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S01.E07: Falling

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Posts have been removed. The rule at Previously.TV is to be civil to each other. If you disagree with another poster, it's okay to state it, but it's NOT okay to be rude.

Next step will be warnings and/or suspensions. Let's please continue civil conversation and even disagreement, but without being insulting to others.

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2 hours ago, peach said:

I thought the same, about the music, but then they showed it again in a sort of montage of Richard discovering the truth about Marian being poisoned, to hint at something more.  But they shove a lot of things together quickly in every episode, to make the viewer feel disconcerted, I think.

The entire thing about the rehab center sure didn't seem like it was a place to get BETTER.  I feel sad if that's what the treatment for this problem is really like.

I guess the thing about the nurse and the music, is they probably aren't allowed to have any devices, and they were just borrowing the nurse's personal one.  Maybe someone addicted to cutting would even break one to get something sharp?

Speaking from personal experience, we weren't allowed to have our cell phones except for two 30 min periods in the day, and the device could only be used in one room with someone supervising. I'm assuming the same applies for the iPod, so I wasn't surprised to see her time being limited for using the iPod. Also, I mean, if you're going to just be on your cell phone/iPod, then you aren't really dealing with why you are there. Anything that you can possibly use to hurt yourself, even shoestrings, are called, "sharps." The item doesn't necessarily have to be sharp -- it's a catch all term for anything that can be used to self-harm or for harming others. That's another reason why she wouldn't be allowed to have her iPod.

Edited by PepSinger. Reason: to add more info
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I really don't think Camille killed her roommate. They said the roommate drank poison from the cleaning cart. "Let's get out of here" referred to playing the music and I take that at face value. Off on a tangent, I didn't understand why the rehab center limited the use of the music so tightly. Maybe they considered it avoiding the problem?

I don't think she did either. Plus they made a point to show that bleach or whatever it was prior to the scene where the roommate was dead. Maybe the music itself is not the issue but instead the isolation that earbuds promote in an environment in which the authorities may feel that socializing is therapeutic?

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23 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Can we please, please put a moratorium on calling Camille, or any other woman on that matter, a slut? I beg of the universe.

 

Was Camille having sex with John appropriate? From a legal standpoint, yes, she's in the clear. From a journalistic standpoint, no. However, do I understand why she did it? Yes, which is why I am disappointed instead of angry. I cannot imagine how painful her life has been and sometimes the desire to connect overrides good judgement. I don't need characters I like or care about to make the perfect choice 100% of the time; I just need to understand motivations behind it.

I also work in healthcare, so I, too, was confused as to how Jackie would have any standing whatsoever to ask to see Marian's medical records. Unless Adora signed a release, which there's not a shot in hell she would have done, Jackie would have no way of gaining that information. I'm honestly wondering why she did it; she should've been smart enough to know it would be denied. The only justification I can think of is that if Adora somehow knew about the request, maybe Jackie thought Adora would back off on harming Amma to avoid suspicion. 

The main thing throwing me on the murders if Adora is the culprit is just that I do not buy her pulling out teeth. That takes a lot of force and a lot of hate. That's where the Adora as a murderer theory falls flat for me because I can't justify it on a motivation or physical level.

i used the word slut because that is what he called her. 

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11 hours ago, Beezella said:

Right! I thought of another one, early on where she fell asleep/passed out overnight in her car after drinking, she lied to her mother, said something like she was tired so didn't want to drive home. Also that no one saw her, but she had to get a jump to start her dead battery car.

I feel like any lies to keep Adora off Camille's back are totally justified.

And in a coincidental bit of timing alongside this show, that Asia Aregento sexual assault case against a 17 year old that just came out in the news, is awful. There you have a case of a woman in her late thirties who groomed a 17 year old for sex, and set up his sexual assault. A classic example of a huge power differential, she was his director and had him call her mom  (and she called him son), for years, The adjectives here go beyond "gross", straight into unconscionable and  revolting.

10 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Speaking from personal experience, we weren't allowed to have our cell phones except for two 30 min periods in the day, and the device could only be used in one room with someone supervising. I'm assuming the same applies for the iPod, so I wasn't surprised to see her time being limited for using the iPod. Also, I mean, if you're going to just be on your cell phone/iPod, then you aren't really dealing with why you are there. Anything that you can possibly use to hurt yourself, even shoestrings, are called, "sharps." The item doesn't necessarily have to be sharp -- it's a catch all term for anything that can be used to self-harm or for harming others. That's another reason why she wouldn't be allowed to have her iPod.

