Jump to content
yeswedo

S02.E22: And Straight on 'Til Morning

Recommended Posts

 

Storybrooke's inhabitants brace themselves as Greg and Tamara activate the trigger within the curse; Mr. Gold mourns; Hook rescues Bae, who is being pursued by the Lost Boys.

 

Note: please use spoiler tags when referring to major events that happen after this episode to allow new viewers to choose to be spoiled.

Share this post


Link to post

Underwhelming season finale...

 

Pros:
* Flashbacks with Hook/Bae.

* Lacey has left the building.

* The character moments at the failsafe climax in the mine.

* 2B is over.

 

Cons:
* Greg and Tamara didn't die.

* Neal "died" and got resurrected the same episode.

* All the puff about the failsafe and moving back to EF went nowhere and abruptly ended.

* The Neverland "twist" wasn't nearly as intriguing as the S1 finale's ending twist.

* Did I mention Greg and Tamara didn't die?

Share this post


Link to post

@KingOfHearts You forgot Snow's diner speech in your list of cons. Snow is clearly the worst person to ever put in charge of a kingdom. She's advocating that she should have picked the "harder path" over her killing of Cora rather than protect her family and people from potential annihilation from the newly minted Dark One, the Queen of Hearts and makes plans to throw everyone in Storybrooke under the bus just on the off chance they can save Regina. Will no one think of the peasants? Seriously, Snow sucks. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
You forgot Snow's diner speech in your list of cons.

 

 

Probably KingOfHearts just blocked it out in self-defense. There really should be a Dark Vault of Scenes That Shall Not Be Mentioned.

Edited by Amerilla
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Probably KingOfHearts just blocked it out in self-defense. There really should be a Dark Vault of Scenes That Shall Not Be Mentioned.

My favorite part of that scene was Hook calling bullshit on the plan...

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Heh, we probably should've just had a poll for this thread instead:

"On a scale from -100 ("Hulk SMASH!") to  0 ("Meh, at least season 2 is over. This miserable season has ended!") how much did this episode suck for you?"  

Share this post


Link to post

@KingOfHearts and makes plans to throw everyone in Storybrooke under the bus just on the off chance they can save Regina. Will no one think of the peasants?

Well, they were already planning on doing that either way since they were gonna use the bean to just save themselves, Emma, Henry, Archie, Granny and the dwarves (I may have forgotten someone else who was at the diner) and apparently let everyone else in Storybrooke to die. They want us to think Snow & Charming are super kind but I don't think they realize how they come off as not very caring and pretty selfish rulers.

Share this post


Link to post
Well, they were already planning on doing that either way since they were gonna use the bean to just save themselves, Emma, Henry, Archie, Granny and the dwarves (I may have forgotten someone else who was at the diner) and apparently let everyone else in Storybrooke to die.

 

I assumed they were running around to gather the townspeople so everyone would be ready to jump into the portal after the threw the bean.  We only saw the core group in the diner.

 

----

 

David: Steal back the beans. Use them to get everyone into the Enchanted Forest before Storybrooke is gone.

 

Emma: I'll take Regina to slow down the diamond, give you guys time. Mary Margaret, take Henry, and gather everyone. Make sure they're ready to go as soon as we have those beans. (Mary Margaret and Henry begin to exit.)

 

---

 

And by everyone, I think they did mean everyone.

 

I do agree that forgetting the peasants and just using them as redshirts is one of my biggest problems with the writers (well, among my top 5 problems with them); unfortunately, it is a prevalent problem with a lot of the shows I've watched (including "Lost").  They forget it's the community which makes this show, and most good shows, special.  Snow and Charming are such bleeding hearts that I think it would be consistent with their true characters to care about everyone in the kingdom, but the writing always ignores that.  The writers had no interest in showing Snow and Charming actually ruling their Kingdom (and learning to rule the kingdom, since they were both green and there would have been a lot of interesting lessons), just like they had no interest in showing how David and Emma (and Snow) would have ruled Storybrooke after Regina was deposed.  These are everyday storylines which could have grounded the show in S2 and S3 to counter the magical threats they faced.  

Edited by Camera One
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, I thought this episode made it pretty clear that the plan was for the Charmings to save the entire town (or at least as many people as they could). I mean, they said that in the dialogue. On a side note, I really hope Storybrooke has an efficient phone tree. Because goodness knows they need it.

 

Heh, we probably should've just had a poll for this thread instead:

"On a scale from -100 ("Hulk SMASH!") to  0 ("Meh, at least season 2 is over. This miserable season has ended!") how much did this episode suck for you?"

The most frustrating thing about this episode is that, until Snow's stupid-ass diner speech, I thought it was the best post-'Miller's Daughter' episode of 2B (and probably third-best episode of 2B in general after that episode and 'Manhattan'). But Snow's moment of utter MORON just dragged it back down into the Black Hole of Suck that was 2B.

 

I still say that you can see the thought bubble saying "THIS IS SUCH SHIT" above Ginnifer Goodwin's head during the diner speech. She's trying so hard, but you can just tell that some part of her thinks what she's saying is total bs. (It's not just you, Ginny.)

Edited by stealinghome

Share this post


Link to post

I assumed they were running around to gather the townspeople so everyone would be ready to jump into the portal after the threw the bean.  We only saw the core group in the diner.

 

David: Steal back the beans. Use them to get everyone into the Enchanted Forest before Storybrooke is gone.

 

Emma: I'll take Regina to slow down the diamond, give you guys time. Mary Margaret, take Henry, and gather everyone. Make sure they're ready to go as soon as we have those beans. (Mary Margaret and Henry begin to exit.)

 

And by everyone, I think they did mean everyone.

I thought they meant the whole town too, but when Charming and Hook returned with the bean, the core group was literally sitting at Granny's just waiting , not gathering any more people and Emma was like "let's get going". It really made it seem like it would only be them. I know perhaps it was easier to set the scene up like that, maybe the other townspeople were waiting somewhere else, but those details annoy me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
I thought they meant the whole town too, but when Charming and Hook returned with the bean, the core group was literally sitting at Granny's just waiting , not gathering any more people and Emma was like "let's get going". It really made it seem like it would only be them. I know perhaps it was easier to set the scene up like that, maybe the other townspeople were waiting somewhere else, but those details annoy me.

 

Yeah, the little details like that are bad, and they are very important.  Too bad the writers don't think that way.  They probably didn't want to hire a crowd of extras since it was all a moot point anyway.  I remember, at the very beginning of S2, I liked how Blue and Red were organizing the townspeople to try to find their lost loved ones, and I was really interested in how they were going to do that.  But all those two got was a scene, and that was it.

