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Approach The Bench: Law & Order General Discussion Thread

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Season 16 on ION today

I always like at the end of America Inc when McCoy tears into Melnick for putting her own agenda ahead of her client’s, I always hated Melnick, she was an obnoxious bitch who defended the most unlikable people, and was very self righteous but always willing to do underhanded things and didn’t seem to have her clients best interests at heart, she was one of my least favorite lawyers, easy to hate. 

Next up was Thinking Makes It So, outstanding episode where Fontana shoves the kidnapper’s head in the toilet to find the girl’s location, and Dworkin defends the kidnapper. McCoy and Dworkin’s discussions about Fontana’s actions and the case are very interesting, both are conflicted about the entire situation, as was I, while I understand the desire to get the kidnapped girl back safely by any means, Fontana sticking the guy’s head in the toilet sets a very bad precedent at the least that would allow police to violate suspects rights and lead to the destruction of our constitutional rights, and it was interesting to hear McCoy and Dworkin discuss the difficult issue, both knew there were no easy answers and were conflicted about what to do.

Positive is on now, about the doctor who was trying to cure AIDS by giving the test subjects unapproved drugs, interesting episode but not one of my favorites, not the most original story the franchise had done or the most interesting. It was interesting though to see how angry Rodgers seemed to be when examining the girl who had died, the usually unemotional Rodgers seemed really pissed off.

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On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:02 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Season 16 on ION today

I always like at the end of America Inc when McCoy tears into Melnick for putting her own agenda ahead of her client’s, I always hated Melnick, she was an obnoxious bitch who defended the most unlikable people, and was very self righteous but always willing to do underhanded things and didn’t seem to have her clients best interests at heart, she was one of my least favorite lawyers, easy to hate. 

 

So did I. For all those reasons. It was always about her agenda and not her clients and she was so obnoxious and self-righteous. I love McCoy for tearing into her. She deserve a lot more then that. The worse for me was Open Season. When she deliberately ignored the Judge's ruling which resulted in someone being killed. She didn't care about why the ruling was made or that her client was clearly a danger. She still manages to act like a bitch. She's shocked that she's going to be arrested and mad at McCoy. I can't figure out why he feels bad about what happens to her. She deserved a lot more for what she did. I like that she got shot at the end of the episode.

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On February 28, 2018 at 8:02 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Season 16 on ION today

I always like at the end of America Inc when McCoy tears into Melnick for putting her own agenda ahead of her client’s, I always hated Melnick, she was an obnoxious bitch who defended the most unlikable people, and was very self righteous but always willing to do underhanded things and didn’t seem to have her clients best interests at heart, she was one of my least favorite lawyers, easy to hate.  

"WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK ANYWAY?!"

I waited so long for someone to say those words to that sactimonious bitch. Thank you, Jack. Thank you.

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^^ That was so divine!  I may have cheered when he said that.  I remember rolling my eyes and nearly changing the channel but Jack saved the day.

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Yes it was beautiful when McCoy laid into Melnick at the end of that one, she was such an underhanded sleaze yet she always acted like she was some beacon of morality and was incredibly self righteous, she was basically a female Rey Curtis. I hated how she would act like McCoy was unethical, when she was the actual one who was an unethical bitch who should’ve been disbarred.  Not only was she incredibly unlikable, but she wasn’t entertaining either. I wish she had died at the end of Open Season, she should’ve been stripped of her license after that episode anyway. 

America Inc isn’t one of my favorite episodes, the constant Iraq War centered episodes in those years got old, but McCoy ripping into the bitch made the episode good. Thinking Makes It So was a far superior episode, the debate about the use of force to achieve information was well done and McCoy and Dworkin’s debates were great as always, Dworkin was a far superior lawyer compared to Melnick, and the scene where Fontana dunks Lowe’s head in the toilet was both intense and darkly funny, as well as disturbing and thought provoking.

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On 2/28/2018 at 7:02 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Season 16 on ION today

I always like at the end of America Inc when McCoy tears into Melnick for putting her own agenda ahead of her client’s, I always hated Melnick, she was an obnoxious bitch who defended the most unlikable people, and was very self righteous but always willing to do underhanded things and didn’t seem to have her clients best interests at heart, she was one of my least favorite lawyers, easy to hate. 

Next up was Thinking Makes It So, outstanding episode where Fontana shoves the kidnapper’s head in the toilet to find the girl’s location, and Dworkin defends the kidnapper. McCoy and Dworkin’s discussions about Fontana’s actions and the case are very interesting, both are conflicted about the entire situation, as was I, while I understand the desire to get the kidnapped girl back safely by any means, Fontana sticking the guy’s head in the toilet sets a very bad precedent at the least that would allow police to violate suspects rights and lead to the destruction of our constitutional rights, and it was interesting to hear McCoy and Dworkin discuss the difficult issue, both knew there were no easy answers and were conflicted about what to do.

I never hated Melnick. IDK maybe because I like Tovah Feldshuh and I always enjoyed that L&O had recurring characters. I liked her give and take with Jack. She could be a royal bitch and very often had an agenda. There were definitely episodes were I intensely disliked her. To each his own. ?