 

Are you supposed to just sit in a sterile room and think about things? It doesnt seem like that would be helpful.  I can see them not wanting you to be talking to others on the phone, maybe.  A safe place to sleep is helpful, but just sitting there, or talking to other people with suicidal or cutting ideation doesnt seem helpful.

Would they double people up like that? Were you locked inside those rooms? 

It looked like Camille cut herself just deep enough to allow herself to get admitted. I thought she did that because she was afraid of killing herself, and that is the reason why she was admitted for observation? Do they ever tell us what triggered her to commit herself?

Edited by Buttless.
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5 hours ago, Buttless said:

Are you supposed to just sit in a sterile room and think about things? It doesnt seem like that would be helpful.  I can see them not wanting you to be talking to others on the phone, maybe.  A safe place to sleep is helpful, but just sitting there, or talking to other people with suicidal or cutting ideation doesnt seem helpful.

Would they double people up like that? Were you locked inside those rooms? 

No, in fact, just staying in your room would make it less probable that you'd be released anytime soon. You're supposed to participate in group therapy sessions and group activities throughout the day. You're also supposed to visit your assigned psychiatrist(s), too. 

Most people were two to a room with exceptions, and no one was ever locked in their room. In fact, the door wasn't allowed to be closed -- pushed up, sure -- but never closed. The only doors that were locked were the doors to the unit.

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4 hours ago, PepSinger said:

No, in fact, just staying in your room would make it less probable that you'd be released anytime soon. You're supposed to participate in group therapy sessions and group activities throughout the day. You're also supposed to visit your assigned psychiatrist(s), too. 

Most people were two to a room with exceptions, and no one was ever locked in their room. In fact, the door wasn't allowed to be closed -- pushed up, sure -- but never closed. The only doors that were locked were the doors to the unit.

Pepsinger is correct, but that also depends on the facility.  I would agree that isolating oneself is likely to slow discharge. Going to groups, participating, is a sign of improvement. Our unit had no locking doors, except to the outside and the staff room and med room. The patients could close their doors, but they did not lock. Some facilities may lock a patient's room, but that depends on the type of facility. A criminal psychiatric facility may have patients in individual rooms that lock at night or have cameras (we didn't have cameras in the rooms), but it also depends on whether the unit is a more voluntary type (like we might be seeing with Camille), or a long-term non-voluntary hospital that has much sicker patients who may have criminal pasts or have committed acts of violence while mentally ill. We often had patients in doubles (we had one triple) and a couple of single rooms for medical reasons. We had males and females in separate rooms too. We had several patients that were in transition (they were transgender), and to avoid HIPPA violating questions with other patients, they had a single room. We had a patient with HIV, or with a tracheotomy, or a special heart pump,  so for medical reasons, we may place a patient alone.  I think it depends on the facility, and the nature or extent of the severity of the illness. If you look at any of the high-end detox/addiction facilities in Malibu, California, they do things very differently. People get to keep their phones and have visitors, do yoga, get massages, get accupuncture, go swimming in the ocean-MUCH different from my unit. Those places cater to people with money who want a plush place to detox. They may be charging as much as $5,000 a day (or more). Our hospital facility was about $1,200-$1,800 a day, but covered by insurance for most because it was hospital based.   

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On 8/21/2018 at 11:48 PM, Buttless said:

also dont know if Ive been influenced by all of this, because instead of remembering the name of the show, Sharp Objects, I keep thinking of it as Sharper Images. Make of that what you will ;p

Heh, I mentioned this back in the episode 3 or 4 (or 5?) discussion. Hope I didn't implant the idea!

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11 minutes ago, carrps said:

Heh, I mentioned this back in the episode 3 or 4 (or 5?) discussion. Hope I didn't implant the idea!

Omg you may have brainwashed me.

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I keep saying "Sharper Things" in my head like Stranger Things.

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2 hours ago, Buttless said:

Omg you may have brainwashed me.

 

1 hour ago, nachomama said:

I keep saying "Sharper Things" in my head like Stranger Things.

This show is driving us nuts!

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14 hours ago, Buttless said:

And in a coincidental bit of timing alongside this show, that Asia Aregento sexual assault case against a 17 year old that just came out in the news, is awful. There you have a case of a woman in her late thirties who groomed a 17 year old for sex, and set up his sexual assault. A classic example of a huge power differential, she was his director and had him call her mom  (and she called him son), for years, The adjectives here go beyond "gross", straight into unconscionable and  revolting.

