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S04.E10: Winner

2 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

On Breaking Bad, Saul complains about his two ex-wives. Kim probably isn't one of them. Of course, maybe Saul never married and is just haunted by Kim, his best relationship lost. 

At this point, the easiest way for them to paint Saul out of the verbal corner/claim of two ex-wives would be to have him—in front of Kim—mention an ex-wife next season to a client (perhaps to express empathy) and then later have Kim  say to him that she didn't know he was ever married, to which he will reply he wasn't. It would contribute to her realization that he is pretty much always running a scam, while also explaining away the BrBa two-ex-wives story.

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On 10/11/2018 at 2:24 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I wonder if Howard hadn't been able to get into a "good" law school because of low LSATs or undergraduate grades and went Jimmy's route, would his father have hired him?  I know he did not have a record so it isn't exactly the same, and I'm not arguing one way or the other, just wondering.  

Eh, Howard would have been a legacy wherever his dad went. I'm sure he went somewhere "good."

Or...

I'm completely ignorant on law school admittance policies. Do legacies even exist in that universe? Bannon???

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5 hours ago, carrps said:

Eh, Howard would have been a legacy wherever his dad went. I'm sure he went somewhere "good."

Well, we never see Howard drinking booze.  So, not Yale.  

Edited by PeterPirate.
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34 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, we never see Howard drinking booze.  So, not Yale.  

:-)

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17 hours ago, carrps said:

Eh, Howard would have been a legacy wherever his dad went. I'm sure he went somewhere "good."

Or...

I'm completely ignorant on law school admittance policies. Do legacies even exist in that universe? Bannon???

I'm not sure Howard's dad went to an elite school.  Chuck said that Howard's Dad was working in a 2 room office when Chuck joined the firm.  

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3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Howard's dad went to an elite school.  Chuck said that Howard's Dad was working in a 2 room office when Chuck joined the firm.  

That's right - Chuck claimed his joining them was the key to their success (which may well have been - but it makes me wonder why Chuck wouldn't have gone to a larger, already prestigious, firm - but then (my mind is twisty this morning) we never did get a thorough background on Chuck.

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9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

That's right - Chuck claimed his joining them was the key to their success (which may well have been - but it makes me wonder why Chuck wouldn't have gone to a larger, already prestigious, firm - but then (my mind is twisty this morning) we never did get a thorough background on Chuck.

Good point, why did he join a small firm in New Mexico when he had been in I think two prestigious-sounding clerkships per Howard's reading of his obit?  What drew him there? 

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12 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Good point, why did he join a small firm in New Mexico when he had been in I think two prestigious-sounding clerkships per Howard's reading of his obit?  What drew him there? 

Maybe Chuck chose a smaller firm so he would be sure to keep the top dog position, in spite of not having a family tree that went back to the Mayflower or billions in a trust fund.

Edited by shapeshifter.
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1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe Chuck chose a smaller firm so he would be sure to keep the top dog position, in spite of not having a family tree that went back to the Mayflower or billions in a trust fund.

Ah, yes, big fish in a small pond. 

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Chuck's second clerkship was for the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, which covers several states including New Mexico.  I imagine the writers included that detail in the obit to explain why he went west.   

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9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Howard's dad went to an elite school.  Chuck said that Howard's Dad was working in a 2 room office when Chuck joined the firm.  

Thanks! I only watch most episodes once so a lot of the details float off into the ether.

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On 10/9/2018 at 11:03 AM, ShadowFacts said:

By the end of the episode I was thinking to myself, Chuck was right about every penny he said Jimmy stole from the store.  And yet he didn't give up on Jimmy for many years.  I see Chuck in a different light now.  That's really good writing. 

I thought Chuck was right almost from the beginning. There was a little bit of slight-of-hand at first, showing us a sympathetic Jimmy and overbearing Chuck, but it's sheer presence made me suspicious. Then the more we saw Jimmy repeatedly fail due to his own urges, the more clear it became that Chuck was right. And now with this episode, we see proof that Chuck actually was proud of Jimmy at one point, and supportive of him. And Jimmy has been the guy who blames Chuck (or anyone else, really) when things don't go exactly the way he wants. Jimmy was a millennial before we knew what millennials were.

