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S04.E10: Fall

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Its different.  Peter Pan  is more modern than other tales and Blackbeard is part of the original works.  Once Upon a Time didn't cheat and bring him in.  Captain Hook is described as "boatswain to Blackbeard."

 

I still don't like it. Blackbeard is just too much of a real person to me. I mean, I've seen artifacts from his ship and been to the beach where it's known he had a pirate gathering. There's no other character on the show where you can be somewhere and say, "It's a fact that Character X stood on this beach" or "This is the exact spot where his ship sank." I mean, you could be in Sherwood Forest and say, "Maybe there was a real person named Robin Hood who ran around here, but there's no proof, so we don't know for sure."

 

And now my annoyance extends to J.M. Barrie for using Blackbeard. He started it all! :)

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I still don't like it. Blackbeard is just too much of a real person to me. I mean, I've seen artifacts from his ship and been to the beach where it's known he had a pirate gathering. There's no other character on the show where you can be somewhere and say, "It's a fact that Character X stood on this beach" or "This is the exact spot where his ship sank."

Same here, Wilmington, Beaufort and Okracoke Island, NC! He didn't die walking the plank of the Jolly Roger (okay he was saved by a mermaid apparently). Even if a lot of his legend was just that, in real life he was also much more menacing-looking than this Blackbeard. Why isn't his beard braided with ribbons and smoldering locks? Where's the Queen Anne's Revenge?

 

But in the spirit of suspension of disbelief, I am trying to look at him like other legendary/historical figures. All I'm coming up with is Johnny Appleseed and Santa Claus, and we don't know nearly as much about their real lives as Blackbeard.

 

That said, I first became interested in pirate-lore when I  rode the Pirates of the Caribbean and was allowed to buy a souvenir book from the gift shop when I was about 7 years old. Half of the book was about the ride itself, and the other half was about real pirates such as Blackbeard. If they're going to go full-on Caribbean at some point, I hope they include Anne Bonney and Mary Read in there somewhere (also real people, but less known about their true histories).

Edited by ABitOFluff
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I just realized how everyone could have gotten over the wall: Tiny! Regina just had to un-magic him and he'd be his giant-y self. He could lift folks over the wall and give people somewhat of a chance. The Billowing Clouds of Curse tend to go in a straight line, even if they spread out a bit. Like I yell at folks on cop shows all the time, "Quit running in front of it, run off to the side! Stop being in front of it!"

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I just realized how everyone could have gotten over the wall: Tiny!

 

Judging by how the wall grew when David tried to pick at it, and even more just when Hook looked at the waterscape wrong, then perhaps the ice wall magically knows when somebody's trying to go over, and it would outgrow even Tiny?

Although I'm kind of drawing a blank on motivation why Ingrid would want to keep everybody in town that she doesn't actually care about either way? I mean, to show Emma and Elsa that their nearest and dearest family have hatred deep down in their hearts like Idunn/Gerta had for Ingrid...maybe. But to everybody else, Ingrid could just say, "Leave me alone with my new family that loves me or live in an eternal winter that'll make Canada's nippiest day feel like the Sahara." There goes the neighborhood.

Also, since when did Gold care about Henry? Is Henry like Baelfire v.2.0 to him?

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HeimrArnadalr I just wanted to give you kudos for an exceptionally well placed Beauty and the Beast quote.

 

I've described this episode as a "place setting episode." I liked the Arendelle stuff (okay mostly I was happy to have confirmation the Hansicle did get thawed and he wasn't really most sincerely dead and that Ariel got a shout-out) but it felt like 90% of the present day stuff could have been covered in a quick montage. I wonder if some material initially meant for this episode was pulled out and put in the extended two-parter because it felt very thin. 

Thanks, I was wondering if anyone would get that.

 

I definitely think this episode was meant just to set the stage for the curse's arrival. I'm not sure what could have been pulled out and put in the two-parter, though. As I recall most of that episode dealt with Emma trying to get rid of, and then accept, her powers. Possibly that storybook page thing could've originally been planned for this episode; maybe then Snow, Charming, and Regina could've hurried to find Emma instead of taking a leisurely stroll, and then in this episode Regina finds out... whatever the point of the extra page is, but is unable to act on it due to the spell.

