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S11.E17: With Or Without You

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Seriously!!!! Rose all over again -- she even looks like her . . . oh, gag me, really . . . I hate this -- I know it's only 3/4 of the way through but I am just fed up w/it already -- between Owen & and Amelia, etc, etc.

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Was it better because there were fewer characters?  I'm not sure, but I didn't hate it as much as I have the past few episodes.

 

However, I wish they could come up with some way to do humour without making people into idiots.  The patient came off as childish, and so did Jo.  Maybe it's just me but she seemed really unprofessional.  

 

Owen - take it down a notch or twelve.  You're damn lucky Amelia still put out after you spoke to her like that.  You're also lucky your mother is still talking to you.

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Was it better because there were fewer characters?

Were there fewer characters? Really? I could have done without Owen, his mom, her boyfriend, Jo, her patient, that critter in her patient's nose, the research fellow in DC (who acted like she'd never seen a male human being before) and Amelia (The Wrong Dr. Shepherd).

 

And so Meredith is The SUN and Derek is back to being her doormat (he practically said "You are the SUN - take my balls and wear them on your keyring"). Glad we've cleared that up...

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Didn't think any of the stories were engaging tonight. Owen has been an empty shell since his repeated character assassination (during Seasons Six, Seven and Eight) and I don't care about him or his trite one-episode arcs, regardless of how brilliant a performance Debra Mooney gives. Meanwhile, Jo's patient was purposely gross and unnecessary. 

 

The Meredith/Derek stuff was exceedingly sappy (and I hated all the fancy editing techniques they've been overdoing this season) -- especially the dialogue in the final scene, which was redeemed only by a surprisingly nuanced take by Pompeo, who finally seems to have stopped phoning in her performance (as she has been known to do).

 

The end of the fifth act, with a fine song selection over the haunting loss of Meredith and Alex's patient, Derek's seeming betrayal, and Alex comforting his friend, was the only part of the installment that worked. THAT felt like old GA. Everything else... forgettable tripe. 

Edited by upperco
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That was it?

 

Three weeks for that kiss? Well they really milked it.

 

I really liked the last scene. PD can deliver dreamy speeches really well. I didn't actively disliked Meredith tonight, so that's something. 

 

Owen needs to be on meds. Just chill the eff up, man. Jeez. 

 

Don't care about the rest.

 

And so Meredith is The SUN and Derek is back to being her doormat (he practically said "You are the SUN - take my balls and wear them on your keyring"). Glad we've cleared that up...

WELL OF COURSE. Not sure why expect any different. 

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These stories all seem like such a retread to me. Sorry, but I agreed with Owen. No way in hell would a guy that age be sexually attracted to a woman who looks to be around 70. Maybe if she looked like Audrey Hepburn, but no. I didn't like how silly the worm patient was or the unprofessional way Jo was acting either.

 

I would think Derek could have seen that kiss coming from a mile away and he did nothing to stop it. Then again Meredith is such a pill nowadays, I can see where a young, eager starry eyed type would appeal to him.

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Oy, the boredom. This has truly become "have it on in the background" TV.

 

The subplot with Owen's mom was blisteringly stupid. Normal guys in their early 30s who are handsome, healthy, smart, and altogether a "catch" do not shack up with women pushing 70 without some kind of agenda involved. Being told that this is normal and beautiful as opposed to creepy and weird was irritating. I don't like agreeing with Owen.

 

Of course Derek is making out with someone. I really, really, really don't buy the MerDer love. They say how much they love each other, but I have 11 seasons' worth of evidence that they are a dysfunctional duo and I don't see the kind of intense love that we are constantly beaten over the head with.

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I'm glad Amelia called Owen a jackass because he is. To the women at the hospital especially. 

Happy to see Debra Mooney back, though. I like when the parents show up! 

 

Bless that patient for slapping Jo. It was long overdue. 

 

Of course MerDer were going to be fine. However, I did not appreciate Derek kissing the woman, or the woman kissing him, whichever. Is that stuff really necessary on this show? Did Derek need that to realize how in love he is with Meredith and that he'll do anything to prove it to her? This show is running out of ideas as to how to drum up compelling drama and conflict. 

 

The mid season slump continues. 

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The subplot with Owen's mom was blisteringly stupid. Normal guys in their early 30s who are handsome, healthy, smart, and altogether a "catch" do not shack up with women pushing 70 without some kind of agenda involved. Being told that this is normal and beautiful as opposed to creepy and weird was irritating. I don't like agreeing with Owen.

 

I would expect a guy who was genuinely interested would have some mommy issues, much like some women who go for much older men have some daddy issues.

