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ElectricBoogaloo

S01.E09: Tomorrow

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Wow.  And Wower.!  This show just keeps getting better and better.  I am so happy that it has been renewed for a second season.  This is probably my favorite SciFi show in years.

 

I was getting Terminator Flashbacks  during the scene where Jones invaded the other compound.  You are all already dead.  It doesn't matter if I cill toy.  Speak of....Don't you just hate those awkward moments when you are having a perfectly pleasant conversation and someone pulls a gun?

 

I was pretty sure Ramse's girlfriend was going to rat him out.  I mean really, "So hun.  We are going to attack this place and kill everyone but I am going to save you.   Don't tell,  m'kay. "  Still I like her and her son and the last scene between Cole and Ramse was heartbreaking.  It was also fun to see how Cole and Ramse hooked up with Jones in the first place.

 

Most importantly the scenes between Cassie and Cole were very well done and heartbreaking.  I love these two together.  I might just be reaching shipper territory.  IT was both sad and beautiful.  I guess I always knew Cassie dies in the end but to see it happen......

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When did Cole scratch Cassie's watch? And does the watch repairing itself mean they never met? And if Cassie dies in 2017, is the show only planning in three seasons?

Edited to ask: Is the red tree sap from Helix in the red forest from 12 Monkeys? 

Edited by Rhetorica
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When Ramses first goes to his gf he tells her that her leader is wrong, there is no cure & that Jones is right. Later on, after she tells him that he's wrong, whathisname did have a cure, he suddenly decides that Jones is wrong & that there is a cure. I don't recall the gf offering up any convincing evidence of there being a cure nor did I understand why he believed in Jones at first. Where/what is his proof of either theory? Or did I miss something?

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Maybe they cut a scene where Ramse found that burnt virus picture? Yeah I was confused too - I thought my streaming messed something up. I loved Cassie and Cole's reunion and got a bit misty when she died. But she never left the message where she said Cole's name! Could that have happened at some other point in 2017? I loved this episode but I got a giggle over Cassie's grey streak. "Things got dark, Jeff!"

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When did Cole scratch Cassie's watch? And does the watch repairing itself mean they never met? And if Cassie dies in 2017, is the show only planning in three seasons?

 

Cole scratched Cassie's watch in the first episode to demonstrate that he had her watch from the future.

 

With the scratch removing from the watch, does this mean that when Cole goes back to 2015 he changes something significant ?  Another branch of the Multi-verse ?  I'll have to think about this some more.

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Well, that sure went dark.  Foster actually did have a cure, but Jones is so hell bent on bringing her daughter back to life, that she straight up murders him and about half of Spearhead.  It wasn't even just soldiers; pretty sure they were gunning down unarmed scientists.  Insane.  Jones kind of scares me now.

 

And now it seems like Ramse believes his ex (not sure why, but whatever), so he's pissed and between that and his son, it sounds like he doesn't want time to go back, so it looks like they're setting up as Cole vs. Ramse scenario.  While I thought Aaron Stanford and Kirk Acevedo were great in that confrontation, I'm bummed that this seems to be the end of the Cole/Ramse duo.  At least we got a flashback and saw how they stumbled into Jones and the project in the first place.

 

This show would totally go all the way, and actually have Cassie "die" in Cole's arms.  Knew it was coming, but it was still a powerful moment from both Aaron and Amanda Schull.  I really do love Cole/Cassie, which is rare for me when it comes to most shows.

 

Glad to see Jennifer is still around, being as nutty as always, even when the plague is around.  Loved all the "WTF?" reaction shots from her "audience."

 

Next week looks insane: 

unless there is some major misdirect/editing going on, Ramse and Cassie might meet?

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At least we got a flashback and saw how they stumbled into Jones and the project in the first place.

 

I thought it was interesting that Ramse convinced Cole to stay with Jones' program in 2041, and now Cole can't convince Ramse to stay.

 

Glad to see Jennifer is still around, being as nutty as always, even when the plague is around.  Loved all the "WTF?" reaction shots from her "audience."

 

However, Jennifer was dropping words like 'monkey' and '12', so I'm curious to see where that's leading.  Maybe Jennifer Goines is the Witness.

Edited by ottoDbusdriver
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ETA: That has to be one of the best death-by-gunshot-by-acquaintance scenes ever! His befuddlement at her shooting him was par excellence. And then followed by her telling him casually that she would see him again? Everything is better with time travel.