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I don't think Hook is immune (he said he was going to chain himself to the docks) and Neal probably isn't either but there's not much he can do in any case. 

He can scream. I was picturing him spewing his hatred in a constant stream of shrieking that would eventually drive even someone immune to the spell to take drastic action anyway, because a baby who won't stop crying truly is maddening.

 

Also, baby talons are surprisingly sharp.

Edited by kingshearte
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More of a set up episode than anything else but pretty enjoyable nonetheless though.

Kind of seemed like Mary margaret was being affected by the shattered sight even before the end scene or was that me? I did like her handing the baby over to Emma though.

Rumple is okay as the baddie but I am hoping for a suitable comeuppance for him though. Like Ingird going back on her word/exposing his treachery.

Meh on everything with Hook really.

Nice to briefly see the Blue Fairy again.

Elsa's reunion with Anna and Kristoff was nice. Didn't expect Hans and BlackBeard to be working together though.

Regina/Robin, still not caring about them, 7/10

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This bugs the crap out of me, too. He's different from every other character to me for this reason. We know who he was, what his crimes were, and when and how he died. The wreck of his ship has been found. He pirated the waters of the Caribbean and Atlantic, not the waters of the Enchanted Forest. There's no "steeped in legend" aspect about a person who may or may not have existed; he EXISTED. It's like if the show brought on Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon. No, I do not like the inclusion of Blackbeard on the show at all.

OT: How do you feel about Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Anastasia, or even Robin Hood (isn't there still debate whether he was real/ based on someone who was real)? Just curious.

I'm fine with BB being on the show. It doesn't bug me that he was real. Charles Mesure does good with what he gets.

Anyways, can't wait to see what the Snowig situation is going to be like. Snow definitely looked affected by the spell, but David had more of a worried(?) look on his face. Hopefully the next episode is a good one. It is the penultimate, after all.

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There's no indication that the Blackbeard on the show is Edward Teach, the real-world Blackbeard from our world. "Blackbeard" is a pretty generic piratey nickname. In fact, I would guess that there have been a few other people in our world who got called "Blackbeard" but who didn't become famous. So I just figure that the Blackbeard on the show is some guy with a black beard rather than "the" Blackbeard. His name is probably something like Robert Smith (or Jones?).

 

Even "Captain Hook" is a descriptive nickname that could apply to other people. In the book his name was James Hook. This one is Killian Jones. Are they actually meant to be the same person?

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OT: How do you feel about Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Anastasia, or even Robin Hood (isn't there still debate whether he was real/ based on someone who was real)? Just curious.

 

OT: Robin Hood is fine to me, because there's so much nebulousness about whether he was a real person, and even if he was, probably 99% of what we "know" about him is fiction. So I consider Robin Hood a legend -- the same with Mulan and King Arthur. The others I wouldn't like, because they're also concretely real people who we know a lot of facts about their life and death.

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Even "Captain Hook" is a descriptive nickname that could apply to other people. In the book his name was James Hook. This one is Killian Jones. Are they actually meant to be the same person?

 

Clearly Hook and Blackbeard are meant to evoke their literary counterparts.

 

(Yes, ITA Blackbeard was a real person, but it was the largely mythologized aspects of his story that many people think of when they hear "Blackbeard.") 

 

You can call him "Killian Jones" or "Stanislaw Brzozowski," but by attaching this Captain Hook to Neverland, Pan, the crocodile, the Jolly Roger, Tinkerbelle, the showrunners are trying to make you think about the Peter Pan character...then twisting that character to fit the core conceit of the show that we don't know the "real" story of these fairytale/legendary characters.

 

Sadly, the "real" stories are somewhat boring and the characters have the same texture as uncooked meatloaf, but that's a different subject for another time.

Edited by Amerilla

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Sadly, the "real" stories are somewhat boring and the characters have the same texture as uncooked meatloaf, but that's a different subject for another time.

That must be why the legends were made.

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"OT: How do you feel about Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Anastasia, or even Robin Hood (isn't there still debate whether he was real/ based on someone who was real)? Just curious."

