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PinkChicken

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  1. The back door thing is extra annoying because to me the implied open door would be grace left behind, something which is strengthened by Michael's display of control over the monsters who also have his grace. Except we already established that some grace can/does get left behind when an angel leaves, yet we see Gadreel get kicked out of Sam & require a second yes even though (Tamoh) probably had some too. Maybe it is just an archangel thing, or a forward planning thing. Or perhaps the amount of power it requires to be able to split more of it and maintain contact over long distance is just something only archangels can usually do - Raphael had a direct line to his vessel too, and can a catatonic man really give a second yes either? Maybe the writers looked at Raphael and thought well obviously the answer should be no, so there must be something else that can happen here... They had Michael monologue long enough they could have been a little more specific 😞 [not to mention that they never showed how or if they verified that Dean was actually Dean again either time, and why they wouldn't have picked up on that]
  2. I guess i kinda ascribed to the belief that Billy was deliberately antagonising the Winchesters right off the bat in season 11 (I know they hadn't thought of it yet lol) because she absolutely knew what would happen and wanted the promotion. Despite all her rules she has also been quite self serving, plays a manipulative need-to-know with her advice, and breaks them on her own judgement. I absolutely agree with #2. At that point in the fight it isn't even about conviction, because their focus has changed to trapping him, they don't even try to eject him at the end. But I was thinking of the earlier mirror scene, where Dean gets to quite clearly say "get out" and it doesn't work (IMO that scene would have worked better as some kind of headache flash-into Dean drowning, given what comes later).
  3. 1. Yeah, they never did draw a direct causality to anything other than Billie becoming Death, and even though she doesn't like them shes not really evil enough for me to count it as a personal consequence. Some people seem to think Castiels death was it but that was also part of a completely separate series of events... Then again they had Ruby call angels cosmic in season 4 when she was talking them up, so maybe the consequences never really were all that big :') 2. Even Gadreel took a couple of tries and told Sam he wasn't strong enough initially, so I think it requires a certain amount of conviction based on the power of the angel (even though I don't like that then the following assumption is that Dean doesn't have it, yet has enough to keep him locked up), so its probably just an archangel thing. 3. I agree - but its still annoying then that the stolen grace seemed to be actively killing Castiel, rather than fading away to leave him 'harmlessly' human again. By that logic it should at least have given Lucifer reflux or something lol. 4. lol 5. While I don't mind that we haven't been splitting yet even more time on it, it wouldn't make any sense if heaven ends up having no stakes in this Michael story. Having him in a cell up there could probably power heaven easily, and (narrative ass-pull or not) I'm not surprised Naomi knew where to find him. This could explain why they're happy to leave Castiel with the Winchesters and have him keeping an eye on Jack in case he also becomes an option again. BUT If the situation was really as dire as all that, then why on earth have they left Anael alone. Also when it was only Metatron, all the doors were closed and the veil was royally messed up, so while the stored souls didn't actively fall like Naomi threatened, I wouldn't really call that running (Its also implied that the tablet let him get a lot more power, & who's to say he didn't just lock all the individual heavens doors and let the lights go as dim as possible). I always thought it was weird that Chuck was the one to send Kevin up. As if the veil wasn't dealt with as soon as heaven re-opened & as if they didn't contact Linda Tran to let her know it was an option whenever she was ready to burn the ring. And then because of that, on the assumption that it wasn't, I then thought Billie fixed it and collected all the veil stragglers when she made the soul bomb. The stupidity about no angels in or out is already circumvented if reapers aren't angels anymore. Then they were never subject to the specific angel elevator and can get souls in in whatever mysterious way they want. - and this also being the only reason it isn't dumb that there are multiples of them on shift watching the Winchesters since they are no longer counted among any angels who should be up there keeping the lights on. The empty being the newest and biggest bad so far (and possibly counted among the few entities who exist as one individual between AUs [because Id like it if the empty was the space between]) gives it a pass in my book, for being able to take on anything set up or said by less powerful characters earlier, because it wasn't on their radar when they said it.
  4. I don't have the time or brain power to make a huge comment, but one of the only moments where it specifically looked like maybe they were trying to acknowledge Deans absence re: workload, is when Sam asked Maggie to check the traffic cams, and she was like "no?" (I don't know how to do that/ I'm busy), and Sam had to do it himself. That is something Dean would have already been doing without being asked.
  5. I think its pretty much a given that Dean will feel bad if Michael gets out, so I just hope the other characters actually try and be reassuring instead of saying literally nothing. They might not be accusatory, but they have been silent a lot in the face of others putting Dean down recently.
  6. Yeah despite what people have said in reviews, imo there are a lot of things in this episode that I don't think would be taken the right way by a general audience. For example I took the Sam is a lawyer/Dean is a criminal at face value that its just because Dean kept hunting (a lot of beheadings =a lot of vampires), but the general viewer also wouldn't necessarily know that. But I personally didn't see those as slights against Sam because I am a long term viewer (& the lighter thing was usually Dean in the past anyway) so we know that was obviously a meta joke. I do think the most annoying thing they would go after with Sam was the so called "prissiness" but aside from mentioning hair care products they haven't done that so much in recent seasons (and that's pretty much a meta joke at this point too) [The number of jokes they make on the show, that were originally banter from a convention is huge lol]. I do kind of agree with this, and especially given their history I never really think it is Dean trying to belittle Sam but is some dumb veiled 'manly' compliment, because it still recognises Sams strengths. But I guess that's a personal reading. Maybe another factor is the type of ribbing they both get, Because Deans (Jensens) humour is often so much more physical, its generally something he does on his own, whether its "deliberately" overplayed by Dean in-universe or not, and in some cases I think he does, either to piss off Sam or other side characters (usually authority figures), or to put them off balance. So if its read wrong, its just a stupid thing that Dean did, and sometimes Sams dry "straight man" bitch face is almost a little too stiff for me (sometimes I wish he'd just crack a little and roll his eyes while hiding a smile). The jokes levelled at Sam are usually actual banter that Dean verbalises or teases, because just showing Sam do the thing (growing a beard /taking runs in the morning etc.) isn't generally seen as a bad trait at all [maybe this is why some people think Dean is mean because he actually initiates this teasing...]. And usually Deans mannerisms make it obvious that he is joking, or he will backtrack at the end of the sentence, like haha youre such a nerd, no but seriously you do the thing because you're better at it. Sadly I have to agree with this. Perhaps the difference is that they write it in so often now that it isn't actually Jensen taking the piss half the time (even though hes happy to if hes told to), because sometimes it doesn't annoy me, and sometimes it does. And a lot of the time its because it feels unnecessary, or out of place, or forced, like it was just shoehorned in...
