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David T. Cole

The White Queen

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On 4/22/2017 at 6:30 PM, WatchrTina said:

 

But sticking to the topic of The White Queen -- what an interesting take on the War of the Roses.  In this version, Henry VII owes all his success and his kingship to his mother's smarmy second husband riding into the fight at the last minute.  Is there ANY historical validity to that?  I guess it doesn't matter -- it made for good drama (except that, you know, we all already knew how Richard III dies -- "A horse!  A horse!  My kingdom for a horse!")

 

It was actually his mother's smarmy fourth husband but otherwise correct.

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And her brother in law.  HVII was no mug though and knew an untrustworthy man when he saw one;  the relationship didn't save Stanley's life later in the reign.

There is some truth in the Stanleys' intervention having won the day for Henry, but it also seems that they held off until it became apparent that Richard was done for, and of course once he was dead it was all over.

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Elizabeth W: Perhaps now we have the boy who will bring back peace to England- half York, half Tudor.
Margaret: He is only Tudor. And he is not just a boy. He is my son's heir and heir to the throne of England. Of that there is no doubt.
Elizabeth W: There is always doubt, Lady Margaret, for I once had two boys who were destined there themselves. Nothing is ever certain. Or can you read the future?

Cecily: I don't think I should like to be queen. The clothes are all too ugly.

Henry: Everywhere I look around me, nobles conspire against me. Servants slip each other notes. They smile into my face and then behind me draw their knives.
Elizabeth Y: That is what it is to be king.

Henry: I don't ask that you love me in the way that you loved [Richard]. But I had hoped that you may come to have a tenderness at least. Kindness even.
Elizabeth Y: And would that be enough for you? You don't want someone who burns to be with you? Someone who rides across the battlefield just to hear your voice?

Henry: I know you cannot love me. I know it is beyond what you can give. I only ask that you do not plot against my life. At least spare me that humiliation.

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Henry VII regarding Perkin Warbeck, the pretender to the throne:  "He taunts me with his dazzle."

That is perfect.  I need to find a way to work this into everyday conversation.

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Just started this and remembered why I stopped last time. Elizabeth Woodville is supposed to be this transcendent beauty with silver-gilt hair (presumably platinum blond) not red-haired with freckles (and not THAT beautiful).  Also, cannot get over the fact that her dress has a zipper in the back and she's wearing a bra under it.

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On April 24, 2017 at 2:47 PM, stinkogingko said:

It was actually his mother's smarmy fourth husband but otherwise correct.

Who am I missing? Edmund, Henry Stafford, Lord Stanley ... I may not have gotten to the fourth because I'm still a little behind (much more up-to-date on the Tudors from HVIII on, but my late mom was a member of the RIII society and I've been unemployed and I missed WQ first time around, so am in the midst of a blitz of bingewatching WQ and reading the whole Gregory oeuvre in chronological order and will pick up with White Princess when I get there in the books).

So far, Stafford is pretty much my favorite character in WQ (assuming I have name right ... Stafford being Margaret's long-suffering husband who did NOT father her baby and looked on while she made googoo eyes with Jasper, yes?)

Edited by PamelaMaeSnap · Reason: Because "reading" makes more sense than "eading"

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Margaret Beaufort was initially married to John de la Pole, heir of the duke of Suffolk. The marriage was annulled, presumably so the very wealthy Margaret could be given to the King's not-very-wealthy half brother Edmund Tudor. De la Pole was then wed to an earlier Elizabeth of York, sister to Edward IV and Richard III. Their son was the Earl of LIncoln that fought Henry VII at Stoke.

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Watched a program over the weekend where thru records they make a provable claim (historical records) that Edward VI (Lizzie's daddy) was actually illegitimate.  Church records show that Ed's daddy was not even in the country during the time he was conceived making it more plausible that he was the result of Cecily's affair with an archer.   With Edward not being the legal heir by birthright they explained that Maggie (Margaret Pole) and her children were the true heirs and they tracked down the living heir who lives in Australia.  Interesting stuff.  If that were true there would have been no Henry VIII (England may still be Catholic), no ELizabeth I, no Victoria, no current royal family.  

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Just found this on Eddie's Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_IV_of_England#Legitimacy

 

Even if Edward IV was illegitimate, he could in any case claim the crown from Henry VI by right of conquest. He also had a direct (albeit legally barred) blood-claim to the throne through his mother Cecily, who was a great-granddaughter of Edward III through John of Gaunt and his illegitimate daughter (Cecily's mother) Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland. Although this claim is via an illegitimate line, it is the same as the claim of Henry Tudor, who dislodged the House of York from the throne in 1485. It is also disputed that the line was in fact illegitimate, as John of Gaunt Duke of Lancaster married his mistress Katherine Swynford, who was the mother of the Beauforts, after the death of his second wife Costanza of Castile. The Beauforts were thus 'legitimised' and acknowledged as such by Richard II, though with the proviso as noted above that they would barred from succession to the crown.

 

So I guess, history still could have followed the path it did even if he was illegitimate.

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The Tudor era story is that Richard of Gloucester had Edward IV's sons declared illegitimate because his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous in order to claim the throne for himself. Still, given Edward's reputation as a womanizer who was known to have mistresses, is there any possibility that Edward had exchanged marriage vows with a previous woman in order to bed her? One would think that Gloucester, being close to his brother and loyal throughout the Wars of the Roses, could have been in a position to know.

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On 5/17/2018 at 2:51 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Anyone see this?!! We should maybe start a Spanish Princess sub thread when we gave an air date. 

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/starz-the-spanish-princess-charlotte-hope-casting-1202813705/

Looks like none of the cast of The White Princess is returning so once again, there will be no cast continuity.  And also once again, it's based on Phillipa Gregory's revisionist history.  Ah well...I missed all the delightful snarking during both the first two series - I just watched both this past week.  I'm looking forward to joining in for this one, as I'm sure it won't be any better than those were.

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On 7/12/2018 at 9:36 AM, watcher1006 said:

The Tudor era story is that Richard of Gloucester had Edward IV's sons declared illegitimate because his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous in order to claim the throne for himself. Still, given Edward's reputation as a womanizer who was known to have mistresses, is there any possibility that Edward had exchanged marriage vows with a previous woman in order to bed her? One would think that Gloucester, being close to his brother and loyal throughout the Wars of the Roses, could have been in a position to know.

True, but if that was the case, why did no one bring that up when Edward was alive? Waiting until he’s dead and gone, and then claiming his marriage of 20yrs wasn’t valid and two sons he recognized as his princes weren’t legible to rule is fishy. Especially since said woman married another AND at this point was deceased herself.

Had Edward “faux married” in order to get a woman into bed, and then wanted to marry Elizabeth he likely would’ve taken care of that (with an annulment, or having the woman swear they were not married) as not to make his sons illegitimate. 

All things being equal, Richard hated the Woodvilles and wanted to be king. He thought he was a better choice than a teenage boy. If Edward IV had died 10yrs later when his sons were grown men this would’ve ended differently. 

Edited by Scarlett45
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