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Rhondinella

Say Yes To The Dress

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Just catching up. I also loved the bride with the NFL brothers (didn't hurt that one of the brothers was very easy on the eyes). Such a nice family and no famewhores. The stupid twerp who threw the hissy fit about the flower that was easily removed should be grateful she was in the same episode with the odious Persia so she looked better by comparison. Good grief, what a horrible human being. Persia put on the first dress (which was fugly) and was talking about how awful it was and I said, "no, honey, that's your personality manifesting itself." (It was an awful dress, though, and I was hoping she chose it since that is what she deserved, though the one she did pick was no better.) Why a supposedly grown woman would want to be depicted as a spoiled brat princess PITA is absolutely beyond me. Awful awful awful. And yes, the horrific vocal fry was just the icing on the rancid cake.

Edited by jcbrown
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Did anyone else notice Pnina asking the brides, "are you saying yes to MY dress?"

 

Ugh, the ego on that woman.  It's as obvious as the brazilian wax on the brides who wear her dresses.

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I just saw the vow renewal bride who didn't want to show her butt

 

i can't believe that Kristianna put her in the ugliest A-line gown to prove that unless she goes fitted and shows her butt, she's relegated to only ugly, gaudy dresses -- especially since the rest of the episode was otherwise filled with beautiful ballgowns that flew out from the waist and didn't show the butts of those brides. I also couldn't believe that she said that she would refuse to follow the bride's wishes and would only bring form fitting gowns, mermaids, etc.

 

The look on the bride's face said it all. She wasn't happy. But if the plotline was "you're going on 25 years. You're not an old woman. Find your inner sexy mama, shake what your mama gave you" then she bought into it. 

Edited by glow
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Sweet reaction from broadway bride's lace dress (they each brought her flowers so she had a bouquet) BUT i didn't like the dress. The nude fabric underneath was untidy and I could see the seam. Furthermore, it made the body of the dress look sheer -- like Pinina's stripper fairy gowns and their bodices. As the camera was panning down, I kept thinking I was going to she her undergarments or something. I think it would have looked pretty if it were a lavender colour under and around the lace, or a dusty blue or a clear pink. But it was nude and flesh tone.

Edited by glow
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I usually hate the themed episodes when they bring in 'famous' brides, but I'm such a Wicked fangirl that I loved seeing that bride choose her gown. Felt sorry for the bride renewal woman--such a pretty lady but that dress didn't do her a lot of favors.

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I was left puzzled about the wedding dress model bride because the gown she bought was so ... generic. It wasn't offensive but also had nothing to recommend it, if you ask me.

 

I thought the vow renewal bride looked really nice in the dress she choose.

 

Sutton Foster? I agree with your friends about the napkin dress, but it's nice she listened to herself instead of a bunch of couch cat-callers.

 

Have we seen any brides filmed in the hallway outside the dressing room this season? It seems everyone is in the big room now.

 

I have a new favorite person on this show -- the bridesmaid who just wanted dress shopping to be over, already. "PICK SOMETHING so I can go home!"

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I liked Sutton Foster.  She didn't seem diva-ish. 

 

I thought the vow renewal bride looked terrible.  It wasn't the butt sticking out but the stomach.

Yes, I too noticed that they aren't using that interior room anymore.  I also noticed that they have eliminated more of the lame "theme" conference they used to have at the beginning with all the consultants. 

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The dress the wedding dress model chose was same ol' same ol' (or what Lordonia said above).  I can't believe she chose it, and that the consultant also put her into that blush Lazaro that's been around for years.  Seriously, girl is a slender, tall drink of water and these are the dresses they are putting her in?

 

Never heard of Sutton Foster, but she seemed sweet, and she OWNED that "napkin" dress. Thank goodness we didn't have to see Pnina herself.

 

I also liked the Wicked broadway actress, and I liked the dress she chose.

 

Pretty good weekend of SYTTD.  (Last week was horrible with that Chic Chick, and yet another sighting of Pnina. ugh)

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Actually, I loved the satin ball gown that the dress model chose. I know it seemed plain, but something about it struck me. Any other fabric, probably not, but the satin sold it for me with that belt. And was the bodice ruched? I love that look too.

 

I agree about the lace gown with the nude lining. The lace was pretty, and I thought even white underneath would have looked good, but the nude color was distracting.