On 10/9/2018 at 11:40 AM, Bannon said:

Again, what you propose is contrary to available evidence with regard to human behavior, and if we don't have evidence of Jimmy running cons while in the mail room, then we don't have evidence. People's behavior is not predetermined, and there are many examples of habitual rule breakers, worse than Jimmy, who decide to stop doing so. What evidence we have indicates that Jimmy, while in the mail room, laboring for delayed gratification, did not run cons. This is compelling evidence that with the right incentive structure in place, Jimmy will follow rules.

I don't think we see enough of Jimmy during those seven years to draw this conclusion. One thing we do see is him running an award show betting pool. Baby steps. 

On 10/9/2018 at 1:16 PM, qtpye said:

A mature person would just speak like an adult to the partners about how it was not a good fit and worked something out but Jimmy always has to go ass clown.

I think that's because Jimmy *is* ass clown. No matter how hard he has tried, at various times, to be something else. He's smart, clever may be a better term, good with people, and ... he needs the thrill and achievement of a successful con or he isn't happy.

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1 hour ago, Ottis said:

I think that's because Jimmy *is* ass clown. No matter how hard he has tried, at various times, to be something else. He's smart, clever may be a better term, good with people, and ... he needs the thrill and achievement of a successful con or he isn't happy.

I assume that Vince Gilligan characters are fictional because they could not exist IRL. For instance, Jimmy couldn't be a smart, clever, intuitive, observant, etc. as he is and yet still be a con artist. Am I wrong?

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1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I assume that Vince Gilligan characters are fictional because they could not exist IRL. For instance, Jimmy couldn't be a smart, clever, intuitive, observant, etc. as he is and yet still be a con artist. Am I wrong?

I am pretty sure a con artist is all those things, or he would lack the ability to successfully run a con. 

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13 hours ago, Ottis said:

I think that's because Jimmy *is* ass clown. No matter how hard he has tried, at various times, to be something else. He's smart, clever may be a better term, good with people, and ... he needs the thrill and achievement of a successful con or he isn't happy.

I think both Jimmy and Kim have a sort of "addiction" to the thrill of con artistry.  Kim is more of a recreational user, but she keeps getting drawn back to it, and it could bring her down.  Jimmy is a hardcore addict.  It is a way of life for him.  He was either in recovery, or maybe more of a "dry drunk" during his mail room days, but he looks hopelessly addicted to it now.  

Neither of them need to do it to make a living.  Kim is a highly successful partner in large law firm.  Jimmy showed he could make a more or less honest living in elder law, and he could clearly earn a good living in sales or marketing.   But, both of them love scamming.  

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12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I assume that Vince Gilligan characters are fictional because they could not exist IRL. For instance, Jimmy couldn't be a smart, clever, intuitive, observant, etc. as he is and yet still be a con artist. Am I wrong?

I don't understand the question. As Clanstarling posted, I think all of those traits can help you be a better con artist. The key is in how you choose to use those skills. Jimmy seems unable to fly the straight and narrow without finding diversions and then outright scams. He's addicted to it. 

When I was in high school, there were two of us on the football team who were in the National Honor Society, me and this OL named Greg. Greg got in trouble outside of school, and yet did well enough in school to be in NHS. I was a nerd and didn't get into trouble (the bigger miracle was that i was on the football team). So the two of us used to say that Greg used his powers for evil, while I used mine for good. That's Jimmy. (BTW, I was later kicked out of NHS when I struggled with a foreign language class and got a C, so screw you, NHS!).

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1 hour ago, Ottis said:

I don't understand the question. As Clanstarling posted, I think all of those traits can help you be a better con artist. The key is in how you choose to use those skills. Jimmy seems unable to fly the straight and narrow without finding diversions and then outright scams. He's addicted to it. 

