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Tara Ariano

S01.E05: And The Apple Of Discord

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Good episode but it felt a little rushed. Did anyone figure out what that conversation between JL's character and the bad guy (I forget their names, my apologies) was about? Are they brothers, loved the same woman, or is JL's character a mole?

Edited by missbonnie

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Did anyone figure out what that conversation between JL's character and the bad guy (I forget their names, my apologies) was about? Are they brothers, loved the same woman, or is JL's character a mole?

 

My husband and I both have the feeling that they're brothers, but that's just our first reaction. Something about them seemed very similar in that moment, even though they don't look alike. I had a hard time catching a lot of the dialogue again (I need to watch this with headphones; it always seems to be hard to understand), but it sounded to me like Matt Frewer made a remark that made it sound like they've both been around a very, very long time--like maybe hundreds of years? But again, it was hard to understand and I'll have to watch again.

 

I enjoyed this episode; it was breezy and fun, if a little disjointed. The main cast seems to be jelling (gelling?) well, and I thought there was a little bit of chemistry between Flynn and Baird there at the end. 

 

Oh, and I feel old, because Cary Hiroyuki Tagawa looks old, and I remember when he didn't.

Edited by kirinan

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The conversation at the end between JL and Max Headroom? (I can't remember their names either. )I was getting the impression maybe THEY used to be lovers. If so that's a really interesting way to go with the story.

Oh geez if they are brothers then oops and ick on my part.

Edited by MissL
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I'm really tempted to put this in spoilers because I think I'm right and don't want to ruin it for anyone, but it's not really a spoiler merely educated guesswork.  

 

The Fey calls Dulac the Son of Ban.  Which could be King Ban of Benwick, which mean that he would be Lancelot of the Lake or Lancelot Du Lac.

 

This makes a lot of sense when you think about it the Fall of Camelot would be a fall of an Age of Magic.  Dulac's trying to bring it back, and he's willing to do whatever it takes because he feels responsible for the Fall.

 

Who that makes Jenkins has a number of possibilities.  Arthur for sure, but I don't think so.  Given the Crown that seems a bit to on the nose.  A Brother Knight?  for sure perhaps Percival.

 

But if I had to guess I think the most likely suspect given their reaction to each other is that Jenkins is Lancelot's illegitimate son Sir Galahad.

 

Certainly helps explain how the Library got a hold of the Holy Grail.

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My first reaction was that Jenkins and Dulaque might have been lovers, but I guess it could be something else.  I'm sure more of this will come out in the future.  I did find it interesting enough, and probably the most interesting the two characters have been.  John Larroquette has thankfully tone down the scenery chewing these past few episodes.  And, for whatever reason, Matt Frewer's British accent didn't bug me as much this time.

 

I was entertained enough.  Obviously not the first time a show does a "item brings the worst/evil out of characters", but I loved some of the hi-jinks, like Jake taking his love of art way too far, Cassandra using her "mindgrape" for violence (what she did to Lamia totally reminded me of Robert Downey Jr.'s Sherlock movies), and Flynn going on a power trip.  And, of course, Eziekel not being effected, because he doesn't need that apple to bring the worst out of him (although, he really isn't a bad dude, compared to some.) I still strangely finding myself loving Flynn, even if he is so over-the-top.  Again, maybe i just like seeing Noah Wyle have fun, compared to his work on Falling Skies.

 

Actually, this was also the most I enjoyed Lamia.  I think Lesley-Ann Brandt is better at playing confused and not knowing how to handle the craziness, compared to her just being a typical villain character.

 

It doesn't matter; anytime I see him, Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa will always be Shang Tsung to me.  I keep waiting for him to snarl "Your soul is mine!" and then the Mortal Kombat "Finish Him!" follows.

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...Oh, and I feel old, because Cary Hiroyuki Tagawa looks old, and I remember when he didn't.