 

I didn't care for the dress the vow-renewal bride chose, but she and her husband were great. How wonderful to still be so in love after 25 years.

 

The handkerchief dress was prettier with the belt. And I enjoyed the bride herself. She seemed to have a great sense of humor.

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Sutton is a very acclaimed Broadway musical theater actress. She was on the failed TV show Bunheads. She will be on a new TVLand comedy Younger soon.

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Sutton Foster is a huge Broadway musical headliner.  I highly recommend youtubing "sutton foster anything goes".  The one marked "In rehearsal" will wear you out just looking at it.  I really liked the napkin dress (and it's a Pnina - so that's a rare thing for me).  I'm glad she stuck to her own tastes.

 

I felt sorry for that lovely Huxtable family mom and her vow renewal gown.  It didn't work for her, and it's true, brides in that very same episode wore gowns that would have given her a butt hiding silhouette.

 

I'm also surprised that a model who wears wedding gowns for a living would choose one of the most basic gowns in the store.  Maybe it looked more impressive in person.  I thought it was funny that her friends were the type of actresses that producers cast to play unnoticible, until they take off their glasses and become ravishing beauties.  One of those women was a dead ringer for Sister Bernadette from Call The Midwife.

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Pretty good weekend of SYTTD.  (Last week was horrible with that Chic Chick, and yet another sighting of Pnina. ugh)

 

I was SO put off with the Chic Chick who was neither chic nor a chick.  And has she ever looked in a mirror to see how that horrible red lipstick makes her teeth look yellow?

 

And any episode with Pnina gains points right there.  

 

Love Sutton Foster and while I hate Pnina, that dress did look good and was certainly unusual.  Beat the heck out of the boring, seen-on-every-show godawful "mermaid, strapless, with sweetheart neckline, an exploding bottom and sparkly belt" number that we see week after week.  They all alike.  Will that horrible, unflattering look EVER go away?

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The dress that was ultimately chosen by the vow renewal bride reminded me of Michelle Obama's inauguration gown. It too was white with all these flower appliqués. I think she went with it because, in part, of that vibe. ... 

 

I also agree that the napkin dress looked stunning with the belt. Normally, I see belts thrown on dresses and they have nothing to do with anything. But this belt sealed the deal, for real.

 

I agree that the nude lining could also have been white. 

Edited by glow

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Remember the bride with the sweet brothers -- I said that her dress wasn't very good. The bodice was too high, coming down from her chest by a inch, then jutting out in a weird amount of tulle. But because she asked the brothers first and they cried, it became her dress.

 

Well, well, well ... they brought out the dress again and the bride and her family immediately loved it, but picked up on how short the bodice was. They asked that it be lowered by a few inches. I'm sure that altered dress will look divine.

I kind of wonder about brides that buy their dresses, then they continue to watch the show. The consultants do bring out the same dresses over and over. What if they saw their dress and the bride or her crew just ripped it to shreds in critiques. Would it make the bride who's watching second guess?

 

The bride who was getting alterations looked ah-amazing in her dress on her wedding day. I loved her high bun. I loved the hair accessory. The dress fit her to a tee. I just don't get where Ontario, Canada is ... Of course I get it, but that's like saying "and the bridge got married in Florida, USA". I mean, we can be more specific. Did she get married in Ottawa, Toronto, Kingston, Niagara Falls, Oakville? ...

 

The 4 month-out bride had the unfortunate luck of having too much money to spend and therefore the associates went at it, bring expensive dresses --but they were all ugly. Her first dress, the beloved dress, was a mismatch of every thing: lace, bling, ruffles, maybe even feathers. And it didn't get better from there. I'm glad she walked away rather than force herself to take one.

Edited by glow

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The 4 month-out bride had the unfortunate luck of having too much money to spend and therefore the associates went at it, bring expensive dresses --but they were all ugly. Her first dress, the beloved dress, was a mismatch of every thing: lace, bling, ruffles, maybe even feathers. And it didn't get better from there. I'm glad she walked away rather than force herself to take one.

There was only one dress of hers I liked, and it was a plain ruched one. She loved it but wanted more bling. Why the bling? I often feel the most beautiful dresses have nothing sparkly on them. The show will take an elegant dress and ruin it with a sparkly belt, because the bride and/or the entourage want bling. It's like it's this thing you must have, not because you like the way it looks, but because wedding dresses are "supposed to" have it.