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Was it better because there were fewer characters?  I'm not sure, but I didn't hate it as much as I have the past few episodes.

 

Owen - take it down a notch or twelve.  You're damn lucky Amelia still put out after you spoke to her like that.  You're also lucky your mother is still talking to you.

 

IMHO, it was better because Patrick is back.

 

I think Owen actually did take it down a few notches.  I'm quite shocked that he didn't even take a swing at the guy.  I was expecting him to go full on cage fighter.

 

That was it?

 

Three weeks for that kiss? Well they really milked it.

 

I really liked the last scene. PD can deliver dreamy speeches really well. I didn't actively disliked Meredith tonight, so that's something. 

 

And PD does teary eyed dreamy speeches even better.

 

I'm hoping and praying that, for his sake, Derek actually told Mere that he kissed the research assistant, and the flashback wasn't just to inform the viewers.  Unless I missed it, they didn't show him telling Mere, and I'm sure all hell will break loose if he didn't tell her and she finds out later.

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I'm okay with Owen's mother and the young guy.  Out of all the sexual proclivities and unlikely pairings in the world, that one hardly seems to be the one that's flat out impossible.

 

Hated everything else.  Haaated.  Geez, Owen doesn't have much control over his excited utterances, you know, FOR A TRAUMA SURGEON.

 

Nose leech was disgusting.  And the leech was the most well behaved character in the storyline.

 

I guess DerMer won't be wasting any more time with silly pillow talk like "No, I love you more."

 

Sonofabitch, that kid messed up Meredith's streak.

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I have to say I spent the entire time wondering what the damage was with Owen's mom's boyfriend.  However, I wonder if the reaction would have been the same had it been thatcher with the woman younger than Meredith.    I think the implication still would have been she was after him for his money, but I don't think anybody would have threatened to change his locks and bank account numbers etc.   

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I'm hoping and praying that, for his sake, Derek actually told Mere that he kissed the research assistant

Personally, I think he did. I doubt that they'd stay up all night talking had he not say anything. The show left it vague because they're lazy but FWIW, I think he did.

 

I wonder if the reaction would have been the same had it been thatcher with the woman younger than Meredith.

It already happened in S7 and Lexie went nuts. I think reaction is different when it's your parent dating someone younger than you, than just as an outside observer.

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I think reaction is different when it's your parent dating someone younger than you, than just as an outside observer.

 

 

Especially when it's been going on for a year and you first find out about it by meeting them when your parent is in the hospital.

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Given when the episode was filmed, PD's watery eyes fighting for his marriage completely bummed me out. The man's always been great at acting with his dreamy (or occasionally bitter and hateful) eyes, but I'm not sure the moisture was all acting.

Guess that solves the loose end of why a mistress would possibly answer the phone when the wife calls (let alone not play it off with the logical, "I'm a research assistant, he left his phone at the lab"); she answered and hung up with at least the partial intention of sabotaging his marriage.

I have to say I spent the entire time wondering what the damage was with Owen's mom's boyfriend. However, I wonder if the reaction would have been the same had it been thatcher with the woman younger than Meredith. I think the implication still would have been she was after him for his money, but I don't think anybody would have threatened to change his locks and bank account numbers etc.

Thatcher did date someone who was, I think, younger than Meredith - basically Lexie's age. Meredith took it magnanimously, but Lexie basically did the 27 year old woman version of what Owen did. But she was primarily pissed at Thatcher.

There are definitely young guys who prefer older women (or other distinct, less commonly-desired "types"), but an older man/younger woman is taken more as embarrassing/gold digger/Daddy issues, whereas older woman/younger man is read more as "he's taking advantage of her/using her/making a fool out of her."

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Of course MerDer were going to be fine. However, I did not appreciate Derek kissing the woman, or the woman kissing him, whichever. Is that stuff really necessary on this show? Did Derek need that to realize how in love he is with Meredith and that he'll do anything to prove it to her?

 

They always need something like that move forward or resolve a problem. One has to date or meet someone someone else (Finn, Rose,Lexie in the bar), die (Meredith), almost die (Meredith, Derek), have people around them die (too many to list) and so on to have them come to their big realization. 

And so Meredith is The SUN and Derek is back to being her doormat (he practically said "You are the SUN - take my balls and wear them on your keyring"). Glad we've cleared that up...

 

Maybe they are saving the "You are my universe, my sun!" for the season finale after Anitam86's zombie apocalypse.

However, I wish they could come up with some way to do humour without making people into idiots.  The patient came off as childish, and so did Jo.  Maybe it's just me but she seemed really unprofessional.