  7. idk somehow it just used to feel more balanced, or at the very least good natured. As you have pointed out a lot of things either overlap, or occur in pairs, or were only a learned ability for either one of them in later seasons. On a separate note I think Jack taking things from either of them isn't supposed to be edging either one out, but an attempt to show that he values what they each have brought to him as a kind of mentor. But in that vein, what he seems to get from either of them is evidence of what the writers seem to think Dean or Sam (or Castiel) brings to the table (& we didn't even get to see Dean teach Jack how to fight because of Michael; ~this is me still holding out for a gun range scene). It might not even be anything nefarious like the thread above kinda reads, but just an effect of the abysmally low number of episodes that each writer has watched. There isn't any consistency anymore. Dean is supposed to be the "brawn" so they assume that having him be able to throw an angel knife into someones neck down a hallway is normal (even if it was kinda cool). Sam is supposed to be the "brains" so they have him hold a laughably oversize book to recite one sentence that even I could remember from season 8 four years before. I always assumed that Dean passed on Franks tips to Sam ages ago, so searching for cases, & checking traffic cams is a thing they can both do, but Sam is still mostly in charge of the MOL files and associated computer stuff. There is also the problem of things becoming assumed knowledge and being pushed farther and farther off screen. Unless we need a 'time lapse' or 'look at how exhausted the boys are' kind of moment we don't see a lot of research, just the end exposition result. We actually haven't even seen Dean work on baby in ages. But it is assumed that they do it, and obviously someone did it between episodes. Because it is an established canon and fanbase they don't show as many of these things anymore unless it is a deliberate popular fanservice moment (and we got plenty of those this week), but these are the things that matter to a characters depth. Either they do know what they're talking about and like taking the piss expecting us to be able to tell when it matters, or they haven't bothered familiarizing themselves with the canon enough to be consistent at other times. They have always played expired food as part of the sloppy-Dean gag, but they do seem to have forgotten that Dean can actually cook things (other than bacon) (imo it has actually always been a little surprising how little we ever saw Sam cook, given how much more he cares about diet). And therein I think lies the biggest problem. There are more gags and throwaway lines now than there is genuine content that people would accept as a consistent character trait, which only adds to the inconsistency in later seasons, and the sheer volume of it has effectively started counting as character traits because that's whats up there so what can we do; its canon now. If Sam is more or less in charge of the records & cataloging (and I'm wondering if we will ever get a scene or background dressing suggesting he sorted through all the junk they found this week) why is there an important box labelled only "gross stuff"? Despite very recent occurrences of Dean hacking the traffic cams and having to teach Mary computers, in both 12.15 and 13.15 they have him "joke" that the internet isn't only for porn anymore. Even ignoring the fact that its exactly the same joke twice, they aren't even funny, were they just feeling a little low on the "Dean is a sleaze who likes too much porn" o-meter that season with the gradual reduction in hookups? With regards to languages, one recent Sam language moment that sticks out to me is mostly supposed to be us laughing at Dean pronouncing some french wrong, when it could have been a "here Sam this ones in french and I know you're better at that stuff". Instead it made Dean look stupid, or Sam look pretentious (depending on whether you want to believe Dean butchered the words deliberately as a joke or not). I do think they're pretty even in the trivial stuff at least; flying to clowns, star trek to harry potter, cowboys to serial killers, pie, burger & beer to "Lance armstrong" & kale (lol) - even if this need to be "fair" also contributes to the unnecessary dichotomy and splitting of roles. In 14 years of content, no blanket statements or solid roles are going to stick in a discussion of this show, but I think the biggest peev has always been in the delivery. And more than not, the delivery leaves Dean as a punch line. So while your reading makes just as much sense once you put it into your words; while I'm watching the show I'm too busy being annoyed at why they made Dean a bumbling idiot while he did it to fully appreciate that he actually got exposition of the week.
  8. The bold bit is really quite sad, and you can tell that Dabb thinks its true by the writing this season. Fact is it has been stated in almost every interview where other actors talk about Jensen that he gives so much to the scene, even when its not his coverage that he actually brings up everyone around him. I don't understand what issues these writers have with Dean that they don't even seem to enjoy writing good content for Jensen tbh. Even the editors love it because it gives them twice as much material to work with re: reaction shots and stuff to space out dialogue. The man could create chemistry with a brick wall. I didn't even like Jack until the ep where he gets some time with Dean because that was the first time they let him be an actual character, imo they didn't let Sam interact with him personally, past his use in the main storyline before that. They really are stuck in this zero-sum-game as some of you have said, or create this dumb dichotomy in the characters when they're supposed to be a team. They don't need to remove Dean or dumb him down or have him being a passive cheerleader to bring other characters up and the more they try the more artificial it feels. On the other hand tptb have always proven themselves to be pretty horrible at showing things organically on screen, so maybe the fact that Dean does technically have the 'big Michael arc' this season is making them think they need to give Sam more to do on the side, and it just isn't balancing out on screen.
  9. PinkChicken