You mean when he looked hot?elfilm.com-cary-hiroyuki-tagawa-117715.j

There was a lot of talk in this episode about who was and who was not a librarian. As a librarian who has only seen parts of the movies, is there ever any talk of an MLS (Master of Library Science degree) being required to be a librarian? Or is this series populated by characters who, like some college freshmen who get hired to work in the library, will then tell their friends that they are now "librarians"? I was hoping that Ezekiel would at least produce a stolen, framed MLS degree at some point.

ETA: Ezekiel is perhaps the most irritating character I have ever seen on screen.

I thought this episode was kind of meta shoutout to the audience admitting that Ezekiel already was so bad that he couldn't be any worse.

Edited by shapeshifter
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It was the best episode to date for me. Maybe it was the return of Flynn, maybe the lesser role of Ezekiel? Maybe the fact that Eve actually worked this time for me? Maybe the addition of the Library Lore and the Conclave (though shouldn't a conclave theoretically be under lock and key? And Dulac just walked right into it.)

 

What is more, call me hopeless, call me romantic, but even though I refuse to see sparks between Flynn and Eve, I'm all for Cassie and Jake.

Plus, I actually liked an evil Cassandra - maybe not the "killing people" part, but how she put Math to action. Math can be dangerous!

 

Lamia's shock was lovely! Both shocks actually ;) ("What's with this day?!")

 

I'd also like to know more about the entities present on the Conclave: we had Eastern Dragons, Djinn, Fae, Cúchulainn (but who was he representing?)... The tall lady with consonants (?) and a bunch of more, who were not introduced. I'm now very curious.

 

Naturally, the show is a sort of guilty pleasure for me, Sunday Fun and all that. But it's good fun, with only some hints of seriousness in the background. It has potential to be more, even with rather clunky production values.

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With Ezekiel the Library has its very own jar jar binks.  One of the most irritating characters on my TV.  I was hoping he'd get his pizza and choke on it.

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Lamia's shock was lovely! Both shocks actually ;) ("What's with this day?!")

 

 

"What's with this day?!!" will now be my go-to all-encompassing statement of frustration.

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Agreed that it was a great 'wink' to Ezekial not being affected by the apple because he already is "the worst" as demonstrated time and again by his selfishness during pretty much the whole episode.  Liked seeing Cassandra a little more "bad" ass in being able to use math to disable her opponent.  I appreciated the little flirty-wink between Lamia and Jake, which sets up more of a potential relationship between those two, then Jake and Cassandra.

 

Great hypothesis on who Du Lac and Jenkins are, which could very well fit.  Sounds plausible at least.  We never saw Jenkins with either the crown or Excalibur, so he could be Arthur (which is my guess, given he's the most well known and one can easily point to 'bad choices' Arthur made), but Percival or Galahad are definite possibilities too.  Rodgers does have a tendency to do this 'full circle' type story line.

 

I assumed the very tall woman at the Conclave was an Amazon.

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I sort of agree. You can't remove Flynn all together because he is an essential part of the mythology, but for the rest of the cast to get the attention they deserve his presence should be limited. He obviously had to be in the pilot and almost certainly should be in the season finale, but let him be absent from the rest of the season. Flynn should probably be in no more than one or two episodes in a season, so his appearances will be extra special.

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With Ezekiel the Library has its very own jar jar binks.  One of the most irritating characters on my TV.  I was hoping he'd get his pizza and choke on it.

 

 

Ezekiel is perhaps the most irritating character I have ever seen on screen.

 

SO MUCH THIS.  He needs to dial it back several notches.  His mugging and the broad way he plays his character make him look like a clown, especially next to the delightfully subtle JL.

 

I wouldn't mind if they replaced him with another -- BETTER -- actor.

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Oh, and I feel old, because Cary Hiroyuki Tagawa looks old, and I remember when he didn't.

 

Me, too!  I spent most of his scenes trying to figure out where I'd seen him, and then right near the end, I realized that he was Turghan from the 'Stargate SG-1 episode 'Emancipation'.  I know I've seen him in other things and always like him, even when he's playing a bad guy.