I know this is a UO but I liked Fontana and watch Thinking Makes It So any time I see it’s on the schedule. Did not like Borgia in this episode. Actually, I never liked her.  I freaking loved Fontana in Fixed when he treated that stupid woman who was engaged to Jacob Lowenstein like the idiot she was. Criminal Law was good, too. He had an attitude but he was not even close to being the sanctimonious asshole Rey was. I hated that DF was replaced by that stupid model cop. ?????? I loved how Anita treated her with disdain. Loved when she would tell her off like in her first episode. When Anita tells her to watch and learn and then has to tell her, again, I cheer a little inside. What a mistake she was.

Killerz is on TNT today. I know it’s been mentioned here but that girl really is scary creepy. Skoda had her pegged. I always liked Olivet but she was wrong. I always think to myself it was her hormones and pregnancy talking in that episode.

Edited by natalie wood
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20 minutes ago, natalie wood said:

I freaking loved Fontana in Indifference when he treated that stupid woman who was engaged to Jacob Lowenstein

Wrong episode and season. “Indifference” is from season One. The follow up was Fixed,” where Lowenstein was released on parole, season 15.

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Damn it!

19 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Wrong episode and season. “Indifference” is from season One. The follow up was Fixed,” where Lowenstein was released on parole, season 15.

Damn it! I looked it up and still wrote the wrong title name. ?

eta and now it’s Fixed.??

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2 hours ago, natalie wood said:

I never hated Melnick. IDK maybe because I like Tovah Feldshuh and I always enjoyed that L&O had recurring characters. I liked her give and take with Jack. She could be a royal bitch and very often had an agenda. There were definitely episodes were I intensely disliked her. To each his own. ?

I know this is a UO but I liked Fontana and watch Thinking Makes It So any time I see it’s on the schedule. Did not like Borgia in this episode. Actually, I never liked her.  I freaking loved Fontana in Fixed when he treated that stupid woman who was engaged to Jacob Lowenstein like the idiot she was. Criminal Law was good, too. He had an attitude but he was not even close to being the sanctimonious asshole Rey was. I hated that DF was replaced by that stupid model cop. ?????? I loved how Anita treated her with disdain. Loved when she would tell her off like in her first episode. When Anita tells her to watch and learn and then has to tell her, again, I cheer a little inside. What a mistake she was.

Killerz is on TNT today. I know it’s been mentioned here but that girl really is scary creepy. Skoda had her pegged. I always liked Olivet but she was wrong. I always think to myself it was her hormones and pregnancy talking in that episode.

I love a lot of the recurring characters but I always hated Melnick. She was such a self righteous holier than thou bitch who acted like she was a beacon of morals when she was frequently extremely unethical, her clients were always extremely unlikable as well. There was such something about Melnick that made me want to punch her in the face. 

I like Fontana as well, he was unique, edgy and at times difficult but always something different and interesting, he was a great replacement for Briscoe because he didn’t try to be Briscoe, he brought his own, incredibly different and unique style. Thinking Makes It So is an episode I try to watch everytime it is on, excellent, thought provoking episode and like I said before I love McCoy and Dworkin’s conversations, Judge Bradley was also one of my favorite recurring judges and he was good in that episode as well. 

Borgia always irritated me, she is by far my least favorite ADA, so bland yet also incredibly self righteous and sanctimonious, I hated her in Thinking Makes It So but in several others as well, In God We Trust, Bible Story and Age of Innocence come to mind as well, she constantly spewed her religious moralizing and let them influence and bias her decision making. I didn’t care when she was killed off, Rubirosa was far superior and I don’t think the show could’ve survived with Beauty Queen and Borgia on at the same time.

Killerz is a good episode, but I get really fucking pissed off at the whole episode, the sociopath little girl is extremely chilling and Skoda was right on about her, and the girl’s mom, Olivet and the judge were all incredibly stupid, I usually liked Olivet but I hated her in this episode and I loved when Skoda called her soft, she was. And the girl’s mom was a complete dumbass, whining “don’t take her away from me, she’s my best friend”, well how do you think the parents of the boy your “best friend” killed feel you stupid bitch, they will never get to see their son again. I wanted to punch her fucking face in, she really pissed me off, she couldn’t stop the little sociopath from killing before, how would she be able to now? That’s the one episode I really wish L&O had revisited a few years later.

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1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Killerz is a good episode, but I get really fucking pissed off at the whole episode, the sociopath little girl is extremely chilling and Skoda was right on about her, and the girl’s mom, Olivet and the judge were all incredibly stupid, I usually liked Olivet but I hated her in this episode and I loved when Skoda called her soft, she was. And the girl’s mom was a complete dumbass, whining “don’t take her away from me, she’s my best friend”, well how do you think the parents of the boy your “best friend” killed feel you stupid bitch, they will never get to see their son again. I wanted to punch her fucking face in, she really pissed me off, she couldn’t stop the little sociopath from killing before, how would she be able to now? That’s the one episode I really wish L&O had revisited a few years later.

It would have been awesome to see what happened to that little sociopath even though I know she’d have been a killer. That “She’s my best friend” ridiculousness should have made Olivet change her mind. You’re the parent you stupid bitch. A child shouldn’t be your best friend. Ugh!  I liked when L&O would revisit a case like the ones with Larry Miller who was a such a creep in his episodes. 

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27 minutes ago, natalie wood said:

It would have been awesome to see what happened to that little sociopath even though I know she’d have been a killer. 

No “have been” about it. She was a killer and the boy she was charged with killing wasn’t her first.

