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Tara Ariano

S04.E05: At The First Clear Word

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I guess my issue is all the responsibility is given to the guy (Tank in this case) to KNOW the girl is "blacked out".  Because they haven't said she is "knocked out", so I am assuming she was conscience during the act.  Knocked out is far different from blacked out, it's all in the verbiage in this specific situation.  How is he supposed to know that she won't remember it?  If the tables were turned and Tank said he did not remember NO ONE would believe him.

 

We are all about empowering females today, I just don't think it should be at the expense of the males.  Women be empowered but accept responsibility for your actions.   Why is she automatically the victim and he is a rapist?  Because he remembers and she doesn't?  Not remembering doesn't mean you did not give consent by your actions. If you really want to be empowered: don't get so drunk that you don't remember what you did or didn't do.  Again, why is it up to another drunk person to figure out if you are too drunk to consent to something?  They haven't said he was sober and had sex with her, that would be a WHOLE different story. 

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CoolMom to me "blacked out" and "knocked out" mean the same thing- you are totally 100% unconcious. I would HOPE Tank was not having sex with an unconcious Bay, based on what the show as presented to us she was aware during intercourse and maybe blacked out after? Again I'm not sure how it works when someone has had that much to drink.

Bay did ask Tank what happened, what she said, how they ended up in bed together. She didn't wake up screaming at him "get away get away", IMO Tank got defensive not because he intended to assault Bay, or was upset that she suggested she wasn't into it, because it was further evidence of his own insecurity that the ONLY way he could be intimate with her was when she was dead drunk.

I 100% understand if after what happened Bay doesn't want to associate with Tank any more, and I think Tank too needs to work on his own policies as far as drunken sex, but I based on what the show has presented to us we can't know if Bay consented or not. Maybe at the end of the run they will give us a scene regarding what happened (not Tank's memories or Bay's memories).

Edited by Scarlett45

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I get it and it makes sense, but I get stuck with how being drunk somehow does absolve Bay from responsibility and puts it ALL on Tank.

I've been drunk a lot in my life, and in my experience there is a definite line between drunk enough to make bad decisions (Tank) and so drunk you can't stand up (Bay). Tank could tell he was in a better position than Bay; he brought her water because she couldn't get off the bed. Bay did drink, but she also trusted Tank and he took advantage of that trust. I feel that Tank knowing full well that Bay has previously refused to have sex with him and is in a current relationship should have, at minimum, asked "are you sure?" 

 

It doesn't matter if you're male or female, the less drunk person should not take advantage of someone who is obviously impaired.

 

It was clear Tank had clear memories of his evening, he apparently prepared for and performed protected sex in a stranger's bedroom, and was delighted that he finally had sex with a girl who had previously turned him down. Bay had a few fuzzy memories of the night before and woke up uncomfortable at the thought of possibly having had sex with Tank.

Yes. If this story had been done with Toby in Bay's position and Simone in Tank's position, I would feel the same way. It's not male vs female, it's drunk vs black out drunk. Tank was sober enough to use protection. 

 

I don't think Bay needs to press charges. I do think she needs to cut Tank out of her life. I don't think Tank needs to be labeled as a sex offender. I do think he needs to apologize. 

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THIS so much.  As a mother of 2 daughters AND a son I just cannot wrap my brain around the fact that both were drunk and because Tank was drunk and "remembered"  (which I will use loosely) but Bay didn't then he somehow has the full responsibility.  At what point are we going to hold females as accountable as the males. She should bear equal responsibility because he was NOT pouring drinks down her then tricking her into going in the room.  In both scenarios she invited him into the bed.  Which many  young men would take as an opening to the next level.  Right or wrong they cannot be compared to a 40 something couple giving consent because that 40 something couple has a lot more experience in life than two college age kids.  Yes, kids because I have a kid Tank's age and they do not have the life skills I have a 45. 

 

One of the things Bay said to Daphne toward the end was along the lines of she woke up and just felt like something was wrong.  Daphne clearly took that as you were raped.  Whereas I took that as well you did just cheat on your boyfriend with your ex which could be what you are feeling.

 

I watched this with my almost 14 yr old, it was certainly a PSA for THIS IS WHY YOU DO NOT DRINK at their age. 

 

       Agreeing 1000%.  The fact is, if you're drunk enough, you may not know what you've said "yes" to. Or not said "no" to. Which is a really good reason for anyone (men and women) not to drink to excess, if at all. People have engaged in all manner of unexpected and unpleasant behavior when they're "under the influence", sex is just one that has certain repercussions. Ever notice that, especially at the high school/college level, alcohol is very often a part of these he said/she said sexual encounters?

Edited by TVForever
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I wonder if that guy whose room they used will be revealed to have set up a nanny cam to watch over his stuff while away.

 

I also wonder, once this becomes public, if Tank being on the football team will come up within the show. It's one thing to accuse a guy on campus of date rape, but accusing someone on a glamor sports team of rape is going to bring a hell of a lot of scrutiny and vitriol down on the accuser. Her family's wealth, having cheated on Tank, criminal record, involvement with occupy Carlton, Daphne blackmailing a state senator, Katherine writing a sex book, Regina being an alcoholic who knew about the switch, and anything else the K-V clan has done would be brought up and made public to discredit her.

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I wonder if that guy whose room they used will be revealed to have set up a nanny cam to watch over his stuff while away.

I also wonder, once this becomes public, if Tank being on the football team will come up within the show. It's one thing to accuse a guy on campus of date rape, but accusing someone on a glamor sports team of rape is going to bring a hell of a lot of scrutiny and vitriol down on the accuser. Her family's wealth, having cheated on Tank, criminal record, involvement with occupy Carlton, Daphne blackmailing a state senator, Katherine writing a sex book, Regina being an alcoholic who knew about the switch, and anything else the K-V clan has done would be brought up and made public to discredit her.

I wasn't under the impression that Bay was going to, or wanted to charge Tank with rape/sexual assault criminally or otherwise (like with the school board). I think the show is going to focus more on how she deals with this personally- but I could be wrong.

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Im not mad at Regina- Regina is a recovering alcoholic who has seen more much than I have. If someone told naive ME, they were so drunk they could remember what I happened, I would assumed they blacked out before intercourse. Having sex with someone who's knocked out is rape, even if earlier in the night they consented to foreplay or whatever but I don't know how memory loss works with alcohol.

