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S04.E11: The Beginning (2) 2018.07.06

And he wouldn't necessarily be the same, or even a he.  Since the version of Cassie and Cole at the end is the version gave birth to Athan in the first place, this would really be their second child and come from a different egg and sperm.  But still, they could raise a new child or children.

And if Jennifer is still alive to be in Deacon's bar, then its possible for the whole crew to get together, if they wanted to, and presuming other events don't cause early deaths and such.

I do wonder a bit how the loop would 'restart'?  If Cassie lets the machine go into the red forest?  Or if Cole doesn't "erase" himself?  Or was that the point of removing the primary code from Titan, to delete Cole from it?

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I loved the ending. For me (and perhaps a few of you too seeing as so many of you enjoy many of the same shows as me), it was such a refreshing, joyful experience for a show like this to finally have a MEGA HAPPY ENDING! Seriously, when was the last time a show like this had the heroes get such a giant win? Maybe last season of Legends of Tomorrow? Certainly not Walking Dead or Arrow or The Flash or The Magicians or hell even Orphan Black. All the genre shows these days are GLOOM! and DOOM! and MISERY! and just such a downer, there are a lot of genre shows that are losing audiences specifically (I think) because of all the MAXIMUM PAIN!!1! LoT made me feel happy, 12 Monkeys made me feel these soaring emotions, more than just "happy".....maybe Im a total weirdo (ok, I am a total weirdo) but the ending of 12 Monkeys sort of healed a little bit of hurt for me. I dont know, Im not expressing it well but for me, emotionally, 12 monkeys went somewhere surprising and healthy and for that I will always love this show.

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7 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

but the ending of 12 Monkeys sort of healed a little bit of hurt for me. I dont know, Im not expressing it well but for me, emotionally, 12 monkeys went somewhere surprising and healthy and for that I will always love this show.

I think I get what you're saying.  I'm the same.  I am still a bit sad that it's over, but I am so grateful that everyone got a happy ending that it makes me feel better because I was able to see it and rejoice in it.  It'll also make re-watches better because I know where they end up.  There's been shows that I thoroughly enjoyed that the ending ruined it so much for me that I can't re-watch it at all (HIMYM and Lost to just name two, but there are too many others). 

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14 hours ago, wanderingnettle said:
On 7/8/2018 at 12:39 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

Matala's Twitter says they filmed a scene where Cassie breaks up with Aaron, but then had to cut it for time. 

That was actually a joke, and he's deleted the tweet where he said it since. He said they filmed it, but had to cut it as it ran for 27 minutes...

Did he actually say it was a joke? I took the Tweet to mean the episode in general was 27 minutes over, and the Cassie/ Aaron scene was one of many that got cut. (Considering he said there would be a lot of deleted scenes on the blu-ray... or was he joking about that, too?)

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59 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Did he actually say it was a joke?

The fact that it (supposedly) ran to 27 minutes is enough to convince me that he wasn't serious.

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So, the big, earnest question:

Isn't OldJennifer void now that YoungJennifer is recreating unicorns and doesn't wind up leading The Daughters? 

There was much joy when the Simple Minds starting playing. Like bouncing up and down excited about it. I love Deacon more then I reasonably should. And Max. I didn't give a hoot about Max initially but I was very happy to see her again for some reason.

I liked the Cedar and Pine ending. Because of course that's where they belong. Maybe Cole wouldn't have liked the Keys that much anyway.

I don't think it needed Aaron (even hypothetically). Aaron died a long time ago and everyone is fine with that. I never got the impression that they were engaged, just really on and off. But mostly off once Cole came on the scene. 

Holy Freaking Shit, Cassie. That fight scene with Olivia was amazing (and gross). I was slack jawed the entire time. I never heard them refer to the skeleton as female before. I don't think they did in The Nightroom anyway. 

The goodbye scenes killed me dead. The stuffed unicorn and Casserole saying goodbye. Tears, I tell you.

I'm sort of glad they scrapped the booty call aspect from Cassie's initial walking to the car scene. 

Also for the sake of discussion, would Katarina have stayed married to Elliott, even in another life? 

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24 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

The fact that it (supposedly) ran to 27 minutes is enough to convince me that he wasn't serious.

Like I said, to me the tweet did not imply that this single scene was 27 minutes long, just that they had to cut 27 minutes in general. (And I don't quite get why saying the scene was 27 minutes long would be particularly funny?) But since the tweet is gone, I can't reread it; maybe I interpreted it wrong.

