I took it to mean she/ they are the hybrid.

 

 

Maybe Ashildr and Clara will run into Jenny. Remember Jenny? No one else does. Nor do they bother with anything pre Moffat.  Ugh.

 

There's lot of loose ends floating through space and time, aren't there?

 

I looked at this episode as a cleverly tied ribbon with many elaborate bows and presented as a gift without a package to go with it.

 

Perhaps I just expected for Clara to end up as a Dalek like the show teased earlier in the season. Left where she began in the show. But

 

 

Clara and Me

 

Reads like the title for a spin off, doesn't it?

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Just gonna say this: What the hell did I just watch? Sure, I liked it, but what the hell? The Doctor pretty much got off easy for, as he was told, breaking every rule that he had. I liked Clara but hell I'm with her, she ain't worth breaking the universe over.
 

I am, however, excited about what misadventures Ashildir & Clara would get in to in a time traveling 50s diner. Fitting that a diner themed on a moment of time standing still becomes a time machine.

 

As for the new screwdriver: loving it already. Does it resemble the one River eventually gets or is that just wishful thinking from me? Speaking of her,

wasn't it confirmed that the Christmas special takes place earlier in her timeline? I kind of hope not, but

River meeting 12 looks like cheesy fun.

 

EDIT: Again, I was correct in assuming that the Eye Gunk Monster episode is still pointless.

Edited by Galileo908
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Clara Who? NO.

 

What the hell did I just watch.

 

ETA: Though I did like the memory twist because of its poignancy. And Ohila.

 

Clara's continued pulseless existence, Rassilon devolved into a ranting old crabface, the Matrix now this creepy-ass place with wraiths and creatures...no. I felt sorriest for that trapped Dalek.

 

I feel like I need a marathon of Tom Baker episodes just to feel some equilibrium. /rant

Edited by HouseofBeck
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Sometimes you have people who bring out the worst instincts in each other.  You could make a case that that's what Clara and The Doctor do.  Clara was unaware of her own mortality when she was with the Doctor and the Doctor was willing to do against his own principals and destroy time itself for Clara.

 

Think what they could do if they actually tried.

 

The first part is very true.

What I don't like it the thought that The Doctor believed he could fix this situation when he acknowledged how bad the situation was. He can do many wonderful things but he's not a god. In the end, he left everything up to chance and it ended the way it would have anyway.

 

The episode was just a ridiculous situation.

What happened to the Clara who went back through all of time and played a role in ever one of The Doctor's moments?

She has already lived for as long as he has up to the previous two episodes. So, I don't quite understand is if they were tying up loose ends, why not close Clara's story loop instead of living it open.

 

Sure, she's "Impossible" but only because of The Doctor's predicaments and the story allowing her to do the impossible things.

 

Also, Ashildr probably should have been a bit less composed. Even a person who seems to adapt to loneliness for a while might be not so quick to speak clearly upon meeting with someone after a while. I can see why she went along for the ride in the diner TARDIS. But, I can't see how she could play chess by herself while waiting for her other half to show up and still be that composed.

 

**********************added:

Another thing, in the nuWho, all of the Doctors have become obsessed with their companions. I get how Clara was special but so was Rose and she did keep coming back. And, man, it seemed like Rory and Amy were never going to go away and with River being their child, they really haven't completely gone; there's their legacy.

 

It still doesn't seem necessary to have The Doctor obsess over one companion when he's obsessed over many. Maybe they should have all popped back in and he could have dealt with Donna and his obsession. An intervention of sorts.

Edited by Hobo.PassingThru
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Let me see if I've got this straight: the Doctor/Clara team up is the Hybrid, something so horrible that it trumps the Time War itself, has been the cause of endless, doom-filled prophesies, and the fear of it is why the Doctor stole a TARDIS and ran away from  Gallifrey in the first place? Welp, I can get behind that.