 

Not my taste at all. Beading can be lovely, but most of what I see on this show is just flashy.

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Would it make the bride who's watching second guess?

 

With any luck, their weddings are over by that point, but yes. Some brides would second guess if a passing dog looked at them and barked.

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I suffered through the latest episodes, until I finally shut the TV off because I could not stand any more  "I want tight and sexy" brides.

 

Also, Did anyone actually choose anything besides Pnina? 

 

This show has officially jumped the shark.

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Judging from what they sell and how much they charge for it, they'd never be able to sell Vera Wang at a competitive price. Their markup is clearly astronomical.

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Judging from what they sell and how much they charge for it, they'd never be able to sell Vera Wang at a competitive price. Their markup is clearly astronomical.

 

Please explain

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Their dresses seem to me to be seriously overpriced for the materials, workmanship and styling that go into them. Vera Wang is not a cutrate brand. I think to maintain the same profit margin, they'd have to charge far more than anyone else does.

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wonder why they don't carry Vera Wang dresses there?

Vera Wang has her own bridal store in Manhattan, so there's not much incentive to sell her stuff to Kleinfeld's where her gowns would be lost in a sea of tacky Pnina's.  She only does business  high end bridal retailers which is not Kleinfeld's rep.

 

Kleinfeld's has the name recognition, even moreso with the show, to make it such a destination for dress shopping that they can mark their stuff up higher than other stores.  The Manhattan location, as well as the number of attentive salespeople and the amazing Vera and the gang in alterations don't come cheap, either.  Kleinfeld's is well known for having some of the highest retail prices around.

 

Back in the days of TWOP, several posters who had shopped Kleinfeld's said they tried on gowns there that they ultimately purchased elsewhere for a fraction of what Kleinfeld's was asking for the same dress.  That's one of the reasons they don't allow pictures to be taken of the dresses during an appointment.  As it is, on the show, fairly often, we see a bride pick a dress and then waver when it's time to say 'yes'.  Instead, she says she will come back the next day or whatever and then we get a voiceover telling us she never returned.  I suspect that many of those women went to Kleinfeld's for the attention and service (and the TV show) and always knew they would buy their dream dress elsewhere at a lower price once they found one they wanted.

Edited by doodlebug

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I suffered through the latest episodes, until I finally shut the TV off because I could not stand any more  "I want tight and sexy" brides.

 

Also, Did anyone actually choose anything besides Pnina? 

 

This show has officially jumped the shark.

I'm watching the most recent episodes and it has become ridiculous how 95% of the dresses they show are Pnina Tornai. Does she own Kleinfeld's or something? Or are the SYTTD customers only shown Pnina dresses?

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I'm watching the most recent episodes and it has become ridiculous how 95% of the dresses they show are Pnina Tornai. Does she own Kleinfeld's or something

Well, her stuff is 'exclusively' found at Kleinfeld's, so they probably do maximum markup on it and have a greater profit margin on her stuff than on the other merchandise, which can be found at other, less expensive, bridal stores.  Between her many, many appearances on the show and the seemingly unending supply of engaged women who want to get married in stripper fairy finery, Kleinfeld's has probably found their niche and are exploiting it to the max.  Before I started watching this show, I had no idea that there were women who wanted to be 'sexy' in their wedding dress or who thought that showing max cleavage or butt crack or midriff was a fashionable option.

 

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I don't think profit margins are the reason Vera isn't available at K's.  Especially since she now designs a line for David's Bridal.  I'm thinking Pnina doesn't want the competition from a well know, high end designer.  And most definitely NOT from one who makes a more beautiful, less trashy looking dress that she does!

Edited by Shugardrawers

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The focus on Pnina in the first episode really was overkill. The girl who got the "Poughkeepsie dress" was with a different designer, and they didn't even say the name. I kept thinking she must have paid far more for it in Manhattan than she would have at home.

 

I still like Randy on this show, but it's tiresome seeing the same few dresses by one main designer out of their huge inventory. I suppose it's all about money, but it's boring. I already fast-forward through the endless repetition. It's fine to a point, catching up people who come in late, but recapping and talking heads feel like most of the show anymore. I'd rather see more dresses.