 

I agree with having E. Jones dial it back a little.  I like him, but he can be a little much at times.  On the other hand, Jenkins is becoming one of my favorite characters.  I know there is so much about him that we don't know yet (this episode definitely proved it).

Edited by BooksRule

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I was bored last night and decided to give this another try, mostly because Noah Wyle was back.

Nowhere near as god awful as the pilot but not very good. Rebecca Romain needs to go, she doesn't fit the tone of the show even as the "straight man" she has no chemistry with any of the other actors/characters.

The Australian guy is annoying as all hell and not in the quirky annoying way that usually works (see Cassandra).

Cassandra remains the only character I like...I eliminate CK's character because they might as well just call him Eliot, he's a total Leverage clone and while I get that works for Leverage fans it's a major turn off for me because it shows no acting growth or ability in CK (IMO).

Evil Cassandra was a little too OTT for me, took it from fun and quirky to badly acted.

The only really good aspects of the episode were Matt Frewer and John Laroquette, I'm always impressed by both actors, I never give them enough credit.

As for what they were, originally I thought brothers but the departure scene heavily implied lovers. With the "whatever we were" comment and the awkward hug/almost cheek kiss.

This would probably be a good show if they got rid of annoying Ausi guy, Rebecca Romain, and centered it around John Laroquette's character with Matt Frewer as his nemesis/frienemy.

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My husband and I both have the feeling that they're brothers, but that's just our first reaction. Something about them seemed very similar in that moment, even though they don't look alike. I had a hard time catching a lot of the dialogue again (I need to watch this with headphones; it always seems to be hard to understand), but it sounded to me like Matt Frewer made a remark that made it sound like they've both been around a very, very long time--like maybe hundreds of years?...

From io9.com/the-surprise-hero-of-the-librarians-is-john-larroquette-1675945967 (bold added):

And then, as Dulaque is leaving, he and Jenkins have this exchange:

Dulaque: It's not too late you know, you can still join me.

Jenkins: The conclave is over Mr. Dulaque

Dulaque: Of course, our sides have always been chosen for us, haven't they?

Jenkins: No, we choose. a thousand years ago, you know that very moment when you and I stopped being whatever we were.

Dulaque:If I hadn't tried, I'd actually be the monster you think I am. Travel well

Edited by shapeshifter

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Thanks, shapeshifter! The scene makes much more sense to me now (well, other than being able to figure out what their relationship is, but I'm sure that reveal will come before too long).

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I just want whatever gets us more Supervillian Sherlock Holmes-y Linsday Booth, because that was awesome.

Also, this week had both an amazing Buckaroo Banzai reference and Matt Freuer somehow managing to eat pizza in an evil manner, so I want this show to run for 10 years.

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Re-reading those statements by Jenkins (and Dulaque), I still think its a good shot at being Arthur and Lancelot.  It makes me wonder if Judson is Merlin, which I think fits well.  Also, given that it seems that every "guardian" we've seen has been female, maybe the first guardian was Morgana?  Or at least "a" guardian was Morgana/Morgaine/Morgan le Fey.

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I really like this show, but to be honest, I like it better with Flynn. I think his prolonged absence would severely decrease my enjoyment of the show.

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they might as well just call him Eliot, he's a total Leverage clone

 

Eliot would not say "I love this job!" to the team, or need help fending off a bunch of museum security guards, or geek out over a flying sword, or team up with people as unreliable as Ezekiel or Cassandra.

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Too, the Eliot freshest in our mind is fifth season Eliot, and the way he interacted with his adopted family. The Eliot we first met wouldn't have been grounding Cassandra even before she sold him out.

The only common thread I see is that they both like to be underestimated, and they both apparently think presenting themselves as a blue collar southerner is a good way to make that happen.

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Since DuLac was introduced I've been waiting for someone in the show to mention Lancelot, so I like the theory that he was Lancelot and Jenkins was Arthur or one of the other knights. It doesn't mean they weren't lovers.

 

I would be thrilled to bits and pieces if they'd lose both Cassandra and Ezekiel.