 

You know, I'm okay with Clara Special Snowflaking herself a TARDIS, and roaming though time and space with Ashildr, as long as I NEVER, EVER have to see her again. Bonus points for the Doctor not remembering her. Hey, that means Amy and Rory are the last companions the Doctor remembers. Thanks, Moffat!

 

Next up: a much needed dose of River to wash the rancid taste of THAT PERSON THE DOCTOR DOESN'T REMEMBER (TPTDDR) out of our mouths! Joy to the World!

Technically, River was the last companion The Doctor remembers since he dropped her off before meeting Clara. It could explain why he goes back to her in the Christmas special.

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Why didn't anyone just go into the barn and get the Doctor?  The sequence of emissaries coming out to try to meet him, while funny, was also ludicrous.

 

I think that was just because of the (very literal) line in the sand that he drew with his foot. Basically saying "if any of you cross this line, I can't be held responsible for what I might do." I think is was supposed to show that they are very, very afraid of him and knew they would never be able to force him out by violence, threats, etc.

 

So the Doctor's house is all by itself in the middle of nowhere. And yet tons of cowboy-farmer-types show up within moments of his arrival.  I thought he was a "high born" Gallifreyan, why does his family live way out in the middle of nowhere and not in the capital?

 

Speculation cleared up: "the longest month of my life" was theorized to be on the doctor's timeline after he saw her die. Confirmed now that this is not the case.

 

As much as I loved the new old-style Tardis, with the round things and all the original sounds, etc, I did NOT like the fact that it got stuck as a diner. The whole shtick of the blue box is that the chameleon circuit got stuck, and it wasn't supposed to -- the doctor was surprised, in the very first series ever, he and Susan discussed why it didn't change. It makes his Tardis special -- the others work fine. So to have theirs 'malfunction' in a similar way right off the get-go, that's just unapologetic fan service, that's just like in Enterprise when everything would happen on the same planets we already knew from TOS.

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just expected for Clara to end up as a Dalek

Well, as she was inside a Dalek (and so, a Dalek?) when we first met her, wouldn't Clara be the hybrid? Regardless, she had to go (finally) and yet, her taking the long way around feels like it cheapens the price 12 paid to get to Gallifrey last week. So, feh.

 

In other news, I don't believe it's possible to love Capaldi's Doctor any more than I do. And, of course, I dearly love him not remembering Clara.

 

Edited for spelling and to add that this mind wipe (a good one, imo) may balance out the Donna wipe (a terrible, terrible thing, imo).

Edited by buttersister
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Gallifrey never fails to disappoint. It's all so thinly imagined.

The Time Lords are always so mundane. Each of them thousands of years old, with universe-spanning, God-like power, and yet they seem so petty minded, parochial, and slow-witted.

Another thing I hate is the grandiose Doctor, that adolescent power fantasy figure who has only to gesture or speak to make the universe itself tremble.

I like him so much better as an otherwise ordinary Time Lord, hyper-intelligent firstly because all of his race are so, and secondly because, unlike most Time Lords, he leaves Gallifrey to explore the universe, acquiring knowledge and wisdom as he does so. Special only because he's gone rogue, and not because he's a messiah figure even to other Time Lords.

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As much as I loved the new old-style Tardis, with the round things and all the original sounds, etc, I did NOT like the fact that it got stuck as a diner. The whole shtick of the blue box is that the chameleon circuit got stuck, and it wasn't supposed to -- the doctor was surprised, in the very first series ever, he and Susan discussed why it didn't change. It makes his Tardis special -- the others work fine. So to have theirs 'malfunction' in a similar way right off the get-go, that's just unapologetic fan service, that's just like in Enterprise when everything would happen on the same planets we already knew from TOS.

 

I agree. I loved seeing the roundels and monochromatic scheme. Just a shade or two more and we would have been in black & white! 

 

But the diner just seems so...clunky. Whatever magic makes the blue box "it" in fandom isn't carrying over for me with that damn diner.

