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S2: E4 Tough Titmouse

2 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

You have the characters confused. Kenny was Shaun’s neighbor (played by Chris D’Elia) after Lea moved out.

No I don't.  Kenny pretended (largely) to be Shaun's friend, took his money at the carnival, rejected him when he was embarrassed and now it looks like stole his TV.  What is Shaun's IQ?  160? More?  But he was gulled by Kenny.  That is a frighteningly common occurrence with people with Aspergers.  My son could read at 3 years old.  His inheritance is going into a trust.  

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Did the calendar in the flashback say August 2006?  Or was it August 2008?  If "third time is a charm" would Shaun have been 14 then which makes him 26 now or maybe he went there later?  The two calendars show different years.  I *think* the second one say 2007 and it looks like winter so maybe he was there for quite a while.  As to the overlap with Maddie, she died 13 years prior in 2017 ie. 2004.  Presumably Glassman was taking a working sabbatical or something after her death and the break-up of his marriage.  Maddie never knew Shaun I think.  It was part of the hallucination. 

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53 minutes ago, doctor destiny said:

No I don't.  Kenny pretended (largely) to be Shaun's friend, took his money at the carnival, rejected him when he was embarrassed and now it looks like stole his TV.  What is Shaun's IQ?  160? More?  But he was gulled by Kenny.  That is a frighteningly common occurrence with people with Aspergers.  My son could read at 3 years old.  His inheritance is going into a trust.  

Sorry about that! I thought you were referring back to the son in this week’s episode.

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9 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

No I don't.  Kenny pretended (largely) to be Shaun's friend, took his money at the carnival, rejected him when he was embarrassed and now it looks like stole his TV.  What is Shaun's IQ?  160? More?  But he was gulled by Kenny.  That is a frighteningly common occurrence with people with Aspergers.  My son could read at 3 years old.  His inheritance is going into a trust.  

The TV appears to be safe. You could catch a glimpse of it during the karaoke scenes.

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Man, Richard Schiff hit it out of the ball park! Not gonna lie, I may have ugly cried during one of those scenes with Paige, I mean, Maddie. It made some twisted sense that his brain would try to process all that grief and that guilt in its very vulnerable state, post surgery. And Holly Taylor did an excellent job with the role, whoever mentioned that she matched him well was right on point.

i also loved Shaun’s “I kept your secret... for thirty minutes” 

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Ok, was the foster mom (Brooke Smith/Dr. Hahn) really dying or was she just kicking him out. Her tears seemed to indicate that she was not just moving on from Sean, but it was tough to tell.

And Lea was right about everything she said, but she is aware of Sean's condition and the limitations that result and therefore she really had no right to be surprised...or even angry. Sean has very little experience with being/having a friend, let alone a significant other so what did she think would happen.

Edited by AriAu.
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Well now...this is interesting.
We have discovered where Paige (from The Americans) has been hiding out...in the hospital.
The Americans fans will recall that Paige, the junior KGB agent-in-training, did not join her parents when they escaped back to Russia. 
Rather, she stayed in the US.  Much speculation as to how she could survive.
And now we know...or sort of know.  Pretty nifty crossover, eh?
Next we'll have Philip Jennings (her Americans father) show up in the ER with leg pains from too much line dancing.
And Elizabeth Jennings will pop up with hand problems, having punched out a few more opponents.

Hmmm...maybe I watch too much TV.  

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ok I did NOT expect to get spoilers on another show with three episodes left....

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On 10/20/2018 at 1:20 AM, doctor destiny said:

No unfortunately that's not true.  There is a girl with Aspergers in my home country.  A group of girls at her high school pretended to be her friend.  They made her take off her top, took pictures and posted them online.  When the parents asked her what was the worst part, it was because she thought they were her friends.  It doesn't matter how smart an Aspie is, they can be gulled by ill-intentioned people.  It's a real thing that happens to a lot of autistic people.  So I have to think about putting any assets I might have in a trust for my kids who have very high IQs.  They nailed this one right on the head with that storyline.  Also, Shaun was very lonely at the time and vulnerable.  I hope to god my kids never find themselves in that position.

So true. I was the center of many jokes and pranks, kids pretending to like me to see what I'd do, then turning around and humiliating me. This happened to me many times. As an adult, I have leaned to "read" people better but I can still be gullible. 

 

On 10/20/2018 at 8:00 AM, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I'll spare you guys my next anti-Lea rant (or most of it), but I'm really not digging this "poor Lea" self-pity tour. The show thinks that we want to see Shaun have emotional growth, which is true in theory, but accomplishing it via having one of his only supposed true friends (who is also very aware of his romantic feelings for her) call him an asshole with zero justification beyond "how dare you have negative reactions to my shitty actions" and gaslight him into groveling for her forgiveness (...for what? having a spine and not letting your sexy neighbor use you as a drive-by AirBnB?).....is not the way to go about it.  Somehow this plot is going even more crappily than I imagined. When she said "I thought I had a friend who was sweet and nice and open-minded!" which is code for "I thought I could exploit your autism and social naïveté on a whim without consequence!" FUCK OFF! Just fuck off! I'm so sick of able people treating disabled people like toys and then being shocked when they have actual emotions and don't just forget about everything they did. We're not dogs.

