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Fix My Father with 34 Children (Part 3)

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Part 3 ya'all.

 

I liked this episode over all. I could see that Iyanla made some inroads with him and that at least he is thinking about things differently. It is going to take a lot of work on his end and I am not sure if he is truly ready for change. I did not like how the women were made out to be the victims like they did not know what he was doing or what was going on. The "chose" to believe his duplicity even with a wealth of evidence to the contrary. They should have been called out as strongly as he was. If he is broken... then so are they. Healing for ALL.

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I didn't like Iyanla's voiceover that "the daughters aren't ready for healing".  They were grown women who chose not to participate in what they (probably rightly) believed to be a sham.  This is a man who has quite likely apologized and made promises over and over and never saw them through.  I think it is healthy for them to decide that they've had enough, and, as one of the daughters noted, if he's truly ready to heal and become a present part of their lives, he doesn't need a television show to do it.  Those women deciding not to be a part of this show's process any longer is no indication that they aren't ready to heal any rift with their father, nor is it an indication that they even need any healing. As they said - they're fine and they don't miss him.  Sometimes it is better to remove someone from your life, parent or not.  

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I could have done without so much focus on Weeping Wanda. She seemed to put the entire blame squarely in his lap. Everything was his fault. All the kids were his fault, that she believed all of his lies was his fault. She was to blame for nothing. How is it after having a two year old that he still is barely involved with, she's still entertaining conversations about "working it out". How dumb can you be?

A man is only going to do what you let him and I would bet a shiny quarter Weeping Wanda watched the airing of this laid up with him, still listening to lies.

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A man is only going to do what you let him and I would bet a shiny quarter Weeping Wanda watched the airing of this laid up with him, still listening to lies.

 

 

My money is on Nicole. She didn't come to the last day & continues to say that "they are in a relationship", after everything she heard. 

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Nicole is definitely still with him.  You could tell that she was dead set on winning.  She just wants to be the last one standing.  But what has she won?  I wouldn't call Jay a prize.  You can now say you're the last one of 17, one of whom was your best friend.  Congratulations.

 

Speaking of Nicole, I wanted to take a comb to her head.  There was one piece of hair that was just all over the place.  I wanted to help her out so bad.  That was some kitchen stove hair if I've ever seen it.

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Yep... Nicole is not going to give up her prize. Although I must say... I would also be pissed off if my good friend started dating someone I was with even if he is a dog. Just bad all around. Yet Nicole obviously let him back in her life AFTER he had babies with her ex-friend and then she just HAD to have a baby of her own by him. 

 

Typical... seems we are always so quick to dump a friend but will forgive a man almost anything. 

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Yep... Nicole is not going to give up her prize. Although I must say... I would also be pissed off if my good friend started dating someone I was with even if he is a dog. Just bad all around. Yet Nicole obviously let him back in her life AFTER he had babies with her ex-friend and then she just HAD to have a baby of her own by him. 

 

Typical... seems we are always so quick to dump a friend but will forgive a man almost anything. 

I have to say I disagreed with Iyanla who was all shocked about the idea that Nicole would be angry with her friend for having sex with her man.  Now, Jay needed to accept his share of the responsibility for that (I mean ... "he tried her".  How did she let that go?  How was she okay with that?) but the friend also has to shoulder that blame.  Yes, Jay was the person in romantic relationship with Nicole, but the other woman had a relationship with Nicole, too.  That was a serious betrayal and I understand Nicole's anger at her and even her disgust.  That said, Nicole is ridiculous.  How did she come back from that betrayal and spread her legs for Jay - UNPROTECTED?!  There are 34 children here but how many STDs are there?! That man is slanging dick every which way.  You can't tell me he ain't picked something up.

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Ugh this sorry, shiftless, torn up rag of a man. Sitting up there crying about "I just wanna leave!" and running down the road like some kindergartner. Why in the hell would one woman want this raggedy fool, let alone 17? I've seen my share of desperate women, but these really take the cake. It's like they thought, "Let me get knocked up by the most trifling, irresponsible creature on earth." And then Jay appeared in a poof of smoke.

I do hope the older kids develop a relationship with their aunts and grandmother if they haven't already. It's important to know family history, medical and otherwise.