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1 minute ago, dargosmydaddy said:

And I don't quite get why saying the scene was 27 minutes long would be particularly funny?

Because the entire episode is only 42-43 minutes long.  A 27 minute scene (more than half the episode) is completely ludicrous.  Therefore, the suggestion that such a scene was ever filmed at all, is an obvious joke.

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40 minutes ago, Aliferously said:

....

Also for the sake of discussion, would Katarina have stayed married to Elliott, even in another life? 

See, the more I think about it, the more I'm like - this big, happy ending is a bit too big and too happy. It was Katarina's experience with Cole and Cassie that convinced her to not abort Hannah. Elliot had already left her by then, because of her decision to not go through with the pregnancy. At what point did their lives change so that they ended up together and why? Did they retain all the memories of this eliminated cycle since they were time travelers as well? At what point in their lives would they have gotten those memories back?

And that brings up another point, if Elliot does remember, did the monkey army use (a version of) the serum for their time travelers too? Does that mean all those random henchmen remember as well? Wouldn't that be kinda problematic?

As for the questions about Athan possibly being born, hell Ramse somehow ended up with his son. Seems very convenient that he and Elena would still meet without the apocalypse happening and she would get pregnant with the same egg and sperm that resulted in Sam. 

I don't know, with these things and the doctors meeting up and being friends, and Jennifer's freaking unicorn, I'm leaning more and more towards this is the red forest.

It's understandable. The army started working on brainwashing Cassie all the way back in season one and she went through multiple bouts of captivity (in body and mind!). Plus, she's experienced so much loss of loved ones- Aathon, Aaron, Deacon, even her backstory is about the sudden loss of her mother and she's gone through losing/believing she's lost Cole multiple times. Then, she ends up having to kill 7 billion people. I could see how she would be a tad unstable at this point, just saying. I mean, I love the happy ending, Cole and Cassie are my favorite all time ship and I wanted them to get the fairytale, but I'm really leaning the other way.

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1 hour ago, cynic said:

As for the questions about Athan possibly being born, hell Ramse somehow ended up with his son. Seems very convenient that he and Elena would still meet without the apocalypse happening and she would get pregnant with the same egg and sperm that resulted in Sam. 

Ramse got his son, the same one, because without the plague, he had a different future, but had still met his wife, and they still had a son, but now that son wasn't taken by Olivia.  But Cole and Cassie are the ones that did the whole thing, her 2018 personna no longer exists because now its been written over by the 2015 one that had been taken by Cole to the future, and then came back and now remembers everything because the timeline got restored.  

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1 hour ago, cynic said:

I'm leaning more and more towards this is the red forest.

No, no, no!

*Puts fingers in ears and refuses to think about any of cynic's perfectly valid points more deeply...*

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Awesome conclusion, and while I think it's a happy ending, I like the fact that they left it a bit open to interpretation.

Remember, the old Primary from 1492 told Olivia she was not the true Witness because she didn't have to endure loss (or something like that).

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But the deal with the Red Forest wasn't that you got to live your fantasy happiness, was it? I thought Olivia and her people were selling it as getting to relive all your perfect moments for eternity when time collapsed in on itself - that was certainly what the Tall Man's father seemed to think it was and what he told Cassie it would be. And I'm not sure they were even telling the truth. Every time we saw the RF coming into existence it was violent and destructive. I think maybe the Witness was lying to her followers about what was really going to happen when the RF came. 

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3 hours ago, Aliferously said:

So, the big, earnest question:

Isn't OldJennifer void now that YoungJennifer is recreating unicorns and doesn't wind up leading The Daughters? 

 

 As long as she's living, Jennifer (like all of us) is always getting older. The final montage was not all the same time. Remember, in the original timeline, James Cole would have been a young kid in 2015, Ramse a young teen, Deacon too. Hannah a very young child, etc. Most likely, Jennifer ended up founding a performance art troupe called The Daughters ;p

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This was a great show and I'm really going to miss it.  Crazy Jen, unique and hilarious.  Cassie, fearless and gorgeous.  Cole, dark and resilient.  Everyone... unforgettable.

But it's over, folks, and there's no point flogging a dead horse, so I'll say good night.  Last to leave - turn out the lights.

Thanks, 12 Monkeys!

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6 hours ago, Netfoot said:

The fact that it (supposedly) ran to 27 minutes is enough to convince me that he wasn't serious.

