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S07.E01: Inmate 4587

16 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver laying low so he could get back to his family as soon as possible was a complicated thing, I am all for him getting back to his family ASAP and as impossibly hard as it was for him not to stick his neck out to help Stanley, I could understand and not hold it against Oliver when that happened.  But it wasn't really who he is. Felicity's visit in part gave him permission to be true to himself even if it came with the risk of being away from his loved ones possibly longer.  It was like Felicity freed him from one of the layers in his prison.  

It was this week's lesson for Oliver since this show is all about Oliver learning lessons.  He thought he could lay low but then he learned that he really couldn't if there is someone who needs help.

I'm just happy it was a new lesson since usually it's the same one the show has him learning again and again (e.g. he can't defeat the bad guy by going it alone).

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6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But That beard has GOT TO GO! He looked too much like a serial killer.

It was really disheartening to watch this episode and realize how much worse the beard is going to get as we get deeper into the season. 

2 hours ago, Kuu-uurija said:

I liked young Will's actor a lot, he was very good at conveying resentment, love, loss and confusion at the same time. He has come a long way. I am sorry to see him go.

I'm confident he'll be back once Oliver's out of prison. But I agree that Jack Moore did a good job of conveying all the conflicting emotions Will was feeling. Also, I really loved that older Will had some of the same mannerisms as young Will, especially in that last scene. David Rappaport did a really good job on the casting.

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So I rewatched the episode. Definitely a little better on second viewing, although I still found myself rolling my eyes at the Rene/Dinah stuff and just wanted to get back to Oliver and Felicity whenever they came on screen.

Anyway, did anyone else notice how cold the Diggle and Felicity scene was? It was so brief (another thing I didn't like) but Diggle seemed so detached and formal and I found it kinda weird and off-putting. Is this to set up whatever happens next week? Are we already supposed to think there's some tension there? IDK. 

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6 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Are we already supposed to think there's some tension there? IDK. 

I took it as tension with what just happened. Like, Diaz attacked them but Argus was the reason why they weren't dead, all to set up an argument next week

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7 hours ago, tv echo said:

I don't think it's the same list of names that Oliver was using in S1. Per Wiki, Oliver's list of names did not include Jason Stent, which was the name crossed of the list by the new GA copycat.

There's a certain logic that Stent was too young to be on the original list from almost 12 years ago but I wouldn't rule it out since we never saw the full list of the list.  Did the public ever know he had a list?  I don't recall that but I'm not certain.  If it wasn't public knowledge, then how would the NGA know to copy that unless they knew about the old list, in which case, wouldn't they be interested in the old names still?  Or is it just a coincidence, like a standard enemies list?

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Or is the new GA adding new names to the original list?

Edited by statsgirl.
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8 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

Oliver's new prison friend's name is Stanley. The surprise that Oliver didn't defend him is because he's a Green Arrow fanboy who didn't think his hero would turn his back on someone who needed help. Consider how crushed he was to think his hero was a coward and there might be no hope/justice. Oliver was an outcast because he put a lot of those people in there. The only ones that decided to pick a fight with him only did it as a group and once reminded of how lethal he is tried to "persuade" him to join them. 

I guess I was upset with Oliver when he didn't defend Stanley (thanks for the name!). It would be easier to accept this choice if Stan would turn out to be somebody else than just a fanboy. 

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14 hours ago, Kuu-uurija said:

I don't trust Oliver's new little friend, at least not yet. He was way too surprised that Oliver didn't defend him - almost like he didn't expect to get beaten up. It would be logical to assume that fraternizing with Oliver would cost him as Oliver was clearly an outcast there. Honestly, it seemed that the guard that woke Oliver up was more sincere than he was. He didn't seem to be purposefully cruel in the end. And he broke up the first fight. I am hoping he will be an ally.

 

13 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

Oliver's new prison friend's name is Stanley. The surprise that Oliver didn't defend him is because he's a Green Arrow fanboy who didn't think his hero would turn his back on someone who needed help. Consider how crushed he was to think his hero was a coward and there might be no hope/justice. Oliver was an outcast because he put a lot of those people in there. The only ones that decided to pick a fight with him only did it as a group and once reminded of how lethal he is tried to "persuade" him to join them. 