 

CoolMom to me "blacked out" and "knocked out" mean the same thing- you are totally 100% unconcious. I would HOPE Tank was not having sex with an unconcious Bay, based on what the show as presented to us she was aware during intercourse and maybe blacked out after? Again I'm not sure how it works when someone has had that much to drink..

 

Awright, I'll be the drunken floozy and speak up.  I have woken up a few times not being able to remember parts of an evening due to drinking.  A person can be fully functioning, walking, talking, doing and then not remember the next day what happened.  My SO and I went to a Christmas party one year, and I remember getting into the cab with him to go home, don't remember anything about the cab ride or getting home, then I remember some stuff in the house, and forgot everything after starting to roll around on the living room floor together.  Another time, we were just having pizza night at home and drank too much and I woke up in bed not remembering when or how we got there.  My SO remembered everything, has known me for over 20 years, but didn't know that I'd had so much to drink I wouldn't remember what we had done because I wasn't passed out or acting any different from other times I'd drank too much and could remember everything. 

 

Neither of these things freaked me out because of what we did that I couldn't remember, just that it's so weird to not remember.  It probably wouldnt' have freaked Bay out as much if she had woken up with Emmett without remembering.

 

So, yes, Bay absolutely could have been awake and functioning and consenting but not remember it without ever having passed out.  And Regina, of all people, should understand these nuances of drinking without being so black and white about it.  I also wish she'd talked with Bay a little about how it feels to wake up not remembering how you got to where you are, and the difference between blacking out (not remembering) and passing out (not being conscious).

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izabella I don't think you're a floozy! Lol. I admit to being naive on these matters that's why I asked. Thank you I understand a lot better now. Previously in my mind "can't remember" means "I was unconcious or on my way to unconsciousness". Edited by Scarlett45
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It probably wouldnt' have freaked Bay out as much if she had woken up with Emmett without remembering.

 

I think that is what I am getting at;  I don't think Bay would have been freaked out if it was Emmett and no one would have been saying and/or implying that Emmett had date raped her.  It's a different standard for the same thing. Replace Tank with Emmett in the exact scene = no problem drunk sex with BF even if she could not remember.  My issue is she feels bad that she cannot remember what happened which included sleeping with someone when she has a boyfriend so that equals Tank date raped her.  I just don't agree with how they are painting it.

 

In the Toby/Simone situation noted above, if Toby had been black out drunk would Simone have been labeled a rapist?  I just don't think she would have.

 

I know date rape happens, we have lived it in my extended family.  But I think as a society we should not be so quick to always blame the guy and that is what this show is doing just perpetuating the guy is always the bad guy line.   Because I agree with Tank at their age no one stops at every point during a sexual interaction and says "is this yes" or "do you consent"?  I didn't and believe me at least once I woke up with the OMG did I really do that with him? reaction.

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Exactly.  

 

She can be worried that she might have cheated on Emmett, but she can also be scared that it's not that simple and that she was violated by someone who she thought was her "friend."  Especially when that "friend's" story isn't adding up and goes against what she knows inherently about herself.  She knows she's never wanted to have sex with Tank, but here he is saying all this stuff that doesn't make much sense to her.  It doesn't add up.

 

And Bay's cheated before. She knows what that feels like.  This ain't that.  Regina just unwittingly provided a possible explanation for why she is feeling the way she is.  Not that Bay was looking for some "out" for cheating on Emmett.  

 

And Tank should do himself a favor and admit to the possibility of wrongdoing on his part.  Bay has.  His incredulous attitude that Bay somehow doesn't like the fact that she slept with him is off-putting.  He knows damn well that she was never into having sex with him before, so his attitude now is sort of gross.  Like, "how DARE she try to act like she wasn't totally into being with me!"  It's close to "you know you wanted it" territory.  The writers keep talking about how he "cares so much" about Bay, but if he did, he would be horrified that she's hurting and he may have been the cause.

 

He frankly looks like a fool.  I can possibly buy that at the drunken moment he really believed his fantasy that she was going to break up with Emmett to run back to his open arms, but to continue to act in the light of sober day like that was remotely plausible makes him look sketchy.  Unless he's supposed to be sort of slow, he knows that was never going to happen.  I don't know if he's embarrassed, trying to save face, or if he's so desperate for Bay to want him that he really believes it, but he needs to give it up.

 

Not that I ever bought it, as he does have a history of being quick to anger and aggressive when he doesn't get his way, but that "nice guy" shtick is done. 

 

Why was he surprised that Toby was sticking by his sister? 

 

And no. Bay didn't rape him.  He clearly doesn't have an issue with HIS consent.  

 

Someone on Tumblr, can't find it at the moment, posted a screenshot of Bay looking at the ceiling in the room and a screenshot of Tank looking at the same ceiling.  The shot from Bay's POV was all blurry and out of focus, but Tank's was normal and clear.  I don't know if it was intentional or not from the writers or the director, but it was interesting nonetheless.

I complete see why Tank wont say he did something wrong. If he says did something wrong, based on how people are reacted, he raped Bay. Of course he doesn't want to say that because he doesn't believe he did rape Bay. Once he says what he did was wrong, it's just going to open up a whole new can of worms for him. In regards to Toby, he's feeling like no one believes him. Two friends he trusts seems to be accusing him of rape. Like he said, he feels like he's in a nightmare and no one believes him.

 

At end of the day, this is all murky. I and pretty much every I know has had sex while intoxicated and/or while the other was intoxicated. I don't recall ever asking if anything is okay. Because, we are both going for it. I move based on action. But, I don't know anyone who asks questions every step of the way. It's just something happens and it doesn't become an actual deal until someone makes it a deal. I don't mean to say that the person (say Bay for example) is in the wrong for feeling how they feel. But, to look at it from Tank's point of view, they had a drunken hook up. People do it all the time. It's college. They were just going with the flow. He didn't feel that he was taking advantage of her.