A series about the Argento family would make this one look quaint.

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On 8/22/2018 at 6:16 AM, preeya said:

It was the Everly Brothers

 

I thought the version played at the end of the show was by Billie Joe and Norah Jones from their Everly Brothers tribute album, but maybe not. 

Edited by iggysaurus.
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On 8/22/2018 at 2:54 PM, BingeyKohan said:

You have me trying to work out some twist ending where it's all been twisted Charlotte's Web fan fiction: Everything has actually happened in the mind of a hog on the farm, and Camille is like Charlotte, except spinning words into thin air (and onto herself) instead of into spiderwebs...

I think you're brilliant! 

On rewatching, I'm noticing that Amma says several times that she's "almost a woman" or that "mama says I'm almost a woman."  To me, that means getting her period for the first time.  Amma is 12 or 13, which is in the normal range for that--and there's yet more blood.

As to why CPS wasn't alerted, since so many people apparently were onto Adora, first of all, in this universe where we've seen no doctor but lots of prescription medicine, are we sure there *is* a CPS?  And secondly, MBP is notoriously difficult to prove--posters have written about cases that were discovered only after video surveillance--and we know Adora isn't going to allow that.  I would hate to be a social worker facing down Adora about her treatment of her children.

We have never, afaik, seen Ann's mother.  Her father told Camille she was "shopping," and some of the women in town said she might have left him.  When the police chief told Camille about alibis, he said Ann's father was "out of town?"  Yet he seems genuinely distraught over his daughter's death and seems like he was every bit as fond of his daughter and her wild, non-conforming ways as John Keene was of his sister..

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On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 9:36 PM, Black Knight said:

It's not a continuity error. They've purposely done that throughout the show - Camille will see one word, and then a later shot shows a different word. In this case the first word was "Queasy" - which is how she was feeling.

Oh, that is awesome. I'm sorry I've been missing this! Thanks ?

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On 20/08/2018 at 1:21 AM, Accidental Martyr said:

still don’t see how Camille carved the words on her back.

This.  I was thinking exactly the same thing. Maybe there is a way, I'm certain I wouldn't be able to do it.

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3 hours ago, cheewhiz said:
On 8/20/2018 at 3:21 AM, Accidental Martyr said:

still don’t see how Camille carved the words on her back.

This. . . Maybe there is a way,

What is the way? Other than someone else doing it.

Like a good book, I am dreading this series being over, it has really wormed its way into my psyche. I hope the murderer isn't anyone likeable and I hope it all gets wrapped up in a satisfactory manner. BTW, the final episode is listed as just one hour.

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1 hour ago, Beezella said:

What is the way? Other than someone else doing it.

Like a good book, I am dreading this series being over, it has really wormed its way into my psyche. I hope the murderer isn't anyone likeable and I hope it all gets wrapped up in a satisfactory manner. BTW, the final episode is listed as just one hour.

I don't want it to end, either.

I'm trying and trying to think of who could be the murderer.  We've been told so often that it's a man that I think it's probably going to be a woman.  We know that Adora murdered Marian through MBP, but I don't think Adora killed the two other girls, Ann and Natalie.  We learned from John Keene that Natalie attacked Adora physically, seriously enough that Adora had to get stitches.  And we know Natalie was a biter.  Leaving Adora out of the picture, is there someone who would "punish" the girls for hurting Adora?  I think the only person who would feel that protective of Adora might be Gayla, who kisses Adora good night as she tucks her in.  Everybody in town, apparently, knows about Adora's penchant for poisoning her children, but who would know better than Gayla?  And does Adora call Camille "dangerous" because she escaped the dosing Adora was giving her sisters?  Gayla would know all about that.  Since "domestic work and the slaughterhouse" are the only employment options for people of color in  Wind Gap, might Gayla have access through a relative to the tooth-pulling equipment from the slaughterhouse?

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8 minutes ago, Mothra said:

We learned from John Keene that Natalie attacked Adora physically, seriously enough that Adora had to get stitches.  And we know Natalie was a biter.

The theory I've worked up is that Natalie killed Ann because Natalie was a heinous, violent biter who attacks people and John helped or is covering up for Natalie, and Ashley killed Natalie because she was jealous of how much John was into his sister.

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On 20/08/2018 at 12:24 PM, Beezella said:

The song at the end was so perfect. A haunting melody with a story as horrifying as the show. If anyone is interested in the musicality:

I was watching with my closed captioning on and yes, it was a super creepy song!  I wondered if it was the Everley brothers who did it.  I'm guessing it wasn't a chart topper.