    S14 E13: Lebanon - Episode 300

    I miss so many posts with timezones I cant even quote them all. At the very least I'm really loving the conversation this episode opened up and that people here are much less combative about John opinions than I've seen elsewhere. (I hope any of my posts aren't included in the ones that seem to have been confusing, because I avoid restating what has already been said and I don't always make it clear who above I agreed with the most). I do think that given what he was given, Dean got what he needed out of what this episode could offer -but- the writers structured the episode that way on purpose, so just because the episode happened in such a way that it makes sense it turned out like that, they still chose to avoid the issue. Again. Yes what happened fit with the time frame allowed, yes it was in character for Dean. But why couldn't the show let Sam (or anyone) carry his torch just this once, just for a single line even? I just hope that we don't go straight back to weak suicidal Dean who needs saving from his self destructive plans to save the world in the very next episode. To me this episode showed anything but that. I know some people see the whole one last family dinner thing as possibly a final wish before thinking he has to go in the box. But ~I'm good with who I am - and yes things in the past were shitty but they also count among the things that led me here so I can't completely disavow them~ is a pretty damn good space to be in. I hope people can see his plan to stop Michael as just that, because they need to stop Michael. And no, accepting that it is how it is and moving on because you have a life you're happy with in the now, does not equate to forgiving John. like at all. and I'm glad they never had him say as much. I really liked how Jensen played those scenes up for interpretation. I would take any interviews suggesting they could get JDM back yet again with a mountain of salt lol, (remember they even kept saying that about Mark Sheppard when he left so). But it also wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to re-hash bits of the ending of season 2 at some point and bring him back for a hot sec to help the boys kill the final big bad, so I guess we will see if they ever touch this again. & I'm sorry but the Misha quote in the DVDs thread about not repeating storylines, followed directly by the intention to bring back 4.01 Castiel and the s05 fight is just hilarious to me.
  10. PinkChicken