 

I did laugh at the way Camilia delivered the "critter" line. Maybe it was the wine. Jo may have been unprofessional but look at where she has done her training! Take the Chief of Surgery tonight for example, picture of professionalism. At least Jo got a pet out of it.

 

Speaking of professionalism - Is this how Derek leaves a job where he was basically appointed by the President? Just runs off still wearing his lab coat and never returns? How professional. No resignation, allow them time to find a replacement, hand off to the next person, etc. Nope. Just "oops I kissed someone, realized I wanted to go back to my family, gotta go".  

 

In the end I am thrilled Derek is back because can he please take Meredith now?

 

 

 

 

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I persist and sign, the research fellow screams Bunny Boiler. Yep, I agree that she didn't answer in order to stir trouble. Probably, she isn't done with it.

I liked that Mere said she could live without Derek, but didn't want to. She chooses him, she picks him. I see what you did there.

 

Quite a lot of Alex, I loved that. He was just the best. And for once, Meredith had the good grace to look thankful in the end. Yes, Mere, you have a great friend here.

 

I think Owen actually did take it down a few notches.  I'm quite shocked that he didn't even take a swing at the guy.  I was expecting him to go full on cage fighter.
 

I kind of expected it, too. A tiger can't change its stripes and Owen was never the king of delicacy and restraint. He was a plain jerk here though, yep.

OTOH, I completely understand why he was upset. I would have thought the same in his place (and I'd have thought the same had the genders been reversed).

 

Stephanie is back getting on my nerves, making demands on other residents. Why is she still around, already?

Another week in a row where I didn't dislike Bailey. Progress!

Loved the Callie/Alex/Maggie scene, too.

 

I loved seeing April and I liked her little interaction with Jo (who worked well for me in her comic-relief scenes). I'd like more scenes where they work together, because they both have their little brand of excentricity; add Callie to the mix and I'd be even happier. I'd like to see more Jackson and April, too, but I think it will happen soon.

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Leaving aside the tired Meredith/Derek drama and the dumb Owen story, I'm feeling robbed because we didn't get so much as a sideways glance between Meredith and Crista Flanagan (leech-in-sinuses woman), who used to play her when "MadTV" lampooned this show!

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Dear everyone,

 

When a doctor/lab tech/person who is running tests tells you to stop talking, please STOP TALKING. We aren't saying it just to be jerks. We actually need you to stop talking so we can do the procedure. When you go into the scanner and you talk, you are moving your head which means we can't get a clear picture of your brain. It drives me crazy when characters on tv shows go into the MRI and just keep talking the entire time. Those chatty head wiggling people are the reason why some scanners have a foam thing to keep your head still.

 

Sincerely,

Doctors, technicians, and other people who deal with patients

 

As for nose creature lady, how many times does a doctor have to tell you to stop talking while she tries to remove a creature from your nose? And then to say you won't let her try again? So you're happy with the headaches and the weird unknown organism living in your head? I guess so since sitting still and not talking for all of 5 minutes is too difficult. I am normally not an April fan, but the way she told the nose creature lady about how the leech was going to eat her brain like it was a scary kids' story was awesome.

 

Alex has finally fully embraced his role as Meredith's person. It was so sweet to see him hug her while she told him to stop.

 

Owen snapping at Amelia was just one more sign that he is not ready to be with someone. I know he was upset about his mom's new boyfriend but that was not Amelia's fault. If he is already taking his anger out on Amelia before they've even gone on a date, just think how fun he'll be when they've been together long enough for him to totally take her for granted.

 

I also hated him being so judgey about his mom's boyfriend. I laughed when his mom told her boyfriend, "Owen does everything for me!" Really? He does so much for you that he doesn't know you write or have been dating this guy for six months? I understand wanting to protect your mother but she's not senile. If she wants to be with this guy, it's not Owen's business to tell her not to. ASS. And as many people have already pointed out, it seems perfectly acceptable when the older party is male and the younger party is female. My issue with age difference in relationships is mostly when people are younger. When a guy in his 20s is dating a high school girl, yeah, I have a problem with that. But once you're past, I don't know, 30 or so, I figure you are both adults so you are going in with your eyes wide open. As long as they're both consenting adults, then it's fine with me.

 

I was rolling my eyes every time Renee made cow eyes at Derek. Hopefully she won't file a sexual harassment claim against Derek.

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I just love when the GA episode is bad because I know this recap is going to be good. By the way, Virginia Woolf an awesome writer!

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Meredith couldn't live without him when he was shot ("I can't live without you, if you die, I die"), and told him so, but now? Eh. Not so much.