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Well, as she was inside a Dalek (and so, a Dalek?) when we first met her, wouldn't Clara be the hybrid? Regardless, she had to go (finally) and yet, her taking the long way around feels like it cheapens the price 12 payed to get to Gallifrey last week. So, feh.

 

In other news, I don't believe it's possible to love Capaldi's Doctor any more than I do. And, of course, I dearly love him not remembering Clara.

Yeah. I can see a switch and bait by her having literally been a hybrid when we first meet her. [For the sake of the story.*] But, it also seems like it cheapens things that she wasn't truly left as a hybrid.

 

I suppose it could be said that Clara/ Souffle Girl not being put back into the Dalek situation makes sense. He allowed her to be saved from that ending. But, there was always a "reason" for why she appeared as a Dalek before officially appearing as Clara. Now I feel that they overlooked that "reason". Unless I missed something between that season premiere and now?

 

[* stories are just memories that have been forgotten, dontcha know? So, let's forget parts of the story and chalk that up to...something]

Edited by Hobo.PassingThru
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5. What good would a memory wipe do in a world of, you know, technology?  The Doctor doesn't have a single photo, video, writing, drawing, clothing, or anything of Clara?  You could wipe my memory of my kids, eg, and then I'd look at my phone and boom.

 

I have a question in a similar vein.  I'll spoil this although I'm not sure if its considered general knowledge about Christmas.

We know River doesn't know who the doctor is at the beginning of the Christmas story.   What can he say?  Is his memory completely wiped of Clara's involvement at Trenzelore?  How does he think he got his extra regenerations?  Will he have to look it up in his diaries?

 

And on the hybrid- I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was someone we haven't met yet.  Did Harold Saxon have any children with Lucy?  Moffatt has stretched reveals like that out before., and we certainly haven't seen the last of Missy.  If the doctor is in fact all time lord (I think this is unsettled), Rover's hybredness came from the Tardis- both parents were human.  A child of the Master and an earth woman would be new.  I considered this earlier this season, but when it didn't look like Missy was going to be i the final I forgot about it.  Now I'm starting to think the storyline may be picked up again later, so who knows- anything could be on the table.

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Am I mistake or, when they are first in the Cloister, did I hear the instrumental opening to Hotel California? 

 

I need to watch the last two episodes again to see if I can catch everything I missed the first time through. 

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Ok, i'm halfway thru episode and havent read any of above comments to avoid spoiling but had to log in just to say:

 

THE DOCTOR GRABBING A FIREARM AND THREATENING GROUP OF UNARMED PEOPLE ONLY TO ACTUALLY SHOOT AN UNARMED MAN ALL TO SAVE CLARA IS WORST MOMENT IN DECADES.

 

I'm sorry that is NOT the Doctor and full on sacrilege to everything the character is about.

 

/rant 

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Wow what a disappointment. After Clara dying then a very interesting pt1 episode, Moffat stays true to awful form and makes this episode nothing more than a Clara Clara Clara lovefest that basically sucked. This was one of the worst Doctor Who episodes I've ever seen made doubly disappointing by how intriguing pt1 was. Ugh.

 

Of all the terrible stuff in this episode perhaps the very worst is notion Doctor spent 5 BILLIONS YEARS or whatever it was pining for Clara every single day and machinating how to save her damn all the rules and his understanding of time.

 

The Worst.

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I wondered how the general recovered from regeneration so quickly though. Are regenerations easier when on Gallifrey?

I had the same thought. It was no worse than if the general had just laid down for a short nap. I figured it proximity to home must make the difference.

 

One good thing about a season running this late . . . we don't have to wait long for the Christmas special. Twelve and River make for a sweet pairing

OMG that special looks like so much fun! Those two are going to be great together! Maybe this is where they fall for each other and eventually get married.

 

This is the first time in a long time I've liked Clara with the Doctor.

I didn't mind her as much as usual either. Probably because she spent most of the episode more clueless than Doctor-like. More like companions of old. It was great. Then it got ruined at the end when she got immortality, and her own TARDIS. Hopefully we'll never see her again.