    S14 E13: Lebanon - Episode 300

    I wish I could like a comment more than once
  11. PinkChicken

    S14 E13: Lebanon - Episode 300

    I really like your take on why it was 2003 John, (edit: 😮 but that would mean Michael in 14.10 was right about that) because I was over here thinking it was super weird that he'd subconsciously pick a time right after like the worst night of his life, and when I would have assumed John was extra surly and high strung from worrying about Sam. -and being annoyed at that fact; because it being 2003 John right after their fight is the most logical in-universe reason Sam got more of an apology conversation with him.
  12. At this point, if it were for an epic role in a movie or something else that I'd enjoy watching id be okay with Jensen taking some time off or finishing the series altogether. The other half of me wants the series to last long enough so that the true finale isn't left in this teams hands. They did say they wanted a younger batman, but then half the suggestions I see floating around are all mid-high thirties anyway, and Jensen has aged very well hahaha Earlier this year, and any other time I would 100% agree with @SueB that I don't see any scenario where they continue spn with only one J. The two year thing is reassurring, but at this point I think if Jensen wanted to swing it he could probably swing it & it would just result in bad Dean writing for the sake of reduced filming time /disjointed writing if they film his parts of episodes off schedule. Aside from the fact that the Js probably go into those meetings after having talked with each other to be on the same page anyway, tptb have to know that even just an easily reversible extended absence from Jensen would probably affect ratings and hurt their chances of getting renewed long enough to have him back the following year. And yet, they seem uninterested or incapable of consistently giving him good material with Dean, so I wouldn't put it past them at all. At this point "the brothers are the heart of this show" etc etc, I don't trust them at all. Its become as redundant as "back to basics" and literally any other promise they make when they're giving fluffy non-spoilers. They have not demonstrated that they agree with the sentiment at all (constrained by shooting times I know), but I put any points theyve earned this season solidly on Jared and Jensen's acting alone. The suggestion that they might be angling to fade out the brothers for a "spin off" cast within the show rather than starting a whole new show is going to haunt me now (thanks @ahrtee lol). Because they were so invested in a spin off &/or how they've been changing the tone of the show, it fits with everything they have said about reducing schedules & the fact that they have given AU-kaia so much attention this season when they really didn't have to. People have been saying it for years but I really don't want to see them drive the show into the ground like that. lol I was almost genuinely worrying if they were gonna do something dumb with Jack just because of the pun, the fact that they made it a title is actually kinda reassurring. They are often obvious with the titles but I don't think they'd be that obvious if they were actually gonna do it. On the other hand, Jack seems to be the only one Dean would be able to trust to agree with the stakes and actually help put Dean in the box. I don't want to see Dean putting something like that on a character they've spent 2 seasons framing as his "son" but its pretty obvious Jack is going to have a hard part to play somewhere. & he is the only person who seems to agree with Dean that killing Michael should be a priority.
  13. PinkChicken