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Owen snapping at Amelia was just one more sign that he is not ready to be with someone. I know he was upset about his mom's new boyfriend but that was not Amelia's fault. If he is already taking his anger out on Amelia before they've even gone on a date, just think how fun he'll be when they've been together long enough for him to totally take her for granted.

Amelia seems to be the same way, so weirdly enough, she and Owen may be compatible.

Meredith couldn't live without him when he was shot ("I can't live without you, if you die, I die"), and told him so, but now? Eh. Not so much.

I think there may be a difference between "I can't live without dead-you" and "I can live without alive-you-living-across-the-country."

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From the recap: 

 

 Renee! Making out with a married dude is one thing, but not knowing what a coffee mug is is unforgivable.

 

I call coffee mugs "cups" all the time.  A lot of people use the two terms interchangeably, including pretty much everyone I know.

 

And the sad thing is, I was more concerned with pointing this out than I was with anything that happened during the episode.  Except for Alex, this episode sucked.  I missed the last 2 or 3 eps due to American Idol, and after watching this one, I can see I missed absolutely nothing worth bothering about.  Except Alex, of course, but then, he only gets one or two scenes per show anyway.

 

Is it bad that I was hoping Alex's patient would die, just because Meredith was being a smug, arrogant, reckless asshat?

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I really can't with some of the people here. Half of the characters on the show have a God complex, treat everyone around them like shit and are being pretty crappy human beings and then you say that someone slapping Jo was overdue? Are you for real? What has she even done? If you find her annoying or can't relate to her, whatever, but she certainly hasn't done anything horrible to deserve being slapped. She's even "okay" with Alex spending all his time and energy on Meredith now even though for the past two years it was Jo who stood by his side during Jimmy, Private Practice, even the board when everyone voted against him. I honestly expected her to become a bitch and lash out on Meredith by now but she didn't even do that for some reason (Shonda had tweeted that she would but I guess that was another one of her lies). She may have been a bit immature with the patient but that's not a reason for her to deserve being slapped. <br /><br />I personally would slap Meredith for being the shittiest friend Alex has ever had this season. I'm so sick and tired of her treating him so poorly and for him to accept it. Being her person doesn't mean that he has to take her crappy treatment constantly. Meredith has been there for him in the past but never to this extent. And this season it's all about her being the sun and everyone having to bow down to her. The one time Alex needed her with the practice of his speech her research about Maggie was more important. I'm sorry but I can't stand it anymore. Alex Karev solely exists in s11 to support Meredith Grey, even when he's being accused of not believing in her (who didn't believe in him being not good enough for the board, Meredith? Who constantly complained about him not being a good enough person like Cristina was?). <br /><br />I just hope that now that Derek is back we'll see less of Meredith/Alex and more of Alex concentrating on his own relationship. If he still wants to marry Jo he better do something about it soon. I personally wouldn't want to marry him when he's more invested in his friend than me (weirdly enough this only happened this season. Last season he told Jo that they're the only family they need and that they don't need anyome else when Jo was the only one there for him and Meredith was too busy with her stupid fight with Cristina) so I hope that Jo will finally talk to him about that. As an Alex fan I don't like what they're turning him into this season: Meredith's bitch who'll only check up on his upset girlfriend when he's done dealing with Meredith's problems. He was nothing like that in the last two seasons. But at least he's an amazing doctor who fights for his patients (when they give him one once in 10 episodes) and a way too good friend for Meredith who doesn't deserve his friendship anymore IMO.

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Alex has finally fully embraced his role as Meredith's person. It was so sweet to see him hug her while she told him to stop.

I liked the hug but everything that came before drove me nuts. I've always liked Alex and Meredith's friendship, in large part because it always seemed fairly equal. I need it to go back to that because it's so one-sided now it's crazy.

The leech stuff was gross but it was one of the few things I sort of enjoyed. I liked Jo wanting to keep the leech and name it Herbie.

I've always been meh on Owen and hated Owen and Cristina together but at least I understood why they were together in the beginning. Owen and Amelia I don't get at all. It's so rushed and the kissing gets worse and worse.

I don't know what to say about Meredith and Derek. Derek was at his most Derek in the flashbacks. Hate. Meredith is the sun. Hate. I guess they deserve each other.

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Guess that solves the loose end of why a mistress would possibly answer the phone when the wife calls (let alone not play it off with the logical, "I'm a research assistant, he left his phone at the lab"); she answered and hung up with at least the partial intention of sabotaging his marriage.

This is why I join those who hope he mentioned the kissing part. I would not trust that woman to keep quiet about it pretend it never happened.