 

I think that was just because of the (very literal) line in the sand that he drew with his foot.

He said something after drawing that line, but I missed it. Does anyone remember what he said?

 

BTW, now that Clara's gone, I think I'm really going to enjoy Capaldi's Doctor!

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I have DirecTV and they decided to cut off my recording of DOCTOR WHO whenever they damn well felt like it but after reading these comments I'm not sure I'm too upset about it.

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I just rewatched "Deep Breath" (and about four other episodes, but that's the only relevant one), and I thought it was a nice callback that their first episode together ended with The Doctor telling Clara he didn't have any money, and their last kicks off with him telling her the same thing. 

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My heart is broken. Not because the special snowflake is gone, or that she found a way to leave the door open to come back when her career sags, but...

 

I didn't like it.

I hated it.

It put a pall over the whole season.

This ending stunk up the entire season.

This season may go on my "skip it. For heaven's sake SKIP it!!!" List. My last words on the subject?

 

Damn you Moffatt. You Effed up another season.

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I'm sure there was something good about this episode, but I'm not even going to look for it.

 

All I can remember are bad, cringe-inducing moments. 

 

I'm pretty sure they are setting us up for a "The Doctor is a woman". Moffat is trying to hard to be edgy and pointing out how easily the Time Lords can change gender.

 

They seem to be alluding to the Doctor is half human. It came out of a badly written TV movie that I thought we all were willing to forget. If that gets dredged up again, I think someone needs to tell Moffat he's done and drag him off the premises.  

 

I had to sit through that cringe-worthy ending twice because my DVR cut off early. Ashildr and Clara fly off in a Tardis that they apparently know how to operate. After all these years, they are still getting defective Tardis's with broken Chameleon circuits. Apparently no one has informed the manufacturer. 

 

If their Tardis has to look like a diner, I hope Robert Englund shows up. 

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Ok, i'm halfway thru episode and havent read any of above comments to avoid spoiling but had to log in just to say:

 

THE DOCTOR GRABBING A FIREARM AND THREATENING GROUP OF UNARMED PEOPLE ONLY TO ACTUALLY SHOOT AN UNARMED MAN ALL TO SAVE CLARA IS WORST MOMENT IN DECADES.

 

I'm sorry that is NOT the Doctor and full on sacrilege to everything the character is about.

 

/rant 

 

i think that's the whole point.  clara drove the doctor mad, so one of them had to go, either clara go on living so the doctor is put at ease, or the doctor forgets clara or he will go mad and go through extreme lengths to save her (like dying over 4 bllion times, lol)

 

capaldi has really grown into the doctor character......to me, he really has become the doctor.  very good actor.

 

new sonic screwdriver looks badass.  i never wanted one before.....but now i do, lol.

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The good - I enjoyed Peter Capaldi

This was a good send off for Clara

Making it clear that the Doctor chose to spend billions of years in the confession dial because he can be very stubborn with his secrets.

 

The bad - handwaving Gallifrey magically reappearing as "if they tell me they'll act all clever"

Making Rassilon into a villain - that seemed like a lousy ending for 1 of the founders of Time Lord society

The Doctor murdering the General.  Sure he made sure they had regenerations left.  But the Doctor has also said that regenerating feels like death

I don't understand how the Doctor will let this go.  He spent billions of years trying to save Clara and now he'll just let her go because of amnesia.  Last year when he had amnesia (bank robbing episode) he put a lot of effort into getting his memory back.

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Well, not the worst episode I've ever seen, but I still disliked it intensely, as I've disliked this entire season intensely. It might have been an exciting hour of telly, but it wasn't Doctor Who. The character of the Doctor has become unrecognisable, and I'm sorry, the show can tell me how special and amazing Clara is until it's blue in the face, I'm still not buying it. Writing her as the Doctor-lite doesn't make for a strong character and doesn't make her engaging. I'm glad she's gone.

