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S12.E05: Guess Who's Coming To Dinner

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We haven't seen anything to show Stephanie "operating circles" around Jo or any proof that's as superior as she thinks she is. The whole rant was so obnoxious and I can only assume it had more to do with Stephanie's own insecurities then it did what Jo actually said. I didn't even think there was anything offensive about it. She tried to bond with her over shared difficult childhoods. She apologized repeatedly for what she did and was shown as genuinely sorry and upset that may have lost her friend.

 

The only jealousy I've seen with Jo and Stephanie is Jo's frustration over how everyone prefers Stephanie to her. I think this stems from her own insecurities that Alex's friends don't like her and judging from their treatment of her tonight I can see where the insecurity is coming from. They're dismissive of her, bossy and there's just an obvious isolation between them and her. Even when she makes the effort they throw it back at her. I don't think she helps herself by being stroppy and letting that chip on her shoulder show but I do get why she feels so defensive. She didn't want to go to the dinner party but Alex asked her too. He then ignored her for the entire night for Meredith who is actively rude to her (in front of Alex). I get Meredith needed Alex and I think for the most part Jo has supported that friendship despite how terribly Meredith treats her but I think with Stephanie fighting with her and her obvious discomfort and loneliness at the party I can see why she'd be annoyed at him. Also, maybe she like many the viewer can see how one sided the friendship is and that if the tables were turned Meredith probably wouldn't be half as devoted to Alex as he is to her.

Edited by Chas411
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I personally don't feel bad for Penny. She was dating Callie and knew what hospital she worked at, and she agreed to go to a dinner with Callie and her colleagues? Yes, it's a larger hospital, but someone in that group was bound to know Derek. I don't see why she'd even put herself in that situation without at least mentioning in to Callie first. Not to mention, you were going to go work at the hospital? Where you were the doctor when one of their star attendings died? I don't get that at all. My sympathy kind of ran out.

100% agreed. In fact I found her a bit manipulative and kinda creepy at the end.  She had to have some thought that it was possible Callie wouldn't want to date her if she knew she was one of Derek's doctors. I can't think of a single acceptable reason for her to remain silent after they have been together, she was coming to work there and begin socializing with Callie's friends.

 

Near the end of the episode Callie was speaking with Penny outside. Callie goes back in the house, upstairs to talk to Meredith then Callie was outside asking people if they saw Penny. Jo & Stephanie were by the front door and Stephanie didn't see her. Jackson was still in the house and he didn't see her. Yet there is Penny popping up after everyone left. It was just weird that no one knew she was even in the house. Who would go back in the house after everything that happened?

 

Alex is my favorite character and I like Jolex and Jo but I'm fine with a breakup at this point. Jo needs to stand up for herself and stop being treated like she doesn't matter. Alex goes from saying he wanted to marry her to ignoring her every time Meredith takes a breath. He's doing to Jo what Meredith used to do to Derek - putting the friends above his partner. He also says nothing as they all treat her like garbage.

 

More drunk Arizona please. Maybe she and Jo can go drinking together.

 

edited: Agree with everything you've said Chas411.

Edited by maasa

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Callie, not listening, and making assumptions about the other person in her relationship while they just give in and follow her like a kicked puppy?

That's never happened before. *coughs*

Yes, let's blame Callie when Penny was giving lame excuses like it's too soon to meet the friends. Not the actual reason she wanted to leave.

Yes, let's blame Callie for Penny putting herself in that position by not telling Callie about her history with Derek's case, because, what did she say, it's a big hospital.

If anybody was out of bounds, it was Penny for placing Callie in an untenable position between her friends and her new girlfriend.

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Alex is my favorite character and I like Jolex and Jo but I'm fine with a breakup at this point. Jo needs to stand up for herself and stop being treated like she doesn't matter. Alex goes from saying he wanted to marry her to ignoring her every time Meredith takes a breath. He's doing to Jo what Meredith used to do to Derek - putting the friends above his partner. He also says nothing as they all treat her like garbage.

 

More drunk Arizona please. Maybe she and Jo can go drinking together.

Agreed. I don't want them to break up but I'd love for something to happen between them that actually makes Alex step up to the mark.

 

And yes, I'd love Arizona/Jo. I'd love Jo anybody. I'd like one of the attendings to mentor her or at the very least acknowledge that she's not the worthless character the show seems intent on turning her into.

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Near the end of the episode Callie was speaking with Penny outside. Callie goes back in the house, upstairs to talk to Meredith then Callie was outside asking people if they saw Penny. Jo & Stephanie were by the front door and Stephanie didn't see her. Jackson was still in the house and he didn't see her. Yet there is Penny popping up after everyone left. It was just weird that no one knew she was even in the house. Who would go back in the house after everything that happened?

 

Maybe she really needed to pee or had forgotten something inside? The woman clearly looked uncomfortable throughout the night and intended to leave several times, so I really don't think she had any ulterior motives. Yeah, it's weird she apparently didn't even know the name of the person hosting the party she was going to, but nothing makes much sense about this show.

 

Drunk Arizona is funny, but it's clear she's not over Callie yet. They need to give it a rest, it's going to become creepy or at least pathetic. They've been separated for a long time now. 

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Meredith wakes up after a night out drinking ready to start her new job at SGH. The whole show was a drunken dream, lol.

You can laugh, but they actually did that in an spanish tv show. I don't know how many season (maybe 5 or 6) and the show ended with the first scene and the guy waking up from a LOOOONG dream. I didn't even watch the show, but I felt cheated.

 

I need more drunk Robbins, but without the inappropiatte comments about Perfect Penny. And April being mature.

I've never been a fan of Meredith/Ellen but I loved how she was trying to act "normal" and hiding the pictures and everything... good job there Ellen!

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Actually, the more I think of it, the more improbable this whole set-up seems. Callie and Penny are getting serious with each other, it's clearly not some random hook-up. So, what are they talking about if at no point do the names of Callie's closest friends come up nor there's apparently any mention of her working conditions and such. It seemed like Penny was completely oblivious about everyone she was going to meet at the party (apart from Arizona), it just seems so unlikely Callie would never mention any of them to her. 