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This is why I join those who hope he mentioned the kissing part. I would not trust that woman to keep quiet about it pretend it never happened.

 

 Yeah, you have a research assistant who just thinks: "Oh hey, my hot doctor left his keys and phone." "Let me answer it and not speak of who I am because this will guarantee he kisses me again." Really, Stephanie is worthless and now she is bribing and spying on other cases to find a "cool" one. She has no purpose on the show again and its been 11 seasons. Interns and doctors aren't that bored that they need to find cases that are "awesome". This is Seattle Grace/Mercy West/Sloan-Grey Hospital. Earthquakes, plane crashes, paramedics crash into service bays from brain tumors who are secretly nazis, families get in car crashes by going camping in the death of winter for their daughter's 18th birthdays, church buses magically go off road by them and people sneak guns and bombs in all the time. Just wait during sweep months, Steph and you'll want to run back to Oregon saying: "I want to just treat skin knees!" 

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I'm annoyed at the kiss, because I don't think it was necessary - Derek could have had his "come to the sun" moment without it, but it happened, and I don't hate him, so there's that.

 

What I realized while ruminating on this over the past 12+ hours (although to be honest, I was sleeping for at least 7 of those hours) is that this season's focus on Meredith really did a disservice to Derek's character this season (tbh, when does he ever get good character development?) I can fanwank his back story, but what I would have preferred to know about is how much he missed his wife, his children, surgery, about his loneliness, about how hurt he was that Meredith practically shoved him on a plane and how endangered their marriage really was due to issues way beyond his move to D.C., and about the way Amelia treated him by giving him head lacs to fix. I shouldn't have to make crap up in my head to fill in the story.

 

Loved Alex and Meredith's moment - he's turned into a sweet, sweet man. Which means something bad will happen, because he can't stay happy for long.

 

Why is Stephanie on this show anymore? She's a beauty, and the actress is very good, but there's no story there. Speaking of, there's no story for Webber, Hunt, or Bailey either.

 

What a nice show this would be if we could focus on Meredith and Derek, Alex and Jo, my "meh" of the show, Callie and Arizona, Maggie and oh, I'll throw Owen in there I suppose. So many characters have had absolutely nothing at all of interest this season. I'm one of the lucky ones, in that Meredith and Derek are my reason for staying with the show and at least Meredith gets focus with or without Derek, but I don't mind most of the characters and would like to see something materialize that's interesting. Owen's mother and her women's underthings (heh) don't count. Good lord, Owen - underwear? Underpants? Briefs? Depends?

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Why is Stephanie on this show anymore? She's a beauty, and the actress is very good, but there's no story there.

 

 

 Yes and now she has been reduced to the child who wants to play with the older kids who keep shunting her out because they are cooler than her. The brain leech was really pathetic, I mean come on. You have an organism that technically should die from suffocation in a nasal cavity like that and can magically run away when someone tries to grab it. And the woman is more freaked out than an 8 year old who has a tick latched in the base of her neck. Steph... Jackson is married and just lost his first child, no one seems to care about you as a surgeon and the only one who does just found out he has a long lost daughter. Time to call it quits and transfer because no one cares about you. 

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Whatever, show.  

 

That was awful. Season 2 deaja never thought she would say this but I don't care about Derek and Meredith anymore.

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And here is the Mad TV spoof!

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS5KvBdP_NQ

 

Sad fact: I love Mad TV, and I miss the early days of GA, but this spoof was so like the show, I was bored in two minutes. Why am I still watching?

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The brain leech was really pathetic, I mean come on. You have an organism that technically should die from suffocation in a nasal cavity like that and can magically run away when someone tries to grab it.

 

It happened to someone: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29595164

 

he's turned into a sweet, sweet man

Too bad he doesn't get to spend time with the one person that seems to see that - Jo. 

Edited by windsprints
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I, for one, was glad Derek didn't cheat, although I didn't think he pulled away from that kiss all that fast. ha! Anyway, I too thought about how Patrick probably didn't have to do much acting to summon those tears, given what's going on in his real life. Made me sad.

Amelia and Owen have NO chemistry!

I think if I had a critter stuck up my nose, and Jo was my doctor, I'd ask for someone else. April was great in that situation.

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Couldn't they give that poor woman some Valium or a sedative before trying to pull the leech out?  I would have been far more freaked out than that woman was.  And damn, was Jo unprofressional about the whole thing.

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I don't disagree that Owen's mother's relationship was completely unrealistic.  Yeah, Owen does everything for you, but he hasn't met someone you've been dating for 6 months?  I would also be upset if that was one of my parents, but these people lash out at the most inappropriate moments.  They were working on his mother and he's freaking out.