I also wished the show would have revisited this case if only to throw it in the judge and Olivet’s faces.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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Detective Beauty Queen was a huge mistake.   It was almost like Wolf was responding to all the complaints about not having a female detective with a "Look I gave you one and you didn't like her, what's your problem?"   He made her incompetent but self-righteous.   Yeah that's a winning combination.   

I didn't like Fontana all that much.   Not just because he took over from my beloved Briscoe but he cut too many corners and was too all know it all.  Even when someone was telling him not to do something for 4th Amendment reasons, he would go do it anyway.   Every cop screwed up the 4th amendment issues or we wouldn't have a show.   But Fontana was particularly egregious.

I did like Melnick.   Every show needs a self-righteous smart ass who thinks they are on the moral high ground.   The look in her eyes when Jack told her she would be arrested was some mighty fine acting.   You could see the shock like she never believed her morals would cause her to be arrested, the hurt that Jack would actually do it and the confusion about her future.   I liked her better than that "feminist" lawyer who just barked slogans all day.   But to each their own.  

The great thing about this show?   It had its ups and downs, good cases and bad cases -- JUST LIKE REAL LIFE.   It lasted for 20 years for a reason.   With the replacing cast members, it should be still be on instead of that insane SVU.   And Law & Order LA should never have seen the light of day -- even with Skeet Ulrich being awesome.

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23 minutes ago, natalie wood said:

It would have been awesome to see what happened to that little sociopath even though I know she’d have been a killer. That “She’s my best friend” ridiculousness should have made Olivet change her mind. You’re the parent you stupid bitch. A child shouldn’t be your best friend. Ugh!  I liked when L&O would revisit a case like the ones with Larry Miller who was a such a creep in his episodes. 

I always liked when L&O would revisit cases, they did continuations years later of 3 stories, the aforementioned Coma and Encore episodes with the club owner killing his wives, Conspiracy-Entrapment about the black civil rights organization and the shooting of its leader, and Indifference-Fixed about Jacob Lowenstein. There are plenty of other examples though of past cases being referenced in passing by the characters while discussing the current case, that along with the recurring characters throughout the franchises provide outstanding continuity on the L&O shows, one of the many things that makes this franchise so excellent and high quality. 

28 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No “have been” about it. She was a killer and the boy she was charged with killing wasn’t her first.

I also wished the show would have revisited this case if only to throw it in the judge and Olivet’s faces.

The boy she killed was her first human victim, I know she had killed a cat before that but she had only killed one human. I have no doubt she would kill more though, she was a completely sociopath with not one ounce of remorse, Skoda was right she was a serial killer in the making. I would’ve loved to have seen them revisit this case and see how that little girl turned out as she got older, and I would’ve liked to have them put her away for good and slam Olivet and the judge for helping her get off. 

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23 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Detective Beauty Queen was a huge mistake.   It was almost like Wolf was responding to all the complaints about not having a female detective with a "Look I gave you one and you didn't like her, what's your problem?"   He made her incompetent but self-righteous.   Yeah that's a winning combination.   

I didn't like Fontana all that much.   Not just because he took over from my beloved Briscoe but he cut too many corners and was too all know it all.  Even when someone was telling him not to do something for 4th Amendment reasons, he would go do it anyway.   Every cop screwed up the 4th amendment issues or we wouldn't have a show.   But Fontana was particularly egregious.

I did like Melnick.   Every show needs a self-righteous smart ass who thinks they are on the moral high ground.   The look in her eyes when Jack told her she would be arrested was some mighty fine acting.   You could see the shock like she never believed her morals would cause her to be arrested, the hurt that Jack would actually do it and the confusion about her future.   I liked her better than that "feminist" lawyer who just barked slogans all day.   But to each their own.  

The great thing about this show?   It had its ups and downs, good cases and bad cases -- JUST LIKE REAL LIFE.   It lasted for 20 years for a reason.   With the replacing cast members, it should be still be on instead of that insane SVU.   And Law & Order LA should never have seen the light of day -- even with Skeet Ulrich being awesome.

I think Cassady was about trying to make Milena Govich happen. Since Conviction 2006 with Alex Cabot failed, most of the rest of that cast rebounded - and on existing Wolf shows: Stephanie March popped up again on SVU, Julianne Nicholson landed Det. Megan Wheeler on CI (obviously not the Conviction character, even if in the same universe), and Eric Balfour would be reunited as a guest star with Nicholson on CI, too, as a few examples.

Since they rebounded and Wheeler was a success, I think Wolf thought doing the same for Govich on the Mothership would take, but it didn't. But then, IMO, Wheeler was a lot warmer/more likable and it helped she was partnered with longtime franchise character Mike Logan. (I like Ed Green/Jesse L. Martin, but I think Govich/Cassady was too hard or cold to help her as Logan could for Wheeler.)

And the franchise does/did female detectives fine, with the aforementioned Wheeler, Eames, early Benson.

I think Cassady was just ill conceived and not played by a strong enough actress. Had a female structured like the above successes occurred, I think the Mothership could have done just fine with a female detective. Just not with Govich in the role. (And, technically, Van Buren was a lieutenant, but she was a detective, no doubt, prior, and it's clear the character had a direction and a damned fine actress to bring her to life!)

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In Competence Lenny mentions that Anita worked in the Narcotic’s division before she came over to the 27. I always thought she was a detective at that time. That is one of my favorite episodes that revolves around Anita.

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9 minutes ago, natalie wood said:

In Competence Lenny mentions that Anita worked in the Narcotic’s division before she came over to the 27. I always thought she was a detective at that time. That is one of my favorite episodes that revolves around Anita.