 

Otherwise, Penny would have to be a complete sociopath to accept going there with Callie knowing she'd run into the wife, sister and basically all the close friends of a person she "killed" and we just haven't seen anything to assume she's like that. 

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Well, the way Callie was carrying on like a love struck 13 year old in previous episodes makes it pretty clear all she and Penny discussed was surface stuff where they just agreed with each other in a happy bubble.

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It's having the opposite effect on me.  I HATED Jo, simply hated her until this season. I never got past that horribly truncated and badly handled mess of a storyline with the intern that she beat up.

 

Now that she's been chosen as the loser punching bag, I feel for her and am liking her more than the ones punching her.

 

Heh.  I feel the same way except I don't feel sorry for her.  Out of the gate when all the new interns were introduced, Jo was earmarked as New!Izzie.  She was given the most character development, she immediately developed a rapport and then a relationship with Alex.   She was immediately culled from the herd.  It was like watching the audition rounds of So You Think You Can Dance.  You can always tell who they like because that is the one they give the heart-wrenching back story to.  While all the rest were almost indistinguishable and you knew they were canon fodder.  And guess what, with the exception of Stephanie, they are all gone. 

 

And yeah the fucked-upness of what went down with that intern put a really bad taste in my mouth both about her and how they were writing her to be received by the audience. 

 

The Stephanie telling Jo she was better than her felt almost out of place until you place it in context with what she said earlier and even what happened last week.  Last week I felt there was an argument that the confrontation with Weber had a leetle tendril of a racial undertone.  Where the black characters might feel it in the room, but the white characters were blind to it.  But I put it aside because it wasn't really overt and felt maybe I was projecting.  But this week when Stephanie brought up again "they barely know who you are and yet they automatically believe you over me." made me feel that leetle  tendril of racial undertone again.   So of course when Jo mentions Stephanie's illness in relation to her accomplishments and drive that probably set off a red-flag in Steph's head.  Because black students can be so very aware that they have to to work twice as hard to be considered half as good.  And reasons are given as to why are excel -- except the obvious ones like smarts.  And like it or not, Shonda can be subtle when it comes to pointing out microaggressions.  I remember in an ep of Scandal Liv and Abby walked into a room to meet a new client, and the woman walked over to Abby and said 'You must be Olivia Pope.'  Nothing else was made of it, Liv just corrected her and introduced herself and that was it.  But as a viewer everyone got what just happened there. So I think there may be a little of that going on.

 

Overall I LOVED the episode.  it was so tense and well done and yes, the absence of music really allowed the acting to work.

 

My husband who has never seen an ep of Grey's Anatomy wandered through the living room and marvelled that Danny Bonaduce was still working.  He was talking about Owen.  I think I laughed for like 2 minutes.

 

Still like Maggie with Hot Intern.  They have a really rather neurotic thing going on (mostly on her end) but it works for me.

 

Arizona  was a hoot! and this is the most I liked April in ages.

Edited by DearEvette
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Yes, let's blame Callie when Penny was giving lame excuses like it's too soon to meet the friends. Not the actual reason she wanted to leave.

Yes, let's blame Callie for Penny putting herself in that position by not telling Callie about her history with Derek's case, because, what did she say, it's a big hospital.

If anybody was out of bounds, it was Penny for placing Callie in an untenable position between her friends and her new girlfriend.

Yeah no way St Calliope can ever do anything wrong. She is never to blame for anything. The comepletey self centered bitch. There so much to blame her for..

Edited by GreysFan89
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He then ignored her for the entire night for Meredith who is actively rude to her (in front of Alex

I too get that he needed to be their for Meredith, but this is part of the problem as to why I don't think the coupling is that great. Sometimes I'm like just how much is he into Jo? Women want their significant other to put them first and vice versa and Jo is just not feeling that and I don't blame her. 

 

Derek appeared like he put Meredith first, as a matter a fact, it was her connection to Cristina that annoyed him because he felt like he was second. The feelings of neglect that come with both situations don't seem much different to me. 

 

Alex loved  Izzie so damn much that he forgot her once saying to him that he wasn't even half the man that Denny was on a good day. Yet years later Izzie was still all he wanted. Shit, doesn't Jo deserve that same kind of intense love?  I mean why not and as a viewer who doesn't even ship this couple, I'm not seeing that intensity. 

 

I just figured out what's really missing and why I can't even support this coupling much less get on board to shipping it.

Edited by represent

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The entire episode set my teeth on edge. Except for April taking charge in the kitchen, and drunk Arizona, every single character was annoying.

 

The unlikelihood of any of that dinner party ever unfolding in real life the way it did is about .01 percent. Professional people are extremely incestuous in their own little groups. Dr. Penny, a resident at a suburban hospital, would have known even if Callie didn't tell her that Callie was on the board of a large urban teaching hospital. She would have known who Derek was and where he worked, and that Meredith and Derek also were on the board of the hospital. Penny would have investigated thoroughly any hospital she'd applied to for residency. Callie would have known where Penny worked, even if Penny didn't tell her, and that Derek died there.

 

Everyone at the table turning on Penny also was ridiculous, considering every single one of them has been in her shoes, and considering that Meredith knew the series of events that led to Derek's death. Penny wasn't the bad guy; she was just an easy target. 

 

And then there's Penny cowering under glares, stares, and gasps - guess she's being set up to be the next resident Eeyore. But isn't that Jo's role?

 

Oh, and Stephanie and Jo - just fire them, too, already! Both are annoying to the nth degree. 

 

 

I wish they would take a second to explain some of this trivial stuff!  There was no crib in Meredith's room so the baby obviously doesn't sleep in there,  Where do these kids live??  Sure there are toys all over the house but other than that there is no trace of them, be a little realistic here!  Maybe with all the renovations of this house they added a basement where they keep all the kids, including Sofia and Tuck (kidding).