When Ramses first goes to his gf he tells her that her leader is wrong, there is no cure & that Jones is right. Later on, after she tells him that he's wrong, whathisname did have a cure, he suddenly decides that Jones is wrong & that there is a cure. I don't recall the gf offering up any convincing evidence of there being a cure nor did I understand why he believed in Jones at first. Where/what is his proof of either theory? Or did I miss something?

Maybe they cut a scene where Ramse found that burnt virus picture? Yeah I was confused too...

From what I saw (what we all saw), it just seemed that Helena managed to convince Ramse of what she had seen. But they were in a file room when Ramse got cuffed, so maybe they found a copy of a file like the one we saw Jones burning. IDK. Anyway, a picture labeled "cure" isn't much proof.

When Cole came Back to the Future and Jones put her hand on his face, I was wondering again if she was Cassie. But maybe--Dun de dun dUN....--Cole was just the father of Jones' daughter! Maybe he got her pregnant in the past, and that's why she said in this episode that she just "knew" that he was the right "Cole."

Or...maybe Jones' daughter is really Cassie and Cole's daughter, and Jones' adopted her as an orphan. A lot can happen in 2 years, as Cassie pointed out.

I'm guessing Aaron dies early of the plague.

Okay. I'll stop now.

So glad it's renewed!

Edited by shapeshifter

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Thuganomics, how do we know Foster (thanks for the name!) actually did have a cure? Did I miss some proof/evidence?

 

When Jones went throught the rest of the facility with her soldiers my screen was too dark to make out much detail - was she shooting everyone? Or just security and/or doctors?

 

Jennifer kind of creeps me out because she always looks to me like Cassie with a dark wig on, acting all wigged out, so to speak. A few of these actresses look like variations of the same person. Like Dr. Jones also looking like an older Cassie.

 

Why was Jones burning the virus pictures?

 

Cole & Cassie have such good chemistry, I don't want him to be her father or brother or related in any way. Wasn't Jones' daugher's name Hanna? Or was that the name of Foster's wife? She looked at the daughter's picture in her locket, but again, my screen was too dark to make out any details.

Edited by kat165

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Thuganomics, how do we know Foster (thanks for the name!) actually did have a cure? Did I miss some proof/evidence?...

Why was Jones burning the virus pictures?

I don't know if Thugo will answer differently, but to me, having the camera zoom in on Jones secretly burning the picture labeled "virus cured" implies that she was destroying evidence of the cure. But it's still possible she was just destroying propaganda--although that seems unlikely since there was just one picture.

 

...Cole & Cassie have such good chemistry, I don't want him to be her father or brother or related in any way. Wasn't Jones' daugher's name Hanna? Or was that the name of Foster's wife? She looked at the daughter's picture in her locket, but again, my screen was too dark to make out any details.

You mean you don't want Cole to be her son, right? Or maybe you do mean father, but he'd have to travel back to the 1990s and impregnate Cassie's mother.

I suppose, given enough seasons, that could happen, but it would be more fun to have him be Ramse's father.

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but to me, having the camera zoom in on Jones secretly burning the picture labeled "virus cured" implies that she was destroying evidence of the cure. But it's still possible she was just destroying propaganda--although that seems unlikely since there was just one picture.

Yeah, that's what my assumption was.  I could end up being totally wrong, but I thought it was to show that Foster really was onto the cure, but Jones is keeping it from everyone.

 

I do think that, if this is the path they are going, they should have given more evidence for Ramse to see, to by him going full-blown Anti-Jones.  I also wonder if maybe something was cut.

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Great episode! Something I noticed, when Jones played the recording of Cassie for Cole and Ramse, there is a part where Cassie says "among you already" or something like that. Now last week I noticed the older scientist working with Jones was played by the actor who played Rachel's father on Orphan Black, in other words, a bigger name actor. So tonight when I heard that line in the Cassie recording and later in the episode that scientist guy hands Jones some papers or something and says something about "there never could be a cure" or something my spidey sense started tingling, maybe Im putting two unrelated things together but I think THAT guy is one of the 12 monkeys, in the future, working at cross purposes to Jones and Cole.

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Jones is an absolute fanatic about HER solution working.   Yeah, okay, you're a mother.    Nice.   So that justifies killing someone working on a cure?  Guess what?   Ramses is a dad now.   Deal with that Jonesy.

 

Maybe the virus will keep mutating until everyone is dead.   Or maybe it won't.    But thanks to Jones' single mindedess that avenue is pretty much shut down for now. 

 

Cassie dies in Cole's arms.   Just no words.   Can't even be cutesy and talk about dusty rooms.   That is how good this show is.   