 

And once again death is reversed, because all this writer wants is the shock horror of the death, he doesn't want to allow his pet characters to actually stay dead. So he cheats every time.

 

This episode was such a mess. None of the plot work stands up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny.

 

Let's start with the four and a half billion years that the Doctor has supposedly spent in the confession dial and supposedly remembers. Are they supposed to be a literal four and a half billion years or subjective? The text tries to claim both. The story places Gallifrey four and a half billion years in the future, but that doesn't mean the Doctor had to experience four and a half billion years to get there - this is a show about time travel, that distance could be traversed in the blink of an eye. The internal logic of last week's episode made it very clear that the Doctor should only remember the last loop he completed, any attempt to claim that he remembers them all is just syrupy writing trying to have its cake and eat it too. To each Doctor that stepped out of the transmit it would seem like they only just got there and they would only exist up until the point that they fried themselves to allow the next one to appear. And since it all took place within the confession dial it shouldn't have been anything more than virtual reality anyway, during the transport of the dial. If it actually did take the dial four and a half billion years to reach the desert on Gallifrey - what exactly was it doing all that time? Flying through space the long way? Lying randomly in the desert with no one noticing it? No, this plot point was just a mess - a huge number pulled out of a hat to generate pathos (look! The Doctor loves Clara this much! He's never loved anyone else this much! Sorry, overselling the point still isn't going to make me buy it - the reverse, in fact)

 

What was the point of the Sisterhood of Karn being on Gallifrey? They didn't contribute anything beyond a bit of snark. How did they get there? Why did they go there? How did they even know where Gallifrey was? Is Gallifrey now accessible by other species, seeing as we were told it was pocketed away in it's own corner of the universe? Is that now not the case? What was the point of all that fuss over Gallifrey being lost and hidden if it was just going to be randomly dropped into a story as if it was never lost in the first place? What exactly are the Time Lords supposed to have been doing all this time? Just randomly hanging out looking up prophecies to obsess over? Why did the Doctor have to go right to the end of the universe to talk to 'Me' about the relevance oh him maybe or maybe not being the hybrid?

 

The Hybrid and confession dials - two bits of Time Lord lore that never existed before this season, yet the story attempts to treat them as something that have always existed. Neither fits into anything we've ever know about Gallifrey and Time Lords in the last 51 years of the show. Why is the prophecy about the Hybrid causing such a stir now, exactly? We weren't told. It apparently got everyone into a panic purely because a new seasonal arc was needed, since no other reason was provided for it. And this vague prophecy is somehow considered worse than the Time War everyone just barely lived through? Please.

 

All that grandstanding and bragadoccio and posturing is just embarrassing. It has been for years, but it's getting worse now.

 

I liked Ashildr when we first met her, that creative, caring Viking girl who loved her village so much she was prepared to do anything to save it. Since then, she has morphed into just another Moffat stock female character: sassy and self-important. The first few hundred years of her immortality effected that change in her personality - yet apparently, she has never developed or changed since. I don't buy it. I also don't buy that she'd last till the end of the universe. If Mire technology could do that, surely the end of the universe should also be full of the Mire themselves, sitting out time. Also, she might not be able to die, but she can still be killed. I find it hard to believe she could avoid danger for as long as that. How did she even get to Gallifrey at the end of the universe? How did she create a time bubble to sit in? She's clever, but she's still only human. Where were the Time Lords at this point?

 

They really needed to name the president as Rassilon earlier than they did. I spent most of the early part of the episode trying to figure out who he was and why I was supposed to care - and what the history between him and the Doctor was supposed to be. Gallifrey has had a lot of Lord Presidents, so no, it wasn't obvious that they'd still have the same one after all this time. How much subjective time is supposed to have passed for Gallifrey, anyway? We weren't told.

 

Who was the woman in the shack who recognised the Doctor? We weren't told. She wasn't even given a name.