 

That house really got a makeover, didn't it? The entire first floor was enlarged somehow - wider hallway, bigger rooms, new front door. Ah, the magic of TV! Wish I could do that with my house. But the house probably needed some help after Bachelor Alex lived there for so long.  

 

Near the end of the episode Callie was speaking with Penny outside. Callie goes back in the house, upstairs to talk to Meredith then Callie was outside asking people if they saw Penny. Jo & Stephanie were by the front door and Stephanie didn't see her. Jackson was still in the house and he didn't see her. Yet there is Penny popping up after everyone left. It was just weird that no one knew she was even in the house. Who would go back in the house after everything that happened?

I thought maybe she'd gone into the bathroom to throw up after so much stress, but nobody gave her a chance to eat her dinner.

Edited by Gladrags
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The entire episode set my teeth on edge. Except for April taking charge in the kitchen, and drunk Arizona, every single character was annoying.

 

The unlikelihood of any of that dinner party ever unfolding in real life the way it did is about .01 percent. Professional people are extremely incestuous in their own little groups. Dr. Penny, a resident at a suburban hospital, would have known even if Callie didn't tell her that Callie was on the board of a large urban teaching hospital. She would have known who Derek was and where he worked, and that Meredith and Derek also were on the board of the hospital. Penny would have investigated thoroughly any hospital she'd applied to for residency. Callie would have known where Penny worked, even if Penny didn't tell her, and that Derek died there.

 

You'd think Penny would have looked at Callie's Facebook page or something. 

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I really liked this ep but I still find the direction a bit uneven & the writing a little clunky. It's got to be difficult for the writers and actors to stay fresh after 12 years, but watching the Lifetime reruns constantly makes me miss the timing and chemistry of Yang, Alex, Izzie, Mer and George. I'd also like to see James Pickens more often (and not just getting bossed around by Jackson's mother) and for Bailey to show more of her original fire. Also, I don't exactly get brain surgeon vibes from the actor who plays Amelia - she just appears coked up out of her mind in every scene.

 

Glad it wasn't just me who thought the Mer/Alex seclusion scene with Jo feeling ignored was very pointed. I liked Alex & Jo together during the wedding barn scene when Alex said they'd get married and the two of them would be enough and if they had kids they would make sure they were happy but then the writers acted like that scene never existed and the actress who plays Jo never learned to cry properly so I started rooting for Mer & Alex well before Derek's death. 

 

Speaking of, I remember Penny's treatment of Derek completely different. I thought she was fighting for the CT and for the senior staff to listen to her but they blew her off due to rank. And then the neurosurgeon just took his time to get to the hospital because he wanted to finish his dinner. At least towards the end of the meal all the regulars came around to remembering all the patients they killed (like when Alex screwed up dosage directions so Metatron started drinking from the toilet).

 

Anyway, I liked Joe's take on the episode, I think Robbins should get drunk at least once every episode, and Cross is essentially Brian Krakow so he can totally stick around and take April to foreign movies.

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On the subject of 'where are the kids?', I'm guessing that they are all at Derek and Mer's dream house on the hill with the nanny, right?  I like the way her childhood home has been renovated and decorated, but I still love the 'glass house' on the hill the best.  It was beautiful.  (Did she sell it?  I don't remember.)

 

Have there been many episodes where there was no actual medical stuff addressed?  There was only Maggie and her UTI  and the brief scene with Callie and Owen. No surgeries, no patients, no nothing--just the dinner party where no one had dinner.

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On the subject of 'where are the kids?', I'm guessing that they are all at Derek and Mer's dream house on the hill with the nanny, right?  I like the way her childhood home has been renovated and decorated, but I still love the 'glass house' on the hill the best.  It was beautiful.  (Did she sell it?  I don't remember.)

Meredith sold the dream house. Unfortunately :(

I loved that house too.

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Speaking of, I remember Penny's treatment of Derek completely different. I thought she was fighting for the CT and for the senior staff to listen to her but they blew her off due to rank. And then the neurosurgeon just took his time to get to the hospital because he wanted to finish his dinner.

This is the way I remember it as well. For all that I find the situation completely unrealistic and frustrating on all fronts (that she should have known more, that she didn't tell Callie, that no one would let her leave, etc. etc.), it did seem unfair to paint her as the one who killed Derek. 

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This is the way I remember it as well. For all that I find the situation completely unrealistic and frustrating on all fronts (that she should have known more, that she didn't tell Callie, that no one would let her leave, etc. etc.), it did seem unfair to paint her as the one who killed Derek. 

I've watched that episode a lot of times and this is how it happened for sure. BUT we have to remember that Meredith doesn't know that and because Penny was the one to apologize to Meredith like that it made it look like she was the one to blame in Meredith's point of view. We know a lot of stuff as viewers, but Meredith and Amelia don't.

Penny even told Meredith: "He saved all those people and it was my job to save him, and I failed. And now he's gonna die because I was not a good enough doctor to keep him alive.", so the way Meredith sees it Penny was kind of admitting her fault, I guess. Of course she's not a killer and I'm pretty sure Meredith understands that, but she was angry and when you're angry you usually want to blame someone and because Penny did admit her incompetence Meredith felt like she was the one to blame.

That whole hospital was a mess, I'm glad it got closed down lol

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In all the TV shows that I watch, I don't think I've ever seen a more immature, emotionally stunted group than these people.  It's just embarrassing now.  I don't think any of them react to any situations like normal, rational people.  It's not even entertainment anymore.  This may just have been my last episode of Grey's.