I thought the woman who never stopped crying was maybe a tad bit slow. She was also wearing Louise Jefferson's hairstyle from the first season of the Jeffersons. Her name was Chantau, but it was pronounced Chante. I kept reading it as Chateau.

Edited by charmed1
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I waited to watch all three episodes before I came to give my two cents on this sham.

 

I did miss the first 20 minutes of the first episode, but please tell me they all were tested for HIV/AIDs/STD testing.

 

Chanteau (yes Charmed1, the Louise Jefferson early season hair-do...spot on) OMG that woman really broke my heart, but damn, it seemed clear to me and my spouse, that she continued to have babies with this guy because she really thought they had something going on. I can lay a whole lotta blame on her for her foolishness such as not using birth control and all that, but Jay was a different kind of asshole. The feeling we had was, he encouraged these women to want to have babies. I know there are trifling dudes all about wanting to have sex with all kinds of ladies, but when they find out they are going to be a bio dad, they run the other direction and don't want to have anything to do with being a provider. Not Jay. 

 

As I watched how Jay talked, the manipulating game he played, and how he tried that mess on Iyanla, it was so clear how he was able to work his special brand of magic on all of those women, not that he is on the David Copperfield level of magic, but some of the women were surely living day-by-day with no self-esteem whatsoever. Jay was damaged goods, and he just needed to sniff out ladies who were also damaged goods. The ones who were "lucky" (lack of a better word) to only come away with one child and dropped Jay, seemed to have their shit together a little better than the others. I realize not all the women were on the show, but just looking at the two ladies who had one child with Jay vs. Chanteu and Nicole, I could easily see the difference. That one woman (sorry, forgot her name, but she was sporting those fugly eyelashes looking like New York from Flavor Flav), didn't even have a clue about the other women or the children. I still give her the side-eye for even daring to have unprotected sex with this fool just because. With all the shit thrown tto he teen girls of Teen Mom, these are full-grown ass women! How can teen girls be told shit when adults are behaving just like them? Oy vey. 

 

The way Jay argued and argued, interjecting and interrupting Iyanla, it was a look into how he controlled the relationships with any of the other women. He tried and tried, playing that game, but he got struck down. When he didn't get his way, out the door went his fat ass, pouting like a five year old.

 

Overall, it was clear how he was able to get away with his shit. He stuck around those females who allowed him to stick around and wanted him to stick around, and didn't bother with the ones who dropped him like a bad habit, which seemed to be only two females.

 

Nicole was a straight up bitch. She wanted him and had the nerve to say her friend was just an affair. Bitch, all of you were having one big, orgy with Jay. Not one of you is more special than the other. Nicole was hella ugly too. She looked tore up like she has been on her hands and knees, working hard to keep Jay coming back to her. Jay is nothing special to look at, but Nicole looked like she is the local barfly.

 

Nicole acted as if her friend was the only other woman, forget there were 15 others.  Looking at the small group, they were all better looking than her. Of course with Jay, it has nothing to do with looks, but who is willing to pull their pants down.

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Okay, it took me a few days to digest the 3-episode fuckery that I watched Saturday.  When I first heard about this show, I thought it would be about a guy who belonged to some obscure religious sect and who was able to sucker 17 women into living in a state of concubinage with him out in the desert.  Except, it was worse...much worse.

 

I have a quick question: Is "a broken man" code for a "trifling, lowdown, raggedy ass, no-good piece of shit?"  Another question I have, is did all these women attend one of those ridiculous seminars years ago where some "relationships expert" was trying to convince Black women that they will have to learn to share a man because of the alleged shortage of eligible men?  I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the kind of women who would find Jay so appealing.  Appealing enough to lay up with him and have 1 or more children with him.  Appealing enough where he can keep coming back when he needed a place to lay his head.  I am alarmed that nary a word was mentioned about STD's, but I loved how Jay rejected the notion that he was irresponsible.

 

As others have noted, Jay isn't even fine.  So, whatever he has swinging from between his legs must be encased in gold and has Kryptonite.  He needs to get a patent for it immediately.  Otherwise, I'm not getting it because he's not even that great a conversationalist.  All that bullshit about wanting to find a wife is just that--bullshit.  And, Nicole--hush, boo!  Did you miss that at least 3 of y'all had children the same age?  Did it click that at least 3 of y'all were pregnant AT THE SAME TIME?!  And, those are the women we know about.  It was also interesting that Jay's mother met 16 of the women.  Me?  I would be embarrassed if I found out I was one of a herd and had to meet the guy's mother.