 

I'm curious what people would have written if they had to end up with the exact same outcome, with Emma helping Regina to destroy the fail-safe and Henry getting kidnapped.  I really would like to imagine it didn't happen, since there must have been a better, more intelligent way to do it.

Edited by Camera One

Share this post


Link to post

 

It really made it seem like it would only be them. I know perhaps it was easier to set the scene up like that, maybe the other townspeople were waiting somewhere else, but those details annoy me.

 

I'm fairly certain that there was an establishing shot with the vines taking over the town and people running around including one random extra with a suitcase, so I actually do think they sort of kind of tried to show everyone in town was going if you squint really hard. There may have been more exposition about the others in town that was filmed, but didn't make the final cut. 

Share this post


Link to post

It's true, I blocked a lot of the diner speech out of my memory! I'll rewatch it and get back to you.

EDIT: Ok, watched it.

If there were "harder paths" as Snow said, I sure wish the show could have shown what those were. If killing Cora was just a vengeful murder that could have been avoided, the show should have shown us that instead of referring to it as such in dialog. That's just lazy.

They endangered the whole kingdom to save Regina... again. What if the plan didn't work? They would've all died. Guess who's fault that would've been... not Regina's! They could have just let Regina go out with a blaze of glory, but because Snow selfishly only cares about her own feelings, everyone's lives were in danger. They could all be living happy endings in EF right now if they had just stuck with the plan!

Snow and Charming are really bad rulers in my opinion.

Edited by KingOfHearts
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

@Camera One If they wanted to reach the same conclusion, all they needed to do was have everyone go with Emma's eventual reasoning for trying to save Regina. Henry just lost a father, let's try not to have him lose a mother in the same day. It's still suicidal, selfish and stupid, but it doesn't paint Snow as the dumbest person ever about Cora's death. It still throws the peasantry under the bus, but at least it's less stupid than I killed Cora, so we need to take the "harder path" here or whatever. Hook would still have taken off with the bean because Henry not losing a mother (particularly when that mother is the Evil Queen) is basically a crazy notion to risk his life for and he's not stupid enough to go along with it. Basically, just remove the whole Cora/harder paths crap and everything still plays out the same. 

Share this post


Link to post

I really liked this episode.  I loved Bae and Hook in this.  They are both in such pain and had found in each other a chance for peace and possible happiness only for it all to be shattered.  I felt for both of them.  Bae was brave and strong in this episode and wanted nothing to do with his cowardly father.  he tried to protect the Darlings and faced Hook with a sword when he initially thought Hook had killed his mother. He was his mother's son and Hook saw that.  I think he saw the same strength and fire that Milah seemed to have.  I think Hook did come to love Bae and was sincere in his offer to be his family. 

 

I understand why Bae lashed out Hook.  He just found out his mother had abandoned him like his father, and he took at all his anger at his betrayal and abandonment by his parents on Hook, the man his mother left him for.  It makes sense.  Hook was the only one Bae could hurt and it is easier to blame a third party than parents.  Bae did his best to hurt Hook, going so far as to blame Hook for his mother's death, even knowing that it was his father that murdered his mother and that Hook had truly suffered at his father's hands.  You can really see both Bae's and Hook's pain.  I think Hook was sincere in his offer to protect and be Bae's family; and even after Bae's initial rejection, I think if Hook had the ability he would have taken Bae back to the Darlings. 

 

While I certainly don't approve of Hook handing over Bae to Pan, I understand it.  Hook had no good options.  With an uncooperative Bae, Hook could not realistically hide him and could not rationalize  keeping Bae on board without risking his crew and/or a mutiny.  He had also offered Bae everything he had, even to change and let go of his revenge, and had it all thrown in his face.  Hook was wrong and he should have been the better person as the adult in this, but I understand what he did and it was very human.  He may have thought his back was against the wall on this.

 

Someone said in another thread they live for those character moments and I think these scenes had a lot of character moments.  I had refused to watch any Hook scenes (I skipped the Crocodile entirely) because I thought that Hook was going to be eye candy joke.  This showed he had depth and he is now my favorite character.

 

I agree that Snow's speech was stupid and I don't like characterizing Cora's death as unjustified in any way.  I hate false equivalence arguments.  Telling a white lie  (like telling a parent their kid is cute and not saying the  kid looks like Chucky) is not the same as committing fraud that robs people of their lievelihoods and dreams.  Killing someone (especially a murderous sociopath) in self-defense and/or in the defense of others is not the same as killing defenseless people.  I hope no one will claim killing an unarmed Hilter, Vlad the Impaler, Pol Pot, or other murderous dictators to end their reign of terror is unjustifiable.  I wish that A&E would stop trying to use false equivalence.

 

I think Bae's refusal to accept Hook's offer to try to create a family really had an far reaching negative impact on both Hook and Bae's lives.  Hook had nothing left but vengenance and he fully embraced, believing love and family out of his reach, which is why Emma's offer to be part of something was such a turning point for him.  I think that his turnaround was more about him seeking a better life than any attraction to Emma.  

 

Bae ended up alone for a very long time and I think it snuffled out the fire in him and made him more likely to run away which is how he became Neal.  He became more his father's son.  A young Bae would never have allowed Emma to go to jail for him; just as a young Lt Jones probably never become a pirate; but adult Neal spent his life running away from the consequences of his actions and people.  Things happen in life that change us.   Neal was starting to turn that around.

Edited by kitticup
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

Mary Margaret's rationale that they should risk everyone's lives to take the chance to save Regina because she owes her for killing Cora makes absolutely zero sense. I can see Mary Margaret feeling that way because that's the way she is and feeling bad about doing things that cause anyone pain is what makes her different from Regina, but I can't believe everyone else going along with it without at least making the point that Regina actually owes all of them for creating the curse in the first place, tormenting them for decades, killing their loved ones or separating them from their loved ones, and planning to use the failsafe to kill all of them. Not to mention that Mary Margaret killing Cora saved them all. Someone (other than Hook) needed to question the idea that they should risk dying so that they could save the woman who was going to kill them all, just so Mary Margaret could feel better about what she did to save them all.

 

Though it is interesting listening to the commentary track on this episode because I can kind of see what they thought they were doing. The writer guy was talking about how they wanted to reverse the situation from the season one finale -- going from Henry being in jeopardy and everyone trying to save him to Henry being the only one who wasn't in danger of being killed, and going from Emma and Regina being in opposition to Emma and Regina working together. It just seems like they did a lot of twisting to get to that point. I would have loved to have seen Colin's face when he then asked the writer how much planning really went into that, like he was wondering if the whole season was set up to lead to that point and it was really planned all along or if it was just something they did for the finale. He sounded polite about it and like he was curious about the writing process, but his face is usually so transparent that I could imagine him looking quite baffled (I really hope he doesn't play poker).