When I was in high school, there were two of us on the football team who were in the National Honor Society, me and this OL named Greg. Greg got in trouble outside of school, and yet did well enough in school to be in NHS. I was a nerd and didn't get into trouble (the bigger miracle was that i was on the football team). So the two of us used to say that Greg used his powers for evil, while I used mine for good. That's Jimmy. (BTW, I was later kicked out of NHS when I struggled with a foreign language class and got a C, so screw you, NHS!).

 

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think both Jimmy and Kim have a sort of "addiction" to the thrill of con artistry.  Kim is more of a recreational user, but she keeps getting drawn back to it, and it could bring her down.  Jimmy is a hardcore addict.  It is a way of life for him.  He was either in recovery, or maybe more of a "dry drunk" during his mail room days, but he looks hopelessly addicted to it now.  

Neither of them need to do it to make a living.  Kim is a highly successful partner in large law firm.  Jimmy showed he could make a more or less honest living in elder law, and he could clearly earn a good living in sales or marketing.   But, both of them love scamming.  

Yes, the thing is that Jimmy had the smarts, talent, and ability to walk the straight and narrow path to success and chooses not to. When he cornered that poor scholarship applicant girl in the parking lot he was making a big stink about how "THEY WOULD NEVER LET SOMEONE LIKE HIM INTO THEIR HALLOWED HALLS" was self-aggrandizing victim bullshit. Jimmy could have worked his way to partner with Davis & Main or had a respectable Elder law business. He could have also been a really good copier salesman while his license was suspended and it would probably have been much more interesting than the cell phone store job that he ended up taking. No, not only did he turn down the copy salesman job but he actually robbed the place. Some part of Jimmy believes that people that follow the rules are chumps and it takes a lot more smarts to run a successful con than doing the honest thing.

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28 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

Yes, the thing is that Jimmy had the smarts, talent, and ability to walk the straight and narrow path to success and chooses not to. When he cornered that poor scholarship applicant girl in the parking lot he was making a big stink about how "THEY WOULD NEVER LET SOMEONE LIKE HIM INTO THEIR HALLOWED HALLS" was self-aggrandizing victim bullshit. Jimmy could have worked his way to partner with Davis & Main or had a respectable Elder law business. He could have also been a really good copier salesman while his license was suspended and it would probably have been much more interesting than the cell phone store job that he ended up taking. No, not only did he turn down the copy salesman job but he actually robbed the place. Some part of Jimmy believes that people that follow the rules are chumps and it takes a lot more smarts to run a successful con than doing the honest thing.

Yes.  People often ask, "When does Jimmy become Saul Goodman."  Well, IMO, while it is an ongoing process, he first started to become Saul when the grifter gave him the wolves and sheep speech and he decided he would be a wolf, and stole from his father's cash register.  

Chuck and Kim both tried to pull him out of it, with only temporary success, but he always goes back to being the wolf, the grifter who cons other people, rather than the one who gets conned.  He doesn't seem to grasp that you can be an honest person, who isn't a sap that every grifter in town knows is an easy mark.  

I think that was Chuck's reaction to his father being gullible and being conned by Jimmy and others, out of his business.  He decided he would follow the rules, but would be nobody's fool, especially Jimmy's, and was always, rightfully, suspicious of him.  

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1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes.  People often ask, "When does Jimmy become Saul Goodman."  Well, IMO, while it is an ongoing process, he first started to become Saul when the grifter gave him the wolves and sheep speech and he decided he would be a wolf, and stole from his father's cash register.  

Chuck and Kim both tried to pull him out of it, with only temporary success, but he always goes back to being the wolf, the grifter who cons other people, rather than the one who gets conned.  He doesn't seem to grasp that you can be an honest person, who isn't a sap that every grifter in town knows is an easy mark.  

I think that was Chuck's reaction to his father being gullible and being conned by Jimmy and others, out of his business.  He decided he would follow the rules, but would be nobody's fool, especially Jimmy's, and was always, rightfully, suspicious of him.  