 

It's a drama, but trying to explain that kiss in one episode means there is no development of any kind of flirtation.  He seemed to be really into her research.  I guess he has a really nice smile.  So to this woman (a highly educated research doctor) that means a kiss in the lab and an attempt to sabotage his marriage by answering his phone?  Again, creating dumb / clueless characters for the sake of plot.  Did Derek have to have another woman hit on him to realize he loves his wife?

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Maybe they are saving the "You are my universe, my sun!" for the season finale after Anitam86's zombie apocalypse.

I expect that by then, the Earth will be a hot mess of a place close to Armageddon, so...it could happen.

 

I would not trust that woman to keep quiet about it pretend it never happened.

 

Eh, Renee didn't strike me as the Fatal Attraction kind of woman. Some would actually prefer it to keep it quiet out of embarrassment or actual regret of what she did. Her actions did contribute to make Derek leave a major project, so perhaps she would choose to not say anything. I don't know but I really don't believe that IF Derek didn't tell Meredith about the kiss (which I think that he actually did) Renee would call Meredith and be all like "hey, I made out for like 3 seconds with your husband". 

 

Owen snapping at Amelia was just one more sign that he is not ready to be with someone.

 

 

Since this is not new to Owen, I doubt that he'll ever be ready to be with anyone. He snaps at everyone. Punches patients when he can't calm them down. It's his MO. 

 

Speaking of professionalism - Is this how Derek leaves a job where he was basically appointed by the President? Just runs off still wearing his lab coat and never returns? How professional. No resignation, allow them time to find a replacement, hand off to the next person, etc. Nope. Just "oops I kissed someone, realized I wanted to go back to my family, gotta go". 

In the end I am thrilled Derek is back because can he please take Meredith now?

Has this show ever been professional? I mean, in the promo it looks like nobody told Owen, Derek was even back. And Owen is the CoS. But yeah, that also annoyed me. 

 

LOL, no he won't because the sun still gets to do what she wants! It's the whole thing of being the sun. You get to do what you want without consideration of others. 

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However, I wonder if the reaction would have been the same had it been thatcher with the woman younger than Meredith.

Wow, I forgot about Thatcher and the younger woman.

More recycled storytelling!

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Since this is not new to Owen, I doubt that he'll ever be ready to be with anyone. He snaps at everyone. Punches patients when he can't calm them down. It's his MO.

They should honestly just make him a single dad. That's what he really wants. Shonda always blathers on about being groundbreaking/modern family crap, so what's better than that?

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He told her. That's why she was so pissed off. Everything we saw was her remembering throughout the day.

I'm not 100% sure. Their conversation in the morning left some room for doubt, I think. "She's your research fellow?" "And that's it?" "I want to believe you." Hard to say whether he actually told her, and what she wants to believe is that a kiss is all that happened, or whether she merely suspects enough to be upset even if, as far as he's said anything, nothing actually happened, and that's what she wants to believe.

 

Did Derek have to have another woman hit on him to realize he loves his wife?

This doesn't necessarily have to be read as a realization that he loves his wife. I don't think that was ever in question. However, I always kind of appreciate the acknowledgement that people are human, and that being in love doesn't actually stop you from being attracted to other people, and that being so far removed from one's spouse does leave one vulnerable to temptation, so I could see this as a catalyst. Not to the realization that he loves his wife, but to the realization that if they stay apart, something could very easily happen that would likely be even more damaging to the relationship than the mere physical separation that has clearly already been putting some strain on it. And I think it's very easy to think of yourself as someone who wouldn't do that until it's basically offered to you, and you realize how easily you could become someone who would do that, which is what inspired him to remove himself from the temptation and come home.

 

Eh, Renee didn't strike me as the Fatal Attraction kind of woman.

Maybe not quite to that extent, but her face when she noticed his phone was less "Oh no, he might need that," and more "Hm... If it rings, I could answer it and cause some drama." Which, of course, she did, whether intentionally or not. I could see her just being so flustered after what had just happened that she wouldn't know what to say, but that face makes me less inclined to give her too much benefit of the doubt.

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Maybe not quite to that extent, but her face when she noticed his phone was less "Oh no, he might need that," and more "Hm... If it rings, I could answer it and cause some drama." Which, of course, she did, whether intentionally or not. I could see her just being so flustered after what had just happened that she wouldn't know what to say, but that face makes me less inclined to give her too much benefit of the doubt.

 

 

 That's my take away too. She could cause drama and her not answer after Meredith asked who it was was all that was needed. After all, she is the Sun and how dare a rogue planet come into her orbit.