 

I just feel awful on Tank's end. I mean obviously I feel for Bay and what's shes going to go through. But, I can't imagine being on cloud nine and thinking a girl you really like finally going for it with you and then the next day you being labeled a rapist by people you trust. Someone brought up a good point that as a administrator, when Toby's girlfriend hears about this, she has a duty to report this whether or not Bay does. I think Tank is going to to end up being expelled from school and that's how they write him off. From what I have seen of the character and the incident, I just don't want to see that for him,

 

In regards to who was more drunk. Every single person reacts to alcohol differently. When it comes to memory, you can remember specifics while not remembering the whole picture. So, Bay being hyper aware of certain things but not remembering a lot of it isn't weird. Neither is Tank being hyper aware of the use of protection, what she said, etc. Not to be TMI, I remember one hook up I had that was totally random and we were drunk and I remembered barely any of the specifics the morning after but to this day I remember using a condom and her making sure I had one. This relates to Tank in that I'm super confident of this because even while drunk, my being scared of STD's and having a unplanned child always comes clear. So, the main focus the next morning and during the hook up was that protection was used even if a lot of the other specifics weren't. I made sure I found the protection used and everything the next morning as well (again sorry about the TMI). But with Tank, I could see that even if he doesn't remember a lot of the specifics, he would remember say protection being used or even Bay initiating a hook up because that's what he has wanted for so long. He could just be remembering what he wants to see instead of reality. But, there is another gray area.

 

But, this is just a mess. It's possible someone spiked her drink. She may have had a concussion. Two different stories are being remembered. Even if Tank never meant to do any harm to Bay he could end paying dire consequences. It's just all bad. I feel bad for everyone and I felt ill watching it.

 

I care jack shit about Daphne or whatever other BS is going on. All of that is super filler for me right now.

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I wasn't under the impression that Bay was going to, or wanted to charge Tank with rape/sexual assault criminally or otherwise (like with the school board). I think the show is going to focus more on how she deals with this personally- but I could be wrong.

 

Toby was shown talking to his girlfriend about it, they made a big point about how she was an administrator at the college earlier in the episode. Toby was probably just trying to talk to her as a girlfriend and not a representative of the school, but that's not going to matter. She'll put things in motion to have him investigated/expelled and it will end up going public whether Bay wants it to or not.

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So, yes, Bay absolutely could have been awake and functioning and consenting but not remember it without ever having passed out.  And Regina, of all people, should understand these nuances of drinking without being so black and white about it.

 

Exactly. That's why this is such a frustrating storyline - a teen show aimed at a teen girl audience (for that most part) is just not going to portray it in ways that go against a very PC agenda. I mean, if a journalistic craphole like Buzzfeed is praising it for nuance, that already says something.

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Maybe Tank should acknowledge that he is twice Bay's size. Even if he's a gentle giant, we all know he could rape her. I think strength differential should have something to do with consent, especially when there's alcohol abuse going on. Tank is being dumb. I assume if the 2 of them had had sex while they weren't drunk, Bay would have asked him to use a condom. She asks him after the fact, and he's all, "of COURSE!" So that means she was too drunk to ask at the time. Otherwise he would have said yes, we discussed condom use last night.

Can we talk about the real scandal here? Stupid professor's husband's no shoe rule! Proper etiquette would have them allow the guests to leave their shoes on, or they should have a basket of house shoes guests can use. Or, since it was for science, they could have donned breaking bad booties over their shoes. Was that whole ruse just a setup so they could get the shot of a group of shoes by the door where we realize there's 5 girls there?

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I feel both Bay and Tank are equally at fault for this situation. I say this as a mother to a 14 year old son and two daughters, but if you were in Tank's shoes and your friend that you had drunk sex with implied that you raped her how would you take it? This situation can ruin Tank's life and label him a sex offender for life.

They were both drunk and if Bay claims she can't remember, how can she be certain she pushed him away? Why is it just the males responsibility to make sure she was ok to have sex with? Both made a bad choice, but if Tank was drinking then his decision making was impaired and if Bay was leading him on then I can see how they ended up having sex. It was both their faults, so for Bay to act like a poor victim of Tank the rapist is ridiculous.

 

He is a sex offender. She was to drunk to consent, he wasn't. If the person can't remember giving consent then they didn't, that is called rape and is a crime. 

 

Bay is not in anyway to blame. having too much to drink does not make it okay for someone to commit any crime. Would we be blaming Bey's bad decision making if he beat her up? Would it be okay to kill her? Then why is rape some how not as bad? In the absence of consent, consent is not assumed. Bey did not give consent and Tank assumed. 

 

Bey is a victim, she has been raped. Tank is a rapist whether he or everyone around him want to admit that or not. People wanting to believe it's bad decision making on both parts, or that he didn't do anything wrong is what we call rape culture. 

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Wow, Travis doesn't even know Bay that well, and even he could tell that something was wrong with her. Way to go, Katherine and Regina. Mothers of the year material right there. 

Edited by Zima
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I can't quote right now but this is in response to @jtrattray.

I'm curious. You state that Tank was not too drunk to consent. If you believed that he was, would you still be adamant that Tank is a rapist? If he was totally sober, I'd be right with you, but I thought he was shown to slightly less drunk than Bay.

I think rape is too strong a word for what happened. Maybe just nonconsentual sex. To me that is a huge difference. There was no intent to rape, or even to take advantage. In his mind, she was 100% on board. Turns out he was wrong. But if she wasn't saying no and wasn't trying to push him off, and wasn't just laying there unconscious, what indication did he have that he was doing anything wrong? Where do you think he went wrong? I really want to know.

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He is a sex offender. She was to drunk to consent, he wasn't. If the person can't remember giving consent then they didn't, that is called rape and is a crime.

Bay is not in anyway to blame. having too much to drink does not make it okay for someone to commit any crime. Would we be blaming Bey's bad decision making if he beat her up? Would it be okay to kill her? Then why is rape some how not as bad? In the absence of consent, consent is not assumed. Bey did not give consent and Tank assumed.

Bey is a victim, she has been raped. Tank is a rapist whether he or everyone around him want to admit that or not. People wanting to believe it's bad decision making on both parts, or that he didn't do anything wrong is what we call rape culture.

Bay is only a victim of poor decisions on her part. Unless we get a full depiction of what really happened and we find out Bay was unconscious while Tank had sex with her then she wasnt raped. By the way, I've also had drunken moments in my youth when I blacked out, and you can be fully conscious and seem just fine and not remember what happened the next morning.

What are young men to do in a situation like this? Do they need to get a written statement from girls they have sex with, in case said girl can't remember the next morning? Why is it the man's responsibility? Also, tank didn't beat or kill her so no need for the dramatics. Unless we get a scene with what really happened from the show, then it seems like a case of drunk sex and nothing more.