What I love about Gilligan is that it was such a transformation when Walter became Heisenberg, with the pork pie hat and the glasses, that we were almost expecting the same thing with Jimmy becoming Saul. Instead, we get an almost through away line about filling out some paperwork for a DBA. Jimmy has always been Saul and now he proudly wears it as his brand. 

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Do we know when exactly in time Saul & Chuck's mother died? I had thought that Chuck's resentment of Saul for being the favorite son (despite Chuck having done so much better in life) was the center of his relationship to Saul, and he was bitter enough about it even to conceal from Saul that their mom's last words had been to ask for him. But I also thought that happened during the period when Saul was working in the mail room, which would have pre-dated the karaoke episode.

 

FWIW, I agree that the Slippin' Jimmie's slip & fall scam was all about scamming upscale stores on State Street and Michigan Avenue, especially since the present of ice would mitigate rather than enhance a driver's responsibility in the case of an accident (whereas stores are solely responsible for maintaining ice-free walks in front of their establishments).

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1 minute ago, Dora Suarez said:

Do we know when exactly in time Saul & Chuck's mother died? I had thought that Chuck's resentment of Saul for being the favorite son (despite Chuck having done so much better in life) was the center of his relationship to Saul, and he was bitter enough about it even to conceal from Saul that their mom's last words had been to ask for him. But I also thought that happened during the period when Saul was working in the mail room, which would have pre-dated the karaoke episode.

 

FWIW, I agree that the Slippin' Jimmie's slip & fall scam was all about scamming upscale stores on State Street and Michigan Avenue, especially since the present of ice would mitigate rather than enhance a driver's responsibility in the case of an accident (whereas stores are solely responsible for maintaining ice-free walks in front of their establishments).

The Breaking Bad wikia places Mother McGill's death as "circa 1999", which I believe would have been during Jimmy's mail room days.  

I always thought that Chuck not telling Jimmy about their mother crying out for him was mostly an act of kindness, though with traces of an ulterior motive, to not admit that Mom loved Jimmy best. 

Jimmy would have been racked with guilt, knowing that his Mother was calling his name on her deathbed, while he was out getting a sandwich.   

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Hm, I read McKean's acting the opposite way; I thought he looked guilty rather than compassionate. I think most people would like to know the last thing their parent said before they died was their name, whether they were in the room for it or not, but maybe that's just me. (As a practical matter, nobody can be at somebody's bedside 24/7, and there's no way to know when these things will happen. I don't think I would feel more than a twinge of guilt in a situation like that).

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18 minutes ago, Dora Suarez said:

Hm, I read McKean's acting the opposite way; I thought he looked guilty rather than compassionate. I think most people would like to know the last thing their parent said before they died was their name, whether they were in the room for it or not, but maybe that's just me. (As a practical matter, nobody can be at somebody's bedside 24/7, and there's no way to know when these things will happen. I don't think I would feel more than a twinge of guilt in a situation like that).

I think their was a combination of resentment toward Jimmy for leaving the hospital and because Mom loved him best and compassion, in not wanting Jimmy to be stuck with the guilt.   I think Chuck was probably tempted to blurt out something like, "She was calling JIMMY, JIMMY, JIMMY, while you were off getting a sandwich!, because you were a terrible son!", but held back,  because he didn't want to give Jimmy both the satisfaction and the guilt of knowing that.  

I think Jimmy would have felt way more guilt than satisfaction.  He already knew his Mother loved him, so knowing she called for him wouldn't mean that much in a positive sense.  But, the guilt of not being there probably would have been immense. 

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2 hours ago, Dora Suarez said:

FWIW, I agree that the Slippin' Jimmie's slip & fall scam was all about scamming upscale stores on State Street and Michigan Avenue, especially since the present of ice would mitigate rather than enhance a driver's responsibility in the case of an accident (whereas stores are solely responsible for maintaining ice-free walks in front of their establishments).

I can go along with that.  State Street and Michigan Avenue don't go through Cicero, for one thing.  I can also go along with the thinking that slipping in front of a business is not as "bad" a crime as allowing oneself to be hit by a car, since there is no invasion of private property involved and there is less chance of unintended, sometimes violent, consequences.  It's even less bad if that business is an upscale store like Nordstrom's that is staffed by employees instead of a small business being run by its owners.    