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Just saw the episode where the injured soldier bride met Seth Meyers. For the second time. If you were after drama, or a big surprise, why pick someone she had already met? Meeting a celebrity, your contact is polite and limited. It has nothing to do with your wedding. It'd be much more effective to cut the price of the dress to thank her for her service. 

 

I also saw the "Pageant Brides" episode with the Rodeo Queen who had to wear her cowboy hat in her TH, so you know she's in the rodeo.The "pageant gowns" she wore looked like tacky separates. And she asked for something "fit and flare, beaded all the way down, with a train," which is everything eye roll-worthy in a dress, to me. Little teeny appliques dotting the whole mess, pooling at your feet like a Christmas Tree skirt.

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The focus on Pnina in the first episode really was overkill. The girl who got the "Poughkeepsie dress" was with a different designer, and they didn't even say the name. I kept thinking she must have paid far more for it in Manhattan than she would have at home.

 

I still like Randy on this show, but it's tiresome seeing the same few dresses by one main designer out of their huge inventory. I suppose it's all about money, but it's boring. I already fast-forward through the endless repetition. It's fine to a point, catching up people who come in late, but recapping and talking heads feel like most of the show anymore. I'd rather see more dresses.

They do this on House Hunters and Love It or List It, too, and it drives me crazy. Look, these are shows you can start watching at any point and basically get the drift. We're not talking major dramas here; there's no compelling narrative. The post-commercial recaps are a waste of time. Between that and the "still to come" moments, there is very little time spent on the basic subject matter of the show. SYTTD even gives things away with their little "upcoming" spots. Just show more dresses, by more designers. I don't tune in for the family drama, trust me.

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I don't understand the brides with the smaller budgets who fly cross-country for this store, especially if they come from larger cities like Miami, L.A. You have a $3000 budget for a wedding dress but you have just spent $2000 on airfare and hotel to get to NYC. I can't believe you cannot find a nice wedding dress for $5000 in L.A. or Miami. 

 

Anchorage bride flew in because there wasn't a good selection in Alaska. I get it, but she could probably found something in Vancouver/Seattle for a lot less travel distance.    

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Yes, most of the brides can probably find a dress closer to home, but then they wouldn't get to be on TV for about 12 minutes total.  I guess they figure 12 minutes of fame, if you can call it that, is worth the cost of a plane ticket. Don't forget all of the family members and friends have to fork over $$ to travel there with them too.  The only way I would do something like that is if someone else was picking up the expenses for the flight and hotel stay and meals. 

Edited by laredhead

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I loved the dress bride Diana (?) chose in tonight's ep. She was debating between boho or structured. The dress she chose suited her figure so well.

Also loved the dress that bride with conservative dad chose. Loved the bodice and the sheer sleeves. Couldn't figure out if they were going to raise the sheer part that went down to her bum in the back, though!

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The only way I would do something like that is if someone else was picking up the expenses for the flight and hotel stay and meals.

 

Does the show pay for everyone's transportation? I always thought so but not sure where I heard that.

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I loved the dress bride Diana (?) chose in tonight's ep. She was debating between boho or structured. The dress she chose suited her figure so well.

Do you mean the kind of column dress with several different tiers of fringe?  The sort of 1920s-looking dress?  If that's the one, I love it, too.  It's a Claire Pettibone, and we've seen several brides try it on over the past couple of years, but I think this is the first one who ended up buying it.

Also loved the dress that bride with conservative dad chose. Loved the bodice and the sheer sleeves. Couldn't figure out if they were going to raise the sheer part that went down to her bum in the back, though!

Loved that one as well, but that segment played out very oddly, I thought.  They were going to demonstrate to the father that they could make the dress more acceptable to him by showing less cleavage front and back, and then all they did was lengthen the sleeves!  And that changed everything for him.  Uh, okay.  But thank God for Kate Middleton and the reappearance of sleeves.

 

I also found the bride who had a moral crisis about making her father spend so much money on a single dress pretty interesting.  I'm not sure I believe that that's what her tears were really about, but if they were, good for her.  We almost never see someone step back and say, "Wait a minute, this is insane."  All we ever see is the exact opposite.

 

The bride with four sons marrying the man with four sons?  That groom was a very handsome man.