 

Then Cole goes back to 2041 more determined than ever to step the virus from happening and his good buddy - who talked him into the mission in the first place -- is all, yeah I think cure might be the path not time travel.   Say what?   

 

Sorting this out is going to be AWESOME (provided the writers really have a vision where they are going and aren't just making it up as they go along.)

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Jones is an absolute fanatic about HER solution working.   Yeah, okay, you're a mother.    Nice.   So that justifies killing someone working on a cure?  Guess what?   Ramses is a dad now.   Deal with that Jonesy....

If my speculation that her daughter is Cole's daughter--maybe the daughter has an immunity factor crucial to making a "real" vaccine...

Sorry, this is one of the reasons why I love time travel stories: The possible outcomes increase exponentially.

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I feel like I missed something, but don't have time to rewatch the episode.  Why exactly was the plan to return to 2017 with the cure tossed out?  I mean, I'm assuming someone mentioned that plan?  Or did I not miss anything and it was never even discussed?

 

 

Jennifer kind of creeps me out because she always looks to me like Cassie with a dark wig on, acting all wigged out, so to speak. A few of these actresses look like variations of the same person. Like Dr. Jones also looking like an older Cassie.

 

Every time Jennifer is on screen, I have to do an IMDB search to remind myself that she and Cassie aren't the same actress.  They look eerily similar.  

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I noticed when Jones was explaining the mission to Cole after she had captured him she said if you're successful then all this goes away, "and you and I start fresh". I don't recall hearing that last part before. I had the impression that the result would be that they never would have been born. Start fresh makes more sense logically than never existed, but I wonder if that's a change or if I'm just remembering stuff wrong.

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I feel like I missed something, but don't have time to rewatch the episode.  Why exactly was the plan to return to 2017 with the cure tossed out?  I mean, I'm assuming someone mentioned that plan?  Or did I not miss anything and it was never even discussed?...

No, you didn't miss it, and we haven't discussed it here yet either, although I was thinking the same thing.

So. Discussing here:

Why can't the 2 egomaniacs work together and take the cure back in the time machine?

Foster (Xander Berkeley's character) didn't believe the time machine worked. Didn't Jones only shoot him after he refused to go see it?

Still, assuming Foster really did have a cure, and assuming Jones believed he had a cure, why would she not want to send it back even after shooting him?

I'm guessing it would somehow prevent her daughter from being born.

Do we know when her daughter was born and when she died? Maybe stopping the virus after it started was too late for her to survive?

Possibly related, why does dying Cassie tell Cole to keep the address on the paper to himself and presumably not tell Jones, Ramse, Aaron, etc.?

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When she called him James the oddest thing happened.  Ninjas broke into my apartment and started just chopping onions all over the place.  It was weird and sad...because of the onion waste.

 

Did Cassie get the face of her watch fixed?  It would be interesting if she did so that when Cole found her body in the future...again...he would have it to scratch in the past.  Or something?  Time Travel madness!

 

 

Why can't the 2 egomaniacs work together and take the cure back in the time machine?

 

It would be the cure to the mutated strain of the virus right?  Can you create a vaccine from the mutated virus to the original strain?  The extent of my knowledge in this is the movie Outbreak and they could not. Or maybe they didn't have the time.  I always think "Motaba!" when they show a picture of the virus on this show.  I know nothing.

 

 

Start fresh makes more sense logically than never existed, but I wonder if that's a change or if I'm just remembering stuff wrong.

 

When Cole has always said in the past that if they succeed then he would disappear I always too it as this version of him.  Who he is in the virus ravaged future.  His fate would be different.  I had this long thing about what would the history be with Cassie/Cole if they succeeded but it is way too late and it's just giving me a headache.  I could never be a Krenim.

 

I'm going to need more evidence that they actually cured the virus.  I can't just believe one picture but he was a fanatic as much as Jones.  They're pretty much the same people with different agendas on how to deal with the virus. Anyway, I'm not saying that I don't think it's possible that they found a cure but I would really need more evidence than a picture.  And if they did find a cure did they just find it that day?  Or week?  Why wasn't it announced in some fashion.  Why was it kept a secret?  I guess it's possible that they didn't want to be overrun with desperate people which is surely what would happen if they said "Hey ya'll.  We got the cure!"  But I still need more. I hope they touch on it in the future.  I trust Foster as much as I trust Jones. 