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Was Natalie's death caused by strangling?  We know Ann was strangled with a clothesline--another item Gayla would have more access to than others in the group of suspects.

And what are we to make of the townspeople smashing the stones from the creek where Ann's body was found?  It wasn't the stones' fault, or the fault of all the crawdabs and other critters that lived under them.  Some character--the barber?--speculated that they did it for luck, to keep another murder away.  That seems stupid to me.  Why on earth would you go to all that trouble?  The girl was already dead when she was put into the water, wasn't she?  It would make more sense for a mob to run through town tearing down clotheslines.

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3 hours ago, Beezella said:

What is the way? Other than someone else doing it.

Like a good book, I am dreading this series being over, it has really wormed its way into my psyche. I hope the murderer isn't anyone likeable and I hope it all gets wrapped up in a satisfactory manner. BTW, the final episode is listed as just one hour.

Is there anyone likeable? 
I also hope it's wrapped up in a satisfying way. 
 

BTW, this show has generated a lot of interesting commentary.  If you guys like this creepy stuff, check out Requiem on Netflix.  It's only six episodes.  Creepy English mystery, involving a small town.  It has a supernatural element, though, so that's different.  I wish more people would watch it for discussion purposes!

5 minutes ago, Mothra said:

Was Natalie's death caused by strangling?  We know Ann was strangled with a clothesline--another item Gayla would have more access to than others in the group of suspects.

And what are we to make of the townspeople smashing the stones from the creek where Ann's body was found?  It wasn't the stones' fault, or the fault of all the crawdabs and other critters that lived under them.  Some character--the barber?--speculated that they did it for luck, to keep another murder away.  That seems stupid to me.  Why on earth would you go to all that trouble?  The girl was already dead when she was put into the water, wasn't she?  It would make more sense for a mob to run through town tearing down clotheslines.

Yes, they must have had a reason for including that information?  And they showed the sheriff doing the exact same routine in the mornings, staring at the crucifix, slapping the wall going down the stairs, like in a superstitious way.  Are they just trying to show us all these folks have superstitious tendencies?  Does that have something to do with pulling out the girls' teeth? 

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I feel like any lies to keep Adora off Camille's back are totally justified.

And on this we agree! Yeesh, I feel like that's possibly a reason tomboy Camille took up cheeleading--to get her mother off her back.

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On 8/22/2018 at 12:53 PM, PepSinger said:

Speaking from personal experience, we wer

I just want to thank you for sharing your experiences.  It can't be easy even on a relatively anonymous forum. 

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On 8/20/2018 at 8:29 PM, SimonSeymour said:

So, did  anyone else notice that John told Camille while at that bar/house that Natalie’s nails were painted when she was found murdered, and he said that she NEVER would have painted her nails? 

On rewatch I noticed Adora had bright shiny red fingernails, as she was spoon feeding the poison. As others have pondered, the teeth pulling just doesn't make sense. Perhaps more than one person involved? Adora is either a useful idiot, or tried to pretty up the body after. Either way is monstrous.

Someone once told me that the most satisfying way for the viewer or reader to guess the killer in this kind of story is just before the protagonist does, or just before it is revealed. Well, I sure haven't figured it out!

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Watching this episode, it hit me: Adora hates Camille because she is the girl who lived. And Camille probably hates herself for the same reason. How dare she resist Adora's advances and save herself, while her sister dies?

Loved her scene with John. Hope this is the beginning of a long and beautiful healing process. 

The only question I want answered in the final episode is: is Camille going to be OK?

Edited by maddie965.
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On 8/24/2018 at 4:53 PM, Mothra said:

Was Natalie's death caused by strangling?  We know Ann was strangled with a clothesline--another item Gayla would have more access to than others in the group of suspects.

And what are we to make of the townspeople smashing the stones from the creek where Ann's body was found?  It wasn't the stones' fault, or the fault of all the crawdabs and other critters that lived under them.  Some character--the barber?--speculated that they did it for luck, to keep another murder away.  That seems stupid to me.  Why on earth would you go to all that trouble?  The girl was already dead when she was put into the water, wasn't she?  It would make more sense for a mob to run through town tearing down clotheslines.