 

I think it would be interesting twist in that all the characters in their world were "created," by the collective imagination of "our," world...and the writer of the book is not someone from the EF but someone from out world. That would explain the overlap of "real," characters of people culled from real characters. But I think it might be a bit much for the duo to write.

 

Well, in a world of mermaids and sea goddesses, anything can happen.

 

Well, at that point I didn't want to tell him that grown man watches a show with Mermaids in it....he just saw too people in a crate.....

Edited by Mitch

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While the discussion of what can/should be included in Fairy Tales brought into the show is interesting, we are verring off the topic of this episode.  Perhaps this discussion is better had in one of these other threads.  If you don't think a thread fits and would like a new one, please PM one of us (me, stacey or yeswedo) with the idea and we'll check to see if there isn't already a thread where that topic can be discussed.

 

Continuity and Nitpicks

OUAT vs Other Fairy Tales

The Writers of OUAT 
 

Thank you. Please PM a mod, or "report" this post, with any questions.

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This is being discussed in the relationships thread, but it's also relevant to the episode and something that really struck me in the rewatch:

 

Rumple is openly holding the dagger in Belle's presence in the scene where he takes her to lock her in the shop for her own safety.

 

So, is that a huge continuity oopsie, a sign of a critical missing scene, or on purpose to set up something later?

 

I hate to think that no one involved in production would have realized that something's wrong if he's holding the dagger in front of Belle when it's been such a huge plot point all season long that she thinks she has the dagger. It doesn't matter whether this is the "real" dagger or the "fake" dagger, he supposedly doesn't have a dagger in his possession.

 

So maybe there was a cut scene in which Belle handed the dagger over to him. It would make sense for her to have insisted on doing so because it would be a really, really bad idea for someone under the influence of the Shattered Sight spell to have control of the Dark One. He even mentions in the scene we saw that he should be immune to the spell because of being the Dark One, so it seems like they've had that conversation. But shouldn't we have seen this scene? Surely it's more important to the plot than the second tearful farewell between Robin and Regina. It would have more emotional resonance, with Rumple getting a heaping dose of guilt (if he's capable of feeling such a thing) because of her faith in him, which would then have tied into Hook's comment immediately afterward about how Belle truly loves Rumple and he's throwing it away. And her handing over the dagger would have increased suspense levels because we've been counting on her figuring out that the dagger she has is fake as a key to foiling Rumple's plot, but if she's willingly handed it over that's less likely, unless maybe she finds the second dagger in the shop after she thinks she's given it to him.

 

Or if it's deliberate, then maybe she's going to have that "hey, wait a second ..." realization in which she remembers he had the dagger soon after she's locked up. But that makes her look kind of stupid that she didn't notice it at the time.

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But shouldn't we have seen this scene? Surely it's more important to the plot than the second tearful farewell between Robin and Regina. It would have more emotional resonance, with Rumple getting a heaping dose of guilt (if he's capable of feeling such a thing) because of her faith in him, which would then have tied into Hook's comment immediately afterward about how Belle truly loves Rumple and he's throwing it away. And her handing over the dagger would have increased suspense levels because we've been counting on her figuring out that the dagger she has is fake as a key to foiling Rumple's plot

 

It's either a glaring editing issue or the writer completely overlooked that detail. I bolded the sentence about Robin and Regina because seriously, did we really need another farewell between them? Especially if it replaced an important plot detail like how Rumple is carrying the dagger in front of Belle. Usually this show always goes for a plot-related conversation over a character/emotional conversation, so what gives?

Edited by Curio

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Usually this show always goes for a plot-related conversation over a character/emotional conversation, so what gives?

Regina's involved. There's a hierarchy where Regina+plot is at the top, then anything else relating to Regina, then anything to do with plot, and then far at the bottom is character/emotion for everyone else.

 

Actually, I'm surprised we got all the Charming family farewells instead of the Rumple and Belle plot-related scene. But I do think that the second Regina and Robin farewell was redundant (yes, we know he believes in her and that means a lot to her) and the easiest to have cut in order to show us why Belle wasn't saying, "Hey, where'd you get the dagger?"