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If Bey were the conscious one and Tank couldn't remember she would be guilty of rape. There is no such thing as non-consentual sex that isn't rape.

She does need to be fighting him off, the absence of consent is all that it need for this to become rape.

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Bay is not in anyway to blame. having too much to drink does not make it okay for someone to commit any crime. Would we be blaming Bey's bad decision making if he beat her up? Would it be okay to kill her? Then why is rape some how not as bad? In the absence of consent, consent is not assumed. Bey did not give consent and Tank assumed.

 

Presumably Bay would not be on board with Tank beating her up or killing her. If she was kissing him and taking clothes off, it's not a HUGE assumption to make that she was into it. Like I read on IMDb, if you give someone a slice of pie and they are stuffing their face with it, it's natural to assume that they like the pie and don't mind that you provided it.

 

We can all talk all day about whether or not Bay consented (and discussion is fun), but in the real world, what actual good would come out of Bay filing rape charges against Tank? She got drunk, had sex with her ex, and woke up to regret it. Does that warrant Tank having a criminal record, possibly being expelled, maybe getting sent to jail (this I doubt though - a jury most likely wouldn't convict this particular case), and being put on the sex offender list for the rest of his life? I don't think so.

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Presumably Bay would not be on board with Tank beating her up or killing her. If she was kissing him and taking clothes off, it's not a HUGE assumption to make that she was into it. Like I read on IMDb, if you give someone a slice of pie and they are stuffing their face with it, it's natural to assume that they like the pie and don't mind that you provided it.

We can all talk all day about whether or not Bay consented (and discussion is fun), but in the real world, what actual good would come out of Bay filing rape charges against Tank? She got drunk, had sex with her ex, and woke up to regret it. Does that warrant Tank having a criminal record, possibly being expelled, maybe getting sent to jail (this I doubt though - a jury most likely wouldn't convict this particular case), and being put on the sex offender list for the rest of his life? I don't think so.

In the real world most rapists walk free. Mostly because juries have attitudes like yours. She was asking for it, she wanted it. Whether she actually consented appears to be irrelevant.

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I don't know if that would help in this situation where Bay doesn't remember what she said.   She could have said Yes, as even she acknowledges.  She could have even kept saying yes right up until they were done, too.  But not remembering what happened means she was too drunk to say yes and didn't need to say no.  Yes means Yes doesn't make it any simpler in these cases.  It just makes it rape no matter what she says to the guy, just like statutory rape for underage teens. 

 

We could easily flip this around though. What if Tank were the one who woke up with regrets? As has already been said, they were both impaired. He wasn't able to give consent either. So, did she rape him?

 

If she had said earlier in the night "I don't want to have sex with you" and then after having a few drinks she seemed to change her mind, then yes, Tank needs to ask if she really wants to do this or if it's just the alcohol talking. 

 

I realize this is a subject where mileage varies, but I appreciate the show looking at it from both perspectives. 

 

Re: an earlier comment about Tank being an escape for Bay. It actually makes it sound like she used him. She got drunk and had sex to forget her problems then felt bad about her poor life choices.

 

To be clear, women (and men) do get taken advantage of and I do judge these things through my personal experiences as a victim. If I get scared in the middle of sex/have a flashback and don't say anything to my partner, that's not his fault. He doesn't suddenly become a rapist because I was too afraid to say no or to even let on that I was scared from a previous encounter that had nothing to do with him. However, if I say "I don't want to go that far because I'm feeling scared right now," so that the person knows I may be too scared to say no when it gets to that point, and he ignores that warning, then yes, that's rape.

 

But that's not what happened here. Two people got drunk, both probably too drunk to consent. It's a no-fault situation.

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Re: an earlier comment about Tank being an escape for Bay. It actually makes it sound like she used him. She got drunk and had sex to forget her problems then felt bad about her poor life choices.

 

You need to take a step back.  That is NOT what my post meant at all.  I think it was pretty clear since I included examples of what I meant, so you need to not put words in my mouth and twist what I said into such a disgusting assertion.  

 

Never mind the fact that there is absolutely NO evidence to even remotely support that crap.  Please, what was the evidence, from the actual show, that supports this? Tell me when Bay deliberately had sex with him to forget about her problems. Yeah.  

 

Some of these posts that want to absolve Tank of any responsibility here, but hold Bay accountable for every bad choice she made, and NO ONE is saying she didn't make any, are truly frightening.  "Poor Tank."  Come on, he's just as responsible for the bad choices HE made.  Whether he meant to make them or not.  The difference being that his bad choices led to a criminal act.

 

And in reference to the "Tank was drunk too" bit, so what?  He's still responsible for anything he may have done wrong and any crimes committed while drunk.   People commit crimes while drunk all the time.  They don't get off for those crimes by saying, "well, I was drunk." And he clearly was in favor of having sex with Bay, so the "did Bay rape him" is irrelevant as well.  If he wants to say she raped him, go for it.  Bay would be in the same position he is right now.  Except he would look like a liar, since he's the one who's acting it was like the best sex he ever had.

 

As for if Bay would feel the same way if this was Emmett, why wouldn't she?  If she woke up next to Emmett and wasn't sure if she gave him consent, and was pretty sure she most likely didn't, it's sexual assault as well.  Emmett, just because he's her boyfriend, doesn't have the right to just have sex with her if she doesn't want to. 

 

This show isn't about Tank.  So no, he doesn't really matter to me.  Bay hasn't done anything to him that's a crime.  She's trying to find out what really happened TO HER.  

 

How is non-consensual sex not rape?

 

Also, the mention that she invited him to the bed in both versions.  Is inviting someone to sit on a bed with you some signal that you want to have sex with them?  Bay sent Tank a message that she wanted to have sex with Tank by asking him to sit on the bed with her?  I didn't know that is what that meant.  Good to know.  This is like age old excuse that a woman was "asking for it" by wearing a certain type of clothing.  

Edited by KBrownie
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In the scene we were shown twice of Bay and Tank in bed together, the wording is almost identical, except at the beginning of the scene.  

 

The first time we see the scene, Bay says he's awesome and that she should have given him more of a chance.  When she speaks about her and Emmett, her voice sounds wistful and sad.  Tank then says he never got over her, says she's beautiful and she turns to him, puts her hand on his chest, smiles, and kisses him.  He gently pushes her away and they both say they are really drunk.  