I've never heard of that being done before , irl; so that was an odd comment. Why not sow salt around the spot, while youre at it.  And if Amma and the roller girls did it, Im going to need to know why all three have absolutely no conscience. Its one thing to kill someone. It's all too easy to do. But to sit there and pull out teeth?  It's a little bit farfetched that theyd all be happy giggly girls, and not one shred of conscience between them? Thats not how it plays out irl, most of the time. 

I also am confused as to how we are supposed to view Ann and Natilie.   I've never personally known any biters at 12 years old. I cant imagine why , reallly, they'd be biting, and not be taken to a therapist.  John's explanation for Natalie was dumb. I also bit my nails at that age and probably got into some minor physical fights with siblings, and i never bit them. And she bit him hard enough to make a permanent scar. That's a pretty deep bite wound. He'd have to go to the ER and get it washed out and shots.  What was he doing to justify that? He blames "the town" and says that was her only way of defending herself.  It's crap writing. I think the writer and makers of this decided its not going to be a real story, despite its grittiness, but a fairy tale.

3 hours ago, maddie965 said:

 

Loved her scene with John. Hope this is the beginning of a long and beautiful healing process. 

 

Because the actor looked even older than his real age.  I agree with everyone else, that had they put an 18 year old in that part, it would have been shocking and, yes, extremely "gross." And they would have lost the audience.

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Not for me, it wouldn't. They were both in need of healing. They both needed comfort and understanding. John saw her. She saw him. It was a meeting of the souls.

Nothing remotely gross about it. Even if the actor was 18. They were both adults. It was consensual sex. I'm completely fine with it.

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Alan (Adora's husband) had a flashback....does this mean he's the murderer? He's a minor character, mostly, and while weak in character, he may be strong enough to pull the teeth of the girls out. I just find that weird.

Edited by Notwisconsin.
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8 hours ago, Buttless said:

I also am confused as to how we are supposed to view Ann and Natilie.   I've never personally known any biters at 12 years old. I cant imagine why , reallly, they'd be biting, and not be taken to a therapist.  John's explanation for Natalie was dumb. I also bit my nails at that age and probably got into some minor physical fights with siblings, and i never bit them. And she bit him hard enough to make a permanent scar. That's a pretty deep bite wound. He'd have to go to the ER and get it washed out and shots.  What was he doing to justify that? He blames "the town" and says that was her only way of defending herself.  It's crap writing. I think the writer and makers of this decided its not going to be a real story, despite its grittiness, but a fairy tale.

I think "fairy tale" might be right.

Why would Natalie need to defend herself against the town?  Did people beat her up because she collected spiders?  John lumped Natalie and Ann together as misfits, yet they were embraced by Adora--whose imprimatur should have guaranteed them entrance to the Junior League!  Is the whole town a bunch of zombies, or is it like Raccoon City in that old video game?  And Amma hung out with them, so how "left out" could they have felt? 

It's not just the biting as a 12-year-old that's horrifying, not even the biting hard enough to disfigure an ear, leave a scar or require stitches.  What's wrong with a child of any age who reacts to a stolen pencil by blinding the thief?  Natalie needed to be defended, all right--defended *against*.

And what about poor no-personality Ann?  We don't know anything about her at all, good or bad, except that she was friends with Natalie and was "tutored" by Adora.  Adora tells Camille, bitterly (her default mode when dealing with Camille) that since she'd failed with Camille, she worked with those girls to try to get it right.  We know Adora failed to *kill* Camillie; was she trying to *kill* Ann and Natalie?

I have enjoyed the artistry of the show (didn't read the book) so much that I'm going to be really pissed off if the denouement is some half-assed, out of left field explanation that Adora secretly lifts weights and thus had no trouble pulling the girls' teeth.

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17 hours ago, maddie965 said:

Not for me, it wouldn't. They were both in need of healing. They both needed comfort and understanding. John saw her. She saw him. It was a meeting of the souls.

Nothing remotely gross about it. Even if the actor was 18. They were both adults. It was consensual sex. I'm completely fine with it.

I was coming at this as a criticism of TPTB keeping the age of John so young. As a piece of television entertainment, it works because were looking at a 23 or 24 year old man (Taylor John Smith) and not an 18 year old. I originally thought the character was in his 20s because he was working heavy equipment at his job.

Smith's age isnt noted on his imdb page, so Im just taking the word of other posters, on his age He looks even older than that, to me. Maybe he shaved some years off his age, a la Margo Robbie.

Anyway, one thing is for certain, Ive never seen an 18 year old that looked like that. Do a search on 18 year old actors. They look like babies.