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Yikes, I used to LOVE this show and barely watched SYTTD Atlanta since I couldn't stand the goofy interchanges between Lori and Monty, but now I've done a 180.  Whenever a bride comes into Kleinfelds and says I have a budget of $5k or up, they immediately pull out the hideous Pnina gowns.  SYTTD Atlanta shows brides many different designers regardless of budget, and they seem to have cut back on the Lori/Monty cornball shtick.  I am so sick of Pnina and Mark Zunino gowns!   Aren't there any other big name designers who allow their bridal gowns to be sold at Kleinfelds?  I personally love Carolina Herrera and Oscar de la Renta's bridal gowns.  I don't think Kleinfelds carries their gowns or Monique Lullihier another designer who's gowns I really love.  I see more of a variety of bridal gown designers work on Something Borrowed when they shop for something new than I do on SYTTD and definitely see more variety of designer's work on I Found the Gown.  Plus, as much as I enjoy Randy, I'm really getting tired of him being involved with every bride.  Remember back when Diane, Sarah, Camille, Jessica, and the one (oh shoot, I've forgotten her name Audrey maybe?) got to do more than go get Randy for advice?  I'm about to stop watching this one and stick with SYTTD Atlanta, I Found the Gown, and Something Borrowed.  This makes me sad :(

Edited by lark37
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But thank God for Kate Middleton and the reappearance of sleeves.

 

Amen, sister.  And if we could just get rid of the hideous exploding bottoms, I would be a happy viewer.  

 

I loved the Claire Pettibone gown. It's totally unique and a stand out.  Every one od those strapless, mermaid, sweetheart neck, exploding bottom numbers are virtually interchangeable despite the number of nimrods that insist on buying "something one-of-a-kind, classic, and unique".  Just watch SYTTD for two weeks and you'll see that every bride looks like in that horrible shape.  MAKE IT GO AWAY!!

 

And if you want classic, think Grace Kelly or Kate MIddleton.  This silhouette will be laughable in a couple more years.

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Wow, the girl who cried had the most annoying voice!   Talk about Valley Speak/vocal fry.  I thought she sounded like a cat meowing.  .But then I felt sympathetic toward her when she cried over the price. 

 

I couldn't believe that mother kvelling over yet another Pnina dress with trashy sheer bodice.  I thought at least they might go for the fill-in fabric.  That dress didn't look as bad as some other Pninas, and might have been okay with a fill in. 

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The exploding bottom dresses remind me of my first Barbie.

 

Then there is hope that it will go away and stay away for the next 50 years or so.

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I think on the episodes I've seen recently and otherwise there's some Claire Pettibone and Lazaro. Lazaro is a big name on this show. But of course Pnina is the biggest. I think part of the thought process of the producers (totally guessing of course) is that people want to see unique or at least not what they have in real life. Based on my Facebook feed (and the weddings I've been to), the majority of the brides don't dress like the people on this show, they dress generally more conservatively and less on-trend than these brides. It's escapist fantasy, but the dresses do seem uglier recently.

You also have Twilight to thank for sleeves.

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The Pnina napkin dress made another appearance, but it didn't look as good as it looked on Sutton Foster . . .

 

Yes, I always think of that same Barbie dress too!  Late fifties/early sixties.  I didn't have that dress, but a friend of mine did. I craved it.   My mother wouldn't buy those expensive Barbie dresses, and I was lucky I even had the basic doll.  I had the nurse uniform, fer gosh sakes!

 

I had to sew or knit my own Barbie dresses using old scraps.  

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Just getting caught up and I have to say something that I have been noticing more and more. The bride who wore the Pnina ball gown with the shit ton of bling that we have seen dozens of times. They showed her fitting and then her Macedonian wedding clips. Anyway, my issue is that no one these days seems to know how to stand straight up with their shoulders back. Every time they showed her, she was slumped forward with rounded shoulders. She was such a pretty girl, but had horrible posture. I see so many of the brides that stand the same way...drives me crazy.

I liked, but didn't love the Claire Pettibone dress. From what the bride said, if I remember correctly, said they were having a garden party wedding...but then they showed her ceremony was in a horrid white, sterile room. It looked really weird to me. They did look like they had an outdoor reception, but she looked perfect for a garden ceremony so seeing the bright white room threw me in a bad direction.

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Do you mean the kind of column dress with several different tiers of fringe?  The sort of 1920s-looking dress?  If that's the one, I love it, too.  It's a Claire Pettibone, and we've seen several brides try it on over the past couple of years, but I think this is the first one who ended up buying it.