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Canada, I was writing my review when I saw that someone else had just submitted one. So I stopped and copied what I'd written.I so agree with you. This is what I was writing:

 

I'm stunned. This was the worst episode of Grey's Anatomy I've ever seen and it has opened my eyes to the fact that this show is written by twenty-somethings who, when they're hard up for good ideas, decide to reverse-engineer grief and drama and put together this totally twisted, asinine story. We have a former resident as the only outside guest at a party of surgeons where the hosts don't even know how to cook. She "killed" Derek yet she's still a doctor in decent enough standing to be interviewed for jobs in a hospital that is local to the scene of her crime. These supposedly educated and mature adults are actually pointing fingers at her because as a resident, not one of them every made a mistake single handedly, let alone as part of a group. The sister of the victim demands to know her brother's last words. His last words? Did she expect that he would utter something profound in his last dying breath? What is she, six years old? Isn't she supposed to be a doctor?

 

I missed the hospital. These people are interesting doctors, boring human beings. Maybe it's just time to stick a fork in it.

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Yeah no way St Calliope can ever do anything wrong. She is never to blame for anything. The comepletey self centered bitch. There so much to blame her for..

What blame?

Maybe explain what she did wrong.

I never said she was a saint, but she thought Penny was nervous based on her own words.

Penny never told her anything. She was just as caught off guard.

How was she selfish in this episode?

Well, the way Callie was carrying on like a love struck 13 year old in previous episodes makes it pretty clear all she and Penny discussed was surface stuff where they just agreed with each other in a happy bubble.

All we know is what they told us.

Penny never told Callie. Simple as that.

One conversation and Callie never would have brought her to the party.

Penny was the architect of this mess.

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The time for Penny to have told Callie her connection to Derek was when Penny told Callie that she was transferring to Grey Sloan. Because clearly Callie knew that before the dinner party as she said, "I thought we were going to wait to tell everyone", and obviously Penny knew that Derek worked there ahead of time when Callie asked her about it outside and her lame excuse was, "It's a big hospital". 

 

How is any of that okay? And how is any of that Callie's fault? She didn't know that Penny knew Derek, but Penny knew Callie worked at the same hospital as him. Penny is an idiot who is being set up for a major redemption arc. 

Meredith is going to rise like the sun that she is, and Penny is going to become an amazing surgeon, and almost everyone else will take a backseat in screen time in favor of all the new characters that have joined the show in the last year. 

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That being said, I don't buy Jo either, I don't know what it is? They're OK, but I'm not feeling anything that great.

is..

I don't mind Jo as a character but I not liking the Jo/Alex pair either. I also can't pinpoint what it is. I thought at first because Alex is a confident surgeon, top of his field type thing and she is not but then I remember when she first came on the show how much stronger she seemed then and had to fight her way through childhood and medical school. What happened to make her character so meek?

Last week when I saw the preview for this episode I thought I was going to hate this episode. More flashbacks and drama but wow did I really enjoy this episode. That 44 minutes or so just flew by for me.

I find Maggie and the hot intern really funny.

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I for one love Maggie and her intern.  I hope that they become a stable couple but since this is Grey's Anatomy; it probably won't happen.

 

I am sitting at a table for one, since I really dislike Arizona.  I think that she is a selfish bint and wouldn't be surprised if she does sleep with Penny. I still haven't forgiven her for not working to get Alex a decent attending job and sending him on interviews at small town Nevada and where ever else because she wanted to keep him on her service.

 

I really don't mind the invisible kids since every show seems to have a lot of them.

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Shonda can be subtle when it comes to pointing out microaggressions.

 

Stephanie also sat at the end of the table with the black surgeons! And walked away from Jo to talk to Jackson. 

 

 

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Ok. So I thinnk they left the kids at the new house with a nannie. I was hoping this hot intern would loosen Maggie up.

I may be one of the few who doesn't want anything to develop between Mer and Alex. He is her person now since Christina left her. There can be nothing between them. And he obviously cares for her, under his tough exterior. She needs a Mcsteamy to pop in and shake her up.

Edited by riffraff
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I am sitting at a table for one, since I really dislike Arizona. I think that she is a selfish bint and wouldn't be surprised if she does sleep with Penny. I still haven't forgiven her for not working to get Alex a decent attending job and sending him on interviews at small town Nevada and where ever else because she wanted to keep him on her service.

Make room at the table for me.

While I don't think she'll sleep with Penny, since they seem to be trying to make the character likeable again, I didn't think she was all that amusing this episode.

She was more cringeworthy than anything.

I still don't understand what her deal is. Her and Callie aren't together. They share a daughter. They are supposed to be friendly exes. She doesn't seem to know she's jealous. She's not actually trying to get back together with Callie, so why isn't she happy that her ex is happy?

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My husband who has never seen an ep of Grey's Anatomy wandered through the living room and marvelled that Danny Bonaduce was still working.  He was talking about Owen.  I think I laughed for like 2 minutes.

Ha, I just laughed for two minutes at that too! Now I am going to think of Dr. Bonaduce every time I look at Owen.

 

Although I am not a fan of the WASP-y "squash your feelings" thing ("Serenity now, insanity later!"), I appreciate that Meredith was making such a huge effort not to lose it in front of everyone. She tried (unsuccessfully) to act normal, she ran upstairs to collect herself, and really tried not to lose it in front of her guests. I'm not sure how much of that was selfishly not wanting to have everyone look at her with pity and how much of that was just not wanting to ruin the dinner party, but I do appreciate that she had no intention of outing Penny to everyone because her plan was just to get through the night, one breath and one minute at a time, and then never see Penny again. But when she found out that she was going to have to see Penny every day at work, she just lost it, which I can understand. It's one thing to tell yourself that you just need to hold it all in for a few hours, but realizing that you will have to do it every day indefinitely is enough to make a person explode.

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The Stephanie telling Jo she was better than her felt almost out of place until you place it in context with what she said earlier and even what happened last week.  Last week I felt there was an argument that the confrontation with Weber had a leetle tendril of a racial undertone.  Where the black characters might feel it in the room, but the white characters were blind to it.  But I put it aside because it wasn't really overt and felt maybe I was projecting.  But this week when Stephanie brought up again "they barely know who you are and yet they automatically believe you over me." made me feel that leetle  tendril of racial undertone again.   So of course when Jo mentions Stephanie's illness in relation to her accomplishments and drive that probably set off a red-flag in Steph's head.  Because black students can be so very aware that they have to to work twice as hard to be considered half as good.  And reasons are given as to why are excel -- except the obvious ones like smarts.  And like it or not, Shonda can be subtle when it comes to pointing out microaggressions.  I remember in an ep of Scandal Liv and Abby walked into a room to meet a new client, and the woman walked over to Abby and said 'You must be Olivia Pope.'  Nothing else was made of it, Liv just corrected her and introduced herself and that was it.  But as a viewer everyone got what just happened there. So I think there may be a little of that going on.