 

By the way, the commentary track on this one is one of the best I've heard. I usually find them annoying because they tend to either be writers lauding their own cleverness or cast members acting like they're watching TV together and forgetting that this is for the benefit of other people. But these two actually did a great job of being interesting and informative. It took the writer a little time to draw Colin out, but once he got going, he was great at getting into the technical details of acting choices and what he was playing, while also talking about what the other actors were doing, what was going on elsewhere in the scene that didn't make it into the shot, and some of the behind the scenes info about where things were shot or how many times they had to walk down the same stretch of corridor with it being shot from different angles to make it look like a long tunnel. I was really surprised to learn that they not only weren't in the same room, but were on different continents and couldn't see each other because they played off each other well and didn't talk over each other, which happens so often on commentaries. The gorgeous Irish accent was purely a bonus.

 

It's funny, but I didn't notice how bad Colin's limp was until this time around when I knew about the broken leg, and now I wince every time he takes a step because it just looks painful. They sort of wrote it into the present-day bit because there was a line of dialogue from Regina when he returned about him looking bad, like Greg and Tamara had roughed him up, and then there was the fight with Maleficent. But they didn't try to explain it in the fairybacks, and there's one part where he's going down the steps from one level of the ship to the other where he's hanging onto the rigging above and easing himself down each step that I found myself holding my breath to see if he'd make it. He did say something about the leg really bothering him at points in the commentary.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, this one is a real mixed bag for me, because I hate the present day stuff and love the fairyback stuff. The lack of Hook in the previous episodes (presumably due to the actor's injury) did make his complete 180 a little hard to buy, but I think the flashback sold it enough that I was willing to handwave. 

Share this post


Link to post

The lack of Hook in the previous episodes (presumably due to the actor's injury) did make his complete 180 a little hard to buy, but I think the flashback sold it enough that I was willing to handwave.

I thought his turnaround wasn't that drastic and had distinct steps that made it make sense. When he returned to Storybrooke, he had that conversation with Regina in which he was reflecting on whether revenge was a beginning or an end, realizing that if he got his revenge he didn't have anything else to live for, and pointing out that their behavior in their revenge quest was probably the reason no one liked them. He was working with Greg and Tamara but seemed to hold them in great contempt, Regina ditched him with Maleficent, and although he told Regina Cora was his "friend," there was clearly no love lost between them, so it was like he was realizing that his revenge quest was throwing him together with people he couldn't stand and didn't trust, while he actually liked Emma, who saw him as an enemy. He'd said he was willing to die for his revenge and had earlier even seemed to be courting death, but then when he actually nearly got killed, he realized he didn't actually want to die. He wanted to live, but he had nothing but revenge to live for and needed to find something else (Colin actually goes on at length about this in the commentary). When he saw what Greg and Tamara were up to and that they were willing to die, he realized he didn't want that, and that's when he hightailed it to warn the others. Then seeing the potential fate of Henry being left alone reminded him of what happened with Bae. There's a deleted scene in which he learned about Neal being killed that comes before he saw what Greg and Tamara were up to, and his reaction to that probably has a lot to do with his decision to work with the good guys. He's clearly affected by the news that Henry is Neal's son, but his survival instinct is still pretty strong until his conscience finally gets the best of him and he turns back. So it's not like he just suddenly turned around when on the ship. There were a lot of little turns leading up to that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

This episode is ok on its own and when you compare it to the rest of the season, but as a finale it was very underwhelming for me. The Neverland twist wasn't nearly as exciting as the S1 ending. It's probably unfair to weigh it with 1x22, since they're both in different leagues practically, but that was just one major disappointment to me.

Edited by KingOfHearts
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I did like the visual of the ocean portal swallowing the Jolly Roger whole and then flattening out to calm, serene ocean when it disappeared, but yeah, in terms of "Holy shit, how the hell am I going to wait till September to find out what happens next?!" it was nowhere near as satisfying as 1x22.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
but yeah, in terms of "Holy shit, how the hell am I going to wait till September to find out what happens next?!" it was nowhere near as satisfying as 1x22.

I think that's because there was no telling what might happen with the curse broken and magic back -- there's no template for that and the game was totally changed. But was there ever any doubt that Henry would be rescued before the end of the arc? This isn't the kind of show that would go so dark as to have Henry permanently turned into a Lost Boy or killed. We may not have known the details of how it would go down, but from the end of this episode, we already knew that our merry band of heroes and villains would save Henry.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Well too, Neverland seemed like a random adventure. "Here, lets toss our heroes into a quest and see what happens!" The way it setup pretty much promised they were going to come back safe and sound. Saving Henry really doesn't sound like an epic mission anyway. (I'd rather see him become a Lost Boy or 

have Pan keep his heart since he was dumb enough to give it to him. That's called Natural Selection, folks.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Also, I'm going to throw out that S2, 2B in particular, was so poor that I wasn't EXCITED for S3 the way S1 had me so EXCITED for S2, ya know? It wasn't as much about this episode in particular as it was the craptastic ones before it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
but yeah, in terms of "Holy shit, how the hell am I going to wait till September to find out what happens next?!" it was nowhere near as satisfying as 1x22.

I have some additional thoughts that I'm going to take to the All Seasons thread.

Share this post


Link to post

From a new interview with Colin:

 

"You see toward the end of Season 3 when Hook had Bae on the ship, he truly would have given up everything -- a life of piracy and all that kind of stuff -- to look after this child who was the son of the woman he loved most in the world before he met Emma. He would have given everything up for him."

 

(I think he said something a similar but less definitive at SDCC, too.) That... is not how I read that conversation at all. I thought he was saying they'd live together on the ship in a life of piracy. I wonder if this is Colin's headcannon or if it came from the writers? How did other people interpret this scene?

Share this post


Link to post

I think Hook would have done whatever Bae wanted him to do. He seemed that desperate to have Bae in his life, so if Bae had made giving up piracy a condition of his staying, I think Hook would have gone for it. It's not like there was all that much to raid and plunder in Neverland, anyway. I've never been sure how much Hook really liked the actual piracy (the raiding and plundering) and how much he liked what went with it, which mostly involved freedom, not answering to anyone, adventure and travel, and possibly coming up with clever plans. What he really wanted with Bae was a family and to keep some remnant of Milah with him, and I do think he'd have given up his revenge against Rumple even because, really, earning the love of Rumple's son would be the most satisfying revenge of all. Everything that Rumple loved but let slip through his fingers would have ended up with Hook.