 

The show is so far up its own backside at this point, there's no balance or perspective of any kind. Moffat seems to be hell bent (see what I did there) on stamping his grubby fingerprints over every aspect of show lore, re-writing the entire history of the show in his own image. And sure, the show has been rebooted and retconned many times, but never to this extent by a single writer in a single era. Nothing is sacred. Steven Moffat has a tendency to do big and supposedly 'cool' stuff for cheap, momentary thrills and then fails on following up with anything of value. There's no internal consistency or logic. Everything happens 'just because'. Very few plot threads introduced actually get resolved. Just idea after idea thrown out that never get picked up or developed again, or ideas that build up some big foreshadowing then at the end are discarded as unimportant. Storytelling basics that Moffat fails at continuously include things such as: Do develop your characters into fully fleshed out, relatable, human beings that can grow and change as people do (not just to fit the mood). Do have a coherent plot of some sort to hold things together, with a start, a middle, and a finish that someone who doesn't know much about it, can sit down and still enjoy. Don't use your characters as plot devices by changing their behaviors and personalities to fit your plots. Do bring your audience on a journey so that when they get to the big emotional moments, they will mean something. Don't backtrack and reset all the work you've done to create those moments and derail all meaning behind them in order to avoid the scary real emotions like loss and grief and pain that do exist, because you then make them meaningless.

 

What happened to Clara's dad and grandmother? Doesn't anyone care that they are never going to find out what happened to her? Or aren't we supposed to remember that they exist? Why did Moffat ever think that a toxic relationship like the one he crafted between the Doctor and Clara would be a good thing? Clara has been so horribly written, from start to finish. Steven Moffat wanted to write a companion who was just like the Doctor, as good as the Doctor, better than the Doctor, but he forgot to also make her a believable, engaging person in her own right.

 

I had to sit through that cringe-worthy ending twice because my DVR cut off early. Ashildr and Clara fly off in a Tardis that they apparently know how to operate. After all these years, they are still getting defective Tardis's with broken Chameleon circuits. Apparently no one has informed the manufacturer.

I agree that it is ludicrous that Ashildr and Clara would be able to just take a TARDIS and be able to operate it, even with the manual to refer to. The Chameleon circuit wasn't broken, though - according to the dialogue, Ashildr just couldn't figure out how to turn it on properly. Or something. They managed to make it work to turn into a diner, though, so once again the internal logic doesn't track. It was just done for the effect. Rose got a human version of the Doctor as her reward for being Davies's favourite. So Moffat trumps that for his own favourite by giving her a TARDIS of her own. Horrible, horrible stuff.

 

Well I'm pretty sure I read somewhere the gun River uses (mostly seen in the Silence episodes back in the 70's) seems to look like the pistol Jack Harkness uses, so it's assumed that she acquired it from him at some point during her adventures.

Or, you know, the manufacturer created more than one gun...

 

So the Doctor's house is all by itself in the middle of nowhere. And yet tons of cowboy-farmer-types show up within moments of his arrival.  I thought he was a "high born" Gallifreyan, why does his family live way out in the middle of nowhere and not in the capital?

 

As much as I loved the new old-style Tardis, with the round things and all the original sounds, etc,

That wasn't the Doctor's house. It was the shack where we saw the supposed child Doctor last season - apparently, a bolt hole for Gallifreyan boys who are at the Academy learning how to become Time Lords. Although since there was no sign of any academy (or any other structure) anywhere near the shack, how they are supposed to get there is anyone's guess. We did encounter that very small boy randomly wandering around in the middle of the desert in the last episode, so maybe Gallifreyans are just really chill about their children wandering into the wilderness whenever they feel like it!

 

Absolutely absurd, though, to have all those people appear out of nowhere, with no sign of where they could have come from. Shobogans are an established part of Gallifreyan lore (people who have rejected high technology culture and gone to live naturally in the wilderness, but this disjointed presentation doesn't explain who they are or why they dress in such rustic style in the slightest, and it needed to - most viewers aren't going to have watched Invasion of Time to get even that much backstory, which these people didn't really fit anyway. Again, it was just done for the visual effect, with little thought put into the actual logic or meaning.