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Anyways, can't wait to see what the Snowig situation is going to be like. Snow definitely looked affected by the spell, but David had more of a worried(?) look on his face. Hopefully the next episode is a good one. It is the penultimate, after all.

Yeah, you know, I noticed this on rewatch and I'm curious about it. I wonder if the editors cut away from Charming going from confused to angry (Snow looks confused at first as well before she gets her bitchface on), BUT I also wonder if having half of Snow's heart has made Charming somewhat immune to the curse somehow. Like he can feel Snow's cranky feelings but his own haven't really been affected. Then again, he did pull his hand away, so.

 

Heh, wouldn't it be awful for him if Snow was under the spell and he wasn't? He'd have her bitching at him the whole time and he wouldn't even get to fire back!

Edited by stealinghome

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The scene with Snowing's changing faces reminded me so much of Heart of Darkness, where David suspects MM of murder and her whole expression goes from relief to betrayed. It was in the same location to boot.

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I'm not sure if I misinterpreted the end of the last episode, did the ribbons activating mean that Elsa and Emma could no longer use their magic and that DQ had blocked it, or that their magic got more powerful, or what? That was the first thing I thought when Elsa brought up blasting down the cave wall, that she wasn't supposed to have her magic.

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I'm not sure if I misinterpreted the end of the last episode, did the ribbons activating mean that Elsa and Emma could no longer use their magic and that DQ had blocked it, or that their magic got more powerful, or what?

The impression I got was just that the ribbons allowed Ingrid to draw upon their magic. She did that to cast the spell, but then they'd have normal magic levels if she wasn't using their magic. She wants them to be magical. That's part of her grand scheme. The ribbons bind them all together and link them magically. It also seems like once they figure things out, it would be possible for one of them to draw upon her magic. Elsa may even have unwittingly drawn upon Emma and Ingrid when blasting through the wall.

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Yeah, you know, I noticed this on rewatch and I'm curious about it. I wonder if the editors cut away from Charming going from confused to angry (Snow looks confused at first as well before she gets her bitchface on), BUT I also wonder if having half of Snow's heart has made Charming somewhat immune to the curse somehow. Like he can feel Snow's cranky feelings but his own haven't really been affected. Then again, he did pull his hand away, so.

 

I wonder if the shattered sight spell will go internally focused in some.  Some will tear each other apart and others tear themselves apart.  Snow had an antagonistic relationship with Regina.  Her not wanting to hand over the baby, even to Charming, and cringing from Emma's magic both seem externally focused.  With Charming, I keep coming back to his Oz arc and wonder if he'll feel worthless and cowardly and go suicidal instead of homicidal.

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Rewatched.

 

So, once she's in danger, Snow automatically stops fearing Emma's magic? It just felt like a really bad time for her to make that kind of proclamation. The way she said it didn't help either. It came out like, "Okay normally we would be afraid of your powers, but since we need our butts saved again, we'll tolerate it!" She put it in the context of needing Emma to be the hero, which sort of added insult to injury. It was like displaying her issues with depending on the Savior for all to see. Whenever Snow opens her mouth, something screwy is bound to come out.

 

Snow: "We don't fear your magic, Emma... it's what's going to allow you to take on this Snow Queen and win."

 

Snow: "Henry's right, you are special... and you're going to use that specialness to save us."

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I took it as Snow trying to give Emma a pep talk, since she knows she won't be able to give her a confidence boost when she's under the Spell.  Her tone when she said she's not afraid of Emma's powers had no hesitation in it.  She and Charming were very matter of fact getting into their cells, and I think that was supposed to represent how they had complete faith. 

 

Looking at those lines, they are pretty terrible.  They should have devoted "Smash the Mirror" to Emma/Snow instead of Regina, and Snow's heartfelt scene with Emma should have come at the end of that episode.  As you said, they only write screwy lines for her to say.  Though the worst in "Fall" was probably the lines after Regina told Snow and Charming they needed to be leaders.

 

Though as usual, no one has an actual plan for how they will get out of this impossible situation.  Emma, Elsa and Anna literally have no idea what they plan to do.  That's why it's ultimately going to be another deus-ex-machina.