I am also suspicious of him. I wonder if weak, wrongly convicted inmate Stanley is going to stick around all season as a new friend to Oliver, and whose name is cleared by Team Arrow - and then at the end of the season, we find out that Stanley's like Keyser Söze (the secret Big Bad).

Edited by tv echo.
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14 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Anyway, did anyone else notice how cold the Diggle and Felicity scene was? It was so brief (another thing I didn't like) but Diggle seemed so detached and formal and I found it kinda weird and off-putting. Is this to set up whatever happens next week? Are we already supposed to think there's some tension there? IDK. 

I did and I found it disconcerting as well. There was no warmth there, not even a hand to the shoulder. Feels like whatever was said could have easily been said by another ARGUS employee. I don't know if that's set up for next week, if it is it's such a weird one because there's really not much to glean from the interaction other than "Huh, David seems stiff." 

It's kinda like what I mentioned in News and Media thread about some people are saying Felicity got found out via the coding she did for the coffeeshop dude. But nobody really made the connection in the show so I don't know if it that was the case or the writers being so bad in writing again.

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I miss Delicity. S1 and 2 Delicity. The relationship that was sacrificed for Laurel, Rene, Dinah. 

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Honestly, I’m so bummed we had no Delicity and only one Felicity/William scene but they managed to force in Rene/Zoe and the same Rene/Dinah conversation like four different times. 🙄

Edited by Angel12d.
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1 hour ago, way2interested said:

I think it's just a coincidence, but that people took Diaz knowing that she was "Erin," only referenced by the other guy, as the direct link. If that was on purpose, it could just be they left it in the open because in the end it didn't matter in the outline, kind of like how they left out Argus saving Felicity. It's not so much incompetence or oversight as much as just streamlining the story to get to the beats (ex: we don't need a link since we've been told Diaz is "intimidating" but here's one left up for interpretation as we get to the more important scene or we don't need a scene of Argus coming in for the rescue because we have Felicity referencing away the plot hole and keeping up the "suspense" for Oliver and the audience is more important/satisfying for the next important scene).

Moving the conversation here in the episode thread ...

I don't think those are comparable situations you mentioned. There's no surprise being spoiled if Diaz had mentioned more of the connection than just referring to Felicity as "Erin" in their confrontation. Unlike if they showed ARGUS coming to the rescue. So either something got chopped in the editing or it's just the writers' willingness to take too many shortcuts and fail in having the audience clearly connect the dots. I get streamlining the storytelling but too many things are seem to be left up to audience interpretation. 

BTW, when did Oliver ask NTA to "carry on" his legacy? I didn't pay a lot of attention to his farewell tour in the finale so I may have missed that part. Rene mentioned that in his conversation with Dinah.

Edited by SmallScreenDiva.
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13 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I don't think those are comparable situations you mentioned. There's no surprise being spoiled if Diaz had mentioned more of the connection than just referring to Felicity as "Erin" in their confrontation. Unlike if they showed ARGUS coming to the rescue. So either something got chopped in the editing or it's just the writers' willingness to take too many shortcuts and fail in having the audience clearly connect the dots. I get streamlining the storytelling but too many things are seem to be left up to audience interpretation. 

I didn't really care either way tbh. I think it's just a nitpic since it doesn't really change anything and not so much a huge oversight or misstep of the writers.

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18 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I didn't really care either way tbh. I think it's just a nitpic since it doesn't really change anything and not so much a huge oversight or misstep of the writers.

No, but it's symptomatic of bad writing. I should be used to this but I was hoping with Beth in charge that some of this shit would be cleaned up. Even just a little. 

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17 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

No, but it's symptomatic of bad writing. I should be used to this but I was hoping with Beth in charge that some of this shit would be cleaned up. Even just a little. 

I kind of disagree, since this has nothing to do with writing and just has to do with reviewer interpretation. And if a nitpic is all that happens when Beth is in charge, that's actually a really good sign XD.