Yeah Van Buren was a Narcotics detective before she became LT, this was mentioned in several episodes, Competence for one and also Myth of Fingerprints. Competence was a terrific episode for Anita I agree.

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I think Cassady was about trying to make Milena Govich happen. Since Conviction 2006 with Alex Cabot failed, most of the rest of that cast rebounded - and on existing Wolf shows: Stephanie March popped up again on SVU, Julianne Nicholson landed Det. Megan Wheeler on CI (obviously not the Conviction character, even if in the same universe), and Eric Balfour would be reunited as a guest star with Nicholson on CI, too, as a few examples.

Since they rebounded and Wheeler was a success, I think Wolf thought doing the same for Govich on the Mothership would take, but it didn't. But then, IMO, Wheeler was a lot warmer/more likable and it helped she was partnered with longtime franchise character Mike Logan. (I like Ed Green/Jesse L. Martin, but I think Govich/Cassady was too hard or cold to help her as Logan could for Wheeler.)

And the franchise does/did female detectives fine, with the aforementioned Wheeler, Eames, early Benson.

I think Cassady was just ill conceived and not played by a strong enough actress. Had a female structured like the above successes occurred, I think the Mothership could have done just fine with a female detective. Just not with Govich in the role. (And, technically, Van Buren was a lieutenant, but she was a detective, no doubt, prior, and it's clear the character had a direction and a damned fine actress to bring her to life!)

Cassady was both poorly written and played by a wooden actress who had no chemistry with anyone. The franchise did have good female detectives, both Van Buren and Eames were awesome, but Cassady was a terrible, dull character, made even worse by her incompetence, she simply wasn’t qualified to be in Manhattan Homicide, Van Buren knew this, but the police brass put her in there because she had gotten good press. I loved whenever Van Buren ripped her for her stupid decisions, especially in her first and last episodes.

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1 hour ago, natalie wood said:

In Competence Lenny mentions that Anita worked in the Narcotic’s division before she came over to the 27. I always thought she was a detective at that time. That is one of my favorite episodes that revolves around Anita.

If memory serves Detectives Curtis came from Organized Crime, Lupo from Intelligence, Bernard from Internal Affairs , Tutola of SVU  from an undercover narcotics and Wheeler from undercover something. To go with Cassidy being promoted to homicide for winning a gunfight. I think all the rest where already homicide detectives going in.

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13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I always liked when L&O would revisit cases, they did continuations years later of 3 stories, the aforementioned Coma and Encore episodes with the club owner killing his wives, Conspiracy-Entrapment about the black civil rights organization and the shooting of its leader, and Indifference-Fixed about Jacob Lowenstein. There are plenty of other examples though of past cases being referenced in passing by the characters while discussing the current case, that along with the recurring characters throughout the franchises provide outstanding continuity on the L&O shows, one of the many things that makes this franchise so excellent and high quality. 

I liked when they did that too. They didn't have to do it for all of them of course. But some really would have been nice to be revisit. I loved watching Coma and Encore. Conspiracy and Entrapment, and Indifference-Fixed. It also would make sense that sometimes they would see some people again. 

Quote

The boy she killed was her first human victim, I know she had killed a cat before that but she had only killed one human. I have no doubt she would kill more though, she was a completely sociopath with not one ounce of remorse, Skoda was right she was a serial killer in the making. I would’ve loved to have seen them revisit this case and see how that little girl turned out as she got older, and I would’ve liked to have them put her away for good and slam Olivet and the judge for helping her get off. 

 

That episode ticks me of so much I can't watch it. I get not wanting throw someone that young in jail but how on Earth is doing absolutely nothing a good idea? Let's not put her in juvie or a mental hospital, or even make sure she has see a qualify therapist. Nope, the best solution for at best a clearly troubled girl and at worse a psychopath and future serial killer is to...do nothing. Send her back to her mother, cross our fingers and hope for the best? Seriously? How the hell is that a good idea? How can anyone think its a good idea?  If that didn't work the first time its not going to work again. I hope the next victim's family sues the judge and Olivet. It also bugs me that not only are they not taking the current or future victims into account all the worrying about what's best for the girl and somehow don't realize those are what's best for the girl. She needs to be locked up somewhere with professional competent doctors.  That is what's best for her! Its not best for her to send her back home with her mother and zero consequences or help. She'll kill again who knows how many times before she ends up arrested and spending the rest of her life in prison.       

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13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The boy she killed was her first human victim, I know she had killed a cat before that but she had only killed one human.

That they know of. That's right, I'm sticking to my theory that she's killed another human boy before and the cops just didn't find out. She was just too stone cold for me to believe otherwise.

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2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Send her back to her mother, cross our fingers and hope for the best?

Don't forget the judge ordered a standing weekly appointment with the mother.   Of course, if Mom fails to show up -- which she most likely won't show -- there was no mention of consequences.   Does Mom get locked up for contempt?   What about the kid then?

Yeah that one was wrong.  She KILLED a child.   She needed more than a Mom's promises and judge keeping track of mom.   There should have been at the least in patient therapy ordered.   Even if it was Olivet's softer approach of talk therapy over drugs and/or incarceration.  