 

Fun fact - although that looked like the First Doctor's console room, the console itself was the wrong colour. The First Doctor's console is actually a very pale green, not white as shown here.

 

Gallifrey never fails to disappoint. It's all so thinly imagined.

The Time Lords are always so mundane. Each of them thousands of years old, with universe-spanning, God-like power, and yet they seem so petty minded, parochial, and slow-witted.

Another thing I hate is the grandiose Doctor, that adolescent power fantasy figure who has only to gesture or speak to make the universe itself tremble.

I like him so much better as an otherwise ordinary Time Lord, hyper-intelligent firstly because all of his race are so, and secondly because, unlike most Time Lords, he leaves Gallifrey to explore the universe, acquiring knowledge and wisdom as he does so. Special only because he's gone rogue, and not because he's a messiah figure even to other Time Lords.

Agreed.

OMG that special looks like so much fun! Those two are going to be great together! Maybe this is where they fall for each other and eventually get married.

We've already seen the Doctor and River fall for each other and get married. It was horribly written, but it still happened.

THE DOCTOR GRABBING A FIREARM AND THREATENING GROUP OF UNARMED PEOPLE ONLY TO ACTUALLY SHOOT AN UNARMED MAN ALL TO SAVE CLARA IS WORST MOMENT IN DECADES.

 

I'm sorry that is NOT the Doctor and full on sacrilege to everything the character is about.

Yes. Moments like that were designed without a thought for what it says about the character, or for the character assassination being carried out - it was simply supposed to sell the importance of Clara. "Look, this is how much he cares about her, he's never done anything like this for anyone else, don't you care about her yet???" Infantile storytelling at its worst.

 

I could continue in this vein indefinitely, I know I've not been coherent enough to address even a fraction of the myriad things wrong with this story and this season.

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My heart is broken. Not because the special snowflake is gone, or that she found a way to leave the door open to come back when her career sags, but...

The whole thing was a sack of shit, but I don't think it's even remotely a setup for her to ever resume being a Companion again. It screams "future guest appearance" sure, but there's zero way this setup allows Clara Oswald to be a Companion again.  It's a setup for a one off return, really--at some point where they want to explode this Hybrid timebomb, no doubt. 

wow....what a troll job by moffat to the clara haters, lol.....luv it....i'm sure her resurrection "broke a billion hearts".....the trolling alone makes this season finale perfect.........

It would be funny if that's true, but I don't know if the timeline of his writing this works out with when the worst of the Clara hatred manifested (earlier this series).

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I'm sure there was something good about this episode, but I'm not even going to look for it.

 

All I can remember are bad, cringe-inducing moments. 

 

I'm pretty sure they are setting us up for a "The Doctor is a woman". Moffat is trying to hard to be edgy and pointing out how easily the Time Lords can change gender.

 

They seem to be alluding to the Doctor is half human. It came out of a badly written TV movie that I thought we all were willing to forget. If that gets dredged up again, I think someone needs to tell Moffat he's done and drag him off the premises.  

They weren't alluding to the half-human thing so much as well... I know the last post I responded to was about Moffat "trolling" something and I debated it, but it kind of fits here. Or maybe "toying" is a better word.  This was Moffat fucking around with a reference to tease people.  And not "tease" as in "make them anticipate something coming" but "tease" in the more traditional "joke about at their expense" way. People moan and groan about the changes in the Doctor and his backstory and this could just be mocking that grousing.

 

The regen we saw man to woman might also just be another case of teasing/mocking people.  Him showing it could really be a middle finger at Net attitudes just as easily as any kind of actual hint.

 

As for how cringe worthy this episode was?  Yup. Putting aside the Clara Special Snowflake stuff (which as I've already said I've never let bother me that much since it's constant for ALL the modern companions), what it said and showed about the Timelords was both painful and laughably done.

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