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Anything that gets Christian Kane more screen time is a good goal - the cross between Lindsay and Elliott this week was terrific!

(Dan Field & Max Headroom - what an image!)

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I assumed the very tall woman at the Conclave was an Amazon.

 

I thought she was a Valkyrie, given how Ezekiel described her name, something along the line of just a string of consonants.

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I think they need to limit Flynn to a cameo every few episodes, even though I adore Noah Wiley and the original Librarian movies.  This show isn't ABOUT him but, if he keeps turning up, he is going to steal every episode he is in for me.  I think the LITs are an interesting team (even if Cassandra is a turn coat) and I want to see more of them and how they deal with things.  That was half the fun of the original movies....watching Flynn stumble through and try to figure out what the hell he was doing.

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I think I liked this episode the most so far.  Rebecca Romijn didn't bother me at all, which is rare--maybe because she wasn't (badly) kung-fuing her way through a mess of bad guys this time.  The only time I ever got truly annoyed was when EvilCassandra took off her dress to reveal something even worse than her usual ridiculous outfit.  Did the actress do something unspeakable to the wardrobe department to deserve their wrath?  What the hell was she wearing?

 

I liked that they didn't do the swirling cartoons around Cassandra's head when she was doing math in the street (until they did the swirly cartoons later on).  Couldn't care less about the romance between Flynn and Baird. They  barely know each other so I don't understand why TPTB are trying to make that a thing.  And I'm really interested to see what they do with Jenkins and Dulaque.

 

Finally, I loved evil Christian Kane.  I like that he gets to do more on this show than just be growly and mean. That said, I really like it when he's growly and mean so him bitching about the paintings was hilarious--as was his inability to fight off museum guards.  I wouldn't be watching this show if it weren't for him but so far I like it enough not to fast-forward to get to his his scenes.

 

Was I the only one who had trouble understanding the dialogue sometimes?  I had to rewind every so often to figure out what the actors, Noah Wiley in particular, were saying.

Edited by cassandle
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Cassandra can go anytime.  I may be in the minority, but I like Eve.  Usually her kind of character annoys me, but for some reason, she doesn't.   I  like the guys, but they need episodes focusing on them.  At this point, everyone is still a bit vague characterwise.  I'm sure that will change going forward.

 

I like this show.  It's just fun. 

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I feel like the writers might consider this show less a spin-off of the movies than a direct follow-up to them. I've been operating under the assumption that the "Flynn's off somewhere else" setup is just going to be a conceit for this season while they wait for Falling Skies to wrap up, and that he'll be back full-time next year.

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I assumed the very tall woman at the Conclave was an Amazon.

 

I thought she was a Valkyrie, given how Ezekiel described her name, something along the line of just a string of consonants.

 

We don't have a ton of attested Valkyrie names, but we have some, and they're mostly not too long or consonant-y: Skuld, Gunnr, Hildr, Herfjotr, Hrist, Geirskogul, Reginleif, and so on (some of those names are missing really necessary accent marks, but I just don't know how to code them). I'm not as familiar with the canonical Amazons, since that's not really my field (fun, though), but the ones I remember all had vowel-heavy names, like Antiope, Hippolyta, and Penthesilea. If she was meant to be an Amazon, though, her name may have been written in Greek and just interpreted by Ezekiel as a string of consonants. "String of consonants" also seems Eastern European to me at a glance, except for the fact that that's based on modern last names, not mythology. It fits less well with the folklore, from what I can tell. What little I've read in the field has been about rusalki and vilas, who mostly aren't named or retain the vowel-y names of their former lives (Angelina, Katarina, Ravijojla, etc), plus she was very clearly not one of those. Not a very nymph-like gal, that one. Anyone have a Slavic folklore background?

 

So what I'm left with is either A), she was an Amazon with a calling card written in Greek, which stumped Ezekiel (plausible), B) they just liked the visuals of a very tall, stern, athletic-looking woman and went for a joke over a backstory (also plausible), or C) someone in the writers' room has a folklore degree and broke out the specialist knowledge that maybe ten people would ever get (which I've totally done myself before, so, very plausible).