I did get a little bit of satisfaction at Lea's shocked face when Shaun told her that he had rented an apartment for the two of them to share. That's what happens when you choose to manipulate and guilt trip someone who you know doesn't understand social cues for your own advantage and ego, you self absorbed jackass! I wish he would ditch her, but you know she'll flip the switch and become sugary sweet, especially if he offers pays the rent. I predict she'll keep making Shaun "earn her forgiveness" until he's totally subservient and then reward him with taking his virginity in the midseason finale.

Lea picks and chooses when to acknowledge Shaun's autism and I don't think she fully understands it. I hope they show her becoming a bit more educated about it and more conscientious about how she interacts with Shaun. Maybe we can come to like her again, but the way she's going now, not so much. 

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I am so jazzed by the fact that two actors - TWO - with apparent mental disabilities were featured in this episode.  I am not sure of the disability of the first character played by Isaiah Lehtinen, "Marc", but Isaiah has had ten other acting roles. It was clear that "Gabi", played by Brenda Isabel Santiago (apparently in her first TV/movie role) is a  Downs Syndrome patient.

Having worked with special education students, I could see how difficult it is for them and their parents to cope with many issues.  Even when they become adults, their parents may feel the way "Marc"'s mother did - who lost her husband, and who had no relief with dealing with a son who was stronger than she is.

It seems like this episode is setting the stage for a number of emotional plot arcs.   We are learning about the personal lives of the main characters, and it seems like that is going to be the direction that the scriptwriters and David Shore are taking here.  Ok, let's see it!!

Edited by Brown12051.
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3 hours ago, Brown12051 said:

 It was clear that "Gabi", played by Brenda Isabel Santiago (apparently in her first TV/movie role) is a  Downs Syndrome patient.

 

I think she may have Down Syndrome but was reported to have had a serious brain injury in the first series episode "Pain".  I really enjoy their stepping up here.  When Melendez first sees Mac he notices and reacts immediately but that is only to calibrate how he should communicate with him the most effectively.  He thinks of him as a human being who needs help.  Period.  I think they did a brilliant job in this episode.  I'd love to see more people with disabilities represented.  

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On 10/26/2018 at 3:03 AM, TurtlePower said:

 

Lea picks and chooses when to acknowledge Shaun's autism and I don't think she fully understands it. I hope they show her becoming a bit more educated about it and more conscientious about how she interacts with Shaun. Maybe we can come to like her again, but the way she's going now, not so much. 

She's human.  I don't think she does understand but like in the episode "Apple" she is coming to understand better.  It's a process.  The dramatic point of the relationship is I think the miscommunication that goes on between neurotypicals and autistics.  I think the writers are very ably showing it goes both ways.  Lea's failure to understand Shaun is on a par with his misunderstanding of her situation.  I think they both love each other but need to work out how to communicate with each other first.  It wouldn't occur to Lea that Shaun wouldn't tell her about dealing with Dr Glassman's illness.  She's made the same unconscious mistake that Shaun made not wondering what happened to Shaun in San Jose.  Ostensibly he seems unchanged but he's been through a lot.  If she had known she would have behaved very differently.  Likewise with Shaun.  I'm just not as negative about this.  She doesn't treat him like a pet.  She is his friend.  Give it time.

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I'm neurotypical and I would hate being treated the way Lea treats Shaun. I don't think it's just about neurotypicals vs people with autism not understanding each other.

I thought the show was too heavily tilted towards the pro-institutionalization point of view, with the oversimplified idea that people with disabilities need doctors, as though that was a substitute for families. The problem is way more complex thhan that, and they totally ignored the financial basis of the conflict. Often people can't get supports they need and are forced into institutions for that reason, when a less restrictive environment would work better and be less dehumanizing. The SCOTUS Olmsted decision made that illegal but it's not well or thoroughly enforced, and people are often forced to choose between bad options as though they are the only ones possible, when the possibilities are only so shitty because of money.

But it's way more feel good to say that mom made a tough decision even though it's for the best, than it is to suggest that it doesn't have to be so tough if we didn't consider disabled people to be discards best pawned off on others and warehoused out of sight.

Edited by possibilities.
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2 hours ago, possibilities said:

 

But it's way more feel good to say that mom made a tough decision even though it's for the best, than it is to suggest that it doesn't have to be so tough if we didn't consider disabled people to be discards best pawned off on others and warehoused out of sight.