 

Obviously, Jay's behavior in getting up and walking out is learned behavior from Harvard-educated dad.  And, so is his dissembling and outright lying.  I'm just glad his children can see through his foolishness and are able to walk away.  

 

 

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I'm watching the commercial about it as I type.  Seriously.  OWN can beat a dead horse like none other.

Yeah, but I ain't gonna lie, I will be front and center watching! 

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Yeah, but I ain't gonna lie, I will be front and center watching! 

 

WHUH?!  And, miss Jay's tears and his puffing his chest out because he's "doing more than most men do?"  And, miss Nicole's neck rolls and teeth sucking as she tries to explain yet again why she's the head baby-mama in charge?

 

I'm ashamed to admit that I'll be sitting there with my Jiffy Pop watching, too.  I don't want to, but this is like a bad train wreck and I can't turn away.  Of course, Jay will have a slew of marriage proposals awaiting him from good women who want to tame him.

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I'm ashamed to admit that I'll be sitting there with my Jiffy Pop watching, too.

Just TRY to get between the couch and TV screen.  I will hurl a glass of Chardonnay at anyone who does.

head baby-mama in charge

LOL - Love It1  I want to see baby mama with the shitty fake eyelashes and glue that looks like eye buggers.

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Are you f-ing kidding me? I grew up in the free love, fuck everyone you liked during the 70's 80's nonsense. We knew what caused babies and we went to planned parentnhood and got the pill. You knew what the hell made babies and you stopped it. These women were either dumber than dirt, or thought that having a baby would make the baby daddy be their man.

I think everyone of these fools thought that they would make the baby daddy be their man! I call bullshit on the whole bunch of stupid asses and don't care what befalls them.

BTW Iyanla, if you wanted to reinforce every negative stereotype of black people and set the race back 50 years, good job.

Edited by zillabreeze
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I watched the follow-up episode and thought it was just rehashing of what we had previously seen.  Iyanla, please don't lump me in with these fools.  Just like Zillabreeze said, I grew up in the late 80's and 90's and from the get go everyone knew to go to planned parenthood.  I am in my 40's and married for 20 years and purposely had zero children. We PLANNED it that way.  Duh!

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Question. What brought y'all here? Was it the person, the penis, or the promise? Penis!!!

Chateau is just ridiculous. She cries non-stop. Her nose was red before the show even started.

Eyelash Ayanna or whatever the hell her name is should be so embarrassed. It's bad enough that your baby's daddy has 34 other kids, but now you don't even know if your baby's daddy is the one with 34 kids. She made it seem like she didn't want her kid to know Jay was his father because of his actions when in fact, it was her lack of good judgement that she was embarrassed about. I'm glad she took those eyelashes off though.

Edited by charmed1
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I watched this shit Saturday and my overall feeling was, "Damn--I could have had a V-8!"

 

A lot of the stuff was just plain good, old-fashioned common sense.  For instance, what is it about Jay that says, "Girllllll, he's a good man!"  What is so great about him that a woman would feel compelled to have one, much less, several children with that loser?  Do these grown-ass women not know even the most rudimentary functions of the female reproductive system?  As I indicated before, I am alarmed that no mention was made of STD's.  None of this is rocket science nor did it require a follow-up segment.  Does one really need to be a rocket scientist to know that Nicole is still fucking Jay--even though she didn't appear on Saturday's show?

 

Ayanna sounded like a candidate for Maury and I am curious as to why she agreed to be in this series of shows in the first place.  She should have just stayed at home and kept her secret to herself.

 

And, where the hell did they find those so-called men?  It's as if O placed an ad on Craig's List that said, "If you are a selfish, trifling atomic dog, who has had multiple children with multiple women and simply don't give a fuck--contact OWN immediately for a chance to be on the air!  We'll pay for your trip and hotel accommodations.  PS:  Oh, and it would help if you were Black!"

Edited by MulletorHater
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I have never heard the word penis so much in one hour. Iyanla is a mess.

All of these women have low self-esteem. You can see Jay's wack game coming from a mile away. He's a cornball. And a short cornball at that. If what they desired was a relationship, they could have found that with a man who was actually interested in them for more than their Madames.