On the other hand, it's more than 5 miles from Cicero to State Street and Michigan Avenue.  In his spiel to the Skateboard Brothers, mentioned Cicero four times and made no mention of Chicago or about heading downtown to perform his scams.  Jimmy only said that State and Michigan were "good", not that they were the only places he went.  I can imagine that Young Jimmy took public transit downtown because that's where the big payoffs were.  I can also imagine that Young Jimmy avoided doing his thing in his hometown to avoid getting in trouble with the locals.  But at the end of the day these suppositions are based on information that is outside of the show.  

But, most importantly, most importantly, all that is irrelevant.  Jimmy told his story to the Skateboard Brothers with the purpose of establishing himself as just as much a criminal as they were, and to get them to stage a phony automobile accident that would induce enough sufficient psychological trauma in the driver to get her to turn him as her attorney.   It doesn't matter if Young Jimmy slipped in front of moving vehicles or stationary buildings, or whether he did these things in Cicero or Chicago.   Whatever he did was, in his own mind, equivalent to throwing oneself in front of an automobile.  

Edited by PeterPirate.
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On 10/9/2018 at 7:35 AM, 100Proof said:

Somehow I can't get with these particular characters and it's because of the names.... 'Nacho'...'Taco'.  All I keep thinking of when I see those characters are bags of Doritos!

 

"Nacho" is short for Ignacio.  And I think you mean "Tuco."  

Edited by wrlord.
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On 10/9/2018 at 8:45 PM, scenario said:

I've worked at several large international companies and ethical behavior is not really important to management. I can't remember how many times I've been ordered to lie to customers or written up for not lying to customers. Being pressured to sell stuff to customers who clearly don't need it is common. A common attitude among managers is that if you're not willing to lie and cheat, you're not really trying. Setting objectives so high that the only way to reach them is to cheat is commonplace. I can't remember how many interviews I've read where someone got killed because of unethical but legal behavior and the people who ran the company really didn't understand what they did wrong. You see unethical behavior in business, religion, government and most of the people who are acting unethically have no concept that they are being unethical. 

From my experience about 25 to 30% of people really have no understanding what ethical behavior is. That's why I tend to give Jimmy some slack. He's only moderately worse than people I've known who were well respected. He just took it one step further. 

There are an awful lot of companies out there who would have no problem with Jimmy as long as he made enough money for them. 

The practice of law is different from the kind of companies you seem to mean. We lawyers are bound by, study, and are tested on a rather strict code of ethics.

On 10/11/2018 at 11:05 AM, SoMuchTV said:

I thoroughly enjoyed Mike's gummy-exit trick but when I thought about it... I don't think I've ever seen a parking facility where you put in the card to exit.  I've seen where you take a card when you go in and then give it to the friendly cashier when you exit so he can tell you what you owe, and I've seen where you pay a flat fee to go in, then push a button to raise the arm when you exit...  Are my parking horizons limited?

Yes. You often have to put in your ticket to exit, and follow it up with your credit card.  However, I don't think the machine would try to take in another ticket while the gate was still open.

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6 hours ago, wrlord said:

"Nacho" is short for Ignacio.  And I think you mean "Tuco."  

 

yeah, lol,  someone else pointed that out. its stuck in my head tho'.

 

6 hours ago, wrlord said:

The practice of law is different from the kind of companies you seem to mean. We lawyers are bound by, study, and are tested on a rather strict code of ethics.

Unfortunately that process has one huge major flaw

Edited by 100Proof.
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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:51 AM, ShadowFacts said:

Ah, yes, big fish in a small pond. 

I can see that. Very Chuckian.

 

On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 8:23 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy showed he could make a more or less honest living in elder law...

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:35 PM, Ottis said:
  On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:16 PM, qtpye said:

A mature person would just speak like an adult to the partners about how it was not a good fit and worked something out but Jimmy always has to go ass clown.