 

My read on rewatching was that he turned back at the end because of Henry and not wanting to abandon Bae's son the way he abandoned Bae when he let Pan take him. They made a point of showing his reaction every time anyone talked about Henry possibly being left alone by the failsafe, and he barely interacted with Emma in this episode, so I really don't think Emma was his motivation for turning back.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I always read it as him turning around because of Bae

despite the fact that everyone in Neverland accuses him of only coming for Emma and he never corrects them. But I guess he didn't really want to tell them the story -- Emma asks twice and he brushes her off.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
I always read it as him turning around because of Bae

I think it was on behalf of Bae -- helping Henry in honor of Bae. The thought process may have gone like, "Oh, there are those marks I made for Bae. I really screwed that up in letting Pan have him. Maybe I should have tried harder. And now I'm leaving his son behind to be alone in the world and abandoned like his father. Wow, I'm even worse than my own father because I've done this twice. Oh, crap, guess I'd better go back."

 

Though this was also probably influenced by his growing realization that he'd been screwing up a lot of things -- even when he thought he had his revenge, things didn't get better and he had nothing more to live for, but he didn't really want to die. Because of his actions, he was utterly alone in the world and had no one who gave a damn about him. The people he liked wanted nothing to do with him because of the things he'd done, and he despised the people who did want to associate with him, and even they just wanted to use him and had no loyalty to him. Meanwhile, his enemy was part of a community that was willing to fight to save him, and he had a woman who loved him. As Dr. Phil would say, "How's that workin' for you?"

 

The difference between Hook and Regina is that Hook realized that he was alone and no one liked him because he did bad things, while Regina feels justified in doing bad things because she's alone and no one likes her, so the people who don't like her deserve to suffer and it's their fault if she's evil.

 

I think I'll address the spoilered part of the above post in the relationship thread because it's not really about this episode and it's hard to have a good discussion in spoiler bars.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Well, that was underwhelming. I don't understand why the show didn't pace things better... the final four episodes just seemed to be a waste. Why introduce completely new villains with unclear motivations? I don't think the actors for Greg and Tamara were necessarily bad, but their characters were a mess. How could the writers think I'd care about them when I have no clue who they are/what they're doing? Why have Regina diagnose Snow's dark heart only to have Snow just be a guilt-ridden mess rather than actually showing any signs of dark-heartedness? (and why didn't Charming ever point out something like "So maybe you have a dark spot in your heart? You're still behaving as the compassionate, loving woman you've always been. So who cares about it?") Why not commit to Regina feeling guilty over her behavior so that her ending intended sacrifice would feel earned rather than as more character whiplash Regina? (and when *I'm* getting tired of character whiplash Regina, you know there's a problem!) Why introduce a completely new aspect to Bae/Hook's relationship right at the end?

 

I loved the Bae/Hook stuff (and all the Hook stuff in general), so I don't even feel like this episode was bad in and of itself. It would have been great as ep 2 or 3 or maybe even a midpoint of the next season. It just wasn't right for a season finale. 

 

And do not get me started on the Rumpbelle crap at the end. So is it that Belle doesn't remember her time as Lacey even though everyone else remembers their selves and actions under the curse? Or is it that Belle honestly doesn't care that Rumpel was completely happy to be with Lacey, beating people up and humiliating them? Belle is the worst!

 

I guess I can stop complaining that the Charming family treats Regina differently from Rumpel. At least in this episode, they were just as handwavey of Regina's crimes as they are about Rumpel's. They are not very good rulers. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

the final four episodes just seemed to be a waste. Why introduce completely new villains with unclear motivations? I don't think the actors for Greg and Tamara were necessarily bad, but their characters were a mess. How could the writers think I'd care about them when I have no clue who they are/what they're doing?

 

[...]

 

Why not commit to Regina feeling guilty over her behavior so that her ending intended sacrifice would feel earned rather than as more character whiplash Regina? (and when *I'm* getting tired of character whiplash Regina, you know there's a problem!)

 

[...]

 

And do not get me started on the Rumpbelle crap at the end. So is it that Belle doesn't remember her time as Lacey even though everyone else remembers their selves and actions under the curse? Or is it that Belle honestly doesn't care that Rumpel was completely happy to be with Lacey, beating people up and humiliating them? Belle is the worst!

Ah, Zuleikha, Welcome to our Hell. There are cookies on the table to the left, drinks on the table to the right, and an excess of tables for the purpose of flipping straight ahead. Cheers!

Edited by FabulousTater
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

Why introduce a completely new aspect to Bae/Hook's relationship right at the end?

 

To be fair, it was hinted at in Manhattan when Neal recognized Hook, and there was also a deleted scene of Neal sailing the Jolly Roger home as if he'd been on it before in that episode, so not completely new. And, of course, to show us what we should be expecting next season now that they're seemingly headed to Neverland.

 

Looking forward to your season 3 reactions!!

Share this post


Link to post

Why introduce a completely new aspect to Bae/Hook's relationship right at the end?

 

Well, that was mostly Colin's fault for breaking his leg skiing. There was supposed to be more Neal/Hook development before then, but Colin had to be out for so many eps.

 

2B was a mess.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Gotta love Mr. Smee calling Pan "he" like Greg calling Tamara "her". 

I don't really understand how Hook tolerated Smee for centuries. He seems to despise people without scruples or honor, yet Smee is a spineless rat (literally) most of the time. 

The failsafe is an example of poor worldbuilding and planning, imo. Why would it even be built into the Curse? When you really think about it, Rumple wouldn't have placed something in there that would've let Regina stop him from getting to Bae. Giving Storybrooke a self-destruct feels more like carelessness than a necessary precaution. If I were planning how the Curse would work and how it could possibly be totally reversed/destroyed...

Spoiler

I would've gone with either the failsafe or ripping the Curse as Regina did in 3x11, not doing both. That's just cleaner worldbuilding.

For something that seems to be so detrimental to the show's premise, you'd think the writers would've planned that better. To me, the failsafe was thrown in last minute to create some danger for the end of 2B. It didn't actually make sense as a plot device.

Spoiler

And of course, it's never brought up again and an object of mass destruction was just laying around.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

The failsafe is an example of poor worldbuilding and planning, imo. Why would it even be built into the Curse? When you really think about it, Rumple wouldn't have placed something in there that would've let Regina stop him from getting to Bae. Giving Storybrooke a self-destruct feels more like carelessness than a necessary precaution. If I were planning how the Curse would work and how it could possibly be totally reversed/destroyed...

It really did feel like something they pulled out of you-know-where out of convenience since it made no sense.  It also seemed like another rip-off of "Lost", where the Season 2 finale involved the fail-safe, except in that case, it actually made sense and explained a lot.  As usual, A&E took something which worked in another context and bungled the implementation, forcing a square peg into a round hole.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Camera One said:

It really did feel like something they pulled out of you-know-where out of convenience since it made no sense.  It also seemed like another rip-off of "Lost", where the Season 2 finale involved the fail-safe, except in that case, it actually made sense and explained a lot.  As usual, A&E took something which worked in another context and bungled the implementation, forcing a square peg into a round hole.