Ayanna is a mess, too. The best reaction to her news was the lady in the audience wearing the burgundy blouse and gray blazer. She had a hilarious "wtf?" look on her face. I laughed and laughed.

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I just saw a commercial for yet another episode of this saga. This time, Iyanla will sit down with Jay.

I'm sure I'll fall asleep on that as I did with the all women episode. Ugh. Stop giving the tired player a platform! I bet he getting new women approaching him too. Why who knows but someone will think they are the ONE to save him and be the reason he didn't do the snip!

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I can't believe how Iyanla is able to drag this fuckery out over several episodes.  Now, she's bringing Jay back complete with a room full of men to explain why he--and they--are "broken."

 

Iyanla, PLEASE stop making stupid, ignorant, trifling people famous!

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I'll betcha that POS is getting more tail than ever! And I am with the others posters that have opined that there has to be some kind(s) of STDs floating around the circle of skanks.

Court ordered spaying & neutering should be A Thing.

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OK.  There is something wrong with me.  I can't turn away from this trainwreck.  BUT!

 

Why. oh why does Iyanla tap dance around financial responsibility?  Does her liberal ass NOT want us to know what My Tax Bill is paying for all of these youngun's?  Don't EVEN try to convince me that none of these stupid bitches are not on the dole?   

 

Also, LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE that he always used condoms and there were that many fails.

a. He gets off to making babies and is poking holes.

b.Stupid bitches fix it so they get pregnant hoping to trap the guy.

 

I once read on a "guys website" that women would try to to trap a guy by getting the condom out of the trash in the bathroom and put in into her vagina! Their recommendation was to keep  a bottle of hot pepper sauce in the bathroom and "spice" up the condom before they tossed it. Brillaint!  If I were a dude I would totally do that.

 

AND while I am on a rant- everytime I see Iyanla's "Family Tree" graphic, I can't help thinking about rats and roaches and the multiplication.

Edited by zillabreeze
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It's possible that the "promise" encompasses financial stability and Iyanla probably feels the paycheck doesn't need to be addressed.  Although I've yet to see how a sperm donor with 34 kids is financially stable by any stretch of the imagination.  The whole thing is rather odd given that one of her shows focused on Terrell Owens,  who was paying $45,000 a month in child support for 4 kids and is no longer playing football. 

 

I saw a lot of crying and "brokenness" but there still seems to be virtually no accountability for the failure to put "raincoats" on those "soldiers."  I just don't get it.  It's like Fuck Fest 2014.

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I was all set to watch this until little Michael Eric Johnson, a.k.a. annoying ass Jeff Johnson appeared on my tv. I changed the channel immediately. He seemed to think it was his show. I put up with Iyanla because I find her new age "healing" methods amusing. But I can't stand these pseudo intellectual, pontificating, self-righteous cornballs like Dyson and Jeff Johnson.

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Does her liberal ass NOT want us to know what My Tax Bill is paying for all of these youngun's?  Don't EVEN try to convince me that none of these stupid bitches are not on the dole?

Sing it, Sister Woman (tm Iyanla).  My wallet was groaning listening to this bullshit.  How many of these moms and kids am I supporting?  Then the kids have their own kids and I am supporting even more of them.  It's like a geometric progression.  Where does it ever end?

 

Remember the days when a son wanted to grow up to be a lawyer/plumber/carpenter/teacher just like his dad? What a role model.  Guess what many of these sons will end up doing?  Maybe they can have a contest to see who can father the most kids.  And when are we going to stop rewarding women for having children out of wedlock?  Did they ever hear about birth control pills?  Why was Jay the one in charge (or not) of condoms?  And I don't give a shit about broken promises.  When someone thinks that the likes of Jay, whose dick must be magical or something because I don't get the appeal otherwise, is going to give her what she wants, she needs a good, strong kick in the ass.  Maybe it would get her head straight. The Sister Women would have all been better off with a turkey baster.

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I once read on a "guys website" that women would try to to trap a guy by getting the condom out of the trash in the bathroom and put in into her vagina! Their recommendation was to keep  a bottle of hot pepper sauce in the bathroom and "spice" up the condom before they tossed it. Brillaint!  If I were a dude I would totally do that.

Why not just toss the condom in the toilet and flush?