Jimmy showed nothing of the kind. He ran a huge scam that involved turning a sweet old lady's friends against her so that she would be forced to accept a plea deal before she was ready, because he needed the money now, not later. Yes, he fixed it afterward at his own expense, but that's what he always did... break things, realize the unintended consequences, then try to fix it but the damage is already done. Of course, once he accepts his Saulish nature, he no longer cares about what he breaks, but back then he was not showing that he could make a "more or less honest living" in elder law.

The reason he behaved the way he did at D&M was because he needed to be fired (without professional cause), rather than quit, so he wouldn't have to repay the huge signing bonus he had received. Before that had dawned on him, he did try to just quit in a calm, mature way.

Edited by axlmadonna.
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20 minutes ago, axlmadonna said:

Of course, once he accepts his Saulish nature, he no longer cares about what he breaks, but back then he was not showing that he could make a "more or less honest living" in elder law.

He lacks the moral character to earn an honest living doing anything, over the long term.  My point was that he doesn't pull scams because he has no other way to make a living.  He has the skills to make good money as a legitimate lawyer, a salesman, in advertising, etc.   If he didn't, I might have a little more sympathy for him.  But, he cons people because he enjoys conning people   

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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Hey all, I'm trying to catch up with all the posts since the finale. I had eye surgery the next morning and it's been difficult to read.  Anyhow, I look forward to getting everyone's take. I'm about half way through.  

I was wondering if anyone else thinks that maybe....just maybe, when Jimmy was giving that speech and feeling all kinds of emotions, he really felt those sentiments, but, after he got out and saw Kim, he decided that he didn't want her to see him that vulnerable, so, he fakes it being a con? I know, maybe, I'm being too gullible, but, I just feel like Jimmy does feel deep inside, but, something about him doesn't want to seem weak, so he puts on a front.  

Edited by SunnyBeBe.
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1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Hey all, I'm trying to catch up with all the posts since the finale. I had eye surgery the next morning and it's been difficult to read.  Anyhow, I look forward to getting everyone's take. I'm about half way through.  

I was wondering if anyone else thinks that maybe....just maybe, when Jimmy was giving that speech and feeling all kinds of emotions, he really felt those sentiments, but, after he got out and saw Kim, he decided that he didn't want her to see him that vulnerable, so, he fakes it being a con? I know, maybe, I'm being too gullible, but, I just feel like Jimmy does feel deep inside, but, something about him doesn't want to seem weak, so he puts on a front.  

Welcome back @SunnyBeBe. I do think there's an element of that. He had me believing him, and then I didn't know what to do with what he said. But they do say the best lies are based, at least somewhat, in truth. I like the point that he didn't want to seem vulnerable in front of Kim.

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7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was wondering if anyone else thinks that maybe....just maybe, when Jimmy was giving that speech and feeling all kinds of emotions, he really felt those sentiments, but, after he got out and saw Kim, he decided that he didn't want her to see him that vulnerable, so, he fakes it being a con? I know, maybe, I'm being too gullible, but, I just feel like Jimmy does feel deep inside, but, something about him doesn't want to seem weak, so he puts on a front.  

I'm not sure to what degree, if any, Jimmy's sentiments were sincere; however, your last sentence had me drawing an interesting comparison in my mind between Jimmy and Walter White. 

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11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

was wondering if anyone else thinks that maybe....just maybe, when Jimmy was giving that speech and feeling all kinds of emotions, he really felt those sentiments, but, after he got out and saw Kim, he decided that he didn't want her to see him that vulnerable, so, he fakes it being a con? I know, maybe, I'm being too gullible, but, I just feel like Jimmy does feel deep inside, but, something about him doesn't want to seem weak, so he puts on a front.  

On some level it probably is a correct assessment of Jimmy. Earlier, when he is yelling at the shoplifter girl about how people like them will never be accepted into the inner circle of prestige, Jimmy is really angry about it, and I'm pretty sure that anger comes from being unable to express the pain of being emotionally hurt. 

