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S03.E25: Boo Normal; Once Upon a Time 2018.05.27

13 minutes ago, CuddlerOfDragons said:

They have, it was called 'Sliders' where a group of people travel to different AUs each week trying to get back home to their own reality.  There were some really clever versions of planet earth to begin with but it went down hill after a while.  Screened sometime in the 1990s.

Yes, good memory .  Sliders was the first show I remember John Rhys-Davies from. 87 episodes and they ran out of ideas and took it in a lesser (my opinion) direction.  

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Just wanted to say; It's disappointing enough as it is that the show was canned but then release these terrible episodes on top of it? No wonder why the third season tanked so badly.

 

What a shitshow they turned this amazing show into.

 

RIP,  God bless Lucifer and all that.

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There was a show called "Awake" - a few years back - starring Jason Isaacs. It was only on for one season, but I think I read it was based on Sliding Doors - sort of.. or the same concept or something. The main character kept slipping back and forth into alternate realities. 

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Well that was awkward. For me on netflix the description was that Lucifer experiences life if he never met Chloe. So I expected a universe without Chloe at all, not this one where Lucifer's father did not push them to meet and they still met later on. It was confusing. Not what I expected. And maybe I would have liked it more if the description was more accurate.

Either way, they still did what they always do in the original universe. And I don't know if I missed anything but where exactly in the timeline is this supposed to take place?

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On 30/05/2018 at 12:29 AM, Gigi43 said:

Did I miss something or was the episode  description  writer drunk? I thought it was suppose to be "Mom's Alternate reality." The episode seemed to be largely backtracking the idea of God being a not-so-great figure with the way the narrative was done.  I did kind of like everyone but it still felt like anew hour long cop out. 

 

So Azriel didn't freaking mention the blade or Uriel (unless I missed that I was doing something for a portion of it) and Amenadiel and Maze were left out of the crumb of a supernatural story we were given. I get this show likes to go in "the other direction "  but this Angel Of Death was a but too much. Trixie could be a better Angel Of Death. Too bad though Lucifer and Ella didn't get to really  talk about this stuff.

 

Not surprisingly the episodes seemed to be the lowest rated ever. They weren't the worst ever but the show could have gone out on a higher note if they just left  these at a DVD release bonus or put them online  at some point.

I'm thinking that this is what the episode was meant to be, originally.  Neil Gaiman only did his voice-over after the show was cancelled, maybe this show should have been Lucifer's mom changing the past so that Chloe wouldn't become a cop, in the hopes that Lucifer would never meet her and then they get together anyway.  This version would mean that Lucifer's mom saved Chloe's dad's life and, as a side effect caused Trixie to not happen.  It would also explain why Lucifer couldn't bring himself to have sex with Charlotte.  The Neil Gaiman version has God killing off Chloe's dad so she joins the police and meets Lucifer and then wondering what would have happened if he had done nothing - surprise, they get together anyway.  God killed Chloe's dad just so she would meet Lucifer sooner!!   

I find it interesting that Chloe can either have her dad alive or she can have Trixie but not both.  I wonder which she would choose...   Just think, if we'd had a series 4 and I was writing for them (unlikely but I can dream) we could have had an episode where Chloe wakes up in the AU with no Trixie and has to travel back in time and shoot her own dad, for the sake of her daughter!!

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This show had some good storylines but didn't seem to know how to execute them this season. They were able to do a decent job for the last 2 seasons. That's what made me think they got new writers or the old writers just didn't care anymore. 

I get that they sold this show as procedural cop show with a supernatural twist, that didn't mean that they had to keep the supernatural stuff to a minimum. For me I was much more interested in seeing Angels and Demons walking around LA then a by the numbers murder of the week. Since they rarely bothered to make those cases interesting. Still think they should've chosen a better actress of Azrael but they also could've done more with her. Lucifer used her blade to kill their brother, why wasn't she asking about that or for her knife back? Why was her only purpose to make Ella and Lucifer friends. She's the Angel of Death she should be more than an imaginary friend for another annoying character. I liked someone's idea of making Ella the Angel of Death. That would've been interesting to see "death" as forensic scientist. 

Why couldn't we meet Lilith, Maze's mother or any one of her thousands of siblings to give her a storyline. I would've loved to see Linda meet the Maze's mother and probably start to understand why Maze is the way she is. Then she would've met the mother of creation and the mother of demons. Then they could've made Maze a daughter of Adam and connected to her Cain's storyline from the beginning since they would half siblings. Instead of doing a dull cliche love triangle. To me it seems they were afraid to go too deep into the mythology. Supernatural on the CW does that and they have been on the air for 100 years.  