Edited by Camera One
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Though as usual, no one has an actual plan for how they will get out of this impossible situation.  Emma, Elsa and Anna literally have no idea what they plan to do.  That's why it's ultimately going to be another deus-ex-machina.

For all we know, they're planning on just waiting it out. Anna snapped out of it eventually; maybe they're hoping everyone else will, before someone gets hurt. Not really the best plan, though. Hopefully they do something proactive, like storm DQ's lair.

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I don't think Anna snapped out of it.  Wasn't it because Elsa made the sacrifice of going into the urn, an act of true love, which broke Anna's Shattered Sight Curse?

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I don't think Anna snapped out of it.  Wasn't it because Elsa made the sacrifice of going into the urn, an act of true love, which broke Anna's Shattered Sight Curse?

I think the Act of True Love was Elsa refusing to attack Anna or even defend herself against her, even though that meant being urned. Ingrid wanted her to lash out at Anna with her powers, but she refused to hurt her sister.

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So basically, Emma will need to stand there while everyone in town hurl insults at her but her love for her inherited kingdom and its citizens will result in a mass-Curse breakage.  And voilà, Emma has now accepted the mantle of being a monarch.  Check, what's next on her to-do?

Edited by Camera One

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I guess 4x05 was just a dry run then. If Emma can take abuse from (non-cursed) Regina and still wants to be friends even though (non-cursed) Regina wants to kill her, then Emma's got breaking this shattered sight spell in the bag.

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On the plus side, I liked how they set up bringing Anna and Kristoff to town. It was the good kind of contrived because it put all the pieces in place and had them come together. The goodbyes were emotional and affecting, and the moment when the curse hit was really well done, where you could see it on the Charmings' faces.

On the negative side, it got to be a bit silly how that huge curse just hovered in the air, giving them a whole day to prepare. And they really don't know how royalty works, do they? Hans and his brothers wouldn't be able to just barge into Arendelle and make accusations of treason because they're princes from another country. They have no authority there. It's like Regina barging into Midas's castle and letting her guards make arrests. Hans was able to do what he did in the movie because he was known as Anna's fiance, and she'd publicly put him in charge before she went after Elsa. But now he's known as an enemy. Why would the Arendelle navy take him anywhere? And it couldn't have been his kingdom's navy, since he and his brothers came by land and were frozen in the palace. If the people of Arendelle were iffy on Elsa's rule and some members of the navy were willing to go along with Hans against the royal family, then that's a pretty big deal, and it actually might have made the plot work even better -- then Anna has a real reason to postpone her wedding and go looking for a solution for Elsa, and being seen as a magical monster is causing real problems -- except the guards were willing to go along with Ingrid, another magical monster, so that doesn't work. Elsa really needs to clean house with her guards and her military.

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This was one of the episodes in 4A I liked most, and I still had pretty much the same reactions and feelings towards it.  Often, I find the penultimate episode better than the climax, and I think it applies in this case as well.

Rewatching has reminded me how horrible Rumple was, with every passing episode.  How can anyone continue to work with the jerk.  When Rumple told Belle to go into the shop, she asked if he could keep out the Curse.  Even if he could, what about everyone else?  Why didn't Belle beg Rumple to protect everyone against the Curse if she thought he could.

This would have been one of those situations where the Fairies or Regina should have dusted the town with sleeping powder like in "Sleeping Beauty".  Sleeping people can't say mean things to each other.  Of course, that would have defeated the "fun" of seeing everyone's "dark" side.

Elsa unknowingly wishing that Anna could be with her

Spoiler

this time reminded me of Emma wishing that she didn't have magic in Season 6.  The Wish that created the Wish Realm.

This episode also reminded me how often a magical object is introduced right when it's needed... in this case, the Wishing Star.  Though to the Writers' credit, it was in the necklace that was introduced at the start of the season.  I still think it was a clever twist.  You can see that as of 4A, at least, there was at least a bit more fore-planning for a half-season, and the "surprise twist" made sense.

Spoiler

By 5A, the end of the arc seemed disconnected from the start of it.