I think you are right on the money with this. I also wondered if racial undertones were meant during the Weber convo last week, especially when Amelia looked so immediately ashamed when he asked her why she was so willing to believe Jo when she knows Stephanie so much better. I got the same vibe this week, even if Jo was obvlious and Stephanie may have been jumping to conclusions. I do think that the example Jo used was clunky and made things confusing. She tried to link challenging life experiences to motivation for performance (not to intelligence or actual surgical ability) so Stephanie's rant fell a little flat to me even though I know what she was going for.

 

In any event, I think that what this really points to is that most of these characters can be, um...let's call it challenged with reading nuiance or exhibiting basic emotional responses outside of themselves. Penny is clearly uncomfortable? Callie: "Stay here when I leave!". Amelia is blaming the world for her grief? Owen tells an awkward story that isn't exactly addressing what she said. Alex goes to comfort a clearly grieving friend of many years? Jo: "Alex is ignorning me!". On and on...

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 Alex goes to comfort a clearly grieving friend of many years? Jo: "Alex is ignorning me!".

 

He could have both comforted his friend and acknowledged the presence of his girlfriend. It's possible. And I'm sure Jo would have been more understanding if it wasn't something that happens regularly. She keeps playing second fiddle to Meredith (who treats her like dirt) and she has a right to feel annoyed about it.

Besides, like it's already been pointed out, Meredith would hardly be as supportive of him if he was going through a tough time. She completely dismissed his needs when he was preparing his presentation for the board and kept bothering him about her family issues and what not - and then even voted against him!

 

Jo was being stupid when she insisted they talk about those frozen eggs while he needed to rest after an exhausting day at the hospital, but I don't really think she was much in the wrong here. 

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Alex loved  Izzie so damn much that he forgot her once saying to him that he wasn't even half the man that Denny was on a good day. Yet years later Izzie was still all he wanted. Shit, doesn't Jo deserve that same kind of intense love?  I mean why not and as a viewer who doesn't even ship this couple, I'm not seeing that intensity.

 

 

I think that has a lot more to do with Izzie than with Jo.  Izzie was a favorite of Shonda's and so Alex's role was to serve in Izzie's orbit, just like his role now is to serve in Meredith's.  So pretty much nearly every Alex/Izzie story was really about Izzie, and now the Alex/Meredith friendship is really about Meredith.  I guess Shonda found someone that she is less interested in than Alex, so Jo's role is to serve in Alex's orbit.  That seems to be a problem in her couples.  One is the Alpha and stays that way throughout, and it is their point of view that is cultivated.  

 

I don't mind Jo as a character but I not liking the Jo/Alex pair either. I also can't pinpoint what it is. I thought at first because Alex is a confident surgeon, top of his field type thing and she is not but then I remember when she first came on the show how much stronger she seemed then and had to fight her way through childhood and medical school. What happened to make her character so meek?

 

 

 

Great question.  They have completely taken away Jo's edge, as well as Alex's.  She used to be snarky and funny and while she never quite pulled of the whole "kid of the streets" completely convincingly, it wasn't totally unbelievable either.  Now she is a generic girlfriend and a doormat.  As far as Alex, I feel like they are trying to "McDreamy" him and I hate it.  He has usually been a good friend to Meredith and I get that he is growing up, but his edge is completely gone.  He lets people walk over him (and his girlfriend), dishes out compliments to everyone rather than sarcastic remarks and never calls his friends on their assholery.  Where is the guy who threatened and blackmailed Jo's boyfriend while he was in the hospital (which horrified Dudley Do Right Derek)?  Personally, I miss that dysfunctional couple.  They are even dressing Alex in boring old tucked in oxford shirts FFS.  Becoming Meredith's person has been awful for his character.

 

He could have both comforted his friend and acknowledged the presence of his girlfriend. It's possible. And I'm sure Jo would have been more understanding if it wasn't something that happens regularly. She keeps playing second fiddle to Meredith (who treats her like dirt) and she has a right to feel annoyed about it.

 

My issue with Jo is how they are writing her.  Putting aside the fact that she has the right to be annoyed by Alex and his friends, SHE needs to either do something about it or stop complaining.  She is being completely passive and reactive.  Her reaction to Alex, to Stephanie, to the attendings' treatment of her is to complain and then do nothing about it.  You feel like you are being disrespected by your attendings?  Kick ass at the hospital and make them notice you.  You feel like Alex's friends are mean to you?  Don't just sit by with an annoyed look on your face when they talk down to you.  Put them in their place or try to find some common interest.  If they already don't respect you, what can it hurt?  Alex is ignoring you?  Get a fucking hobby so that you have something to talk about besides him!  Go to Joe's with the interns, join a book club, something and let Alex see what it feels like when you don't have time for him.  Ugh.  I really like Jo, but this has to stop. She is one self-righteous speech away from becoming Izzie* and I just CANNOT have that.

 

ETA - Okay, Jo isn't really becoming Izzie because she treats Alex 100x better but she is floundering and complaining the way that Izzie did in seasons 3 and 4.