 

To be quite honest, I understand Ramses' position that his son wouldn't exist if they do succeed and he's been leaning toward making this world worth living in than playing in the past lately.  BUT, I really don't care about his son or his girlfriend.  They've just appeared and I'm sorry but I'm already invested in other people.  I do enjoy that they are bringing this issue up but the future storyline isn't the main reason I watch the show.  If they followed Ramses there wouldn't be a show anymore so sorry dude.  Your son has got to go or at least until the show's over and they pull a Terminator of just delaying the future but never stopping the event from happening.

 

As each of them are becoming more connected to the past (Cole) and the present (Ramses) their reasons for their actions are becoming more personal and selfish.  What I like most about it from the Ramses/Cole angle is I get where they're both coming from and they're basically saying the same thing to each other.  You have to sacrifice this so that I can have that.

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...Did Cassie get the face of her watch fixed?  It would be interesting if she did so that when Cole found her body in the future...again...he would have it to scratch in the past.  Or something?  Time Travel madness!....
I assumed the disappearing scratch meant that when she gave him the paper with the address, he no longer meets her in 2013--if that make sense.

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I agree that both Jones and Ramse are selfish for wanting to do things their way for the sake of one person (Hanna and Sam? Is that his kid's name?). As Cole said earlier in the season, "One life for millions? I can live with that." And Cole may care about Cassie but he knows the bigger picture is the mission, saving millions of people from dying and preventing this bleak future of scabs and survival. If they stop the plague from ever happening, at the very least the world won't be as bad as what they have lived through. It might not be a paradise but it won't be survivors scavenging and killing after they steal what little they have 24/7.

 

There was a lot of nice juxtaposition and transitions in this episode, like Cassie lying on the floor and then cutting to a bunch of dead Spearhead people on the ground. I was convinced that the flashback of Ramse shooting the gun in 2041 to save Cole's soul was going to be bookended with Ramse shooting the machine (or Cole) to save his son. I would have felt better about that last scene between Cole and Ramse if Ramse had told him to stop because all the splintering was going to kill him without saving the world, but instead it was all about saving his kid who he just met (which is giving me shades of Katrina doing everything to save Henry on Sleepy Hollow).

 

So now Cassie has had to say goodbye to Cole knowing that he was going to die and Cole has had to watch Cassie die in front of him. These two have suffered so much trying to do the right thing.

 

When Cassie said so much had happened in the last two years, I wondered if they hooked up and Cassie had a kid who inherited Cole's immunity (and the address would lead him to the kid). If that's true, then the kid would be 26-28 years old in 2043.

 

Part of me was impressed with Jones marching through Spearhead like a boss but the other part of me was like dude, you're just killing everyone in sight? Holy crap.

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The virus that James discovered the cure for was the 2033 mutation of the 2017 virus.   Sending that cure back to 2017 won't do anything.   Jones said when she was explaining why they had to take the other core was that the virus was a COMPLETELY different organism when it mutated.   Now that might not be true.   But I can believe that a cure for one version won't work on another version of the same disease.

 

It's like the flu shot this year.   They thought it would be the A strain so that is what they put in the shot.   But it turned out that the B strain showed up this year so the shot isn't as effective.

 

When dealing with a virus that can kill millions, have a less effective shot still means millions die and it still mutates to take out the rest.   And if you use the 2033 cure on the 2017 because it is at least somewhat effective, it might not mutate the same way and then you get a new virus with no cure.

 

As for not announcing the cure, unless you got doses enough for everybody already manufactured, you don't want to announce it.   Especially in a world where people are quite used to taking what they want instead of waiting patenitly until more doses are made.

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I agree that both Jones and Ramse are selfish for wanting to do things their way for the sake of one person (Hanna and Sam? Is that his kid's name?). As Cole said earlier in the season, "One life for millions? I can live with that." And Cole may care about Cassie but he knows the bigger picture is the mission, saving millions of people from dying and preventing this bleak future of scabs and survival....

I think this may have been the first episode (?) in which the stakes changed from "one life for millions" to "one life for the survival of anyone," and not just because of the likelihood that the remaining people would kill each other, but because the virus was mutating to the point of extinction of the human race.

I don't know why they couldn't survive in bunkers until it passes. It seems that with so few people left, there would be plenty of bunker-type facilities to go around. Maybe it will turn out that everyone is a carrier and the mutation happens within the carriers over time or something.

...As for not announcing the cure, unless you got doses enough for everybody already manufactured, you don't want to announce it.   Especially in a world where people are quite used to taking what they want instead of waiting patenitly until more doses are made.

The scene with angry mobs seemed to hammer home the futility of orderly vaccination, even after any anti-vaccination groups had died off.