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I hated that one, too.  They don't want to believe a young girl could kill a boy for no reason, already be irredeemable, so they do nothing.  They take the stance of ignoring it and hoping it goes away.  Idiots.  I really wanted a follow-up on this one, too.   Heck, I don't watch the Chicago Fire/PD/Med series but if this somehow was revisited there I'd watch.

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Season 17 on ION today, this season was so much lower quality than the rest of the seasons it’s amazing, Beauty Queen detective was terrible, and the stories just weren’t as good, lots of weaker writing and cases, along twists for nothing other than shock value, a constant theme of the season seemed to be holding someone else who didn’t commit the murder but was loosely involved responsible for the murder someone else committed, it got tiresome and it’s not a trope I like in the first place.

One episode I did like was Deadlock, where the mass murderer escapes and shoots up the classroom and then gets killed by the father of one of the victim’s, with the politically ambitious attorney facilitating it and not acting in her client’s best interests. That was a good episode, very fast paced and intense first half, and interesting second half, I loved McCoy’s closing argument against viligante justice talking about how it leads to lawlessness, it was a terrific speech and that was McCoy’s last great closing argument as he went to the DA’s office and out of the courtroom at the end of the season. 

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On 3/4/2018 at 5:23 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I love a lot of the recurring characters but I always hated Melnick. She was such a self righteous holier than thou bitch who acted like she was a beacon of morals when she was frequently extremely unethical, her clients were always extremely unlikable as well. There was such something about Melnick that made me want to punch her in the face.

I'll give Melnick a tiny bit of credit for representing Judith Sandler in Survivor. That was the only time I ever came close to liking her, but unlike most of the defendants on the show, Judith was pretty much goaded into killing the coin dealer's friend.

On 3/4/2018 at 10:32 PM, natalie wood said:

In Competence Lenny mentions that Anita worked in the Narcotic’s division before she came over to the 27. I always thought she was a detective at that time. That is one of my favorite episodes that revolves around Anita.

When Abbie shows up at the start of the ninth season, Anita asks either Rey or Lennie who the riding ADA was since Jamie had left, and she already knew who Abbie was and that she could help sort out the issue of getting a search warrant authorized. Just a small touch, but one of the things I loved about the Mothership, making it seem  like a realer situation.

Another small touch I appreciate is in Whose Monkey Is It, Anyway?, which was on Sundance tonight. The defendant's mother comes into Jack's office to talk about offering her son a plea deal, and Jack gets up from his desk and puts on his jacket, which is hanging on the back of his chair. Just strikes me as respectful towards her, that he'd put on his suit jacket when she comes into his office.

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I always liked that about the DAs. They stood up for visitors, buttoned their suit jackets, and called both clients and criminals by formal address (sir, madam, Mr., Ms., etc.). I know it's not popular, but to me a little sincere formality is a breath of fresh air.

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Ben Stone was the one who always called people “sir” and could make it sound like an insult when doing it to someone he despised, that was his trademark. McCoy never did that really, neither did the others. 

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McCoy used Mr. and Mrs. alot.   but he was less formal with the opposing counsel.   Which is normal.   In court, my opposing counsel is Mr./Ms. or "opposing counsel."   I get called "opposing counsel" A LOT but my real last name is difficult to pronounce.   Judges call me "counsel."  Everyone knows I am cool with it.    Off the record, I am "merylinkid."  Except the clerks.   Even if I see them on the street, I am Ms. so and so.  Despite my telling them not to.

McCoy always made time for the victim's family.   He always talked to them.   He understood their pain.   He couldn't always get them the justice they wanted, but he explained that to them.   And sometime that meeting changed his mind.   He was inclined to let that Republican Housewife from the Burbs off for his 1960s bank robbery because "it was the 60's"  until he talked to the cop's widow.   Then he realized it wasn't just a protest, it was a murder like any other he prosecuted.  

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Watched "Endurance" this morning, which was Nora's first episode. My jaw literally dropped when she lectured Jack about not letting any sympathy for the defendant get in the way of doing his job. You mean the way you literally did the rest of your time on this show, Nora?!

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Nora was an incredibly soft DA, always encouraging McCoy to go easy on the defendants, she was frequently softer than Serena and that is saying something, she was purely ideological and had none of the practicality necessary to be a DA, she seemed to make decisions based on her personal views, and she let McCoy take the lead a lot as well, she never gave him direct orders. One reason I love Teenage Wasteland is that it’s interesting to see Nora forced to make a major decision and going against her personal views, she was usually indecisive and let her personal views dictate her decisions. Overall though she was a soft and bland DA, no personality compared to Schiff, Branch and McCoy.

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22 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Nora was an incredibly soft DA, always encouraging McCoy to go easy on the defendants, she was frequently softer than Serena and that is saying something, she was purely ideological and had none of the practicality necessary to be a DA, she seemed to make decisions based on her personal views, and she let McCoy take the lead a lot as well, she never gave him direct orders. One reason I love Teenage Wasteland is that it’s interesting to see Nora forced to make a major decision and going against her personal views, she was usually indecisive and let her personal views dictate her decisions. Overall though she was a soft and bland DA, no personality compared to Schiff, Branch and McCoy.

Was that the one where they got the death penalty for that teen? I seem to recall her saying that it was too harsh; he was too young; he still had a chance to turn himself around; or something like that. I try not to think about the Nora years.