Edited by Deanie87
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My issue with Jo is how they are writing her.  Putting aside the fact that she has the right to be annoyed by Alex and his friends, SHE needs to either do something about it or stop complaining.  She is being completely passive and reactive.  Her reaction to Alex, to Stephanie, to the attendings' treatment of her is to complain and then do nothing about it.  You feel like you are being disrespected by your attendings?  Kick ass at the hospital and make them notice you.  You feel like Alex's friends are mean to you?  Don't just sit by with an annoyed look on your face when they talk down to you.  Put them in their place or try to find some common interest.  If they already don't respect you, what can it hurt?  Alex is ignoring you?  Get a fucking hobby so that you have something to talk about besides him!  Go to Joe's with the interns, join a book club, something and let Alex see what it feels like when you don't have time for him.  Ugh.  I really like Jo, but this has to stop. She is one self-righteous speech away from becoming Izzie* and I just CANNOT have that.

I agree with all of this. I also still feel that in this instance Jo completely misread the emotional context of the dinner and chose to complain when Alex clearly had a reason to be worried about Meredith. She was at the table when Meredith dropped the Penny bombshell--they all clearly saw how upset she was! I definitely don't solely blame Jo for the Alex/Jo drama, but IMO this was clearly not the time to make a situation about her issues with Alex/his friends when Meredith was freaking out and really needed a friend (even if she isn't a perfect friend herself).

 

ETA: I think the earlier posts suggesting the possibility of purposeful character assassination raise an interesting point. This character has really departed from who she was when we met her.

Edited by LostWithSawyer

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I think that has a lot more to do with Izzie than with Jo.  Izzie was a favorite of Shonda's and so Alex's role was to serve in Izzie's orbit, just like his role now is to serve in Meredith's.  So pretty much nearly every Alex/Izzie story was really about Izzie, and now the Alex/Meredith friendship is really about Meredith.  I guess Shonda found someone that she is less interested in than Alex, so Jo's role is to serve in Alex's orbit.  That seems to be a problem in her couples.  One is the Alpha and stays that way throughout, and it is their point of view that is cultivated.  

We all know Meredith is the "sun" - isn't that what Christine told her?

What blame?

Maybe explain what she did wrong.

I never said she was a saint, but she thought Penny was nervous based on her own words.

Penny never told her anything. She was just as caught off guard.

Callie isn't to blame for the whole "Penny is Derek's killer" fiasco. That was not her fault at all, and she had no way of knowing that background. That, certainly, was Penny's fault, no matter how implausible it would be for this situation to happen in the first place. I like Callie, but I thought she was a lousy girlfriend in this episode. 

 

Let's take the killer drama off the table and suppose they were going to some regular party. So here's what Callie is to blame for - she didn't listen to her girlfriend. She dismissed her girlfriend by making assumptions and ignoring her multiple requests to leave. She didn't ask, or even suggest they go somewhere private so they could talk. She actually left her behind at the party. Granted, she thought her friends would be welcoming (which they were until all hell broke loose), and that Penny could get along. But she did not spend one second giving actual thought to why Penny wanted to leave - not even after her second request. She was completely insensitive. 

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My issue with Jo is how they are writing her.  Putting aside the fact that she has the right to be annoyed by Alex and his friends, SHE needs to either do something about it or stop complaining.  She is being completely passive and reactive.  Her reaction to Alex, to Stephanie, to the attendings' treatment of her is to complain and then do nothing about it.  You feel like you are being disrespected by your attendings?  Kick ass at the hospital and make them notice you.  You feel like Alex's friends are mean to you?  Don't just sit by with an annoyed look on your face when they talk down to you.  Put them in their place or try to find some common interest.  If they already don't respect you, what can it hurt?  Alex is ignoring you?  Get a fucking hobby so that you have something to talk about besides him!  Go to Joe's with the interns, join a book club, something and let Alex see what it feels like when you don't have time for him.  Ugh.  I really like Jo, but this has to stop. She is one self-righteous speech away from becoming Izzie* and I just CANNOT have that.

 

I totally agree with this. 

 

When I think back to when Cristina couldn't get a cardio attending to teach her (I'm not comparing Jo and Cristina, it's just vaguely similar circumstances) and yet she kept trying to find ways to get in there and do what she loved and what he knew she could do. I'd like to see more of that sort of attitude from Jo. For someone who herself said that her childhood has made her fight for it a bit more, I don't see much fight in her. 

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We all know Meredith is the "sun" - isn't that what Christine told her?

Callie isn't to blame for the whole "Penny is Derek's killer" fiasco. That was not her fault at all, and she had no way of knowing that background. That, certainly, was Penny's fault, no matter how implausible it would be for this situation to happen in the first place. I like Callie, but I thought she was a lousy girlfriend in this episode.

Let's take the killer drama off the table and suppose they were going to some regular party. So here's what Callie is to blame for - she didn't listen to her girlfriend. She dismissed her girlfriend by making assumptions and ignoring her multiple requests to leave. She didn't ask, or even suggest they go somewhere private so they could talk. She actually left her behind at the party. Granted, she thought her friends would be welcoming (which they were until all hell broke loose), and that Penny could get along. But she did not spend one second giving actual thought to why Penny wanted to leave - not even after her second request. She was completely insensitive.

See, I would agree if this was actually true but it isn't.

Penny initially said it was too early to meet the friends. Callie thought she was nervous and didn't agree.

It was up to Penny at that point to say can we talk privately.

Not once did she.

Callie went to Meredith before she left and asked her to make sure that Penny had a good time.

She was trying to look out for her. That's not a bad girlfriend.

A bad girlfriend is someone who keeps this huge secret and then places herself and her new girlfriend in an extremely uncomfortable situation.

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See, I would agree if this was actually true but it isn't.

Penny initially said it was too early to meet the friends. Callie thought she was nervous and didn't agree.

It was up to Penny at that point to say can we talk privately.

Not once did she.

Callie went to Meredith before she left and asked her to make sure that Penny had a good time.

She was trying to look out for her. That's not a bad girlfriend.

A bad girlfriend is someone who keeps this huge secret and then places herself and her new girlfriend in an extremely uncomfortable situation.

I do not at all disagree that Penny was being a bad girlfriend. With every thing else, I guess it's a matter of perspective.  