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I loved 'em. There were things that bugged me, sure. But damn, it was good to watch just about everybody again. My withdrawal hit me immediately and hard. :)

I agree that Azrael was miscast; I didn't like the actress on House, either. But I'll head-canon that maybe Azrael invented "Smell you later," and it just took awhile to filter down to earth.

Who knew Chloe had some depth? I liked her brazenly false detectiving.

And, of course, Uriel's mustache. I loved that exchange.

I also have a fond fantasy of how Trixie could have been there as Maze's protege, lineage unknown.

Speaking of Maze, this horrified me! 

On 5/29/2018 at 1:50 PM, Rushmoras said:

Oh, boy, did we really see Maze burning a chick's face? Well, then, why didn't ya show this side of her in previous episodes instead of letting her talk about torture. Hmm... AU reality's Lucifer is more like S1 Lucifer, so I liked this ep. But still, a shitty season.

Catch me working at Lux, no way!

I hope Gaiman agreeing to play God is in some way his endorsement of the show continuing (with S1 calibre writing, et al).

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11 hours ago, CuddlerOfDragons said:

 

I find it interesting that Chloe can either have her dad alive or she can have Trixie but not both.  I wonder which she would choose...   Just think, if we'd had a series 4 and I was writing for them (unlikely but I can dream) we could have had an episode where Chloe wakes up in the AU with no Trixie and has to travel back in time and shoot her own dad, for the sake of her daughter!!

 

That is interesting and I wonder if the writers even considered playing that trade off up, probably not. I really wish they could have found some way to use Scarlett Estevez. She could have been Dan's kid or a spoiled child star (or as someone else said a follower of Maze ) It's not like it would throw the audience for a loop seeing her be a completely different kid. If they over used Trixie she probably wouldn't be as likable but they really under used her as along with many other supporting cast members this year. 

Edited by Gigi43.
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On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 7:45 AM, CuddlerOfDragons said:

They have, it was called 'Sliders' where a group of people travel to different AUs each week trying to get back home to their own reality.  There were some really clever versions of planet earth to begin with but it went down hill after a while.  Screened sometime in the 1990s.

Yes, starring Jerry O'Connell. Multiple, parallel universes aren't the same thing as the butterfly effect as there is no cause-and-effect, just infinite random variations. The Simpsons included a butterfly segment in Treehouse of Horror V:  Time and Punishment.

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I remember the show Journeyman with Kevin McKidd about a decade ago featuring a premise like that, where he kept jumping backwards in time for some unknown reason and his actions in the past changed the present.

Having the parallel universe version of Lucifer in an episode is interesting in that I'm pretty sure in the source material there's only one Lucifer (as well as presumably the other assorted angels and such) while the setting has a multitude of parallel Earths that he could interact with. The character used the term multiverse in a standalone graphic novel, and I've seen a story in another DC comic where multiple versions of the same person were showing up in the afterlife as alternate timelines were diverged.

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On 5/30/2018 at 10:31 PM, Ivydoom said:

For me on netflix the description was that Lucifer experiences life if he never met Chloe. So I expected a universe without Chloe at all, not this one where Lucifer's father did not push them to meet and they still met later on. It was confusing. Not what I expected. And maybe I would have liked it more if the description was more accurate.

 

On 5/30/2018 at 5:15 AM, Philip said:

Did I miss something or was the episode  description  writer drunk? I thought it was suppose to be "Mom's Alternate reality."

On 5/31/2018 at 5:40 AM, CuddlerOfDragons said:

I'm thinking that this is what the episode was meant to be, originally.  Neil Gaiman only did his voice-over after the show was cancelled, maybe this show should have been Lucifer's mom changing the past so that Chloe wouldn't become a cop, in the hopes that Lucifer would never meet her and then they get together anyway.  This version would mean that Lucifer's mom saved Chloe's dad's life and, as a side effect caused Trixie to not happen.  It would also explain why Lucifer couldn't bring himself to have sex with Charlotte.  The Neil Gaiman version has God killing off Chloe's dad so she joins the police and meets Lucifer and then wondering what would have happened if he had done nothing - surprise, they get together anyway.  God killed Chloe's dad just so she would meet Lucifer sooner!! 

From fox.com:  Lucifer’s mom creates an alternate dimension, Lucifer now lives in a world where he not only has never met Chloe, but is granted the freedom of choice.

I agree with CuddlerOfDragons that there was a change. Maybe Mom was the original narrator?

On 5/30/2018 at 10:05 PM, Commando Cody said:

There was a show called "Awake" - a few years back - starring Jason Isaacs. It was only on for one season, but I think I read it was based on Sliding Doors - sort of.. or the same concept or something. The main character kept slipping back and forth into alternate realities. 