 

10 hours ago, Mothra said:

I think "fairy tale" might be right.

Why would Natalie need to defend herself against the town?  Did people beat her up because she collected spiders?  John lumped Natalie and Ann together as misfits, yet they were embraced by Adora--whose imprimatur should have guaranteed them entrance to the Junior League!  Is the whole town a bunch of zombies, or is it like Raccoon City in that old video game?  And Amma hung out with them, so how "left out" could they have felt? 

It's not just the biting as a 12-year-old that's horrifying, not even the biting hard enough to disfigure an ear, leave a scar or require stitches.  What's wrong with a child of any age who reacts to a stolen pencil by blinding the thief?  Natalie needed to be defended, all right--defended *against*.

And what about poor no-personality Ann?  We don't know anything about her at all, good or bad, except that she was friends with Natalie and was "tutored" by Adora.  Adora tells Camille, bitterly (her default mode when dealing with Camille) that since she'd failed with Camille, she worked with those girls to try to get it right.  We know Adora failed to *kill* Camillie; was she trying to *kill* Ann and Natalie?

I have enjoyed the artistry of the show (didn't read the book) so much that I'm going to be really pissed off if the denouement is some half-assed, out of left field explanation that Adora secretly lifts weights and thus had no trouble pulling the girls' teeth.

Lets just get this out of the way, I would definitely have something against Natalie for collecting spiders.

But, yeah...poor Ann.   I think you get carried away with the evocative stuff in this show and float right over the badly written parts, until youre back to your senses. Ann sounds bratty, willful, and disturbed enough to give Adora stitched from biting her. But Natie also takes a chunk out of Ashley like she's Mike Tyson, and also bites her brother as hard as a pitbull. But yet Ann is called a "cunt" by Camille and also says she might 've killed her too if she bit her sister.  John talks about Natalies disturbing behavior as if it was something lighthearted. And Camille doesnt see anything wrong with it. He really didnt like Ann. But the only thing we really hear about Ann from a close source is her dad,, who obviously loved her, and until its mentioned by John (in bed) that Ann gave Adora stitches (b itches get stitches and Adora probably did something to deserve them ha), we really have only heard her dads's comments.  I dont trust what Amma has to say about the victims because she obviously hated them. So yeah, poor Ann.

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2 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Alan (Adora's husband) had a flashback....does this mean he's the murderer? He's a minor character, mostly, and while weak in character, he may be strong enough to pull the teeth of the girls out. I just find that weird.

And didn’t he have an old bite mark scar on his hand?

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There appears to be paternity test results in Amma's records (about 25 minutes into the episode, Richard is looking at Amma's files at Woodberry.) The chart appeared very briefly and not very much in focus, but showed Adora as the Mother, Amma as the child, and an alleged father who was being tested. Perhaps Adora wasn't sure who the father was? Others have speculated she and the Chief may have had an affair at some point.

Here is a paternity result that looks similar and some explanation: https://dnacenter.com/blog/understanding-paternity-test-results/

I'm not sure how that would fit into the mystery.

One wild thought, pure conjecture but I'll spoil it anyway:

Spoiler

Could Anne and Natalie have been pregnant and Adora wanted to spare them an unwed pregnancy? Amma was talking with Camille early on about how cute babies are. Still, but why the teeth? Unless it's related to the biting?

Edited by Beezella. Reason: fixed a twice space, added a thought
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3 hours ago, stacyasp said:

And didn’t he have an old bite mark scar on his hand?

I thought we saw Alan bite his hand in (apparent) frustration, didn't we?  (I believe Adora had rejected his sexual overtures.)

Between the knives, the pins, the paper clips, the teeth, the pliers, and the wires, one could say this show sure is full of SHARP OBJECTS.  

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4 hours ago, Buttless said:

Anyway, one thing is for certain, Ive never seen an 18 year old that looked like that. Do a search on 18 year old actors. They look like babies.

I have one, and I concur.  If a 30 something alcoholic with significant emotional problems was buying him whiskey and hooking up with him or one of his friends, it would be, um, not beautiful.  The actor playing John looks like he's out of college, because that's his actual age. 

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On 8/23/2018 at 4:19 PM, peach said:

A series about the Argento family would make this one look quaint.

As much as I'm disturbed by Camille having sex with John (because of his extremely distressed mental state, his youth, and Camille's position of power as the person reporting on his case), what Asia Argento did ranks as far worse, IMO.