 

As you said,  "Callie thought she was nervous and didn't agree." This is exactly where I felt Callie entirely dismissed Penny's desire to leave - whatever her stated reason - and was not at all considerate of her, ultimately leaving there by herself despite her requests to leave. Asking your friend to take care of her is not the same thing as taking care of her yourself. 

 

But, again, it's a matter of perspective and I can see your perspective. I just have a different one.

Edited by clanstarling

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I do not at all disagree that Penny was being a bad girlfriend. With every thing else, I guess it's a matter of perspective.

As you said, "Callie thought she was nervous and didn't agree." This is exactly where I felt Callie entirely dismissed Penny's desire to leave - whatever her stated reason - and was not at all considerate of her, ultimately leaving there by herself despite her requests to leave. Asking your friend to take care of her is not the same thing as taking care of her yourself.

But, again, it's a matter of perspective and I can see your perspective. I just have a different one.

We do have different perspectives for sure and that's okay.

But I think it's putting an awful lot responsibility on Callie in this situation.

Callie does make assumptions and does interrupt. It's who she is. But she's not physically stopping people from actually using their words. These people are adults. If they want something, flat out say it.

Once Callie left, why didn't Penny just leave?

Are we going to blame Amelia for ignoring Penny's obvious discomfort and forcing her to stay?

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Penny's a big girl. She could have just up and left that party at any time. She could have pulled up maps on her smart phone to figure out where she was and called a cab, phoned a friend, whatever. Even with Callie insisting she stay, even with Meredith trying to hold it all in, Penny knew that Meredith was just as uncomfortable as she was, if not more so. Callie didn't chain her to a chair. Penny could have left, but she didn't.

 

Just like Penny could still have transferred to a different hospital regardless of Meredith's "blessing" telling her to not be late on Monday. 

Therefore, when she gets crapped on next week and beyond, I'm not going to feel sorry for her. Because she knows the situation that she's walking into, she knows what she's disrupting, but just like at the dinner party she's going to stay anyway. 

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Once Callie left, why didn't Penny just leave?

 

I think Penny's reasons for staying are twofold:

 

1) She, in a weird way, felt that she deserved this.  If Derek was the first/only person who died under her direct care maybe she needed this public flagellation. Obviously there is a level of guilt there that she is unable dismiss as professional misjudgment.  There was a point in the dinner where she was trying to explain what happened that night in medical terms and it sounded like (or at least I fanwank) it was an explanation she had made to herself 1,000 times and this was an opportunity to justify it out loud to colleagues -- maybe they can vindicate her a bit?  Absolve her guilt some?  of course she underestimated the level of maturity amongst the crew she was with.  LOL.

 

and

 

2) She knew she was going to be working  with them and once she realized how close they were/important to Derek, she realized that this needed to be dealt with and sooner get it over now rather than later.

Edited by DearEvette
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of course she underestimated the level of maturity amongst the crew she was with.  LOL.

 

 

No doubt they are not the most mature bunch of people but she's no better. She's clearly not the most emotionally intelligent if she thought that being at Derek's widow's house with his family and friends was the time/place to discuss what happened with them. If she stayed to make herself feel better or make starting work easier for her, then all she was thinking about was herself and not giving them any consideration. She should have left immediately when she knew who Meredith was.

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No doubt they are not the most mature bunch of people but she's no better. She's clearly not the most emotionally intelligent if she thought that being at Derek's widow's house with his family and friends was the time/place to discuss what happened with them. If she stayed to make herself feel better or make starting work easier for her, then all she was thinking about was herself and not giving them any consideration. She should have left immediately when she knew who Meredith was.

 

I would imagine that she didn't leave immediately because people tend to be conditioned to do polite things regardless of how they feel.  And to some extent she took her cue from Meredith.  At that point they were the only two people who knew what was what.  Meredith invited her in, took her coat, offered her a drink.  She probably felt that all she needed to do was make it through the dinner and not make things awkward for everyone else as long as Meredith was willing to just be a polite hostess and allow her to remain in her anonymity.

 

Once Meredith let the cat out of the bag, yeah she could have fled because clearly the polite portion of the evening was over.  And she didn't invite conversation about Derek, Amelia kept on her about it even when people tried to move it along and even she she tried to deflect herself.  But like I said above I think there was a level of needing the condemnation and absolution from peers.

 

While saying 'She killed  my husband" is great for drama, it is really a rather simplistic and unfair and yes, immature, thing of Meredith to say.  Unless it was a matter of gross negligence then it is even an inaccurate thing for Meredith to say.  And the people who were sitting at that table would be aware of that.  But Amelia made it all about her like, really, nobody in that room ever, ever, ever had anyone die on them from professional misjudgement?

Edited by DearEvette
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Did anyone feel a certain vibe in that MerAlex scene sitting on the floor in her bedroom with a bottle of tequilla between them?

 

Why did Callie tell Owen to change clothes??? What does the fact that shrieky Amelia will be at the party have to do with what clothes he has on?

 

What really amused me was the intern Cross and his rocking horse. The actor is really good at comedy.

Edited by Nobodysfan
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Good Lord Amelia has the crazy eyes when she's angry.  I have a hard time looking at her.  

 

Whether Penny should have stayed or left is one thing--I think she should have left--but I definitely think she should have transferred somewhere else.  I don't know if Meredith wants to teach her or torture her (probably both) but I'm not looking forward to her getting crapped on and I won't feel sorry for her at all when it happens.

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Just watched this episode today (Saturday), so I don't have much new to add by way of commentary. 

 

Jo's hair looked like raccoons chewed on it - really awful.

 

The one thing that bothered me during the Meredith-screaming-at-Amelia scene was: why didn't Meredith indicate that she (Meredith) had JUST found out/recalled/remembered who Penny is? As soon as Amelia said, "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU KEPT THIS FROM ME!!!!" I would have screamed back, "I JUST REALIZED TONIGHT WHO PENNY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!"   As it is now, Amelia might mistakenly be thinking that Meredith's known about Penny for days/weeks/months. So that irritated me very much. 