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They should honestly just make him a single dad

This would be great, so that we can kill the "I want a baby SL" with fire forever and ever. I am about 100000% done with his "Woman. Family. Baby." in need SL.

 

what she wants to believe is that a kiss is all that happened, or whether she merely suspects enough to be upset even if, as far as he's said anything,

 

I believe that given their prior history, she might be inclined to believe that this is the new resident that hot for teacher. In other words, that this fellow might just be the new Meredith. For me, it seemed that she just wanted to clarify that A) he did not have sex with her and B) she isn't the new intern who fell in love with the Attending when the Attending left his home because of or with marital troubles (which in both cases, Derek did and had). Obviously, Meredith might not be inclined to believe him at first (he never told Addison he was in a new relationship, he didn't tell Meredith he was married), which is understandable but given how it all went, I do believe he did tell her. 

 

Not to the realization that he loves his wife, but to the realization that if they stay apart, something could very easily happen that would likely be even more damaging to the relationship than the mere physical separation that has clearly already been putting some strain on it.

This is pretty much what it felt to me, too. I don't believe it was to question his love for his wife but to awaken him to his current situation of how fragile his marriage was. I mean, Meredith chose to go to a hotel for a weekend without telling him. Derek seemed to have been working to the wee hours and allowed a 3 second kiss to happen. There was something wrong and obviously Derek got awaken and terrified enough to realize this and go home. Meredith had clearly not realized this until he came clean. 

 

Re: answering the call, did Renee know who Meredith was? I mean, Derek clearly was being an uptight professional to be the guy showing pictures of his family to the residents. And yes, she had to answer because otherwise how the hell would they have promoted the show for three weeks in row? With normal promos? Pff.

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And as many people have already pointed out, it seems perfectly acceptable when the older party is male and the younger party is female.

 

Nah, it's just as sketchy and weird when the genders are reversed. When a woman in her 30s is dating a guy close to 70, she's likely a gold digger and/or has severe daddy issues. Owen's mom and her boyfriend were just beyond weird. She's an elderly lady, he's a man around 30. In real life, he'd be a gigolo.

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Of course MerDer were going to be fine. However, I did not appreciate Derek kissing the woman, or the woman kissing him, whichever. Is that stuff really necessary on this show? Did Derek need that to realize how in love he is with Meredith and that he'll do anything to prove it to her? This show is running out of ideas as to how to drum up compelling drama and conflict. 

 

I really really disliked this storyline.  To begin with, I really disliked the woman.  I don't like that they took a woman with super-model looks, "uglied her up", then dressed her like a secretary out of the 1950s.  Even when he wakes her in the middle of the night, there she is with her bun, pencil skirt, and blouse.  She's every man's fantasy of sexually repressed librarian or school teacher.  She's going to climb up on the counter, shake out her hair, and rip of her glasses (the one thing they missed in this stereotype).  I think the writers must have loved Van Halen's Hot for Teacher video.

 

Guess that solves the loose end of why a mistress would possibly answer the phone when the wife calls (let alone not play it off with the logical, "I'm a research assistant, he left his phone at the lab"); she answered and hung up with at least the partial intention of sabotaging his marriage.

 

Her behavior at the end seemed out of character to how she was through most of the episode.  She seemed very self-controlled, reserved, and extremely proper.  This continues through her exclaiming about wanting to kiss him, then stuttering how she wouldn't and backing off.  One minute later, she practically backs him up against the wall and lays one on him.  Then the whole mess about - I know you feel it too - which lets her somewhat of the hook, as well as telling him what he's thinking and feeling.  Perhaps if this woman was very like Addison or Meredith I cold buy his attraction, but she was nothing like any other woman we've seen him attracted to.  I do NOT want to see this woman again.

 

And by the way, he didn't protest too much.  He also responded to the kiss.  I do think the woman deliberately answered the phone to cause trouble.  Derek's phone would at least have Meredith's name, if not some cutesy nickname (my friend has "Baby Daddy" on her phone - puke!).  I also believe that Derek would have a passcode for his phone.  Hopefully she's not going to become a stalker, because it would be very easy for her.  She has his phone with his entire list of contacts, and possibly his schedule.

 

My last comment on this subject - I agree that Derek better have told Meredith about the kiss.  He crossed the line, and he didn't stop her from kissing him.  I can only imagine the comments here if it was Meredith who kissed someone.  I'm already reading comments like - I don't blame Derek with the way Meredith treats him.

 

Loved Alex and Meredith's moment - he's turned into a sweet, sweet man. Which means something bad will happen, because he can't stay happy for long.