He was talking about the episode, not the scene.

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13 minutes ago, Zoe said:

He was talking about the episode, not the scene.

Well, quoting the post by @wanderingnettle

Quote

He said they filmed it, but had to cut it as it ran for 27 minutes...

(emphasis mine)
I am reading the word "it" to refer to "a scene where Cassie breaks up with Aaron" which clearly refers to the single scene as 27 minutes long, not the entire episode.

Of course, you may freely interpret it any way you wish.

Edited by Netfoot.
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I saw the tweet before it was deleted, and the context was clear.

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24 minutes ago, Zoe said:

I saw the tweet before it was deleted, and the context was clear.

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not crazy!

Can't wait to see all those deleted scenes, I bet there's a lot of good ones.

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So, does anyone have any thoughts on how much of all of this Athan actually knew about? 

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5 hours ago, Zoe said:

I saw the tweet before it was deleted, and the context was clear.

Knowing Terry's humour I interpreted it differently, but we'll know soon enough, when the Blu-ray comes out in less than 5 weeks! Yay. 

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8 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not crazy!

Can't wait to see all those deleted scenes, I bet there's a lot of good ones.

Me too!  Already pre-ordered the DVD's. 

6 hours ago, jmonique said:

So, does anyone have any thoughts on how much of all of this Athan actually knew about? 

I was going to say probably all of it, but Jennifer didn't know everything either.  So, who knows. 

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Ok I think we are all getting to the stage where we start to overthink which means I am out.    It’s fine to interpret but once “overthinking” starts and treating a show like a college class I get itchy.

15 hours ago, bethy said:

But the deal with the Red Forest wasn't that you got to live your fantasy happiness, was it? I thought Olivia and her people were selling it as getting to relive all your perfect moments for eternity when time collapsed in on itself - that was certainly what the Tall Man's father seemed to think it was and what he told Cassie it would be. And I'm not sure they were even telling the truth. Every time we saw the RF coming into existence it was violent and destructive. I think maybe the Witness was lying to her followers about what was really going to happen when the RF came. 

That was Olivia's Red Forest anger rage but also built by abject need to not be alone.  I am guessing she didn’t actually care about anyone else’s need but her own.  But If you follow Cassie being the actual Witness she would give everyone their ideal ending which fits with the ending of the show.  Everyone who matters got their happy ending.  

That being said I do prefer to follow the idea that Cassie did do the right thing in the end.  That she loved Cole enough to do what he needed her to do and let all their time streams run their course.  The show just works better for me that way.  These are all time travelers and I can see them having echos of their former lives in their head and that effecting them and changing their decisions.  Jones staying with her husband and keeping her daughter.  Choosing family over science.  Jennifer not going crazy and yet being a little crazy anyway.   Ramse getting his family.  Deacon his bar.  The only one not being happy is Cassie herself because Cole is what made her happy....until time spit out Cole back because time owned them one.

 

i like that version.

Edited by Chaos Theory.
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14 hours ago, bethy said:

But the deal with the Red Forest wasn't that you got to live your fantasy happiness, was it? I thought Olivia and her people were selling it as getting to relive all your perfect moments for eternity when time collapsed in on itself - that was certainly what the Tall Man's father seemed to think it was and what he told Cassie it would be. And I'm not sure they were even telling the truth. Every time we saw the RF coming into existence it was violent and destructive. I think maybe the Witness was lying to her followers about what was really going to happen when the RF came. 

What I never understood about Olivia's Red Forest is that she said several times that it would mean every moment existed simultaneously which sounds like you don't just get the happy memories. You get all the shitty ones too. Since the Red Forest didn't exist for most of the show, how did Olivia know what would really happen? She and the Pallid Man kept trying to convince people it was a good thing because you would have eternity with your loved ones, but imagine an eternity of also reliving all the painful moments of your life. There was no guarantee that everyone would get to cherry pick only the happy/good memories.

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On 9-7-2018 at 10:28 PM, cynic said:

See, the more I think about it, the more I'm like - this big, happy ending is a bit too big and too happy. It was Katarina's experience with Cole and Cassie that convinced her to not abort Hannah. Elliot had already left her by then, because of her decision to not go through with the pregnancy. At what point did their lives change so that they ended up together and why? Did they retain all the memories of this eliminated cycle since they were time travelers as well? At what point in their lives would they have gotten those memories back?