 

I can't stand April. I hope to hell Jackson pursues the divorce to completion. I used to like them as a couple but I'm done with them together, and I find it almost a bit sick that April refuses to acknowledge that Jackson is done with her.

 

This show is a soap opera first and foremost. The whole point of soaps is tension - miscommunication - wrong place/wrong time - misinterpretation - forbidden or illicit couplings and so on. Happy people are boring and would not be able to carry a 48 minute story line. No one wants to watch that for more than a few moments. Since soaps have been around since the days of radio, there's very little left in the way of originality, so I'm not sure what else can be done that's witty, compelling, and novel. Thus, I don't expect much from this show. Good looking, well-dressed people acting like idiots most of the time - that's about it!

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Once Meredith let the cat out of the bag, yeah she could have fled because clearly the polite portion of the evening was over.....

 

That is a fantastic way to put how things were about to go!! 

 

I don't know why, but Penny being there and coming to SGM to work doesn't bother me (yet, always a cautionary note for this show).  I'm interested to see the story playing out.  Therefore, I guess I can hand-wave a lot of things that had to happen for her to end up at Meredith's door.  And honestly, that last shot of the episode prior to this one, which left us at 'holy, moly, this next episode is going to be hella good', and this episode which lived up to the anticipation, made me happy to hand-wave away!  

 

Her arrival also shook things up enough that I'm curious to see the ripple effects that it has on other cast members.

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Just watched this episode today (Saturday), so I don't have much new to add by way of commentary. 

 

Jo's hair looked like raccoons chewed on it - really awful.

 

The one thing that bothered me during the Meredith-screaming-at-Amelia scene was: why didn't Meredith indicate that she (Meredith) had JUST found out/recalled/remembered who Penny is? As soon as Amelia said, "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU KEPT THIS FROM ME!!!!" I would have screamed back, "I JUST REALIZED TONIGHT WHO PENNY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!"   As it is now, Amelia might mistakenly be thinking that Meredith's known about Penny for days/weeks/months. So that irritated me very much. 

 

I can't stand April. I hope to hell Jackson pursues the divorce to completion. I used to like them as a couple but I'm done with them together, and I find it almost a bit sick that April refuses to acknowledge that Jackson is done with her.

 

This show is a soap opera first and foremost. The whole point of soaps is tension - miscommunication - wrong place/wrong time - misinterpretation - forbidden or illicit couplings and so on. Happy people are boring and would not be able to carry a 48 minute story line. No one wants to watch that for more than a few moments. Since soaps have been around since the days of radio, there's very little left in the way of originality, so I'm not sure what else can be done that's witty, compelling, and novel. Thus, I don't expect much from this show. Good looking, well-dressed people acting like idiots most of the time - that's about it!

You always nail it.

Good Lord Amelia has the crazy eyes when she's angry.  I have a hard time looking at her.  

 

 

 

 

I can´t watch her either. I had to look away.

Edited by Nobodysfan
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And the character assassination is complete.  Owen was relieved when he heard Cristina might be dead?  I don't believe it.  I don't believe it for a second.  First of all, I don't believe Owen would ever feel that way about Cristina.  But also, Meredith, Derek, Lexi, Mark, and Arizona were just collateral damage to him?  Do.Not.Believe.

 

I loved all the Alex / Meredith stuff. I wondered if maybe they were gonna hook up in that bedroom scene. And speaking of rooms... since when did Amelia smashing the wall turn into an ENTIRE home renovation? The entrance is totally different, too. Where the hell are the kids??

 

[snip]

 

Edited to add: I forgot all about Jo even being in this episode because, despite being on the show for years now, she's still only used as a prop. It's why I still don't care about her being with Alex. I don't hate or love her character, but Shonda is using her suddenly to prop up Stef. This story just seems so random, and Jo is getting shit on. Alex just ignores her and it's funny? Their relationship is a joke. 

 

I love everything Meredith and Alex.  He's been protective of her for a long time, and I think the show needs interaction between the only two left of the original five.  In theory I'm upset on Jo's behalf that she's shut out, but why should I care when she treats it as a joke?  I think Jo is good for Alex, but I've never seen them as soul mates, or anything even close.  Their relationship has always seemed like having fun together and good sex.  If the show continues next season, I wish they would find a better love interest for Alex.

 

My stupid phone keeps eating my post, so I hope third time is the charm.
I loved this episode; it was riveting. Loved seeing the Mer/Alex friendship, thought the acting was stellar and writing was very good. I'll probably rewatch before the weekend is over.
I loved the Jackson-Callie moment and Mer's explosion at Amelia.
But I still don't like Amelia, and I found Maggie even more irritating than usual. What cardiothoracic surgeon babbles like a sugar-crazed 12-year-old?
And I hated Penny the character and thought the actress wasn't very convincing.
But overall, best episode in past couple of seasons, or possibly tied for best with the recent Alex-centric one.

 

I don't have a problem with Maggie's behavior.  It's not unusual that someone who's really brilliant and dedicated to their craft, is also a social misfit.  Maggie would have always been younger than her peers, and was probably left out of their age-appropriate (for them) endeavors. 

 

I liked Penny last season, but something's missing for me in this episode.  It would have helped if they didn't already show Meredith essentially "forgiving" her last season.  That scene should never have happened, and it now feels out of place. 

 

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I was just thinking that the baton of the self-absorbed seems to be passed between characters. I remember Cristina being annoyed with Meredith, when she wanted to talk to her (when she was upset), but Cristina pointed out that she wanted Owen, and shut the door in her face. Yet Cristina was the one who would burst into the bedroom, when Derek was with Meredith, climb into bed between them, and sometimes boot him out. That's just one example. People used to go on about Meredith's whining, or Izzie going on and on. Amelia is just the latest to catch all of that. 

 

I did laugh at a comment in another thread (by Deanie?) that maybe she and Penny would end up besties, swapping capes, and all that. I'd completely forgotten about the super hero bit. The writing can be ridiculous.

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