I guess this points to the necessity of using the time machine to prevent the release of the virus.

And we won't even consider that there would likely be another deadly virus out there.

Edited by shapeshifter

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I liked this one better than the previous. 

 

I did guess Ramse's plot purpose last week, so his conflict with Cole felt rather predictable, but I don't mind. I still don't really care about Ramse (and especially bland Elena and the kid) as much as the show wants me to, obviously. I never really liked Charlie Francis on Fringe, too - I wonder if it's the actor's fault? But probably the writing. I just find Cassandra and Cole and their relationship so intense and  compelling that everything else pales compared to that.

 

Well, maybe except Jennifer, who's the best (thrilled about her promotion to the main cast!) and sometimes Jones, although I'm VERY disappointed about her motivation. I had hoped she wanted more. Well, she does want more, but it's clear her kid is the catalyst and #1 priority, and it just... Doesn't feel as epic, I dunno. I hoped she was a ruthless visionary, to contrast both Cole's casual pragmatism and Ramse's idealism. Oh well.

 

At least I got an absolutely soul-crushing scene of Cassie dying in Cole's arms. Have to say, I don't know how the writers are going to solve this time travel mystery. If it turns out it's possible to change the future, I will be disappointed - too simple. If not... Cassie dies. So, there should totally be the third option - but I have no idea if they'll be able to do it in a way that makes sense. We'll see, I suppose.

Edited by FurryFury
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Cole scratched Cassie's watch in the first episode to demonstrate that he had her watch from the future.

With the scratch removing from the watch, does this mean that when Cole goes back to 2015 he changes something significant ? Another branch of the Multi-verse ? I'll have to think about this some more.

I figured the scratch being removed was the result of some sort of timey wimey loop.

The watch had to be unscratched so Cole could find it in the future and go back to 2013 and scratch it in front of Cassie to prove he was a time traveler. Though that would seem to imply that the future can't be changed and Cassie is doomed to die. Time travel gives me a headache though so who knows.

When Cole came Back to the Future and Jones put her hand on his face, I was wondering again if she was Cassie. But maybe--Dun de dun dUN....--Cole was just the father of Jones' daughter! Maybe he got her pregnant in the past, and that's why she said in this episode that she just "knew" that he was the right "Cole."

Eww. I do think Cole will see Jones in the past at some point or she'll see him and that's why she's so sure. I hope they don't "see" each other though. That would be too weird.

I noticed when Jones was explaining the mission to Cole after she had captured him she said if you're successful then all this goes away, "and you and I start fresh". I don't recall hearing that last part before. I had the impression that the result would be that they never would have been born. Start fresh makes more sense logically than never existed, but I wonder if that's a change or if I'm just remembering stuff wrong.

They've touched on it a little before like the Cassie and Cole Florida Keys conversation where Cassie asked what he thought would happen if he were erased, and he said something like hoping for a "better me in a better place." As long as they were born before the virus they shouldn't cease to exist, just lead different lives, I think.

I'm going to need more evidence that they actually cured the virus. I can't just believe one picture but he was a fanatic as much as Jones. They're pretty much the same people with different agendas on how to deal with the virus. Anyway, I'm not saying that I don't think it's possible that they found a cure but I would really need more evidence than a picture. And if they did find a cure did they just find it that day? Or week? Why wasn't it announced in some fashion. Why was it kept a secret? I guess it's possible that they didn't want to be overrun with desperate people which is surely what would happen if they said "Hey ya'll. We got the cure!" But I still need more. I hope they touch on it in the future. I trust Foster as much as I trust Jones.

I wonder how much time passed between Jones and Foster's two meetings. It didn't seem like much. In the first, Foster said he was close to finding a cure for all future mutations of the virus. If he found it, why not tell Jones. Not that it would have stopped her but still.

When Cassie said so much had happened in the last two years, I wondered if they hooked up and Cassie had a kid who inherited Cole's immunity (and the address would lead him to the kid). If that's true, then the kid would be 26-28 years old in 2043.

That's an interesting thought. When she kept calling him James, I definitely thought they might have gotten romantic. Edited by Evie
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I'm not really hugely knowledgable about vaccines or 'cures', but I would think that the youngish people in 2043 wouldn't be either.  I get why Jones didn't suggest using the time machine to deliver a vaccine (she wants her kid) and I get why Foster didn't suggest it (he doesn't believe and he's a cult leader).  I just don't get why one single person did not ask about sending the cure back in time.  Maybe they only stop the 2033 die out.  Maybe someone like Cassie can use the 2033 cure to figure out the 2017 cure.  Maybe that's just not how medicine works.  In any case, it just didn't feel right that no character brought up the idea of sending the cure info with Cole through the machine.  