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I watched the one the other night about the school shooter. Maybe all the shootings colored my view (to be fair I had the same opinion then but maybe that was colored by Columbine.) The one where Jamie Ross comes back to defend the boy. Nora seemed shocked at the idea of McCoy or Carmichael wanting to throw the kid in jail for the max. She didn't seem to understand why they were against the idea of his parents paying some treatment center. I might understand if she was coming at it like it was against her beliefs. But it really came off more like she had no idea what her job was. There is no way she shouldn't have been aware what the law was or how it would look by agreeing to the treatment center. There's no way Adam or Branch wouldn't have know exactly what the law and sentence was or how much it would look like they were favoring the defendant because his parents had money. They both sounded like they knew what their job was even though they didn't agree with it. Nora never really seemed to. Listening to her go on and on about locking the boy up at sixteen. Thank God Abbie kept reminding her of his crime. He shot up a school. He killed four people. Jamie annoyed me too 'we need solutions' how would sending the boy off there would be a solution?  There was no assigned time or guarantee that he wouldn't get released down the road.  No one would answer that question.         

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6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Was that the one where they got the death penalty for that teen? I seem to recall her saying that it was too harsh; he was too young; he still had a chance to turn himself around; or something like that. I try not to think about the Nora years.

Yeah that was the one where the sociopath teenager brutally killed the Chinese deliveryman with his friends, and Nora decided to seek the death penalty against her despite personally not wanting to. That’s one of my favorite episodes for many reasons, it’s one of the only times we really see Nora having to make a major decision as the DA, and it’s a very interesting legal debate with both McCoy and the defense attorney from Texas, Stanton, making strong arguments for their case, I thought the guy did deserve the needle given how brutal the murder was the fact that the defendant was a sociopath with a history of violence, but it was a very interesting and well done debate about both the case and the death penalty and any Briscoe/Green investigation is good.

The Nora years aren’t my favorite because of how dull and soft Nora was as DA, absolutely no personality and was way too ideologically based to be a DA but there are a lot of good episodes in them, especially in season 11, and the Briscoe/Green are my favorite detectives and the first half of any episode with them is worth watching.

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On 3/11/2018 at 6:37 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah that was the one where the sociopath teenager brutally killed the Chinese deliveryman with his friends, and Nora decided to seek the death penalty against her despite personally not wanting to. That’s one of my favorite episodes for many reasons, it’s one of the only times we really see Nora having to make a major decision as the DA, and it’s a very interesting legal debate with both McCoy and the defense attorney from Texas, Stanton, making strong arguments for their case, I thought the guy did deserve the needle given how brutal the murder was the fact that the defendant was a sociopath with a history of violence, but it was a very interesting and well done debate about both the case and the death penalty and any Briscoe/Green investigation is good.

The Nora years aren’t my favorite because of how dull and soft Nora was as DA, absolutely no personality and was way too ideologically based to be a DA but there are a lot of good episodes in them, especially in season 11, and the Briscoe/Green are my favorite detectives and the first half of any episode with them is worth watching.

This was the episode where Nora had a round table with all her ADAs about the going for the death penalty, yes? I liked that there was a discussion from differing POVs not just Nora, Jack, and Abbie’s. It was a pretty heinous act/murder on the part of that young man and the kids with him. 

I just watched Coma with Larry Miller as the comedy club owner. Such a smug, slimy, bottom of the barrel character. It’s so hard to believe any woman would marry him and be fooled by that oh so fake affect. I’m not a fan as I mentioned and this episode only confirms my dislike.

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1 hour ago, natalie wood said:

This was the episode where Nora had a round table with all her ADAs about the going for the death penalty, yes? I liked that there was a discussion from differing POVs not just Nora, Jack, and Abbie’s. It was a pretty heinous act/murder on the part of that young man and the kids with him. 

I just watched Coma with Larry Miller as the comedy club owner. Such a smug, slimy, bottom of the barrel character. It’s so hard to believe any woman would marry him and be fooled by that oh so fake affect. I’m not a fan as I mentioned and this episode only confirms my dislike.

Yeah that’s the episode where we saw the discussion between a lot of ADA’s about whether they should seek the death penalty or not, I liked that scene a lot as well, nice to see the perspectives of other DA’s consulting on the case. The murder was incredibly heinous and senseless, ME Rodgers testified in depth about the brutality of the murder at the sentencing hearing and McCoy did a nice job of pointing out all the sickening details, I don’t think the killer was remorseful at all, only sorry he got caught, I was in full support of him getting the death sentence although I thought Stanton made a compelling argument for his client. 

The club owner guy from Coma/Encore oozed slime, that was a storyline I’m happy they revisited. Coma was a good episode but overall I found the storylines in season 5 to be subpar compared to most other L&O seasons, there were some excellent episodes but more dull/boring ones than in most seasons as well, for example Switch and Seed are 2 of the most boring L&O episodes ever.

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Oooh watching Competence which as I have said is one of my favorite Anita episodes. That kid was such a shit. Lying and threatening the young girl with special needs. Makes me angry ????every time I watch. He knew what he was doing and deserved to be found guilty. Briscoe and Logan did a great job getting the girl to show them where to find the gun. IAB pissed me off, too, with the insinuations that Anita wasn’t deserving of her position. Anita was great on the stand with the Grand Jury and with the mother whose son was killed.???

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Are there any cops the higher ups did like? They didn't like Van Buren, Goren (who, while he had an odd style, did get the job done!), Logan... Seems the higher ups didn't like anyone, really!

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1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Seems the higher ups didn't like anyone, really!