A&E copied a lot from Lost in S2, especially in 2A. The EF survivors were the Tailgate survivors who even had a Pit with a mole inside. I think they stopped using Lost as a blueprint after 3B and switched to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I wonder if the original idea for the fail-safe was to return everyone to the Enchanted Forest for S3. They were hoping for the okay to use all of the Peter Pan stuff, but needed to plan for it maybe not working out. Having something like the fail-safe meant that they could be working up to using it for the back half and only have to finalize how it all worked out for the finale.

I also suspect some network meddling here in that they stopped with the 80 million disparate plot threads and threw all the main characters on a boat with a united goal, which should have had the effect of keeping fans of all characters interested - well everyone except Belle, who was left behind for no discernible reason.

Share this post


Link to post

The fail safe is just a mess and makes no sense. But yes let's risk everyone's lives to save Regina. Instead of leaving her to have to deal with the consequences of her own actions. Once again, Regina did not change her mind about the fail safe she was unable to do it herself because Greg and Tamara got to it first. Had she gotten to it first she would have done it. Please Snow explain how killing Cora was the easy way out and what your other options were to stopping her? Oh right sorry I forgot you were suppose to let the Villains win. Who cares if they murder people, all that matters is the Villain getting what he or she wants.  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Another episode that is almost good if you ignore the big, gaping ethical hole in the middle.

Taken out of context, Regina’s willingness to sacrifice herself is kind of affecting. But it only winds up being so because of transparent manipulation on the part of the narrative. It is consistent with Regina’s previously established character that she would ultimately be willing to die for Henry (it is not necessarily consistent with her behavior for most of S1, but at this point there’s enough of a history of her caring for him that I’ll accept it). However, beyond that, Regina’s entire affect is almost entirely different in this episode, to the point where she’s essentially not the same person. She’s contrite, snark-free, quietly affectionate, nobly resigned – which is simply not who she has been shown to be for at least the past half-season. It is a version of the same problem I had all the way back at “The Stable Boy,” where unlike other villain origin stories we had gotten and wind up getting on the show, there just wasn’t, to me, believable emotional continuity between who the show was trying to tell us Regina had been and who she had become.

Obviously, people can have layers. I think Rumple is a good example – even with his recent bad behavior with Lacey, and his long history of truly horrific actions, he has been consistently represented as someone with enough emotional depth and nuance that I can buy both that he would be seriously considering killing Henry to save himself (though not without qualms), and that he would finally make the decision to sacrifice himself for Henry in the wake of Bae’s supposed death. But in the case of Regina, there’s this whiplash where she can be represented as a near-total sociopath one week and as, not only a villain with layers, but as someone who can be legitimately treated as a hero the next, to the point where she’s getting loving embraces with an admiring Henry (the kid she mind-wiped two episodes ago when he wouldn’t get on board with her “kill everyone not-us” plan) and the whole town is risking itself to save her from the consequences of her unequivocally evil plotting. Adding to the manipulation is the fact that Tamara and Greg, are placed so firmly in super-villain territory that we’re obliged to root against them and dismiss what might otherwise be legitimate moral claims. And significantly, except for Hook, no one knows about Greg’s history with Regina, so everyone rallying around her, on top of everything else, is predicated in part on lack of highly relevant knowledge that should weaken their sympathies.

Although I suppose that if everything they already know she’s done hasn’t weakened their sympathies, nothing will. The diner speech is one of the most insidious moments we’ve had on a show full of morally problematic scenes. It takes the form of a stirring, genuinely noble call to action, but in context, it is horrifying. Even if Regina had been a total innocent, it wouldn’t be obvious that the right thing to do is to risk every single person in town to prevent one woman from sacrificing herself. As it is, you’re risking everyone in town for a woman who is a) guilty of tons of crimes against all of the townspeople, up to and including murdering their loved ones and b) responsible for the town being in danger in the first place. It is frankly insane, not to mention wildly irresponsible from a leadership perspective, not to let Regina reap the justly deserved consequences of her own plan to kill everyone in the town.

It would be bad enough if this were a decision Mary Margaret made unilaterally. But the show wants us to believe that not only are she and Henry are on-board with it, but that the assembled townspeople – again, all of whom are her victims – unanimously agree that this is something they are willing to do, which besides being ridiculous, puts Emma in the position of being the bad guy who is too cynical and hard-hearted and needs to be taught to believe, when actually, she’s the only person (well, besides Hook, actually) who is making a damn bit of sense. It is transparently false when someone says “Snow and the Prince have never let us down before,” because they are only in this realm at all because Snow decided to give Regina unlimited chances rather than protect her people by ending her for good. And of course, when Snow cites her killing of Cora as an example of doing the wrong thing, the show never bothers to explain just what other options were available to her. It is one thing for a narrative to sometimes allow characters to pull magical McGuffins out of their asses, but you can’t operate in a coherent moral universe under the assumption that a magical McGuffin will always emerge, especially as Snow has plenty of evidence that it frequently doesn’t, leading to things like the deaths of countless people and the destruction of her own family.

By the way, as of this episode, I now have a new headcanon for David’s attitude toward Hook. Even in this episode, where Hook richly deserves David’s punch, given his general villainy and the fact that he had knocked him out the last time they met, David treating Hook so harshly doesn’t track with him standing by supportively as Snow lovingly tends to a wounded Regina and Henry exchanges warm hugs with his supervillain Mommy. So, for my own sanity, I now choose to believe that David’s behavior toward Hook is his way of psychologically coping with being coerced by Snow into accepting the “we are family” policy toward Regina and Rumple. David has a lot less reason to hate Hook, but Hook is the only villain he is still allowed to express any anger towards, so he bears the brunt of David’s suppressed rage against the people who have actually ruined significant parts of his life.

That being said, I don’t want to sugarcoat Hook’s behavior as a villain. In the excellent flashbacks, he may ultimately come to sincerely care for Bae, but before he learns who he is, his first scene with Smee makes it absolutely clear that his initial intention is to hand him over to curry favor with Pan. While later, it becomes obvious that harboring Bae actually is putting Hook and his crew at considerable risk -- somewhat mitigating Hook’s still obviously wrong decision to ultimately give him up after Bae rejects him – Hook’s attitude immediately after saving him is more mercenary thought of gain than fear for his or his crew’s lives. Again, he has better inclinations that are in evidence in his growing fondness for Bae and his obviously genuine offer to give up his revenge quest for him, but this is a guy who is capable of unconscionable behavior.