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So I was watching this after coming home after a long night out and I didn't realized that the watch healed itself when Cole splintered.  I was just like hey look she got her watch fixed.  Do not watch this show if you're not all mentally there.

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In any case, it just didn't feel right that no character brought up the idea of sending the cure info with Cole through the machine.

 

My take has been that in the [science of how things work according to this show]* the virus keeps mutating no matter what, so it can't be stopped unless it's not let out of Pandora's box in the first place. 

 

* there's a word for this but I can't call it up right now. The science probably doesn't conform to reality but it's consistent within the 12 Monkeys universe. Yes, it would keep mutating in real life, too - all things do - but they seem to have a goofy version of it going on with respect to this virus. At least as I understand it, the show's theory of how the virus works means it would be futile to try to stop things once it's already unleashed on the world. 

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About the cure:  I get that the virus is mutating, but why not match the time traveling with the cure?  In other words, send Cole back to 2033 with the 2033 cure and wipe out the virus.  Or, is the splintering not that precise?

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Thanks, Shapeshifter. Just because the pic is labeled "virus cure" doesn't mean that it is, or isn't. I would like to know her reason(s) for burning it either way. I can see where a prop pic might cause trouble with her followers if they see it. How does she know or not
know whether it's true or not.

 

Yes, I don't want Cole to be her son, but mostly I don't want her to be related to him in any way. My math is very bad, especially off the top of my head so whether it's feasible time wise or not I wasn't thinking of that. I just don't want them to be related. I like their
chemistry too much. I'm not into romance in my shows at all, but I do like their chemistry. I was relieved to see that so far Aaron won't add to any three way bullshit.

 

It would be interesting if he was Ramses's father, but I can't see that. Do we have enough time for that? What year do you think Cole was born?

 

Thanks, Thugo. Although a pic labeled "cure" is pretty cheesy "proof."

 

Yeah, I agree, I think Ramses needed more evidence to make him anti-Jones. As it stands now I'm just not convinved, how can he be? And yeah, maybe something was cut. Something is definitely missing though.

 

Diebartdie, great idea! I'm a huge fan of Orphan Black and I didn't notice that actor at all. Then again, my screen is so dark I think I'm missing out on a lot of subtleties.

 

Thinking on Ramses he's been back and forth on Jones a lot. As we saw last night. trying to talk Cole into staying with her whereas previously we saw him try to talk Cole out of traveling further, then again in last night's ep being for Jones' theft of the core and then

a bit later anti-Jones.

 

I'd love to see that actor be part of the 12 Monkeys because I really liked him in Orphan Black (But I guess not enough though to remember his or his character's name!).

 

What did we know about Cassie's death before seeing it last night? Did she die when/where we heard that she did? ANd did Jones' know he'd been there and didn't tell him? She obviously knew something about COle before she started sending him traveling. What did she know and how much?

 

I hope the writers aren't making this up as they go along. That would suck.

 

Bluebonnet, I don't recall them mentioning sending Cole back to 2017 with the cure. Or if they did perhaps doing so would interfer with Jones' ultimate plan. And yes, that's why Jennifer creeps me out. She's so much like Cassie with a dark wig.

 

IF Jones' plan goes her way I don't recall her ever saying that she would disappear, so she's not saying anything different about herself. However, I think she has told Cole that he would cease to exist. But for a good cause. So maybe last night's speech about both of them starting fresh was just a slipup on her part. Or bs. I think she would have been born, just maybe not Cole. How old is he anyway?

 

Dusty, I don't care about Ramses' son/gf either. I don't like the actress who plays the gf and both characters just seem like filler to make the story longer. Although I do enjoy seeing more Kirk on my screen.

 

Cassie, as she's dying, calls COle "James" instead of Cole which to me implies that they'd gotten closer during those 2 years, but I hope there's no spawn.

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FWIW, I don't read any of the characters on the show as related. I was suspicious of Jones being so similar to Cassie, look-wise, but now I think it was just a coincidence. 

 

What I'm really afraid of is Cassie and Cole having a "special" child - a trope I've never ever seen realized well. Please, show, don't do it. Ever. Which doesn't mean I don't want them to hook up - I think it was obvious since the pilot they will, at some point. Hopefully later rather than sooner, though.

 

I hope the writers aren't making this up as they go along. That would suck.