There were 2 realities.  In one, his wife survived the car accident that killed his son, and in the other, his son survived.  Each morning, he had to confirm which reality he was in based on who was alive, and he didn't want to give up either, for obvious reasons.   He was a detective in both realities, but with different partners.  It was a very moody, stylish show, and only aired 13 episodes.

On 5/31/2018 at 5:40 AM, CuddlerOfDragons said:

I find it interesting that Chloe can either have her dad alive or she can have Trixie but not both.  I wonder which she would choose... 

That would be an "Awake" scenario.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse.
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I looked at the AU episode as showing that Father really does know best. The end game remained the same, Lucifer and Chloe together. But the AU was infinitely worse for most of the secondary characters:

1. Dan remained a dirty cop. Although he might find happiness for a time with Charlotte and Lucy's money, in the end, he will be spending eternity in Hell. The same goes for Charlotte. Her chance for redemption is gone.

2. Even though Chloe gets her father back, no Trixie.

3. Maze continues her demon ways, even recruiting others. She has no possibility of redemption.

4. Linda loses her moral compass and becomes a superficial exploitive TV star instead of helping people

5. Amenadiel stays aloof from understanding humanity and still is afraid to go back to the Silver City because he feels like a failure.

6. Ella works on the wrong side of the law and never brings brightness to the LAPD.

So, at least for the secondary characters, Dad's original plan offers them the best chance for happiness and to get to the Silver City while still putting Lucifer and Chloe together.

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All it takes is the death of Chloe's dad, to make all of these people live better lives.  

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2 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

3. Maze continues her demon ways, even recruiting others. She has no possibility of redemption.

This is the only one I disagree with.  Maze seemed pretty fulfilled.  Does a demon need redemption?

Her problem in the "real" Lucifer show is that her original purpose is gone and she's bored-bounty hunting and making human friends are of some help, but she was created to do what demons do, and the alternate universe allowed her to do just that, even while away from hell.

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4 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

This is the only one I disagree with.  Maze seemed pretty fulfilled.  Does a demon need redemption?

Her problem in the "real" Lucifer show is that her original purpose is gone and she's bored-bounty hunting and making human friends are of some help, but she was created to do what demons do, and the alternate universe allowed her to do just that, even while away from hell.

I'm pretty sure that Lucifer said at one point during the show that she solely exists to protect him. They could have explored that: how much is Maze her own "person" and how much is she bound to Lucifer? If she was created to protect Lucifer, can she really be her own person even if they're on earth? And why doesn't she have to protect Lucifer anymore when all the other laws still apply (angels can't take a human life, for example).

I think the show lost their way in part because they lost track and sight of the characters and their individual stories. Maybe it would have been a good idea for Henderson to keep his focus on the show's characters and their stories instead of his comic's characters. Just saying...

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1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

I'm pretty sure that Lucifer said at one point during the show that she solely exists to protect him. They could have explored that: how much is Maze her own "person" and how much is she bound to Lucifer? If she was created to protect Lucifer, can she really be her own person even if they're on earth? And why doesn't she have to protect Lucifer anymore when all the other laws still apply (angels can't take a human life, for example).

I think the show lost their way in part because they lost track and sight of the characters and their individual stories. Maybe it would have been a good idea for Henderson to keep his focus on the show's characters and their stories instead of his comic's characters. Just saying...

In hell she was performing the duties that hell demons do:  torture humans.  When Lucifer came to earth, she came along to protect him.  Then she got bored.

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1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

In hell she was performing the duties that hell demons do:  torture humans.  When Lucifer came to earth, she came along to protect him.  Then she got bored.

 

Yes, she tortured in hell, and I think she was also Lucifer's "main torturer" if you will. But in S1 he also says that Maze exists to protect him

Quote

Maze: Things change, Lucifer.

Lucifer: Yes, but you don't, Maze. You exist to protect me. To know where I am and who I'm with at all times, whether you want to, or not.

Source: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=391&t=25538

I always took that to mean that Maze was mainly forged to protect the ruler of hell. But I guess, that we're not clear on that proves my point: they could have done more with it and seem to have lost track of the characters.

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On 6/1/2018 at 2:43 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

There were 2 realities.  In one, his wife survived the car accident that killed his son, and in the other, his son survived.  Each morning, he had to confirm which reality he was in based on who was alive, ad he didn't want to give up either, for obvious reasons.   He was a detective in both realities, but with different partners.  It was a very moody, stylish show, and only aired 13 episodes.

That would be an "Awake" scenario.

To tie "Awake" (a awesome show) with "Lucifer"--in each reality he had a therapist (though a different one in each) who tried to convince him the other reality was just a dream or delusion he was having to keep his lost family member with him.  Can you imagine Dr. Linda being two versions of herself, both treating Chloe for her delusions, while knowing Lucifer is the devil, demons are real, and being in love with an angel?  So many lost chances.