She'd hired that boy as an actor when he was seven, and ever since he'd referred to her as his mother on social media. If she did, in fact, sleep with him when he was seventeen (and the evidence strongly suggests it), it just makes me want to take a shower even thinking about it.

As for the biting, I can't tell whether John brushing off his sister's habit of biting people is meant to show that he'll always defend her, even when her behavior was appalling - or if we're really being asked to buy that it was completely normal and understandable for a girl to bite people like that, because she was in Wind Gap. Hopefully the finale will clarify things.

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17 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Hopefully the finale will clarify things.

I have a bad feeling about this.  There better not be some unsatisfying non-answer.

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The way I see it:  My two cent prediction.

Adora guilty of murder (Marian) and attempted murder (Amma). Will probably be committed to a mental institution, because she is one sick person.

The other two murdered girls likely killed by the "marauding skaters" (Amma and her two friends). I can't envision Amma being strong enough to have done it alone.   JMHO

Edited by preeya.
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9 hours ago, Mothra said:

I think "fairy tale" might be right.

Why would Natalie need to defend herself against the town?  Did people beat her up because she collected spiders?  John lumped Natalie and Ann together as misfits, yet they were embraced by Adora--whose imprimatur should have guaranteed them entrance to the Junior League!  Is the whole town a bunch of zombies, or is it like Raccoon City in that old video game?  And Amma hung out with them, so how "left out" could they have felt? 

It's not just the biting as a 12-year-old that's horrifying, not even the biting hard enough to disfigure an ear, leave a scar or require stitches.  What's wrong with a child of any age who reacts to a stolen pencil by blinding the thief?  Natalie needed to be defended, all right--defended *against*.

And what about poor no-personality Ann?  We don't know anything about her at all, good or bad, except that she was friends with Natalie and was "tutored" by Adora.  Adora tells Camille, bitterly (her default mode when dealing with Camille) that since she'd failed with Camille, she worked with those girls to try to get it right.  We know Adora failed to *kill* Camillie; was she trying to *kill* Ann and Natalie?

I have enjoyed the artistry of the show (didn't read the book) so much that I'm going to be really pissed off if the denouement is some half-assed, out of left field explanation that Adora secretly lifts weights and thus had no trouble pulling the girls' teeth.

Oh I definitely think this is heading toward la some kind of lame ending as far as the “mystery” is concerned. A good mystery leaves you satisfied at the end because when the culprit is revealed everything you’ve read or seen before locks into place and you should wonder how you didn’t see it coming.

There has been absolutely nothing so far in this show that has even indicated that Amma is violent, let alone capable of two cold blooded murders. What’s the most violent thing she’s done? Put a lollipop in her sister’s hair? 

If it’s Adora and Alan I can live with it. If they make it Amma or bust out Ashely or some shit as a last minute murderer it will be unjustified and depending on how it was handled could ruin the show for me

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11 hours ago, Mothra said:

I think "fairy tale" might be right.

Why would Natalie need to defend herself against the town?  Did people beat her up because she collected spiders?  John lumped Natalie and Ann together as misfits, yet they were embraced by Adora--whose imprimatur should have guaranteed them entrance to the Junior League!  Is the whole town a bunch of zombies, or is it like Raccoon City in that old video game?  And Amma hung out with them, so how "left out" could they have felt? 

It's not just the biting as a 12-year-old that's horrifying, not even the biting hard enough to disfigure an ear, leave a scar or require stitches.  What's wrong with a child of any age who reacts to a stolen pencil by blinding the thief?  Natalie needed to be defended, all right--defended *against*.

And what about poor no-personality Ann?  We don't know anything about her at all, good or bad, except that she was friends with Natalie and was "tutored" by Adora.  Adora tells Camille, bitterly (her default mode when dealing with Camille) that since she'd failed with Camille, she worked with those girls to try to get it right.  We know Adora failed to *kill* Camillie; was she trying to *kill* Ann and Natalie?

I have enjoyed the artistry of the show (didn't read the book) so much that I'm going to be really pissed off if the denouement is some half-assed, out of left field explanation that Adora secretly lifts weights and thus had no trouble pulling the girls' teeth.

This seems to be a general problem in this show. There's not much character development. What we've seen of most of the characters we knew at the beginning and have learned little more about them.  Even Camille herself. They're going overboard on the artistic at the expense of any development. Moodiness, words, flashes and a lot of time wasted with driving shots.  It's more like a game than a drama. Fun for some viewers if you like that sort of thing, but not enough has moved along, charcterwise especially but even plotwise.