 

They've likely planned out season 1 in advance, but after that? I'm betting on no plans. I'd love to be mistaken, but my experience with TV says otherwise.

Edited by FurryFury
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About the cure: I get that the virus is mutating, but why not match the time traveling with the cure? In other words, send Cole back to 2033 with the 2033 cure and wipe out the virus. Or, is the splintering not that precise?

They might be able to send him to 2033, but I don't think they'd be able to wipe out the virus completely. They wouldn't be able to reach enough people, and those they did would have to stay pretty isolated, I'd think.

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About the cure:  I get that the virus is mutating, but why not match the time traveling with the cure?  In other words, send Cole back to 2033 with the 2033 cure and wipe out the virus.  Or, is the splintering not that precise?

 

I think it's as simple as it's too late for the purposes of Jones.  Ultimately Jones wants to save Hannah.  Saving Hannah means saving pretty much everyone else from the virus so that pretty much gives her the ability to say "I want to save everyone!"  But really it's just her daughter.

 

 

I was suspicious of Jones being so similar to Cassie, look-wise, but now I think it was just a coincidence.

 

I think we can safely put away the Jones is Cassie theory no?  Before it was just a skeleton with a watch.  Now we know that it is actually her dead body it can't be Jones because Jones is old and not dead and Cassie is young and dead.  Right?

 

At first I thought maybe where her body in this episode was in a different place in the office than in the pilot when he found her skeleton since it looked different.  But I think it was just at a different angle because I remember there was a window when he found her and when they saw each other at the CDC she was standing by a window.  Good continuity team!  Cole also laid her body in what looked like a similar position it was found.  Now I'm thinking...sooo they just left her body lying there?  Kinda rude.  Maybe she left instructions though.  "You must leave my dead decomposing body EXACTLY where it is.  Yes, I know it'll be gross but trust me on this.  Your future may or may not depend on it.  We're working on it."

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Cassie and Jones aren't even the same nationality, so very unlikely they'd be the same.

 

The ages eliminates most of the people we've met as possible Cole/Cassie kid.  Their child would have to be younger than 27.  I'm hoping their isn't a child, but it's looking like there must be.  Cassie's behavior implied that their relationship became very close.  The only thing a child would be good for is to explore what exactly would make Cole alter from his path.  He's totally on board with potentially being erased if it means saving humanity.  What, if anything, would stop him?  What wouldn't stop him?

 

They might be able to send him to 2033, but I don't think they'd be able to wipe out the virus completely. They wouldn't be able to reach enough people, and those they did would have to stay pretty isolated, I'd think.

If they sent him to 2032, they'd have a chance because the 2032 people could work on the cure and hopefully have it ready to distribute.  Or maybe have it operate like a vaccine.  Of course, that's waving away the tremendous resources it requires to create that much cure.  

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Diebartdie, great idea! I'm a huge fan of Orphan Black and I didn't notice that actor at all. Then again, my screen is so dark I think I'm missing out on a lot of subtleties. I'd love to see that actor be part of the 12 Monkeys because I really liked him in Orphan Black (But I guess not enough though to remember his or his character's name!).

The actor's name is Andrew Gillies and on Orphan Black he played Ethan Duncan.

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Thanks, Diebartdie. I checked out the link & wow, he looks so different cleaned up! He looked really grubby in OB. And in 12 Monkeys.

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This is one show that always has me riveted, and this episode was no different.

 

Yay to seeing Jennifer again.

 

The Cassie/Cole and Cole/Ramse scenes were just wonderful - poignant, heartbreaking.

I'm guessing Aaron dies early of the plague.

 

I kept waiting for Cassie to mention that Aaron had died some time between 2015 and 2017.

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Jones is a hard case.

 

What exactly did she burn at the end?  She had two documents.  One was proof that a cure had been found for the 2033 strain.  The other, which she burned, I wasn't able to see clearly.  The scene implies that the earlier accusations were true -- that she lied about the virus mutating at a rate that made a cure impossible, and that the vaccine was a successful.  But I'd surely like to know exactly what it is that she felt the need to burn.

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Jennifer kind of creeps me out because she always looks to me like Cassie with a dark wig on, acting all wigged out, so to speak. A few of these actresses look like variations of the same person. Like Dr. Jones also looking like an older Cassie.

I just noticed that with this episode LOL

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...What I'm really afraid of is Cassie and Cole having a "special" child - a trope I've never ever seen realized well. Please, show, don't do it. Ever....

...The ages eliminates most of the people we've met as possible Cole/Cassie kid.  Their child would have to be younger than 27.  I'm hoping their isn't a child, but it's looking like there must be....