 

Strange how there was no mention of the financial responsibility that Jay is obviously not providing, the welfare that some of the women are receiving, and why no one has mentioned STDs/HIV/AIDs? With all the other shit being thrown out on my television screen from these heifers and this trifling dude, why are these adults not being held accountable for EVERYTHING? And I say that in my best Thelma Evans impression when she confronts her drunken husband, Keith on Good Times.

 

At what point do the women take ownership? No one is a victim. The only victims are the children who were brought into this fucking mess.

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Remember the days when a son wanted to grow up to be a lawyer/plumber/carpenter/teacher just like his dad? What a role model.  Guess what many of these sons will end up doing?  Maybe they can have a contest to see who can father the most kids.  And when are we going to stop rewarding women for having children out of wedlock?  Did they ever hear about birth control pills?  Why was Jay the one in charge (or not) of condoms?  And I don't give a shit about broken promises.  When someone thinks that the likes of Jay, whose dick must be magical or something because I don't get the appeal otherwise, is going to give her what she wants, she needs a good, strong kick in the ass.  Maybe it would get her head straight. The Sister Women would have all been better off with a turkey baster.

 

That's one of the things I found so alarming--and sad.  The one with the gorgeous skin indicated that her son already fixed his mouth to state that he wanted to have two children but by different women.  What in the bloody hell are people teaching their kids?!  It's one thing to give the big speech that "you and your daddy are cut from the same cloth but you don't have to wear that cloth" and be rewarded with applause from Iyanla and the audience.  But, it doesn't take a genius to know that kids pay more attention to what their parents do as opposed to what they say.

 

I'm also quite progressive on quite a few things but fiscally conservative in others.  I'm a kid of the 60's who came of age during the 70's.  I remember hiding copies of Cosmopolitan from my parents which was considered quite racy and remember when the book, Our Bodies, Ourselves was openly discussed in our health class.  Since the book was quite expensive and we were still in junior high and needed our parents' permission, few of us could actually buy the book.  But, we all knew about birth control, the dreaded VD(!) and the perils of having children out of wedlock.  We were also told as girls that we could do be anything we wanted if we applied our minds to it and could have it all.  We weren't just going to college to catch a husband.  Even though some of my peers didn't attend college for various reasons, they still were encouraged to apply for jobs that could lead to rewarding careers.  

 

This shit here is simply beyond comprehension.  At, what point do you say, "hmmm...maybe I should put the dick down and just say, no, because this guy simply isn't worth it."  I'm no math genius and it was, in fact, my weakest subject.  But, how much does a box of condoms cost?  Even the expensive ones?  Maybe $10 to $20 for a box of several.  Meanwhile, we have people who can't or won't spend a few coins to buy them but want to burden themselves and everyone else for the next 18 to 21 years to the tune of untold millions of dollars because of their irresponsible behavior.

 

Confusion and foolishness all around! 

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I have my issues with Iyanla's methods, and she irks me seriously - but this episode of the "Jay saga" moved me the most.

 

Only because it addressed a pattern of pathology found in the black community re: (lack of) self-worth, man/womanhood, the broken-ness that is passed down through generations, etc. I liked seeing the men interact with each other, which is something we don't see often.

 

I think it's easy to write "them off," especially when this type of behavior is so far removed from one's personal lives and experiences...but OBVIOUSLY there are real issues going down which effect a great number of people, and it needs to be addressed somewhere, somehow. What I saw was a room of people greatly in need of support and healing.

 

SO many layers of complexity to this issue...ugh.

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I found this episode more moving simply because of how little Iyanla there was in it.  The affected people did more of the talking than she did which worked for me.  I need her to move out of the way because I think 97% of what she says is bunk and she has no qualifications to do therapy with people.  And her forcing physical contact on people bothers me more than just about anything else she does. 

 

That "Have his back!" thing she does where she forces somebody else to press his back up against the person in "therapy" is just so much bull.

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I think it's easy to write "them off," especially when this type of behavior is so far removed from one's personal lives and experiences...but OBVIOUSLY there are real issues going down which effect a great number of people, and it needs to be addressed somewhere, somehow. What I saw was a room of people greatly in need of support and healing.