Loved that one as well, but that segment played out very oddly, I thought.  They were going to demonstrate to the father that they could make the dress more acceptable to him by showing less cleavage front and back, and then all they did was lengthen the sleeves!  And that changed everything for him.  Uh, okay.  But thank God for Kate Middleton and the reappearance of sleeves.

 

I also found the bride who had a moral crisis about making her father spend so much money on a single dress pretty interesting.  I'm not sure I believe that that's what her tears were really about, but if they were, good for her.  We almost never see someone step back and say, "Wait a minute, this is insane."  All we ever see is the exact opposite.

 

The bride with four sons marrying the man with four sons?  That groom was a very handsome man.

Seeing the girl who couldn't pick a dress after trying 50 of them cry about the price does suggest that the cost of the dress has been holding her back. I hope she found a budget she was comfortable with and then a dress in that price range. The style of the last dress was really pretty on her. 

 

I wish more of the brides were like Cy. So little drama. Seems rare these days to have a bride who knows what she wants, a consultant who finds it for her, and non-annoying friends and family. 

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I wish more of the brides were like Cy. So little drama. Seems rare these days to have a bride who knows what she wants, a consultant who finds it for her, and non-annoying friends and family. 

I loved Cy and her guy, but the top of that dress looked like a breastplate from a suit of armor ...there was something odd about how high up it went. She spent nearly $8000. (I think) and that's what they came up with? I didn't catch it in the wedding shot. I was too busy looking at the 8 (!!!!) adorable boys, and thinking how that $8000. could sure help with some college tuition. Or just feeding them all.

 

Sometimes it seems like the consultants spend a certain amount of time on a bride, and then when she goes over the allotted time or becomes indecisive, they bring out the sparkly belt and the veil and Randy to convince her that that she's gotta "Say Yes to the Dress".

 

I think crying bride was there for her 15 minutes of fame, and had no intention of ever buying a dress at Kleinfeld's. That was just her way out when the pressure (see above^^) was turned on.

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I just watched an old episode on repeat with a pageant dad he was just creepy telling his daughter what underwear to wear? TMI what people do for 15 mins of fame.

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OK, I'm done.  

 

How many times can they say the same platitude in the TH segments ("No matter what anybody says, it's all about what the BRIDE wants.")?  

 

How many times do we have to hear the same stupid speech in the consultants' meeting (So-and-so, your bride wants something unique for her quirky personality.")?  Quirky always translates to tasteless or crass.

 

How many times do we have to see the same Snotty/Opinionated/I-Want-My-5-Minutes-of-Fame friend or relative give what they think is a clever remark and then glance at the camera to make sure they got it on film?

 

How many times do we need to see Randy save the day and win over the curmudgeon dissenter by adding a stupid sparkly belt and pinning a yard of fabric on the bride's head which always magically melts the most stubborn heart?

 

How many tacky Pnina's must we be subjected to all of which look identical (with the exception of that monstrosity with the 60 yards of fabric on the back which would have required the bride to stand up to eat because there is no way to stuff that mess into a chair) and have some brainwashed bride gush how "classic" and "original" the dress looks.  NOTHING Pnina makes can remotely be considered classic OR original.  Look in a mirror you immature twits.  THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME.

 

How much longer will we have to hear "sweetheart neck", "fit and flare", "mermaid", and "strapless".  I hope I live to see something truly classic and different but this horrible exploding bottom trend just doesn't seem to go away.

 

Done ranting.  Done watching. They may as well just recycle most of what is said from week to week because it never changes anyway.

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I don't get the sparkly belt at all. Even if you're willing to cut up the line of your dress and draw attention away from your face, there have been centuries of cool paste jewelry, and there are really gorgeous prismatic rhinstones if you're determined to blind your guests, but they go for the same glass jewel rosettes from someone's grandma's garage sale on a ribbon every time. It just always looks to me like someone set a nine year old loose in AC Moore with a couple of twenties to accessorize their princess dress for halloween.

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It just always looks to me like someone set a nine year old loose in AC Moore with a couple of twenties to accessorize their princess dress for halloween.

 

And I wager those suckers cost a bundle.  It just slays me when they declare a "price point", get a dress right at that amount and never factor in the high cost of alterations, the veil (like that one from Pnina that cost $7000), or any other stupid doodads they add.

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