That was an L & O trope.    The Higher ups were all corrupt, CYAers.   IAB was the "rat squad."   Our intrepid heroes (for whichever show) were the only decent cops on the whole force.

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11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Are there any cops the higher ups did like? They didn't like Van Buren, Goren (who, while he had an odd style, did get the job done!), Logan... Seems the higher ups didn't like anyone, really!

Yo! Only Original Recipe characters here! ???? They liked Cragen, I think. But they came around to supporting Van Buren in the last season.

10 hours ago, merylinkid said:

That was an L & O trope.    The Higher ups were all corrupt, CYAers.   IAB was the "rat squad."   Our intrepid heroes (for whichever show) were the only decent cops on the whole force.

True. But as I stated above, I think they replaced that one ASSHOLE at IPP, who was played by Jude Cicollela. But then in the last season, there was another one, different character, who suggested Anita use marijuana for her chemo. He had used it himself when he was going through it or something. But they all unanimously HATED Logan, which made me HATE THEM ALL.

16 hours ago, natalie wood said:

I just watched Coma with Larry Miller as the comedy club owner. Such a smug, slimy, bottom of the barrel character. It’s so hard to believe any woman would marry him and be fooled by that oh so fake affect. I’m not a fan as I mentioned and this episode only confirms my dislike.

Well, who knows what he was like when they first married. But I love Larry Miller, and I thought he was FANTASTIC in this role. I find that a lot of comedians who do the serious roles (Darell Hammond, Stephen Colbert (CI)) as killers, really knock it out of the park. Even Samantha Bee did a turn.  Or was that on SVU?

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The club owner guy from Coma/Encore oozed slime, that was a storyline I’m happy they revisited. Coma was a good episode but overall I found the storylines in season 5 to be subpar compared to most other L&O seasons, there were some excellent episodes but more dull/boring ones than in most seasons as well, for example Switch and Seed are 2 of the most boring L&O episodes ever.

I have a special place for Season Five because it was Chris Noth's final season, and it's no secret I LOVE him and his character Michael Logan, who both got fucked over but good. I mean, I don't know how realistic it is, but having to work in Staten Island for 10 YEARS for punching a lowly councilman?

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5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I have a special place for Season Five because it was Chris Noth's final season, and it's no secret I LOVE him and his character Michael Logan, who both got fucked over but good. I mean, I don't know how realistic it is, but having to work in Staten Island for 10 YEARS for punching a lowly councilman?

I can buy this. Dirty politics, power. It fits.

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7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yo! Only Original Recipe characters here! ???? They liked Cragen, I think. But they came around to supporting Van Buren in the last season.

True. But as I stated above, I think they replaced that one ASSHOLE at IPP, who was played by Jude Cicollela. But then in the last season, there was another one, different character, who suggested Anita use marijuana for her chemo. He had used it himself when he was going through it or something. But they all unanimously HATED Logan, which made me HATE THEM ALL.

Well, who knows what he was like when they first married. But I love Larry Miller, and I thought he was FANTASTIC in this role. I find that a lot of comedians who do the serious roles (Darell Hammond, Stephen Colbert (CI)) as killers, really knock it out of the park. Even Samantha Bee did a turn.  Or was that on SVU?

I have a special place for Season Five because it was Chris Noth's final season, and it's no secret I LOVE him and his character Michael Logan, who both got fucked over but good. I mean, I don't know how realistic it is, but having to work in Staten Island for 10 YEARS for punching a lowly councilman?

But I thought Mike could have gone back to Manhattan before he went to CI. Deakins mentions that Anita had tried to get him back several times. IDK if she was shut down by 1PP or if Logan didn’t want to screw with that shit. He did have an attitude. I loved him but TIIC at 1PP did not. Am I remembering this correctly?

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5 minutes ago, natalie wood said:

But I thought Mike could have gone back to Manhattan before he went to CI. Deakins mentions that Anita had tried to get him back several times. IDK if she was shut down by 1PP or if Logan didn’t want to screw with that shit. He did have an attitude. I loved him but TIIC at 1PP did not. Am I remembering this correctly?

Yes, 1PP refused to bring Mike back to Homicide at the 2-7. It was a way to explain Noth's absence and to also bring him back in to the Law & Order Family--this time at Major Case. Of course, we NEVER SAW or HEARD Van Buren call and try to get him back.

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Yeah on CI Deakins said that Van Buren had tried to get Logan back to Manhattan homicide but the higher ups wouldn’t allow it. I have a feeling that Deakins was able to get Logan to Major Case after the events of the CI episode Stress Position where Logan helped uncover the case of the guards keeping secret prisoners. 

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11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

True. But as I stated above, I think they replaced that one ASSHOLE at IPP, who was played by Jude Cicollela. But then in the last season, there was another one, different character, who suggested Anita use marijuana for her chemo. He had used it himself when he was going through it or something. But they all unanimously HATED Logan, which made me HATE THEM ALL.

To be fair Logan could be a cocky SOB who had some issues with authority so it's not surprising that the bosses didn't appreciate Logan as much as you did. Even for Van Buren he was something of an acquired taste...

 

Quote

Well, who knows what he was like when they first married. But I love Larry Miller, and I thought he was FANTASTIC in this role. I find that a lot of comedians who do the serious roles (Darell Hammond, Stephen Colbert (CI)) as killers, really knock it out of the park. Even Samantha Bee did a turn.  Or was that on SVU?