I agree that there are real issues and a lot of people being affected, but no one wants to address the issues head on because it's not politically correct; it's like touching the third rail. Remember the days when being on welfare was an embarrassment?  Now it is something to brag about.  Remember when Dan Quayle admonished the the idea of out of wedlock babies?  He was made a laughing stock.  Remember when the government put a limit on what you could buy with food stamps? Now you can simply take your EBT card to the nearest ATM, get the money out and spend it at the local strip club/tattoo parlor/casino.  No one is talking about the black-on-black crime that is exploding in our inner cities, either.  

 

I wish that Iyanla and Oprah would tackle some of this instead of holding the mothers' hands and telling them that it's okay to have numerous kids with a skank ass man and it's not their fault that they chose so unwisely.  Yes, it is their fault!  Yeah, I'm a dinosaur and come from the Age of Personal Responsibility (it came right after the Stone Age).  Iyanla needs to show some tough love instead of her little party games (write down the man's name and put it in a box, stand behind each other for support, piles of dolls on couches and chairs).  

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Iyanla can be a little much but I don't think she advocates "a lack of personal responsibility." She seems to be about "owning your stuff" which is essentially being personally responsible for what you do. I am glad that she is doing shows like these (multiple children, fatherless sons, fatherless daughters, etc. ) cause these issues need to be address and I for one am glad that she is trying. Demonizing unaware and self-destructive people who are living out their pathology is never really productive IMO. We ALL have made mistakes... some more than others and I like that she treats her guests with compassion while empowering them to change.

 

I enjoyed the show. Change can only come from self-awareness and honesty. I have certainly acted in self-destructive ways in my past in because I was unaware of my motivations and issues and how they were affecting me. When you have low self-esteem, you do almost anything for approval from others. You believe the unbelievable, forgive the unforgivable, etc. 

 

Low self-esteem, low motivation, warped ideas about what manhood is are rampant and open discussion about this is so needed.

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I would have liked to hear more about what made these women think it was a good idea to have a second child with Jay when he wasn't doing the right thing after the first child was born. Also I don't recall the words "birth control pills" ever being mentioned. It's easy to talk in silly phrases like "the person, the penis and the promise," but how about something less abstract, like "Stop having sex with men who have 34 kids with 17 other women." I find it very frustrating.

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Had enough? Well too bad because there's another Jay Williams episode, beloveds! This time Iyanla's own son comes out for some healing.

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SERIOUSLY???  How long are we gonna milk this one?  I am so over  dude that thinks with his dick and apparently has zero control over what said dick does.

 

I am ready for some new big purse, stomping.  This guy is getting waaaay too much press and I fear it is only fueling his idiot, pussy fire.  Once again, I am hearing "Ka-ching, Ka-ching" let the govenment coffers ring.   If Iyanla thinks for one minute I will ever get leaky eyes over this fool & his 'hos, she is sadly mistaken.  This is one of those times where I think court ordered spay/neauter is a REALLY good idea.

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I started to watch this tonight, but I. am. so. sick. of. Jay! I can't do it anymore.  No more.  I am gonna do what all 17 of Jay's women should have done and end this relationship now.  (And yes, it is a relationship because at this point I feel like I know him more than some of his baby mommas do.)  Jay, I'm done!

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I'm feeling the same way.  This is getting ridiculous.  Jay has now managed to parlay his lack of sexual and parental responsibility into a measure of fame.  He sat up there looking satisfied with himself, thinking that his wayward dick has now started a huge conversation about Black love and parenthood.  Dude, you're not that important.  You're still a man who couldn't figure out birth control to save his life and unless you've made a significant change in the way you deal with your children and their mothers, whatever "conversation" your situation has started makes no difference.

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I'm feeling the same way.  This is getting ridiculous.  Jay has now managed to parlay his lack of sexual and parental responsibility into a measure of fame.  He sat up there looking satisfied with himself, thinking that his wayward dick has now started a huge conversation about Black love and parenthood.  Dude, you're not that important.  You're still a man who couldn't figure out birth control to save his life and unless you've made a significant change in the way you deal with your children and their mothers, whatever "conversation" your situation has started makes no difference.

 

I agree. The issues that Jay has are not issues that can be solved in one or two sessions with Iyanla.  Sure, that was a great start, but only a start. Jay has a long way to go yet.  I will bet you lunch that Jay is still up to his manipulations with women, still getting phone numbers, and has yet to really attempt to repair relationships with his children.  Actually, all those damn kids should REALLY be his priority.  He shouldn't even have the effin' time to be dealing with women!

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