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I finally watched the esp.  

After the season finale, I left Arrow with "I am not sure I am coming back to you".  I stayed away from spoilers and anything to do with Arrow. 

Then I came back to this forum and your reactions on live thread reminded me why I enjoyed this show.     It was the interactions with you guys.  

I liked the esp for the most part.  Not enough Diggle and Felicity (separate and together), too much Dinah, Curtis.  Rene I am not sure about right now, I'll see if he starts to get on my nerves.

 

Fight scenes were great.  I haven't enjoyed a fight like that since Oliver was rescuing Walter, season 1?  Felicity, I always love.  I like the new look, can we keep it?  I ended up really liking William but I think for now he does need to go.  I'm afraid too much of him may result in me not liking the kid.

Olicity, after losing a significant person a few months ago, I cried like a effing baby, for pete's sake, I'm starting to cry just thinking bout the scene. 

This is what I missed the most about this show, it made me feel something again.  I really haven't felt anything for this show since Moira was killed off.  I hope it continues.

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I was thinking about the Felicity/Diaz fight scene, and I realized something -- Diaz never threatens William directly, does he? Felicity has that "I swear to God, if you hurt him" line and Diaz points out Oliver's not there to stop him, but Diaz's focus seems to be on Felicity, on taking Oliver's wife from him. He doesn't say "wife and son" to imply he'll kill William after her. I wonder if that was deliberate and will come up again or if they just wanted the focus to be on Felicity vs. Diaz. 

Or maybe I missed/forgot something. 

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40 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I was thinking about the Felicity/Diaz fight scene, and I realized something -- Diaz never threatens William directly, does he? Felicity has that "I swear to God, if you hurt him" line and Diaz points out Oliver's not there to stop him, but Diaz's focus seems to be on Felicity, on taking Oliver's wife from him. He doesn't say "wife and son" to imply he'll kill William after her. I wonder if that was deliberate and will come up again or if they just wanted the focus to be on Felicity vs. Diaz. 

Or maybe I missed/forgot something. 

I noticed that, too. And when the guy in prison delivers the message to Oliver he says "Diaz found Felicity. Your wife is dead" not "Diaz found Felicity and William. Your family is dead." I feel like it almost has to be deliberate since it happens more than once but I'm not sure to what end because Diaz was clearly willing to murder William in Ties That Bind.

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Its my headcannon that the rest of the heroes of the Arrowverse totally dont trust the newbies now, and every time everyone gets together, they get basically ignored, or held at arms length. Except for Mick, who just walks up to them, snarls "I hate snitches" and walks away. I mean, if they cant be trusted by their own leader, who would trust them? 

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10 hours ago, tv echo said:

 

I am also suspicious of him. I wonder if weak, wrongly convicted inmate Stanley is going to stick around all season as a new friend to Oliver, and whose name is cleared by Team Arrow - and then at the end of the season, we find out that Stanley's like Keyser Söze (the secret Big Bad).

I am not getting a suspicious vibe myself.  I think Stanley is what he seems, someone on Oliver's side and who can be a comic foil.  I think the guards are also just plain garden variety assholes.  There could be redemption or corruption of one or both but I don't think there are currently any secret agendas.  

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The guards are a$$holes but that is reality in jail.  I have had clients sent to the hospital b/c they were beaten so bad and then you watch the surveillance and no one is doing a thing to stop it.  Unfortunately there is alot of reality in those scenes.

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My father worked in a prison for 20 years. It would be nice if they all weren’t portrayed as overgrown violent bullies. Does the description match some? Absolutely but there are good guys there too. 

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On 10/16/2018 at 5:27 PM, Chaser said:

Arrow doesn’t get hung up on details or logic or continuity...

That is why it fails Star City.

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On 10/15/2018 at 6:27 PM, JJ928 said:

How did marble mouth get away from ARGUS?