Nope that was on the mothership's final season where she played the talk show host having an affair with one of her staffers. During the final years of the show The Daily Show seemed to be their go to source when they wanted a loud mouth a-hole. Jason Jones also played an obnoxious talk show host and Rob Corddry played the guy with web site publicly shaming people. And of course Aasif Mandvi was on like 37 times, but most of those were before Jon Stewart hired him.

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16 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Jason Jones also played an obnoxious talk show host

I thought he was just an obnoxious asshole reporter! Always sticking a ? in Jack’s face!

Oh without a doubt, Logan was a hothead* and he was an ass to Van Buren when she first came on, that I will concede. But I’ll take 10 Logans over any one Rey or Cassidy!??

*was typing from my phone and meant hothead.

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I never found Logan to be a jerk, a hot head for sure and his relationship witn Van Buren wasn’t the best, but I never found him to be a jerk.

Watched season 18 yesterday on ION, the show gained a new life in this season with the additions of Cutter, Lupo and then Bernard, and McCoy becoming DA, it was a breath of fresh air for the show after the terrible season 17 and the writing improved somewhat as well, season 17 was the nadir of the show and it improved slowly after that becoming excellent again in seasons 19-20. 

One episode that I really like from that season is Illegal, it’s very interesting to another prosecutor working on a case in Lathem and I love seeing McCoy chew him out and fire him after tanking the grand jury proceedings and I like how they bring up past cases that McCoy has prosecuted and then seeing McCoy take the stand and defend his character, very unique episode in those regards and a good episode for McCoy establishing him in his new role as DA.

Saw Betrayal as well and I love seeing McCoy and Cutter take Olivet down a peg, Olivet could always be rather holier than thou and I liked seeing her get taken down after her self righteous attitude with McCoy and Cutter. I did find the episode to have a big plot hole with the prosecutors not realizing that Meredith was the town the victim and his wife visited and not a woman he was sleeping with sooner, it would seem like if they couldn’t uncover “Meredith’s” identity and then started digging into their past given the wife’s defense, it would seem like they would find that out sooner that Meredith was the town in New Hampshire they visited, they just wanted a twist at the end, so I found that part weak but I liked the episode overall. 

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14 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I never found Logan to be a jerk, a hot head for sure and his relationship witn Van Buren wasn’t the best, but I never found him to be a jerk.

I gave you a like for this line! 

Because I didn't care for Jack telling Mike about Olivet and Logan* I was fully expecting Noth to show up and pop Jack one. Especially since in the movie that never happened**, everyone except Van Buren, treated Logan as if he was shit they were trying to wipe off from their shoes. Even Lennie! 

*It was TOTALLY Mike Logan that Olivet had a relationship with, and though a technicality, it was AFTER she was done treating him after Max's murder. I remember over on TWoP, we ALL were saying "Elizabeth and Mike TOTALLY DID IT!!!"

**Exiled: A Law & Order Movie

Me: THAT NEVER HAPPENED, I TELL YOU!!!

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Exiled was TRASH!!!!!!!! I hated how they threw Profaci under the bus, such a cheap shock value twist and a disgraceful exit for an underrated, likable recurring character, and it was also completely unlike L&O, a lot of pointless filler with Logan riding the ferry and his relationship with the victim’s sister. Also everyone seemed a bit OOC besides Logan and Cragen, and there was no legal stuff, McCoy’s brief scene was just an afterthought so they could have him make an appearance. 

I’m unsure if Logan and Olivet slept together or not, I know it’s a popular theory but Olivet counseled a lot of cops so it could’ve been any of them, I liked that they left it ambiguous. And I liked McCoy and Cutter taking her down a notch, like I say she was very self righteous with her criticisms of how McCoy and Cutter were prosecuting the case and I really disliked how morally self righteous she acted and I think it was right for the prosecution to use her previous affair with a patient to impeach her credibility after all her talk about how terrible it was for a therapist to have an affair with a patient. And if Logan did sleep with Olivet we have no idea when it started, we don’t know how long he saw her after Greevey’s murder or when their affair started if they slept together. 

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If anyone still watches the show on WE, a heads up: While it is remaining all day and night on Tuesdays, starting on Wednesday, March 28th, it's back, sharing the day with CI, which runs 'til 5:00 p.m. ET, and then the Mothership is on the rest of the evening.

I don't know what happened with Madam Secretary, but it was on a mere two weeks before WE reinstated the Mothership/CI.

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I’m glad L&O is coming back on Wednesday’s, that means it will be on on 2 channels, ION and WE, so I can choose what episode I want to watch. 

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Custody was on Sundance tonight, goddamn that episode pisses me off. Not as anger inducing as Manhood or Killerz but still it pisses me off, I hated the racist defendant and the racist “expert” who said that the kid would be screwed up because he would be placed with white parents and I loved McCoy asking him if placing him with white parents was worse than his mom smoking crack while pregnant with him. I also was very irritated with Robinette for his race baiting and I usually really liked Robinette, but he pissed me off in this one.

Slave is on now, and I love seeing Van Buren berate Rey Curtis’ smug hypocritical ass when he lets the guy hit his kid in the interrogation room, that guy was out of line and Curtis basically saying the guy had a right to hit his kid was disgusting, not surprising at all from the moralizing hypocrite Curtis though. I loved seeing Van Buren rip him for it, Briscoe as well. Van Buren was awesome, Curtis was an asswipe.

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