 

The second time we see the scene, Bay thanks him for being her friend and he asked why things didn't work out with them.  She doesn't answer, then talks about her and Emmett, with her tone sounding regretful.  Tank says he never got over her, says she's beautiful, then turns to face her and kisses her. She gently pushes him away and they both say they are drunk.  

 

Honestly, if they wanted to do a story about informed consent, I wish they had been more original, because I feel like I've seen this on tv plenty of times.  For me, it would have been interesting to see how this would have played out if it was Emmett and Bay.  If we are calling what happened between Tank and Bay rape, then it would also be rape if it was Emmett instead, yet there's an assumption that being in a relationship means automatic implied consent.

 

 

 

Moving on, Daphne's storyline at the teacher's house was annoying.  If the school found out that she was fraternizing with current students, there would have been disciplinary action.  It shows blatant favoritism and I'm sure the rest of the students in her class would have been angry to discover that their professor was, at the least, giving them special attention, and at most, maybe changing their grades.

 

(I had a friend who became very good friends with one of her professors; one that she took multiple classes with.  They socialized regularly outside of class and, at one point, became an unofficial TA for the professor.  She told me that she regularly graded the tests of this professor's intro class and once wrote a test for the class she was currently taking.  If you were in that class, wouldn't you be angry about that?)

 

I am a huge advocate of getting more woman involved in STEM fields, so I do appreciate what the professor was trying to do.  Women are so underrepresented and I think that having an all female group doing an experiment was somewhat of a good idea, just not at her home.  However, it never really sits well with me when women in male dominated fields are encouraged to focus on working together, just because they are a minority.  When I've worked in a group with both men and women, I've found that I have to be assertive in order to have my voice heard.  There's a big difference between being assertive and hostile and I wish the professor had made it clear that you can compete or disagree with someone without assuming they are the enemy.  I think I would have taken the point of the scene better if this was a group assignment that they botched.

 

 

Also, a mild annoyance?  R2D2 is from Star Wars, not Star Trek.  And what was with the giggling and rolling of the eyes?  If the point of that was to show that the professor was unusual because she was a woman who likes sci-fi, but it's ok because she's "still pretty cool, though", well, way to reinforce a stereotype, show.

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Also, the mention that she invited him to the bed in both versions.  Is inviting someone to sit on a bed with you some signal that you want to have sex with them?  Bay sent Tank a message that she wanted to have sex with Tank by asking him to sit on the bed with her?  I didn't know that is what that meant.  Good to know.  This is like age old excuse that a woman was "asking for it" by wearing a certain type of clothing.  

 

I 100% agree with you here. Inviting someone into your room or even inviting someone to fool around with you on your bed is in no way an invitation for sex. It's an invitation to sit on your bed or fool around, if that's what you want. 

 

I did not put words in your mouth. I quoted your words and then gave my opinion of them. This is a discussion, that's what happens. No need for dramatics.

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I did not put words in your mouth. I quoted your words and then gave my opinion of them. This is a discussion, that's what happens. No need for dramatics.

 

No, you quoted what I said and added and implied meaning to the quote that I did not.  

 

And then you used my words to make a baseless and unfounded assertion that has no basis on what happened in the show or was in any way related to what I said.

 

There were no dramatics.  Just try not to twist the meaning of my words around to fit your own interpretations.  That is not a discussion.  Say whatever it is that you want to say, but don't twist the meaning and intent of what I say to try and fit your own opinion that had nothing to do with what I said.

 

Escape in my original post was simply meant that Tank was a way for her to have fun with a friend without the baggage of whatever was troubling her.  Nowhere did I suggest or imply that she used Tank for sex to forget about her problems.  That was all you.

Edited by KBrownie

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Replace Tank with Emmett in the exact scene = no problem drunk sex with BF even if she could not remember.

 

But with Emmett she would have consented to sex if she was sober.

 

I don't think Bay needs to press charges. I do think she needs to cut Tank out of her life. I don't think Tank needs to be labeled as a sex offender. I do think he needs to apologize.

 

I agree, I don't think Tank deserves to go to jail, but I don't think the encounter should be laughed off either. If Tank had been sober I would think differently.

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You need to take a step back.  That is NOT what my post meant at all.  I think it was pretty clear since I included examples of what I meant, so you need to not put words in my mouth and twist what I said into such a disgusting assertion.  

 

Never mind the fact that there is absolutely NO evidence to even remotely support that crap.  Please, what was the evidence, from the actual show, that supports this? Tell me when Bay deliberately had sex with him to forget about her problems. Yeah.  

 

Some of these posts that want to absolve Tank of any responsibility here, but hold Bay accountable for every bad choice she made, and NO ONE is saying she didn't make any, are truly frightening.  "Poor Tank."  Come on, he's just as responsible for the bad choices HE made.  Whether he meant to make them or not.  The difference being that his bad choices led to a criminal act.

 

And in reference to the "Tank was drunk too" bit, so what?  He's still responsible for anything he may have done wrong and any crimes committed while drunk.   People commit crimes while drunk all the time.  They don't get off for those crimes by saying, "well, I was drunk." And he clearly was in favor of having sex with Bay, so the "did Bay rape him" is irrelevant as well.  If he wants to say she raped him, go for it.  Bay would be in the same position he is right now.  Except he would look like a liar, since he's the one who's acting it was like the best sex he ever had.

 

As for if Bay would feel the same way if this was Emmett, why wouldn't she?  If she woke up next to Emmett and wasn't sure if she gave him consent, and was pretty sure she most likely didn't, it's sexual assault as well.  Emmett, just because he's her boyfriend, doesn't have the right to just have sex with her if she doesn't want to. 

 

This show isn't about Tank.  So no, he doesn't really matter to me.  Bay hasn't done anything to him that's a crime.  She's trying to find out what really happened TO HER.  

 

How is non-consensual sex not rape?

 

Also, the mention that she invited him to the bed in both versions.  Is inviting someone to sit on a bed with you some signal that you want to have sex with them?  Bay sent Tank a message that she wanted to have sex with Tank by asking him to sit on the bed with her?  I didn't know that is what that meant.  Good to know.  This is like age old excuse that a woman was "asking for it" by wearing a certain type of clothing.

  

Exactly!