He fares a lot better in the present, even before turning the JR back around. My interpretation of his decision to work with the heroes in the first place – and I think it is supported by the writing – is that it isn’t grounded primarily in concern about his own survival. Since coming to Storybrooke, Hook has been fairly consistently represented as suicidally committed to his revenge quest; when Tamara and Greg sneeringly ask him if he’s willing to die for his cause, the answer has pretty comprehensively been demonstrated to be “yes.” Even David alludes to this in their scene together, where he’s skeptical of why Hook has suddenly decided to care about surviving. So, I think he comes to Team Hero because he isn’t willing to let the entire town die, and is using the selfish concern for his own survival as a cover. Now, that only goes so far, given that he comes very close to leaving them to die in the end anyway, but I find it hard to blame him too much under the circumstances. He is prepared to help to stop Greg and Tamara from massacring the town, but that doesn’t extend to being willing and eager to join everyone else in voluntarily martyring themselves for Regina.

I also want to point out that, whatever is said or implied later, I think it is very, very clear that Hook comes back primarily because of Bae, as it should be. I love CS, but the best part of this episode is the development of Hook’s relationship with Bae and how it obviously feeds into his actions in the present, and looking at his decision through shipper-goggles undermines that. Emma’s speech – and the fact that she is among those who will die – is a factor, but he isn’t doing it for her, any more than Rumple is; in an episode in which Bae explicitly parallels the two of them in a negative way, ironically, Hook and Rumple wind up being paralleled in a more positive light when they set aside their differences and their selfishness and commit to saving Henry largely because of their respective relationships to Bae. Though I think we could have used a little more reaction or commentary from Hook before he agrees to let Rumple on the Jolly Roger at all, which is such a fundamental reversal and betrayal of the quest that has guided him since Milah’s death that it needed to be treated with more care.

Also, one last, small point, as it has come up on other threads, and I realized it is something I had the wrong impression about previously: Bae (who, by the way, I love so damn much for his bravery in coming at Hook with a sword to avenge Milah) obviously does believe Hook very quickly when he tells him the truth about Milah; by the end of the scene, he is blaming him for breaking up his family and using him as a tool against Rumple, not for killing his mother. So yeah, Neal has known that Rumple crushed his mother’s heart this entire time.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

She’s contrite, snark-free, quietly affectionate, nobly resigned – which is simply not who she has been shown to be for at least the past half-season.

But, weirdly, she manages to be contrite without any admission of wrongdoing. She justifies having got out the failsafe on the basis that "you were going to leave me behind," as though leaving her in the town she created as the place where she could be happy was the same thing as her killing everyone in the town. She does take responsibility for the failsafe, but somehow without acknowledging that she was wrong to do so. She's only sad that it's going to potentially hurt Henry. She's sad that she was tortured, but not at all contrite about murdering Kurt and doesn't seem to take responsibility for her treatment of Kurt and Owen being what's brought all this upon them. She somehow manages to totally change personalities without admitting that she was wrong in the way she was before.

The whole "we're family!" thing to Regina that's one of the themes of this show is so warped and unhealthy. Yes, family should matter, but the philosophy works better in terms of the "found family," where someone who behaves like family gets treated like family. This is the opposite, where someone with blood or other relationship ties gets a free pass, regardless of how they behave or treat people. So, what is it that makes Regina count as "family" that makes her worthy of putting everything on the line for? Was it her marrying Snow's father as part of a scheme to be able to get close to Snow and destroy her life, or was it her adopting Henry in an attempt to fill the hole in her heart created by murdering her father to cast the curse or in a desperate attempt to have a child after all the kids she tried to force to stay with her by separating them from their parents rejected her? It's especially ironic if it's the latter, given that they used the family reason for why they rescued her from one of those kids she tried to force to be her son.

Not only is it crazy that the townspeople are unanimous in putting everything on the line to rescue Regina, but it's only about ten people they've gathered in Granny's. What do the rest of the townspeople think? Were they just going to use the bean to save those people and leave the rest of the town to die? They'd said they were gathering everyone in Granny's, but Granny's can't hold the entire town. If they were saving everyone, you'd think it would be out on Main Street and all those people we see running and screaming would have been gathered there.

Then there's the extremely questionable decision to use the bean to send the failsafe through a portal, where they don't know what effect it will have. Going back to the Trolley Problem, that's like if the person who initially set up the trolley to run over all the people she's tied to the tracks gets stuck on the tracks, too, so her child is going to become an orphan, and she can divert the trolley, but it will kill her, and all the other people she's tied to the tracks and who can escape decide to send the trolley into a nearby building instead, even though they don't know how much damage it will do or if there are people in the building. They're willing to potentially destroy an entire other world rather than let Regina die to stop the megaweapon she created and was planning to use.

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

While later, it becomes obvious that harboring Bae actually is putting Hook and his crew at considerable risk -- somewhat mitigating Hook’s still obviously wrong decision to ultimately give him up after Bae rejects him – Hook’s attitude immediately after saving him is more mercenary thought of gain than fear for his or his crew’s lives.

While his original plan to hand the random kid over is bad, and his original thought about Bae being to use him to get info for how to kill Rumple is cold, I'm less harsh on his ultimate decision to hand him over to Pan. Bae was leaving, regardless. The odds were extremely slim that Pan wouldn't have managed to get his hands on Bae almost as soon as Bae left the Jolly Roger. Pan had threatened to destroy Hook's crew if he didn't hand Bae over. If Hook had refused to turn Bae over and just let Bae go, it would have been the kind of pointless gesture we criticize Snow for. Bae would still have been caught by Pan, Hook's crew would have been destroyed, but hey, Hook would have done the "right thing," so I guess that's okay? At this time, it was still his original crew from his navy days, so probably the closest thing to a family Hook had ever had. I can understand him choosing them over a kid who was going to leave anyway. It's not a noble decision, but it's pragmatic.

10 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I wonder if the original idea for the fail-safe was to return everyone to the Enchanted Forest for S3. They were hoping for the okay to use all of the Peter Pan stuff, but needed to plan for it maybe not working out.