    S14 E13: Lebanon - Episode 300

    I honestly didn't even know who he was until I saw people commenting on that, which is probably the only reason I didn't care as much. People have said otherwise, but for me this episode didn't do a very good job of toeing the line between having a bazillion easter eggs and being flippant about things because of the fact that they've been on so long and a ghost is nothing to the Winchesters, while also trying to be more accessible to general audience who may tune in just because of the milestone. This isn't an episode I would tell people to watch if I was trying to get them interested in the series. It wouldn't even make the shortlist I'm sorry all that happened to you. And i 100% agree. That little speech by Dean meant more to me than anything John could have ever said ever. Closure should be about Dean, not about John. Obviously you can't separate John from the situation, but he doesn't get a say in it, and tbh I don't trust tptb to not to turn any kind of John apology into retconned narrative forgiveness and then hold it against Dean if he didn't accept it straight away, even with no time or effort to show any true effort or change. So this is more realistic to me. (The spoiler button is at the top of the text box once you start a reply, next to the font buttons & the standalone quote button). It isn't where I expected them to go with it, but its better than nothing, and they really didn't have enough time to do it properly. Fact is this isn't something that would be fixed by punching John in the face or by any number of apologies anyway. ts far too late, so it only matters to me if it matters to Dean that John acknowledge it. I really don't trust them to even approach this topic properly when it comes to Dean & John so i'm almost grateful they didn't really touch it. Absolutely it would be nice, Dean deserves acknowledgement and an apology, but I did like that they both got the 'I'm proud of you's and I"I love you"s (even if the "I'm proud of you" comes from the wrong place and imo John doesn't get to claim responsibility for all of who Dean has become anyway). Can I put myself squarely in the middle on the pawn shop guy thing? Objectively and "big picture" within the show, I do agree with you Juppschmitz, but I didn't have a special peev with this specific episode because for me based on his actions the pawn shop guy is in the same vague category as witches. A category which is even more muddy now that they routinely practice their own spellwork, have let a number of witches go, and even added good witches as hunters themselves (who also have no problem killing bad witches). This is a problem that has a much bigger scope in themes and overall consistency of when and who the brothers bother defending in way more episodes than just this one, so it didn't stand out to me in specifically this one. So much those bolded bits. The way Dean played all of those scenes was absolutely perfect, partially because there are so many ways I can see people interpreting it (but I gotta say I agree with you). I am so grateful that they didn't have Dean spout any of the "best you could" lines. The "I have a family" was partly reassuring & happy because he is happy with what he has, but also partly an accusation. Like did John honestly think raising kids hunting was going to end up anywhere else, and also I'm going to pretend the following are implied. "this is my family, and you're not usually part of it" / "we always were a family but you kept messing it up". I 100% don't think Johns apology in Season 2 counts as far as Dean goes, and I never did. That was one apology which was more about John saying what he needed to say before he died, than actually caring about Dean, as evidenced by how he immediately went and did exactly the same thing yet again - something worse even. I understand Sam fans and how the scene with young-John and Sam also never really counted because it wasn't the 'right' John and he wasn't really present or understanding of the conversation. Neither of those scenes really provided closure, and so to me both of them came into this episode on equal footing in regards to the "fairness" of plot. Any more thoughts probably belong in a bitter thread They seem to really be putting a lot of weight on the effectiveness of Deans mental cool-room door. He manages to not get blasted away by the sigil & That point about Zachariah is huge. Castiel didn't see Gadreel when he was riding shotgun in Sam, so its not without precedent, but Gadreel's fear of being discovered, and the implied urgency or danger there was a huge driver of his whole story. Not to mention how they never showed if/how they checked Dean enough to believe that Michael left/was actually under control, so therefore we don't know what should be the first sign if/when he gets control back.
  14. PinkChicken

    S14 E13: Lebanon - Episode 300

    I quite liked this episode considering everything they tried to do. Idk I don’t want to say I loved it because apart from being notable for Johns presence it doesn’t break into my other favourites – But I have watched it 3 times already because it made me think too much. Sam did really need that conversation with John, so i'm happy he got it. I'm also happy neither of them tried all that hard to make John feel better about any of his decisions when it came up. Dean’s speech to Sam in the kitchen is everything. “Yeah. I used to think that too. But, uh... I mean look, we’ve been through some tough times. There’s no denying that. And for the longest time I blamed dad. I mean Hell, I blamed mom too, you know? I was angry. But say we could send Dad back knowing everything. Why stop there? Why not send him even further back, and let some other poor sons of bitches save the world? But here’s the problem, who does that make us? Would we be better off? Maybe. But I gotta be honest I don’t know who that Dean Winchester is, and I am good with who I am. I’m good with who you are. Because our lives, they’re ours, and maybe I’m just too damn old to want to change that.” Being a little peeved that John couldn’t acknowledge how he raised Dean in the same way as he did with Sam aside, I do think Jensen and JDM did a very good job of not letting their complicated relationship be forgotten on screen. They're both amazing actors. Regardless of everything else there is still a lot of love there and it’s not surprising they all want to focus on the positives while they can. How John ever thought he was raising Dean to eventually become a functional, peaceful, suburban dad is mind boggling though. Even the time warped Dean kept hunting after John disappeared from 2003. -and thinking about Dean rocking up on Sam’s doorstep 2 years too early when Sam was still too freshly angry from the ultimatum fight to stick with him, even from outside hunting, just makes me sad. I'm wondering if they had more planned for those kids before they scored JDM, and if we will see them again. I loved the sheer number of the little nods to past episodes they managed to squeeze in with props, and dumb little things like the firelighter not working a million times. I also loved their relationship with all the locals, & that they use their real names with them, even given Campbell because of the Winchester serial killers lol. Opinions: Did the Angel banishing not affect Dean because with him and Sam not hunting, the wish did in fact result in Michael never possessing him in the first place, and why did they never mention that when talking about pros and cons of the timeline (imo they didn't revert to the other Sam & Dean in any other way yet, so I think Michael should still have been there and change when Dean changes)? /or/ Would It not affect him if Michael was still there but locked in the Dean-cage anyway i.e. does the angel have to be at the wheel for it to work (the same as I assume wielding any powers or the angel blade would work)?
  15. PinkChicken

    S14 E13: Lebanon - Episode 300

    Sam and Dean look to occult lore for a solution to their latest problem, but instead of a resolution, they find much more than either of them had anticipated.
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