 

..which is what happened to Shaun.  And on communication, he's the one actually with the most experience.  He says things, notices things in the episode from Mac's case to Glassman but no one seems to listen to his views or sees his observation.  They are still discounting him as people with disabilities often are (because this time he is a doctor - one of them but not one of them - and not a patient).  Is the failure an inability of Shaun to adapt to the world or the ignorance of neurotypicals in dealing with these issues?  That's also one of the key themes of the show.  I know parents of older kids that have ended up in group homes.  They love their children fiercely but also recognize that they made the right decision for their child based on their personal circumstances.  They did not make the decision remotely likely and decisions were driven by the age of the parent and the size of the child now adult.  Even with respite care and in-house support it is unreasonable to expect older parents to be able to cope.  For sure there are halfway house solutions.  But they sometimes don't work for personal circumstances.

Edited by doctor destiny.
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On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 11:23 PM, Annber03 said:

 

Yeah, everything with Lea is really tough for me to sort out, too, for a lot of the reasons you note. He may not ask her what happened to make her come back, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't get that she's upset, or that he wouldn't show his concern and interest in other ways. Hell, even if he did wonder as to what brought her back, he could've chosen not to ask precisely because he knew she was upset about whatever happened there, and as such, didn't want to add to her sadness. So I hope Lea can keep that in mind, too. 

I dunno. It's a very weird situation in general. The bit with Shaun trying to make things better with their karaoke song was super adorable, though :). 

I just watched this episode tonight. And I'm a mom of two asd kids but still had to let a friend go this week because of having to deal with asd issues. I've been beating myself up over it because I felt I should be more empathetic but the truth is its damn hard. Even for someone really familiar with the disorder. I'll miss my friend but I just couldn't do it any more. 

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edited to move contents to the appropriate thread

Edited by possibilities.
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2 hours ago, Fable said:

@possibilities

I am wondering if you didn't mean to post this in the Carrots thread.  

Yikes! My apologies. I'll move it.

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Something didn't seem right to me when Claire and the blond doc presented the options to the rock climbing girl and her parents. Usually, it's "Plan A can heal you completely but has great risks attached, and Plan B is safer but won't heal you completely." Instead, it was like we can heal you completely or heal you enough that you can't do stupid things anymore, and they went with the later. I mean, why on earth wouldn't anyone choose the option that would heal them most completely?

That said, I think the climber did have issues with risk taking and self-destructive tendencies, but it seemed like that could (and should have been) dealt with. She may have enjoyed the thrill of danger, but she had also been hurt many times and still could not stop going back for more. She was lucky to be on her parents' health insurance; she'd have a much different experience the hospital without it, and at 18 I doubt she'd be considering that.

Also, I don't see the mother saying someday she'd be a wife and mother as projecting her values on her daughter. To me the point was that there are a lot of other experiences that the girl could go on to have that could be meaningful and rewarding to her as she matures, which she couldn't picture at her current age. But to purposely semi-cripple her to make sure she has them? I think she will find other ways to endanger her life and seek thrills, regardless of the type of surgery she has.

I was annoyed that Park jumped to and pushed for institutionalization. Respite care would have been a better first step and offered immediate help to the family, but funding is tight for that kind of stuff.

Loved the Gassman and Maddie story. I figured she was a suicide, didn't know it was an overdose. I hope he gets some closure from this.

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On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 5:54 PM, tennisgurl said:

Why was Reznick rocking the same hairstyle that my pioneer American Girl doll used to have? And her constant psychoanalyzing everyone is getting super annoying. I did kind of laugh at her just going "this is because of your mom" in the middle of that meeting, and everyone just sat there looking awkward before everyone left.  

 

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:31 AM, Beezella said:

Ha Ha Ha! I am inordinately in love with braids of all kinds, and this is the only braided hairstyle I have ever hated.

 

I was waiting for one of the other characters, that she was snotting at, to come back with something like "Oh and by the way, your hair looks stupid!"  When that didn't happen, I was disappointed and even more confused by the hairstyle. 

Edited by Miss Bones. Reason: punctuation
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On 10/15/2018 at 11:48 PM, bros402 said:

What was with Reznick's hair? That was certainly a hairstyle...

SBaba now calls her shithead, I’m sure everyone can figure that out. 

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Right? Last week she's trying to give Shaun relationship advice and this week she's analyzing Claire. It'd be fun if somebody called her out next time she did that and reminded her that she's not a therapist/counselor/whatever.

I really wish they would. She's such a pain in the ass.

Are they going for a Claire/Melendez romance? I feel they have a meaningful conversation in every episode at this point. 

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I looked up Beau Garret's age (Jessica) and it says she was born in late 1982, which means that an Usher-themed Sweet 16 party for a best friend would have been spot-on. But was it actually said that Maddie was Jessica's friend? Because Jessica is an extremely common name for that age group. (Maddie/Madison is not, but what's new in terms of how t.v. writers name their characters.)

I've watched way too many crime shows because I thought that Maddie had gotten picked up by a serial killer or something. One of Paul Bernando's victims had been locked out of her house by her parents for missing curfew, and they picked her up that way. Drug overdose makes more sense.

I really thought that Maddie had died as a little girl and Holly Taylor was supposed to represent what she would have looked like if she had grown up. Learning that Maddie had died at what looks to be about 17 was interesting.

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