If Bey were the conscious one and Tank couldn't remember she would be guilty of rape. There is no such thing as non-consentual sex that isn't rape.

She does need to be fighting him off, the absence of consent is all that it need for this to become rape.

Yes! This! Tank remembers well enough to be certain that he used protection. Bay did not remember if protection was used (and after a recent pregnancy scare she would likely be extra cautious). To me, this all indicates rape.

  

Presumably Bay would not be on board with Tank beating her up or killing her. If she was kissing him and taking clothes off, it's not a HUGE assumption to make that she was into it. Like I read on IMDb, if you give someone a slice of pie and they are stuffing their face with it, it's natural to assume that they like the pie and don't mind that you provided it.

 

We can all talk all day about whether or not Bay consented (and discussion is fun), but in the real world, what actual good would come out of Bay filing rape charges against Tank? She got drunk, had sex with her ex, and woke up to regret it. Does that warrant Tank having a criminal record, possibly being expelled, maybe getting sent to jail (this I doubt though - a jury most likely wouldn't convict this particular case), and being put on the sex offender list for the rest of his life? I don't think so.

Whether the assumption was huge or slight makes no difference. There should be no doubt when it comes to consent. And Bay filing rape charges may not change what happened to her, but it might help another crime from happening. However, I will be very surprised if she reports anything. Very few rape victims do, because in our society, it is the victim who gets persecuted.

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If Bey were the conscious one and Tank couldn't remember she would be guilty of rape. There is no such thing as non-consentual sex that isn't rape.

She does need to be fighting him off, the absence of consent is all that it need for this to become rape.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, except for one key thing.  It can be difficult to know when a person is in the middle of a blackout, as they can participate in a conversation and seem to be aware of what is going on around them.

Also, there were questions in the thread for the last episode about whether or not this was a dorm party and it's now been confirmed that it was.  I lived in an apartment throughout college, but my recollection of college parties was that one with a keg and jungle juice would never have happened in a dorm setting.  Is that at all an accurate scenario for anyone?  I had plenty of friends who lived in dorms and there was alcohol, but it was more along the lines of someone having a 6 pack of beer or a bottle of vodka.

 

When I went back to college as an adult to get a different degree, I had to take a couple of intro classes.  For one class I took, I joined a study group and we agree it was easiest to meet in the dorm room of a member, since we could only meet at night and it was roughly an equal distance for most of the members to travel.

 

Anyway, my disconnect with the dorm party is because of my recent experience to dorm life, because it was a massive pain in the ass to get in the dorm for the study session.  As a non-resident, I was not allowed to enter the dorm unaccompanied (and this was an all ages dorm, not a freshman exclusive dorm situation), which meant that if a resident held the door open for me to enter, they would be stopped and would have to take responsibility for my presence.  In order for me to have access, I would have to call the member of my study group and wait outside for them to come down and let me in.  Then we would be stopped at the front desk, where they would have to show their ID and I would have to relinquish mine and we both would have to sign the logbook, stating that I was their guest and they took responsibility for my actions.  When I left, I would have to sign myself out in order to get my ID back.

 

I don't know if my experience is typical for dorm life now, but if it is, how on earth were they able to have that kind of a party in the dorms?

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There has been a whole lot of sniping between posters regarding the Bay/Tank storyline including posters attacking each other. This is your warning to back off and wait until next week's episode to see how this plays out. Any posts that contain attacks on other posters will be deleted. Please don't test me.

Thanks your mod maraleia

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I've re-watched the episode now and I am even more confused than ever about the ridiculously inconsistent switching back and forth between 1) Bay saying she totally blacked out and remembers NOTHING and 2) Bay arguing over detailed points of the scenario with Tank, e.g. "I did not kiss you, you kissed me! I did not say this, I said that!"  Someone please explain to me how this makes any kind of sense. Does she remember nothing, or does she remember the detailed version of events that she claims in the confrontation with Tank?

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I lived in an apartment throughout college, but my recollection of college parties was that one with a keg and jungle juice would never have happened in a dorm setting.  Is that at all an accurate scenario for anyone?  I had plenty of friends who lived in dorms and there was alcohol, but it was more along the lines of someone having a 6 pack of beer or a bottle of vodka.

 

When I was in college alcohol wasn't allowed in the dorms whether you were 21 or not (and most people weren't, because most people moved off campus for their senior year).  Plenty of people snuck drinks in, but it was always just a bottle or two hidden somewhere.  There would never have been a wild party like that where kids were illegally drinking in the hallway, having chair races, and sleeping in other people's (apparently unlocked) bedrooms.

 

They should have made it be an off-campus party or at some frat house.

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Does she remember nothing, or does she remember the detailed version of events that she claims in the confrontation with Tank?

 

THANK you. This has been bugging me ever since I watched the episode - it just seemed off, and I couldn't put two and two together and put it into words.

 

 

Was that whole ruse just a setup so they could get the shot of a group of shoes by the door where we realize there's 5 girls there?

 

Haha that never even occurred to me. Granted, I filtered a lot of the riveting subplot about Daphne and her professor, but even I was "WTF is up with that lady and the shoes?".

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When I was in college alcohol wasn't allowed in the dorms whether you were 21 or not (and most people weren't, because most people moved off campus for their senior year). Plenty of people snuck drinks in, but it was always just a bottle or two hidden somewhere. There would never have been a wild party like that where kids were illegally drinking in the hallway, having chair races, and sleeping in other people's (apparently unlocked) bedrooms.

They should have made it be an off-campus party or at some frat house.

Exactly. I lived in dorms for my first year (and being Canadian and living in Ontario back when high school went to grade 13, I was at a legal age to drink) and alcohol was not permitted. There were RAs in each section, and ones on patrol each night. Most people had drinks in their mini fridges, but that usually so people could pre-drink before going out.

Edited to add that I hope that personal attacks don't derail the discussion about consent that is being discussed. However we feel about how SAB is handling the topic, it is too important an issue.

Edited by BC Mama

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Whether or not she reports this, I think it's going to be the end of the friendship between Tank and Bay.

 

And I hope it means the end of Tank being featured on the show. There's just something about the character that really turns me off. I don't know what it is. I guess it's just some weird visceral thing. I hate feeling that way about anything. It's kinda an uncomfortable feeling if that makes any sense. It's just so bizarre that a fictional character of all things would invoke that kinda feeling. Anyway...