It definitely feels like there's been an abrupt reversal. Up to the very end, they could have changed course and not gone to Neverland. Yeah, there's the flashback stuff that points to Neverland, but that could have been treated as thematic about Neal and Hook rather than as a literal setup for the next plot. None of Greg and Tamara's attitudes or actions fit with them having been working for Pan. Taking Henry doesn't seem to have ever been part of the plan until the last second, even though we see that Pan has been searching for Henry for more than a century. Why waste all that time with the failsafe and all the other scheming when Henry was the real goal? It's like they got up to the last bit of the last episode of the season and abruptly threw everything else out to change plans.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But, weirdly, she manages to be contrite without any admission of wrongdoing. She justifies having got out the failsafe on the basis that "you were going to leave me behind," as though leaving her in the town she created as the place where she could be happy was the same thing as her killing everyone in the town. She does take responsibility for the failsafe, but somehow without acknowledging that she was wrong to do so. She's only sad that it's going to potentially hurt Henry. She's sad that she was tortured, but not at all contrite about murdering Kurt and doesn't seem to take responsibility for her treatment of Kurt and Owen being what's brought all this upon them. She somehow manages to totally change personalities without admitting that she was wrong in the way she was before.

ITA that she hasn't actually made any serious moral leap forward. What I'm saying is that if you hadn't seen the previous episodes (let alone the rest of the series) and didn't know exactly what was happening, you might be forgiven for thinking that there were nuances in the scenario that did make what she was doing at least a little more understandable. Because what she was trying to do was downright sociopathic, with zero mitigating factors, and that's not the character being depicted in this episode.

I'll also note here that there is a really, really significant difference between what Regina does in being willing to sacrifice herself to stop the failsafe and Hook turning his ship around. Hook was 100% home free. Had he continued, he could have started over anywhere he wanted - the only thing holding him back was guilt. Whereas Regina was going to die either way. She wasn't actually sacrificing anything, she was just making sure that if she was going to die anyway, at least Henry would be better off. Given who Regina is, that actually does constitute a step forward for her, but it is hardly the kind of transformation that should count for much with Snow et al when weighed against everything else she has done. OTOH, Hook coming back to risk himself is deserving of a lot of credit. If we ever were going to start applying something closer to a RL legal system to the show, Regina being willing to sacrifice herself might be worth not giving her the death penalty (assuming a reality in which one could actually be sure that a prison could hold her). Hook coming back for everyone would be legitimately deserving of a pardon for past crimes, under the logic that it wouldn't be fair to punish him when the only reason he's in custody in the first place is because he passed up the chance to escape to save their lives.

21 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

While his original plan to hand the random kid over is bad, and his original thought about Bae being to use him to get info for how to kill Rumple is cold, I'm less harsh on his ultimate decision to hand him over to Pan. Bae was leaving, regardless. The odds were extremely slim that Pan wouldn't have managed to get his hands on Bae almost as soon as Bae left the Jolly Roger. Pan had threatened to destroy Hook's crew if he didn't hand Bae over. If Hook had refused to turn Bae over and just let Bae go, it would have been the kind of pointless gesture we criticize Snow for. Bae would still have been caught by Pan, Hook's crew would have been destroyed, but hey, Hook would have done the "right thing," so I guess that's okay? At this time, it was still his original crew from his navy days, so probably the closest thing to a family Hook had ever had. I can understand him choosing them over a kid who was going to leave anyway. It's not a noble decision, but it's pragmatic.

I do think it is mitigation, but in this case, I'm enough of an absolutist that I still think it was wrong, especially as Hook and his crew are neither total innocents nor totally helpless. Pan had threatened the Jolly Roger, and I doubt it was an idle threat, but Hook is a formidable fighter with a trained crew and a known ability to talk his way out of trouble. It seems to me that this wasn't quite enough of an imminent and guaranteed destruction scenario to justify what he did. And presumably, he had some plan for how he was going to get them all away from Pan if Bae had agreed to come with him.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I do think it is mitigation, but in this case, I'm enough of an absolutist that I still think it was wrong, especially as Hook and his crew are neither total innocents nor totally helpless. Pan had threatened the Jolly Roger, and I doubt it was an idle threat, but Hook is a formidable fighter with a trained crew and a known ability to talk his way out of trouble. It seems to me that this wasn't quite enough of an imminent and guaranteed destruction scenario to justify what he did. And presumably, he had some plan for how he was going to get them all away from Pan if Bae had agreed to come with him.

I think the crew could have possibly defended themselves and Bae if Bae had stayed with them. There probably would have been casualties, but the crew likely would have been willing to take the risk for Milah's son (since she seemed to have been well-regarded by the crew). With Bae gone, the crew might have been able to defend themselves (they're pretty vague on how, exactly, Pan would have destroyed them -- physical fight with a swarm of Lost Boys or something magical?), still with casualties. But Pan more than likely still would have been able to get his hands on Bae. Whether Hook let Bae row away on his own in one of the boats or whether they dropped him off elsewhere on the island, if Pan was a threat to a ship full of pirates with military experience, Bae didn't stand a chance on his own. So, either Hook takes a principled stand and refuses to hand Bae over, letting Bae go off on his own, with Pan still getting Bae and the crew being at risk, or he gives Bae up, protecting his crew and Bae ending up with the same fate he would have had if Hook hadn't handed him over (possibly better off because he might have tried to fight the Lost Boys off if he hadn't been taken by surprise). Or I guess there's not handing Bae over, but also not letting him leave the ship and hoping he'd calm down after he had a chance to think, but that means holding him prisoner. I don't think Hook had been in Neverland long enough to know of any truly safe places he could have left Bae, where Pan wouldn't have found him. There really wasn't a right answer, but I'm okay with the choice Hook made being the most practical that has the least risk for the most people. It's not a direct parallel to the situation of the Storybrooke gang sacrificing themselves rather than letting Regina die, since Bae was an innocent not responsible for the situation he was in, but it still comes down to the concept of not making futile sacrifices in the name of "doing the right thing." To some extent, Bae was making a non-pragmatic principled stand in insisting on leaving a place where he might have been safe and going out where he'd be a sitting duck because he didn't want to be around the man who broke up his family. Probably the best moral outcome would have been for Bae to not flounce off and stay on the ship, with the pirates defending him. As for the practical outcome ...

Spoiler

It looks like Bae got away from the Lost Boys anyway and he and Hook patched things up, with Hook looking after him, so no harm was ultimately done and everyone probably came out of that situation with the best possible result, given the circumstances. Not that we got to see any of this.

Share this post


Link to post

According to the Moral Compass that came with my All Realms Combined Complete DVD set, Hook was perfectly justified to give Bae up because (please wait... the wheel is spinning)... he was SUCH a brat.  

Hope that helps.

The Once Upon a Time Moral Foundation™

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

To some extent, Bae was making a non-pragmatic principled stand in insisting on leaving a place where he might have been safe and going out where he'd be a sitting duck because he didn't want to be around the man who broke up his family. Probably the best moral outcome would have been for Bae to not flounce off and stay on the ship, with the pirates defending him

Things were happening really quickly, though. Bae has literally just found out that his mother abandoned him, his father killed his mother, and the guy he's been getting close to is the one who broke up his family. Plus he's 14. He wasn't thinking rationally enough to justify giving him up on those grounds. At minimum, Hook could have pointed out to him that as he couldn't get him back to the Darlings, leaving the ship with Pan after him was suicidal. 