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On 10/15/2018 at 8:48 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Howard's dad went to an elite school.  Chuck said that Howard's Dad was working in a 2 room office when Chuck joined the firm.  

Was Howard's dad's name Squiggy?

On 10/15/2018 at 7:35 PM, Ottis said:

I thought Chuck was right almost from the beginning. There was a little bit of slight-of-hand at first, showing us a sympathetic Jimmy and overbearing Chuck, but it's sheer presence made me suspicious. Then the more we saw Jimmy repeatedly fail due to his own urges, the more clear it became that Chuck was right. And now with this episode, we see proof that Chuck actually was proud of Jimmy at one point, and supportive of him. And Jimmy has been the guy who blames Chuck (or anyone else, really) when things don't go exactly the way he wants. Jimmy was a millennial before we knew what millennials were.

Jimmy has an inferiority complex the size of Texas.  Having Chuck as his brother didn't help that any, but Jimmy would have had that inferiority complex brother or no brother.  Jimmy's and Chuck's parents were pretty much doormats, easily taken advantage of, always willing to go the extra mile, always doing the right thing.  All of those traits Jimmy's parents had are so not Jimmy.

Jimmy seemingly constantly tries to prove that he is as good as everyone else, but no matter what he does he never feels it.  As a result, he constantly self-destructs and then tries to prove himself again.  Rinse. Wash. Repeat.  He has to be doing this on purpose. 

Edited by icemiser69.
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On 10/16/2018 at 5:39 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

I think their was a combination of resentment toward Jimmy for leaving the hospital and because Mom loved him best and compassion, in not wanting Jimmy to be stuck with the guilt.   I think Chuck was probably tempted to blurt out something like, "She was calling JIMMY, JIMMY, JIMMY, while you were off getting a sandwich!, because you were a terrible son!", but held back,  because he didn't want to give Jimmy both the satisfaction and the guilt of knowing that.  

Did their mom really love Jimmy the best, or did their mom give Jimmy more nurturing, love, and attention, because he needed it more than Chuck?

I don't think Jimmy was loved more.  I think Jimmy was/is "damaged" and their mom knew it and felt that he needed more love, nurturing, and attention in an effort to cope with that "damage".  It obviously didn't work, because Jimmy is "damaged".  Jimmy is very much a "lost soul".  The writers have done a piss poor job of showing where it all started for Jimmy.

Chuck became jealous as a result of all of the attention that Jimmy was receiving from their parents at the expense of Chuck.

Edited by icemiser69.
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3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Did their mom really love Jimmy the best, or did their mom give Jimmy more nurturing, love, and attention, because he needed it more than Chuck?

I don't think Jimmy was loved more.  I think Jimmy was/is "damaged" and their mom felt that he needed more love, nurturing, and attention in an effort to cope with that "damage".  It obviously didn't work, because Jimmy is "damaged".  Jimmy is very much a "lost soul".  The writers have done a piss poor job of showing where it all started for Jimmy.

When I say she loved Jimmy best, I really mean from Chuck's perspective.  I think Chuck always believed that their mother favored Jimmy.  I think his comment in his final letter to Jimmy, about how happy she was when she brought Jimmy home and how she lit up when she looked at him, was Chuck finding a way to put a positive spin on that.   As you said, she might have simply given Jimmy more love and attention because he needed more.  

I think Jimmy might have been "damaged" by the coddling.  I also think he willfully chose a darker path, when he was 9 after the Wolves and Sheep speech from the grifter.  The decisions he made and the thefts and cons he pulled from then on  damaged his soul and his character.

I think Chuck's tough love, in the flashback in the jail, when he told Jimmy he needed to commit to getting his act together, and coming to ABQ to work for him, right away, or he'd let him rot in prison, was probably what Jimmy needed all along from his parents.  It led to the part of his life where he pretty much walked the straight and narrow.   

You could argue that Kim became he new enabler, who bails him out of tough spots and always makes excuses for him, like his parents seemed to have done in his earlier days.  