 

I surprised myself by tearing up.  Most likely because I'm currently marathoning old seasons, and I'm right at Alex spilling the beans on the Alzheimer's study, and Meredith throwing him out of the house.

 

Meredith couldn't live without him when he was shot ("I can't live without you, if you die, I die"), and told him so, but now? Eh. Not so much.

 

I think everything changes when you have children.  If you lose your spouse, you still have to go on for your children.

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I have to say, I was really confused by the timeline of this episode.  Did Derek tell Meredith about the woman/kiss that morning when he first got home?  When she got home and the end of the day (he said "wait") before the big speech.  Did he even tell her at all?  Were those MerDer moment flashbacks of Meredith's or Derek's?  I first thought they were Meredith's, thinking of all their time together but after re-thinking, I thought maybe they were Derek's when he was telling the story.  Does anyone have a good grasp on the timeline here?  Were we intentionally supposed to be confused?  i am so full of questions I can't even comment on anything else that went on.  

 

Edit to add my second question: I am also confused by what Derek was actually doing in DC.  Wasn't he supposed to working on Brain mapping for the President?  Why did he have a team of fellows/residents under him that had their own research going on?  I am nowhere near a scientists so I don't know if Renee's autism study had anything to do with brain mapping.  

Edited by Greysaddict

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I believe he told her everything, otherwise why would she be so hurt and angry? I think the flashbacks were to inform the viewers and to show what Meredith was going through the entire day - hearing about her husband being interested in someone's work, calling Renee at 1 a.m. to come look at what he discovered, hearing about the kiss, and then the knowledge of Derek leaving and Renee answering the phone.

 

He would not lie and then tell her he told her everything, would go through it again with her, and hoping against hope that she would forgive him.

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Wasn't he supposed to working on Brain mapping for the President?  Why did he have a team of fellows/residents under him that had their own research going on?  I am nowhere near a scientists so I don't know if Renee's autism study had anything to do with brain mapping.

The end goal for the BRAIN Initiative is the ability to cure or treat in a more effective manner, brain-related illnesses by mapping and understanding the brain better. Autism is a brain-related condition, so her choice to find a cure for autism, kind of makes sense with what the Initiative is trying to accomplish. I'm guessing most of these fellows did have some sort of study before being picked by the NIH to participate, as it's also a collaboration of ideas. I took this from the NIH site that had the description of the initiative:

 

"Given the ambitious scope of this pioneering endeavor, it was vital that planning be informed by a wide range of expertise and experience. Therefore, NIH established a high level working group of the Advisory Committee to the NIH Director (ACD) to help shape this new initiative. This working group, co-chaired by Dr. Cornelia “Cori” Bargmann (The Rockefeller University) and Dr. William Newsome (Stanford University) sought broad input from the scientific community, patient advocates, and the general public. Their report, released in June 2014 and enthusiastically endorsed by the ACD, articulated the scientific goals of the BRAIN Initiative and developed a multi-year scientific plan for achieving these goals, including timetables, milestones, and cost estimates.

 

Of course, a goal this audacious will require ideas from the best scientists and engineers across many diverse disciplines and sectors. Therefore, NIH is working in close collaboration with other government agencies, including the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), National Science Foundation (NSF), the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity (IARPA). Private partners are also committed to ensuring success through investment in the BRAIN Initiative."

 

I always assumed that Derek was a part of the Committee (as he said it was THE job running the whole thing) and I assume that Renee is one of the fellows that's collaborating from another institution. I don't konw, this show makes up shit as they go.

 

Did he even tell her at all?  Were those MerDer moment flashbacks of Meredith's or Derek's?

He must have as they were both up all night and I'm guessing it was Meredith reliving what Derek told her. Pretty sure the show wanted to leave this vague on purpose but I don't find coherent Derek having the flashbacks when we only saw them while Meredith was in the scene. 

 

I'm already reading comments like - I don't blame Derek with the way Meredith treats him.

 

Well, when she treats her husband like a second-class citizen that's supposed to revolve around her, I kind of can't fully hang Derek by the balls. This is not excusing his behavior (because he could've left when she grabbed his hand, dude isn't mentally challenged and knew where it was going) but I don't exonerate Meredith's role on it. You can't expect to have an 100% devoted husband while she goes drinking with her friends after he had a really terrible day or while his best friend from his childhood dies. A little comfort is expected. 

 

Derek's far from a saint, but I don't assume that because he was the one to make the screw up, that past issues didn't get him to where he is. It's all I'm saying. 

Edited by AnitaM86
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