 

I missed a couple of scenes thanks to a pesty kitty- was there one of the Roman dragon flying around, or was that just in the ads and not the episode?

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The signal was breaking up at the end of the show and I could not make out what Baird picked up off Flynn's desk at the very end.  It seemed like a crumpled up piece of paper.  Could anyone make it out?  Thanks.

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The signal was breaking up at the end of the show and I could not make out what Baird picked up off Flynn's desk at the very end. It seemed like a crumpled up piece of paper. Could anyone make it out? Thanks.

It was Flynn's boutonnière

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Personally, I don't mind Flynn showing up every once in a while. What I would like is for Jenkins to disappear because I can't stand John Larroquette and his smugness.

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I want to like this show. I loved Leverage and want to support whatever projects all of those people go on to but this episode was hella annoying. I know the show is going for an air of mystical BSC but I feel like everything is turned up to eleven. It's scooted right past wild fun straight into manic. Ezekial is annoying but the show seems to realize that on some level. Cassandra is the very worst kind of manic pixie dream girl and Evil Cassandra was just every kind of bad guy tic thrown into a jar with a bunch of PCP and whiskey then poured out all over the screen. Flynn...goodness, I don't have the words. I hope Noah took a Rolaids to help digest all that scenery he chewed. Dial this shit back a little okay? A little restraint gives the audience the chance to meet you halfway.

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I feel like the writers might consider this show less a spin-off of the movies than a direct follow-up to them. I've been operating under the assumption that the "Flynn's off somewhere else" setup is just going to be a conceit for this season while they wait for Falling Skies to wrap up, and that he'll be back full-time next year.

 

I am operating under the same assumption.

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centered it around John Laroquette's character with Matt Frewer as his nemesis/frienemy.

gawd help us no, just no.  I would no longer watch.  Laroquette is one of my least favorite actors of all time.  The only time I've like him was when he was on "The Black Sheep Squadron."  The thought of the show centering about him would chase me right off Chris Kane or not.

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It was the best episode to date for me. Maybe it was the return of Flynn, maybe the lesser role of Ezekiel? Maybe the fact that Eve actually worked this time for me? Maybe the addition of the Library Lore and the Conclave (though shouldn't a conclave theoretically be under lock and key? And Dulac just walked right into it.)

 

Usually I take stock in a new show by E5. I'm on board if it's going to be like this. 

 

I am crossing my fingers that TPTB have the basic background with Jenkins and Duluc/whatever established and aren't making them just talk cryptically. 

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Usually I take stock in a new show by E5. I'm on board if it's going to be like this...

Usually 3 epsodes or less is enough for me, but with Santa Bruce Campbell Claus appearing in E3 and then Flynn swashbuckling in on this episode, I have a horrible feeling this is going to be like my marriage: Wake up 8 seasons later and realize I should've bailed before it ever started. I really do not want to watch Ezekiel or Cassandra in the way they are portrayed. It's like marceline says:

...Dial this shit back a little okay? A little restraint gives the audience the chance to meet you halfway.

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Can I just say SO AGREE on Flynn's character traits. It's like Warehouse 13 reincarnated and being led by Doctor Who. The scene in the first episode where he has to choose a door and does the last second tick/change all I thought was "do they think no one in the US watches British TV shows?" And the whole Cassandra mind thing reminds me of Gary from Alphas. And hello? Warehouse 13.

I like the series in a Buffy/Angel/Leverage/Hawaii 5-0 sort of fun fluff way, so don't mind Flynn popping up here and there, but I can tell I'm going to get annoyed if they keep pulling copycat moves from shows that are either still on the air or too recent memories.

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Thanks Morrigan2575 for clearing up what Baird picked up off the desk.  I love the gentle humor on the show, such as the introductory scene of this episode of the dragon awakening, so like a 50's Japanese horror/sci fi movie.

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