And by the latter seasons, the "surprise twist" often made zero sense.  

Why would Charming physically try to ice-climb the Ice Wall instead of Regina or Emma using magic to make footholds or a giant ladder or something?  The use of magic when it's necessary is so arbitrary.  Why didn't Regina put Robin Hood into a room and seal it with magic if she cared about him so much?  

The jail cells had spaces big enough for Snow or Charming to really hurt one another if the spell was as destructive as Ingrid claimed.

It still bothered me that Regina always knew best.  Though it was nice Snow got a line in about how Regina as Mayor only had to deal with one villain and it was herself.

Poor Will.  He was still on the show and had one line.

So Elsa is still "pure of heart" enough to use the Wishing Star even though she condemned the town to possible death by stealing the necklace?

Did we ever find out why Ingrid unfroze Arendelle?

The Dark One is immune from Shattered Sight?  What about the Fairies?  Not that they were around anymore.

Edited by Camera One
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10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Did we ever find out why Ingrid unfroze Arendelle?

Anna says something about it. I think its implied needed to redirect her magical energy toward the Shattered Sight spell, meaning she could no longer maintain the magical freeze over Arendelle. Funny how magical energy is finite so rarely and inconsistently.

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5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Rewatching has reminded me how horrible Rumple was, with every passing episode.  How can anyone continue to work with the jerk.  When Rumple told Belle to go into the shop, she asked if he could keep out the Curse.  Even if he could, what about everyone else?  Why didn't Belle beg Rumple to protect everyone against the Curse if she thought he could.

That's the same question I have. If Rumple has really "changed" like Belle thinks then why doesn't he protect everyone? Why wouldn't he try to help everyone? Why doesn't she ask him to protect everyone? 

Edited by andromeda331

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5 hours ago, Camera One said:

This would have been one of those situations where the Fairies or Regina should have dusted the town with sleeping powder like in "Sleeping Beauty".  Sleeping people can't say mean things to each other.  Of course, that would have defeated the "fun" of seeing everyone's "dark" side.

That would have been a good idea too. Why not do that? As fun as seeing some of everyone's dark side was. Which I only really liked outside scene with the dwarves. I never stop loving how this is the best they can come up with. Its just like the Cave from season three where everyone had to reveal something you'd think that would be something that had ripple effects. Nope, none whatsoever. Same here. They could really get into some hurtful things or truths. Nope it all amounts to nothing. Again. There really are no two better people at coming up with the least interesting conflict, problem and resolving there is. Its hard to believe they were ever on LOST a show that was full of interesting stuff, surprises and cliffhangers. I mean yes they went off the deep end in season two but then corrected it and season six was a mess. Are we sure they really weren't really just getting coffee for the writers of LOST? 

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I really dont think the writers have any idea how government works. Like, at all. How do the princes from some other random kingdom have the authority to just show up and declare themselves the new rulers?! At least in the movie, Ana put Hans in charge while she was gone looking for Elsa, she was her fiance, and everyone thought he was on the up and up. Everyone knows that the guy is evil now, why are they apparently cool with this apparent military cu against the royal family? Between this and a bunch of guards siding with Ingrid to imprison Ana, they really need to consider cleaning house after all of this, or at least doing some damn background checks on who works in their castle and army!

Anyway, while thats all pretty stupid, I do like the flashbacks and the reunion of the Frozen gang in Storeybrooke. Its contrived in the way that stuff in this show normally is, but at least it was fun and the characters involved were likable enough that I was actually invested in their fates, even knowing that obviously they wont die. Its a fun adventure story, and I generally am enjoying this Frozen sequel before we get the big screen version 🙂

So, do the fairies not have their magic now or something? Why do they just run and hide like the horny teens in a slasher movie when faced with a threat? Or is good magic not allowed to be used to actually save yourself from being sucked into a magic hat for the use of evil? I would really like to know why they all still dress like nuns too, actually. 

Speaking of, has no one offered to let Elsa wear something more practical, like jeans and a sweatshirt? That long flowy dress cant be too practical for running around town or in the woods. 

It kind of takes away from the urgency of the curse when it spends so much time just hovering around, dramatically thundering. 

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