Edited by ferjy.
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Quote

Anyway, one thing is for certain, Ive never seen an 18 year old that looked like that. Do a search on 18 year old actors. They look like babies.

Well, I can think of a couple of guys I went to high school with (a long, long time ago) and no kidding, when we were 16-17, the one had a full beard, not teen-age boy scraggly Shaggy stuff. The other one didn't grow out his facial hair but it was obvious he would be well-bearded if he'd let it go. And my brother had a friend that was similar. Early blooming isn't only for girls.

I'm all over the map with who did what, but I feel like somehow Adora is tied up in the murder of the girls. For one thing, why was she giving them so much attention anyway? Adora doesn't do anything that doesn't serve her own purpose. She may have "mentored" the girls because it would reflect well on her, or perhaps she was going to poison them too. Their deaths were another opportunity for Adora to get more attention - they were the girls she gave extra attention to, and it reminds everyone of the loss of Marian, so I can see where there would be some motive for Adora to kill them.

I can't remember actual causes of death (I can't keep Ann and Natalie straight) - did the sheriff say anything about that? I'm sure there were autopsies, but it would be interesting to find out if they were poisoned in any way (I am sure if there had been anything in their systems that would have indicated Adora's handiwork the sheriff would not have shared that). I'm not onboard with the Gayla theory, and Alan - he just seems so weak in every way. Amma is manipulative and she certainly can be cruel, but I'm not sure I would buy her being that cruel. Though didn't she say at one point that she quit being friends with Ann and Natalie for some stupid reason?

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On 8/20/2018 at 5:26 PM, Penman61 said:

Of course Richard is hurt and angry, but why not a simple, gender-free, "Fuck you/fuck off/eat shit/we're done/DIAF."  There are many, many ways to hurl your anger at a woman without telling her she's a slut and her sex smells because she chose to have sex with someone other than you.  

I think he chose the words that he knew would hurt the most, and maybe later---I'm hoping--might even regret them.

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11 hours ago, Maysie said:

Well, I can think of a couple of guys I went to high school with (a long, long time ago) and no kidding, when we were 16-17, the one had a full beard, not teen-age boy scraggly Shaggy stuff. The other one didn't grow out his facial hair but it was obvious he would be well-bearded if he'd let it go. And my brother had a friend that was similar. Early blooming isn't only for girls.

 

There're always outliers. But the subject matter should point it out. Instead we have Camille say about him at first sight that he looks like "gay bait."  (Which also? Who talks like that?)

Looking back, the guys I knew that had facial hair, still had baby faces under them. And didnt John say he just turned 18, or was that just in the book?

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On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎27 at 6:27 AM, Buttless said:

There're always outliers. But the subject matter should point it out. Instead we have Camille say about him at first sight that he looks like "gay bait."  (Which also? Who talks like that?)

Looking back, the guys I knew that had facial hair, still had baby faces under them. And didnt John say he just turned 18, or was that just in the book?

I dated a guy that was John's age and he looked older than John.  I was younger than him.  People age differently.  This is overthinking at this point.

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Catching up after holidays and before watching the finale

The talk about murder ballads makes me expect Nick Cave's Where the White Roses Grow next - creepy as hell and would fit well here.

It's also interesting to me that the "problem" child in the family (I mean Camille) is the one who is the most resilient and rejected all (gently killing) smothering.

Lastly, quoting from https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/02/my-boyfriend-called-me-a-slut-now-i-dread-seeing-him-mariella-frostrup

Quote

 

[slut] a) An offensive term for a woman thought to be sexually promiscuous; b) An offensive term for a woman who charges for engaging in sexual activities; and c) An offensive term for a woman who is regarded as not concerned about conventional standards of domestic cleanliness. 

(...)

Even if you’d jumped him on your first handshake, demanded he showered you in pound coins afterwards and then tipped your dinner all over his sofa and refused to wipe it off, calling you a slut in anything other than ironic jest or consensual sex fantasy is entirely unacceptable.

 

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On 8/27/2018 at 8:27 AM, Buttless said:

There're always outliers. But the subject matter should point it out. Instead we have Camille say about him at first sight that he looks like "gay bait."  (Which also? Who talks like that?)

Looking back, the guys I knew that had facial hair, still had baby faces under them. And didnt John say he just turned 18, or was that just in the book?

So your perspective was as a person younger than 18.

The point in the story is that John is 18. Not an 18 year old that looks much older than 18. Just 18.

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