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There are so many different ways to look at and try to explain people.  Churchill once referred to AH as "this monstrous product of former wrongs and shame".  It's hard to state whether Jimmy became Saul because of the way he was treated over the years, or whether that was due to his inherent character.  (Sorry to pull out Godwin's Law there.  Been saving that one for a while.) 

Personally, I've seen all I need to see of the parents.  They couldn't see evil.  Next.  

Chuck, however, I wouldn't mind getting more a little more backstory on.  I wonder if his behavior changed after Jimmy passed the bar, and this caused Rebecca to leave him.  He really was the golden statue with feet of clay.  

Edited by PeterPirate.
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6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Did their mom really love Jimmy the best, or did their mom give Jimmy more nurturing, love, and attention, because he needed it more than Chuck?

I don't think Jimmy was loved more.  I think Jimmy was/is "damaged" and their mom knew it and felt that he needed more love, nurturing, and attention in an effort to cope with that "damage".  It obviously didn't work, because Jimmy is "damaged".  Jimmy is very much a "lost soul".  The writers have done a piss poor job of showing where it all started for Jimmy.

Chuck became jealous as a result of all of the attention that Jimmy was receiving from their parents at the expense of Chuck.

 

My mom was closest to my brother - who needed that attention (and protection). Which I, somehow, always understood and never really felt jealousy. I was the younger child, and yet more capable and less needy. So Chuck's jealousy was very off putting to me, even though I could understand it intellectually.

The cause of "damage" isn't always apparent, and self-esteem issues are rarely (imo) caused by a single event. For me, the one scene where the guy told Jimmy that basically you're a chump or you're the shark (very loosely quoted) was enough for me in regards to how he developed a love for the con.

Edited by Clanstarling.
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1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I was the younger child, and yet more capable and less needy. So Chuck's jealousy was very off putting to me, even though I could understand it intellectually

I too was a younger child. I in turn had 3 children. My experience/observations have been that the older child tends to be naturally jealous, but that preemptive parenting can redirect the jealousy through talks about what to expect, the role of the older sibling, loving filial bonds, etc. An acquaintance who is a much better parent than I told her first born that his new sibling would be his "best friend." In contrast to her seemingly loving household, my older sister treats me and my middle daughter treats her younger sister much like a Chuck treats Jimmy—even though I and my youngest daughter—unlike Jimmy—are more highly educated than our older siblings. So the Chuck-Jimmy relationship seems to me like a just slightly overblown version of typical sibling rivalry.

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On 10/8/2018 at 9:44 PM, Pat Hoolihan said:

I hated the opening. They had limited time to deal with a lot of things, and this was wasted time.

 

On 10/8/2018 at 11:22 PM, 100Proof said:

So when stuff happens that I'm supposed to be remembering some line or two of script from 5 or 6 episodes or even seasons back....hell even back to Breaking Bad... to know whats going on now, then the flipping hell with it, lol

 

On 10/9/2018 at 4:15 AM, MissBluxom said:

 I don't understand how so many people here think it was an excellent episode. 

 

On 10/9/2018 at 8:18 AM, 100Proof said:

 That is, much self referencing. The relating back to characters, incidents and dialog from long past episodes and seasons. 

I finally caught up with this episode, and have to be *that guy* who agrees with all of the above.  I'm not one that sits around and compares screen minutes, but I do have the impression that more time was spent on Werner, Mike, Gus, and Lalo, on a show called Better Call Saul, than on, well, Saul, not to mention that good portion of Jimmy's story wasn't even current, but a flashback.  I think someone said this a couple weeks ago-I wish I were as interested in the drug stuff as the show wants me to be.

Regarding the other quotes above, are we supposed to know Lalo? Is he from BB?  I read through the comments and a lot of people seem to know a lot about him - who he is, what he's going, who he's working for, what his end game is. To me, he's a guy we saw cooking breakfast and telling a long winded story about the stupid bell, and all of a sudden he's a key player when it comes to Mike.  Am I forgetting a previous BCS or BB story arc?

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I think Lalo was mentioned by name ONCE in BB. Some people are making a big deal out of that, for some reason.

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