In any case, I still think that, as it was set up, the threat from Pan was too undefined and non-absolute to make it OK to sacrifice an innocent. This wasn't yet an unambiguous case of "Either we give person x up, or all of us die, including person x." It was a case of risking the loss of a certain number of adult pirates - who voluntarily live a life of constant risk -- in order to save an innocent teenage boy. That's not all that similar to what's going on with Snow at the diner, and not just because Bae is innocent and Regina isn't. 

This show loves putting people in no-win situations and then condemning them for their actions, but the situation with Pan doesn't rise to the level of a no-win situation. It was thorny enough that Hook giving Bae up doesn't make him irredeemable, not to excuse what he did. 

Share this post


Link to post

I watched one clip of the episode and it was refreshing how Emma was allowed to blame the actual people responsible.  Too bad Henry had to interject with a "Stop!"

To Regina: "Well, figure it out. It's your fault."
To Hook: "And no thanks to you.  Regina just told us you were working with Tamara and Greg to get your revenge."

I also rewatched the diner speech scene, and another rip-off of the iconic "Lost" line about live together, or die alone.  Except in this case, it was just stupid.  Emma said to Hook, "You can join us, and be part of something.  Or you can do what you can do best, and be alone."  It's all heightened and dramatic but really, that line was stating the obvious.  You can stay and be part of our suicide pact or you can leave.  

I wonder how long a portal can stay open.  Would the portal stay open long enough for every person in Storybrooke to jump into it?  If that was their original plan, then we're supposed to believe that is the case.  Which begs the question why didn't Hook just throw the bean on Main Street and jump in, and everyone in town could jump into it there.  I guess he wanted to keep his precious ship but why did he need to sail so far out?  Why not throw the bean off the dock?  There's wanting to save your own skin, and there's saving your own skin AND letting everyone else die even though that wouldn't impact your own survival.  That's why I'm with Shania Twain.  Hook coming back don't impress me much.  

Edited by Camera One

Share this post


Link to post
38 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Which begs the question why didn't Hook just throw the bean on Main Street and jump in, and everyone in town could jump into it there.  I guess he wanted to keep his precious ship but why did he need to sail so far out?  Why not throw the bean off the dock?  There's wanting to save your own skin, and there's saving your own skin AND letting everyone else die even though that wouldn't impact your own survival.  That's why I'm with Shania Twain.  Hook coming back don't impress me much.  

That's...not a bad point, but I'm not sure that we're supposed to think about the logistics that deeply; the show just presents it as Hook saving his own skin and getting out of Dodge, not maliciously deciding he's just in the mood to let a bunch of people die for no reason. But regardless of how bad the initial action was (and yeah, it would be considerably worse in your scenario), it doesn't change the moral value of Hook's decision to come back. 

Share this post


Link to post

The bean logistics never made any sense anyway.  Neal fell through and the portal shut immediately. Same with when Bae initially went through. Also, although via different means of obtaining a portal, both times Emma & Snow went through, the portal closed right behind them. How the whole town was going to get through is a mystery to me. I always figured Hook was getting out of Dodge before anyone noticed the bean was missing and could magically stop him from using it. Presumably, he wants his home to go with him, so sailing farther out to sea makes sense. Who knows what the logistics of where you end up are either.  I know you're supposed to think of where you want to go, but presumably that's not like GPS coordinates, so maybe he needs to be far out to sea to not run aground wherever he ends up. 

Honestly, if I were Hook and I'd just heard Snow "Harder Paths" White and the rest of the morons of Storybrooke with their idiotic idea that basically sacrifices everyone in order to potentially save the mass murdering sociopath who'd just tried to kill me a few hours ago, I'd get the hell out of there too. He was also the only one who noticed that Emma didn't believe any of that bullshit either and made an effort to figure out why she was going along with it - as if maybe he was trying to find a reason not to do what he was planning to do. She gives him that reason and that's definitely why he turns around. Emma did it for Henry. Hook did it in memory/honor of Bae.

In terms of Bae/Pan/Hook, this wasn't Hook's first time in Neverland. While it's not explicitly stated, Hook had too much knowledge and understanding of the place when he was discussing it in "The Crocodile". Maybe it's changed a bit since he'd last been there, but he definitely knew enough. It was also clear that he'd had some kind of communication with Pan in which threats were given, so I'll just say that he knew exactly what kind of possible weapons he'd be facing from Peter Pan.  His not handing Bae over was an extreme risk, while handing him over once Bae rejected him was the best possible thing he could do for himself and his crew. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

His not handing Bae over was an extreme risk, while handing him over once Bae rejected him was the best possible thing he could do for himself and his crew. 

It might be the best way to maximize the chances of survival for the largest number of people, but despite generally having a lot of sympathy for utilitarian calculations, I think there are situations where something actually is so morally wrong that you are obliged to take on any degree of risk short of near-certain suicide to avoid it. I won't necessarily blame a person too harshly if they can't live up to this standard - I'm far from sure that I could -- but I'm still going to consider it wrong. And as I don't think the risk Hook and the crew were under rose to the level of near-certain death - especially as Hook apparently considered it risky but not suicidal to harbor Bae and presumes that he and Bae would have a chance to escape together -- to me, what he does falls under the category of understandable but still clearly wrong.

It is also worth taking into account, I think, the fact that prior to learning who Bae was, Hook had already been planning to turn him over to Pan, which indicates that sacrificing a young teen wasn't totally beyond his moral event horizon. That makes me less inclined to assume that Hook was only induced to do what he did under the severest duress. He was willing to fight for Bae if Bae hadn't rejected him, and even when Bae did reject him, he wouldn't have offered him up for possible murder if he wasn't under a real and serious threat. But his moral compass was flexible enough that it didn't, IMO, have to be a clear-cut life or death situation for him to have done what he did. In fact, while Colin plays the scene sad rather than vengeful, I think there may have been at least an element of "Well, fine. You rejected me - on your own head be it, then." 

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Honestly, if I were Hook and I'd just heard Snow "Harder Paths" White and the rest of the morons of Storybrooke with their idiotic idea that basically sacrifices everyone in order to potentially save the mass murdering sociopath who'd just tried to kill me a few hours ago, I'd get the hell out of there too.

I would want to get out of there too, but I don't think many people would pick an exit route that only allows them to survive while everyone else faces certain death.  It's like Hook stole the only axe in a burning building and instead of busting through the front door, he goes into a secret tunnel and opens a door in the back.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×