 

If the party was in the dorm, why wasn't Iris there? I understand that every character won't show up in every eppie, but she is Daphne's roommate and they've actually given her a decent amount of screen time for being an incidental character.

 

Why do I think about these things? I'm sure TPTB don't give their own show nearly as much scrutiny as we do. lol

 

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But with Emmett she would have consented to sex if she was sober.

 

Maybe, maybe not. There could be any number of reasons that she might not have wanted to have sex with Emmett on a particular night. If the issue is that Bay was too drunk to consent, then she's too drunk to consent to anyone, be it Tank or Emmett or Ty or any random guy at that party.

 

On a somewhat ironic note, Emmett has technically committed sexual assault against Bay in the past (When she was dating Noah and telling Emmett that he needed to move on and he kissed her instead), but the show played it as, "Oh that Deaf James Dean, he's so confident!" Not as, "He kissed a woman who was clearly telling him that she wasn't interested in him, what a jerk!"

 

Unwanted intercourse is obviously a bigger deal than an unwanted kiss, but it's interesting that the show is asking if Bay said "yes" Vs Didn't say "no" when they've shown something like that play out between the show's golden couple and not treated as anything remarkable.

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my recollection of college parties was that one with a keg and jungle juice would never have happened in a dorm setting.  Is that at all an accurate scenario for anyone?

 

The show's accuracy in depicting anything related to college is on par with its depiction of Kansas City showing schools with outdoor lockers, nice weather all the time, and suspiciously west coast-looking plant species in the background. 

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Oh, I liked the episode, and I like what they're doing with Bay's story. It's very ambiguous, you cannot say or deny for certain that it was rape. I believe Tank is being honest about thinking Bay initiated it, but that may be how he remembers it, since he was also DRUNK! I don't think it's fair to put the blame solely on Tank cause he was less drunk than Bay, how do we know that? How does Bay now that? How could he know that? The only fact we have is that Bay doesn't remember and he does, but that doesn't necessarily means that she was drunker than him or that he could pick up on that. I mean, I have seen drunk people acting completely wasted, (not being able to walk or talk, etc) and remember everything the other day and I have seen only slightly drunk people acting very normal and blacking out the next day.

 

People are saying Tank was less drunk, so he should have been able to know that Bay didn't want to sleep with him. Why, if she didn't say so? What if Bay really initiated it? We don't know, even Bay herself doesn't know. And how could Tank (in his drunken state) could have had the solid mind to understand Bay was more wasted than him? She seemed very coherent in both flashbacks. So, she couldn't stand up straight and he could, so what? That doesn't mean his mind was less impaired than hers. Bay says she never initiated it, but how can she say that, she's said over and over she doesn't remember. Maybe she thinks that cause she'd never do it sober, but we all do things we don't mean when we're drunk. I've had drunk sex and I've regretted it the next day, not because I felt I had been violated, but because you make stupid decisions when you're drunk.

 

They were both wrong and I hope they both learn from it. I think Bay does need counseling and I'm in favor of her not wanting to ever talk again to Tank and Toby kicking him out of his apartment. I also hope Tank in the future reconsiders his relationships with women and learn from it. He should have been more protective of Bay, knowing what she was going through. On thing is for certain, he wasn't a friend in any sense, but he wasn't a rapist either. But I think that's as far as it should go. That's my opinion.

 

What irritates me the most is how Bay could have gotten drunk like that in PUBLIC!! She just got her ankle bracelet off! She's still on probation!! She's underage and she just did something illegal!! She could go to jail!!! And that's what I fault Tank for, he should have stopped her from drinking and as a friend try to stop her from doing something really stupid. But the again, neither Daphne or HER FREAKING MOM cared that she was drinking!!! Really Katherine, you're ok with your probation underage kid getting wasted at a college dorm?? No mention of her probation?

 

ETA: I really like this episode as a learning lesson. Without being sanctimonious or preachy it teaches both young men and women the dangers and the unintended consequences of irresponsible drinking. And I like it that neither Tank or Bay are the villain or the complete victim here. Even if we see Bay as the sole victim, Tank could end up being kicked out of college, in jail or labeled as a sex offender for the rest of his life just because of a stupid drunken mistake.

Edited by ChocButterfly
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Maybe, maybe not. There could be any number of reasons that she might not have wanted to have sex with Emmett on a particular night. If the issue is that Bay was too drunk to consent, then she's too drunk to consent to anyone, be it Tank or Emmett or Ty or any random guy at that party.

 

Okay, that's true.  But if Bay woke up with no memory of the night before and saw that she was in bed with Emmett, she would probably assumed she gave her consent and not be upset about it.  But with Tank, or even a stranger, she can't imagine consenting to it sober so she's having a hard time with it.

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It doesn't matter if you're male or female, the less drunk person should not take advantage of someone who is obviously impaired.

 

EXACTLY! I'm not placing more blame on Tank because he's a guy. I'm placing more blame on him because he was the most sober. If I ever found myself in that kind of situation... even if I was coming onto to my "friend"... I would expect a real friend to say something like... "I'm flattered and this is sooo tempting. But, maybe we should wait until we're both sober".  

 

Considering their past and the fact that Tank knows there was the chance that Bay would be remorseful the next morning... he should have put the brakes on that whole thing.

 

What if this wasn't a sexual situation at all. What if you were carrying around $500 dollars that you intend to pay a bill with the next day.... and you and a close friend go out and get crazy drunk that night. At some point in the night your less drunk friend asks if they can have half the money in your pocket because they desperately need the cash. Under normal circumstances you would say "no", like you had the other times this friend asked for a large sum of money. But, in your drunk and hazy state you "kind of" nod "yes". The next day you're $250 lighter.... You can't imagine where the rest of your money is and you can't remember the last few hours of the previous night. When you ask your friend about and they say:

 

"Oh yeah, don't you remember? I asked you if I could have it and you said "yes". I really appreciate it. I needed that cash, so badly. I still can't believe you agreed to give me so much money so easily. All the other times I've asked you for cash you turned me down flat. But, last night was different. You were so generous. Thanks, buddy!"

 

While you probably wouldn't call the police and have your friend arrested as a thief, I think you would give your "friend" the serious side-eye. Yes, you might take some of the responsibility for being stupid and sloppy drunk. But, IMO, it does not negate the fact that your "friend" used your compromised state to take something they knew you likely would not normally have agreed to give.