This is the only thing that truly bothered me, alongside the fact that Diaz is still a thing. Felicity roughed him up pretty good before he got the upper hand and appeared to have his back to the door so, assuming he did a shit ton more monologuing until they showed up to save her, did he escape through a window? Did they not cover all potential exit points?....How can the infamously mighty ARGUS be so incompetent? I get that they probably want some kind of showdown with Ollie/the team finally taking him down, and I usually like Kirk Acevedo's work, but Diaz sucks because his motivations only stem from being butt hurt as a child over something stupid that I can't even remember and he just needs to go. I would have been perfectly fine with a tiny bit of exposition from Felicity telling Oliver how Diaz was taken out in a hail of bullets, no scene required.

Surprisingly enough, I wasn't even bothered by the Rene/Dinah scenes for the most part, almost to the point of enjoying them, particularly Rene with the kids in the boxing gym. In hindsight, it almost had a bit of a Rocky vibe, as far as the setting goes. Curtis was still cringe-worthy; too bad really, I kind of liked him, initially. There were a few things I could nit pick about, such as the prison guard behavior in certain cases, but overall I thought it was a really solid episode. The end reveal with Roy wasn't a real shock to me because I had seen Colton tweet something about his costume, but the scene still gave me goosebumps. Something about it felt fresh and exciting, like the old days of seasons 1&2. I'm looking forward to more, hopefully including the quick demise of Diaz.

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6 hours ago, Chaser said:

My father worked in a prison for 20 years. It would be nice if they all weren’t portrayed as overgrown violent bullies. Does the description match some? Absolutely but there are good guys there too. 

Just to clarify, I only meant the guards in the episode were garden variety assholes, no intent to vilify an entire group.    

2 hours ago, Daltrey said:

Surprisingly enough, I wasn't even bothered by the Rene/Dinah scenes for the most part, almost to the point of enjoying them, particularly Rene with the kids in the boxing gym. In hindsight, it almost had a bit of a Rocky vibe, as far as the setting goes.

I can't say I wasn't bothered or that I came close to enjoying them - there's too much history right now, but I hate to say it but I found Rene less annoying than Dinah.  I LIKE hating Rene.  There is righteous indignation involved.  He earned all of my hate with every word that came out of his mouth and every self-righteous look he gave in season 6 (and plenty in season 5).  But he was different in this episode. 

I still had my knee-jerk reaction of hating the sight of him (well justified) and Dinah smoldered and smugged through most of her scenes, but if I'm being honest, Rene wasn't really doing anything to annoy me apart from living free without consequences. (Which is still a big thing)

One of the reviews mentioned he had lost his smugness and I think they hit it on the head.  Not only did the writing strip him of the attitude and the entitlement but RG changed how he brought the character to life.  Rene before always seemed spurred on by a sense of injustice, his vibe screamed "I've been treated unfairly" kind of a mix of self-pity and anger and of course that self-righteous I know best thing.  

I'm not ready to forgive but the change in the character is kind of huge, something I only could see once I stepped back from my automatic hate of him.  He might as well be a totally different character because how this Rene reacts to stuff is not at all like the one we have known the last two years.   Like when Dinah said she'd arrest him if he put the mask on again.  NTA Rene would have been pissed and self-righteous.  This Rene was surprised, confused and a little hurt.  They must have sent some major notes to RG about his character.  

I'll be really curious if this was a fluke or if they have basically rebooted his character's mannerisms and attitude.  

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50 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I LIKE hating Rene.

This genuinely made me laugh out loud because I totally get it! Of the three, I always hated Rene the most, thanks to everything you mention. He was the absolute worst! Dinah could be annoying, particularly when they divided the teams and she automatically got lumped in with Rene and Curtis but my biggest issues with her were that the acting chops weren't quite there and also because she took Laurel's place; I liked Katie Cassidy and I know she worked hard physically to prep for the Canary role and for whatever reason they took it away from her before she really had a chance to own it. I was looking forward to her in full blown Canary mode and I don't think they gave her the story to really get there before killing her off and Dinah's story just wasn't as interesting; I don't think it carried near the background weight that Laurel's did. Curtis I enjoyed when he was first introduced but he became a super whiny crybaby as a vigilante and his civilian personality has become a one note annoyance. All that said, I'll clarify that while they didn't bother me, I"m not looking forward to great gobs of them on screen either; small doses, please.