Taking my response to both of these to the Speculation Without Spoilers thread.

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I'll say this first, because my watch musings below got longer than i was planning - when Cassie was like "i want to tell you things but i can't, because i must not alter the road you're on" I was like "Why not? Clearly the road he's currently on, taken without some alteration, leads to everyone dying from the virus. This is a fail-road. Might as well TRY a different one!"

The watch is really consuming my thoughts. I can think of only a few possibilities (but could well be missing many more...) - that because of Cole's presence at Cassie's death, she didn't leave the message that pegged him as the one Jones needed to send back - but i follow that thought train and it leads straight to "without that message, this wouldn't be happening at all", so that doesn't work.

I guess that whatever address Cassie gave him COULD somehow result in a later-Cole going back to when earlier-Cole scratched the watch, and stopping earlier-Cole from doing it, intentionally or unintentionally.

Or something that happened in that scene will result in something that didn't happen in the past of thetimeline we were seeing which involves the watch getting fixed in 2016.

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I'll say this first, because my watch musings below got longer than i was planning - when Cassie was like "i want to tell you things but i can't, because i must not alter the road you're on" I was like "Why not? Clearly the road he's currently on, taken without some alteration, leads to everyone dying from the virus. This is a fail-road. Might as well TRY a different one!"...

She then barely whispers: "See you soon."

I don't know why she can't tell him, but she does not think this is the end.

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I imagine that Ramse's about-face re: the cure has more to do with him and his history with Helena and the trust that they have, and his history with Jones and knowing the sorts of things she's capable of and has lied about before. There is probably a strong sense, too, of him wanting to believe there is a cure so that they don't have to undo all of time and his son and his life with Helena will not be erased.

 

I'm of mixed feelings about the renewal. On the one hand, I really enjoy this show and am glad to see it continue (and feel it is well deserved for all the talent behind it); on the other hand, I hope this doesn't mean we'll end up having long stretches of plot that goes nowhere in order that they can pad out their story. They've done a great job so far, so hopefully my fears are just due to my own innate jadedness.

Edited by Cthulhudrew

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Cole finds Cassie's watch -- unscratched -- in the future, and takes it into the past.  He scratches the past-watch and we observe future-watch to become scratched.  Cassie ends up wearing a scratched watch.  But Cassie's watch cannot remain scratched, because with the passage of time, it becomes the watch Cole finds in the future, and that watch is unscratched.

 

So, we witness her watch descratch itself.

 

But I can think of no logical explanation (within the time-travel logic we have been given) for why the watch is descratched.  Unless Cole journeys into the past and stops himself from performing the watch-scratching demonstration in the first place.  Which I consider unlikely.  Therefore I think the watch descratching itself is a logic-patch inserted by the writers, to cover a bug in the time-travel narrative.

 

The paradoxical temporal loop of him finding Cassie's watch unscratched in the future, and then scratching the very same watch in the past, thereby making it impossible for him to find it unscratched in the future, so he can't scratch it in the past, so he can find it unscratched in the future...  This is a logical error in the script.  They fixed it by having the watch mysteriously descratch itself.  What they should have done, is have Cassie take the watch to a watchmaker, and have the crystal replaced.

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I am assuming that since they zoomed in on the unscratched watch, it is going to be explained, although I don't have a theory at the moment.

Regardless, I love this bit of prose:

...Therefore I think the watch descratching itself is a logic-patch inserted by the writers, to cover a bug in the time-travel narrative....

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I'm also assuming an explanation in the future.  It seems there will be a lot more explanations about the time travel.  They are going to have to address the whole part about Cole traveling back in time to make the virus never happen which effectively erases him as we know him so that he can never go back in time to correct the virus thing.  

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They fixed it by having the watch mysteriously descratch itself. What they should have done, is have Cassie take the watch to a watchmaker, and have the crystal replaced.

That wouldn't work because then when he scratched his watch from the future, it wouldn't affect the watch in the past because they'd have two different pieces of crystal on them.

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That wouldn't work because then when he scratched his watch from the future, it wouldn't affect the watch in the past because they'd have two different pieces of crystal on them.

 

Damn!

 

No, wait.  He doesn't scratch the watch from the future, he scratches her watch from the past, causing the scratch to propagate through time and appear on future-watch.  No, because future-watch has a different crystal, so...

 

Damn!

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He probably should have skipped the scratching and just did that thing where he put them together and made a time explosion (or whatever it was) to convince Cassie the watches had a magical temporal link, and just saved us all this headache!

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