 

Thing is, Katarina is not the marriage type. Even if she lasted longer then six whole days in this life cycle I doubt she'd stay with Elliott indefinitely.

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On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:12 PM, CrystalMoon said:

Everyone's lists of their favorite things are all great, and I'm not ready to make my own list just now. Mostly, I was so glad I wasn't spoiled 

First time posting here, probably because I didn't trust myself not to peek ahead since I'm usually all about spoilers except for one other show, Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

BTVS has been the show I used as my standard for every other show I've watched, some have come close but nothing ever matched it, let alone beat it. 

Until the finale of 12 Monkeys, which I just finished watching about an hour ago.  I never thought I'd say this about any other show, but 12 Monkeys has now become the best series I've ever watched. I still love BTVS, but damn, 12 Monkeys? Amazing.

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:40 AM, coppersin said:

This show is gonna be awesome as a binge rewatch.

I can't wait to binge rewatch every single episode of this show. As another poster mentioned (I lost the quote when I was writing this), this is truly the kind of show you can take notes on for further study. They teach Buffy classes in some colleges, I'd go back to school just to take a class on 12 Monkeys.

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17 hours ago, tveyeonyou said:

First time posting here, probably because I didn't trust myself not to peek ahead since I'm usually all about spoilers except for one other show, Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

BTVS has been the show I used as my standard for every other show I've watched, some have come close but nothing ever matched it, let alone beat it. 

Until the finale of 12 Monkeys, which I just finished watching about an hour ago.  I never thought I'd say this about any other show, but 12 Monkeys has now become the best series I've ever watched. I still love BTVS, but damn, 12 Monkeys? Amazing.

I can't wait to binge rewatch every single episode of this show. As another poster mentioned (I lost the quote when I was writing this), this is truly the kind of show you can take notes on for further study. They teach Buffy classes in some colleges, I'd go back to school just to take a class on 12 Monkeys.

Same!!!  I've already restarted a binge watch even though I just finished one a couple of weeks ago because now I'm looking for hints to the finale.  The fact that these show runners planned out the entire run and really paid attention to all of the details makes this show so much better on multiple watches.  I keep finding new things!

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So since they introduced the diseased corpse early on, and it ended up being Olivia, does that mean that everything that happened was always destined to happen?

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4 hours ago, Ray Adverb said:

So since they introduced the diseased corpse early on, and it ended up being Olivia, does that mean that everything that happened was always destined to happen?

I don’t think her corpse means that everything was destined to happen. If anything, I think it means that like Sliding Doors or a Choose Your Own Adventure book, there were always multiple possibilities based on the decisions that multiple people made.

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Im just thinking about how frustrating The Red Forest would have been for Olivia. Think about it, her entire life was the constant pursuit of The Red Forest. Talk about your loops!

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 6:51 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don’t think her corpse means that everything was destined to happen.

As in the Ouroboros, everything had to happen in order for the consequences of it happening to be undone. Cole is the ultimate paradox. All his actions were necessary to assure that the damage his birth caused to time could be reversed.

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On 2018-07-08 at 6:18 AM, Notwisconsin said:

They were living together in a long-term, loving relationship, but then in the rerun, he's nowhere to be seen. I'm just saying that it bugged me is all.

In the original timeline they broke up because he thought she was crazy for believing in Cole's time travel story. Here they broke up because Cassie is in love with a man who never existed.

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On 09/07/2018 at 2:39 AM, dargosmydaddy said:

Matala's Twitter says they filmed a scene where Cassie breaks up with Aaron, but then had to cut it for time.

So the first Blu-ray order has been delivered, and the recipient has reported back.

The extras comprise deleted scenes (sorry - no breakup scene with Aaron Marker though!), and trailers. No English subs included.

more detail here:

https://projectsplinter.com/2018/08/13/12-monkeys-season-3-and-4-blu-ray-details/

Edited by wanderingnettle. Reason: Typo
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So, someone on twitter just asked Terry Matalas if the ‘Aaron Marker break up scene’ would be released online as it wasn’t included on the Blu- Ray. Guess I should have been more blunt - it’s not on the Blu-ray because there was never was such a scene. It was a joke!

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I purposely avoided all the places I could be spoiled, but now when I finally watched the FINALE, what finale that was! Just brilliant! I loved everything about it. Almost bitter happy end, but end nevertheless. I will miss this show, but I think it had own cycle and it finished on high note, for sure. Thanks to writers and actors for fine entertainment.  

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