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@Chaser I can only speak from my own experience but your 100% right all guards are not like that and the good ones should not be lumped in with the bad ones.  If I offended you I  do apologize that was not my intent.

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Thanks to claireice on youtube...

Olicity 7.01 - Part 5 Parallel Fight Scene

Olicity 7.01 - Part 6 Olicity's Reunion Talk in Jail

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21 hours ago, Daltrey said:

This is the only thing that truly bothered me, alongside the fact that Diaz is still a thing. Felicity roughed him up pretty good before he got the upper hand and appeared to have his back to the door so, assuming he did a shit ton more monologuing until they showed up to save her, did he escape through a window?

Probably the same way he survived being blown off a roof by Black Siren after being almost killed by Oliver. Diaz survives through plot contrivance until they're finished with him.

18 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

One of the reviews mentioned he had lost his smugness and I think they hit it on the head.  Not only did the writing strip him of the attitude and the entitlement but RG changed how he brought the character to life.  Rene before always seemed spurred on by a sense of injustice, his vibe screamed "I've been treated unfairly" kind of a mix of self-pity and anger and of course that self-righteous I know best thing.  

I'm not ready to forgive but the change in the character is kind of huge, something I only could see once I stepped back from my automatic hate of him.  He might as well be a totally different character because how this Rene reacts to stuff is not at all like the one we have known the last two years.   Like when Dinah said she'd arrest him if he put the mask on again.  NTA Rene would have been pissed and self-righteous.  This Rene was surprised, confused and a little hurt.  They must have sent some major notes to RG about his character.  

I'll be really curious if this was a fluke or if they have basically rebooted his character's mannerisms and attitude.  

It's interesting that they are positioning Dinah in the anti-vigilante position that Quentin occupied for the first seasons of the show, and they've giving Rene the pro-vigilante "we have to save this city" that Felicity first said to Quentin at the end of s1 and various other characters picked it up later.  It's an interesting way to try to keep the pro/con tension without making one character a black hat like Samanda Watson.

It's harder with Dinah, of course, because she was a vigilante herself so I'm moderately interested in how long Beth keeps it up and how successful it is.  But she can cut out the Dinah/Rene debates right now, I get it.

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More of my fave scenes from this episode (courtesy of claireice on youtube)...

Olicity 7.01 - Part 3 "No, you definitely don't get it."

Olicity 7.01 - Part 7 Felicity's Talk with William + Oliver Not Keeping His Head Down

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Why am I still watching this silly, silly show.

Every comment on this season from now on will have a OMG Laurel is still here WTF subtext

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So if Future William is the Green Arrow of 2038, does this mean that he's now fighting against ARGUS, which has become a totalitarian organization that has banned religion and metas (and in fact has as its stated day job hunting said metas into extinction), according to Legends of Tomorrow?

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11 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

So if Future William is the Green Arrow of 2038, does this mean that he's now fighting against ARGUS, which has become a totalitarian organization that has banned religion and metas (and in fact has as its stated day job hunting said metas into extinction), according to Legends of Tomorrow?

According to Beth the flashforwards take place in 2040 and the LoT future has no bearing on these flashforwards, so I'm guessing they are going in a different direction with the Argus stuff, but we'll see. 

I don't think that William is or even will be the GA in the future imo, from at least from what we've seen of him so far.

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I can see him as a future Overwatch but someone who spent a billion dollars trying to create some new tech wouldn't go back to fight in the past without some major devices.

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Forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere . . . does "4587" come from anywhere? Like, somebody on the show has a birthdate of April 5, 1987?

Edited by Lantern7.
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Thanks, @tv echo! I was also thinking “Fourth of May,” but it turned out to be a deeper cut.

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6 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Thanks, @tv echo! I was also thinking “Fourth of May,” but it turned out to be a deeper cut.

It also was the code that future Oliver knew Felicity had used to secure some warehouse full of gadgets in the Legends episode set in Star City in 2046

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And it was also the code to open the panel to the loading dock in the "Chatty Cathy" scene in 406.

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