 

The less drunk friend is the more culpable party. Tank is more wrong than Bay... not because he's the man... but because he was more aware of the situation. He took advantage of her... which makes him the bad-guy in this scenario. Your friends are supposed to protect you when you're in a vulnerable state... not take advantage of you at your lowest point. 

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Less drunk doesn't mean not drunk.  And less drunk is debatable.  Some people can be very drunk, but still be coherent and walk and move around fine.  But they are still very impaired.

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The fact that this has sparked such a debate amongst viewers shows that it has been very well executed. It's such a grey area, especially because we know the characters' history.

We know that Tank still has feelings for Bay... she herself knows that. Friend or not, sometimes you need to be aware of these things and act accordingly. Which would mean you don't get wasted with that friend in case those unresolved issues come up at inappropriate times. Case in point.

On the other hand, Tank also knew everything that she was dealing with and I don't think he was particularly sensitive to that. No, it's not his responsibility to take care of her, but we would like to think our friends care enough to do so.

I don't think it's fair to put "all" the blame on him. But for some reason I think do hold him slightly more responsible. I admit, that may be a biased opinion because I am not a big fan of Tank... I never bought that "nice guy" fade.

Definitely looking forward to seeing where it goes.

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The fact that this has sparked such a debate amongst viewers shows that it has been very well executed. It's such a grey area, especially because we know the characters' history.

 

No actually it shows how entrenched rape culture is, and as a society how little we understand the concept of consent. 

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No actually it shows how entrenched rape culture is, and as a society how little we understand the concept of consent. 

 

jtrattray, it puts me in mind of what a prosecutor once told me: That in rape trials where the victim is a woman, the prosecution tries to get men on the jury and the defense tries to get women on the jury. Because by and large, female jurors tend to be far harder on and more judgmental of the victim and more likely to vote for acquittal as a result. The prosecutor felt it was because the whole topic hit too close to home - the female jurors didn't want to think that something like that could happen to them, and so they would find ways to make it the victim's fault that allowed them to assure themselves that rape wouldn't, couldn't happen to them because, "I wouldn't have done that/worn that/gone there..."

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No actually it shows how entrenched rape culture is, and as a society how little we understand the concept of consent. 

I politely disagree. A lot of these cases aren't so clear cut and boil down to a "he said / she said" situation as no-one else is behind those closed doors besides those two people. This is the grey area to which I am referring. If it were a simple case of knowing all the facts and making a decision that's easy enough but never really the case. The debate really comes down to who's story you believe.

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I politely disagree. A lot of these cases aren't so clear cut and boil down to a "he said / she said" situation as no-one else is behind those closed doors besides those two people. This is the grey area to which I am referring. If it were a simple case of knowing all the facts and making a decision that's easy enough but never really the case. The debate really comes down to who's story you believe.

And which other crime to we take people's word for it they didn't commit? What other crime do we not assume the victim is telling the truth when they say they've been a victim of crime?

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And which other crime to we take people's word for it they didn't commit? What other crime do we not assume the victim is telling the truth when they say they've been a victim of crime?

 

 

All of them. Innocent until proven guilty. Then you look to the evidence. In this case, there is no evidence.

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And which other crime to we take people's word for it they didn't commit? What other crime do we not assume the victim is telling the truth when they say they've been a victim of crime?

 

Then there were two crimes committed and they both should be prosecuted for rape.  

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And which other crime to we take people's word for it they didn't commit?

 

Literally any other crime with no eyewitnesses/physical proof/material evidence. And as this thread shows, many people do not take Tank's word at all.

 

What other crime do we not assume the victim is telling the truth when they say they've been a victim of crime?

 

These are kind of odd generalizations. Your phrasing makes it sound like all rape victims are doubted (untrue) or that all rapists are believed to be innocent (also untrue).

 

It really does come down to a case-by-case basis. Just because one party's version of events is questioned, doesn't necessarily mean that that party is doubted or the other party is exonerated.

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Of course Bay didn't think of the possibility of rape until Regina brought it up. As a society we teach girls that it is their responsibility to keep penises (penii?) out of their vaginas. Don't get drunk, don't dress scantily, don't walk alone at night, etc.

 

We paint this picture of dangerous strangers lurking in every shadow, but not until pretty recently did anyone ever warn girls that rapists could be someone who gains your trust and then abuse it. They could be pillars of the community and people who "seem nice". If anything, that's the most common modus operandi for rapists, not random attacks on strangers.

 

So what happens when girls get raped by someone they know? They think "but I wasn't attacked by a boogeyman jumping out of a bush, so it couldn't have been rape. He can't be a rapist, he's my friend! Maybe something is wrong with me, maybe I was sending the wrong signals."

 

But "sending the wrong signals" isn't a crime. Rape is.

 

Maybe people don't have the best judgement when they're impaired, but this bad judgement is reinforced by common ideas like "people have drunk sex all the time" and "one thing leads to another". Far too many people think these ideas are completely okay. Maybe that needs to change. Here's an idea for people who are afraid of being accused of rape: don't have sex with people who are wasted. Drink in moderation to help with the whole "not having sex with people who are wasted" thing.

 

Hey, these are much simpler rules than the long list of "rules for not getting raped" that girls still have to live with. As a side bonus you won't be the guy who passed out in the commons room and had a penis drawn on his face.

 

Tank's reaction to Bay having a problem with what happened was basically "don't go blaming me because you got all wasted and slutty". Real nice. Look at the way he answered her "Did I say yes?" question. "Seemed into it" is not the same as any sort of "yes", and he knows it, and that's when he really starts to realize he effed up big time so he starts making counter-accusations "you're crazy!"

 

Bay didn't even have her mind made up that it was rape. When Regina was so sure the situation Bay described was rape, Bay said "I don't know that I agree with you". She doesn't want to think of herself as a rape victim, she doesn't want to think of her friend as a rapist. She knows these things are huge life changers. Like someone else already mentioned, when she cheated before, she owned up to it. Bay is not the kind of person who lets someone else take the fall to avoid paying for her own mistakes.

 

It's common knowledge that women who accuse someone of rape don't have an easy time, anyway. Every bit of their sexual history would be scrutinized to discredit them. If a woman cheated and want to hide this? The last thing she would do is throw rape accusations around.

Edited by Bec
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