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On 31.05.2018 at 5:31 AM, Ivydoom said:

Either way, they still did what they always do in the original universe. And I don't know if I missed anything but where exactly in the timeline is this supposed to take place?

I think the timeline is now, but in an alternate timeline/universe. what I'm trying to say is that, Lucifer was talking to Dan after Lucifer found the body in his club and in their conversation, Lucifer clearly referenced the dead woman in the pilot episode (season 1 episode 1).  Lucifer was saying to Dan that he did not like how Dan closed the case, or that he couldn't close it, can't remember clearly. But it was sure that they had met before, and didn't like each other.

it was funny how Dan referenced Lucifer as a douche-bag, when it was Lucifer who was calling Dan that all the time in the original timeline/universe. I really liked the narrator (God)'s explanations about people being given different choices and becoming different people, but still asking if they are essentially the same person. It's also funny God himself only asks the question and not answer it, as if the answer is different every time or even that he doesn't know.

although not intended, I agree with the idea that it's a fitting finale for the series.

Edited by Lovebug.
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On 5/29/2018 at 6:34 AM, Sakura12 said:

I was thinking more of Malese Jow

On 5/29/2018 at 12:08 PM, Bruinsfan said:

maybe an actress like Natalie Morales would have had the right vibe. Still would have kept up the tradition of the various archangels being of different ethnicities. Or, y'know, just rip off American Horror Story Season 2 and have Frances Conroy reprise the role—she'd have done it with the appropriate gravitas and majesty.

So glad there are no black actresses, of truly different ethnicities, looking for work!

On 5/30/2018 at 7:05 PM, Commando Cody said:

There was a show called "Awake" - a few years back - starring Jason Isaacs. It was only on for one season, but I think I read it was based on Sliding Doors - sort of.. or the same concept or something. The main character kept slipping back and forth into alternate realities. 

On 6/1/2018 at 11:43 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

There were 2 realities.  In one, his wife survived the car accident that killed his son, and in the other, his son survived.  Each morning, he had to confirm which reality he was in based on who was alive, and he didn't want to give up either, for obvious reasons.   He was a detective in both realities, but with different partners.  It was a very moody, stylish show, and only aired 13 episodes.

 

That's the one I thought of as well, but couldn't remember the name.  It was a pretty good show, as I recall.

Edited by jhlipton.
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9 hours ago, jhlipton said:

So glad there are no black actresses, of truly different ethnicities, looking for work!

Since Amenadiel is black and Lucifer white, I'd prefer the other archangels be Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern, Native American, etc. to keep the whole Family of Man thing going (having Uriel also be a white brunette guy was a mistake IMHO). No complaints about TPTB casting a multi-ethnic actress, Charlyne Yi pretty much hits the melting pot bingo. I just thought her specific performance was horribly wrong for the Angel of Death.

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14 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Since Amenadiel is black and Lucifer white, I'd prefer the other archangels be Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern, Native American, etc. to keep the whole Family of Man thing going

It's funny (down right hilarious!) how many shows have black man, but for some reason, having a black woman doesn't fit into the Family of Man.

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If the show put a little more focus on Luci's family drama we could've met more siblings of hopefully different races. 

As an Asian I was happy to see an Asian actress. Since we are usually forgotten in race talk and seem to have our characters white washed. Unless it's martial arts show/movie. Where's an Asian superhero movie? I also have no idea why more Asian's are not cast as vampires we stay practically the same age from 18 - 60. Lol.  People finally think I'm at least college age. I graduated college in 2004. It was the actress that just didn't work for me because she can't act. I suggested Malese Jow because she's a young Asian actress that can play sweet and intimidating if needed. If they wanted to keep the sexy Angel's up, I would've suggested Katrina Law. 

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On ‎06‎.‎06‎.‎2018 at 11:36 AM, Bruinsfan said:

Since Amenadiel is black and Lucifer white, I'd prefer the other archangels be Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern, Native American, etc. to keep the whole Family of Man thing going (having Uriel also be a white brunette guy was a mistake IMHO). No complaints about TPTB casting a multi-ethnic actress, Charlyne Yi pretty much hits the melting pot bingo. I just thought her specific performance was horribly wrong for the Angel of Death.

I definitely agree. It wasn't the actress, it was the quirky-ness and it wasn't even what she said, it was how she said it. I kept thinking "this is not how she should deliver the lines". Her personality was just too far out there to be credible. She seemed too self-conscious and awkward for my taste. If I were dying and she appeared as the Angel of Death I'd have a hard time taking her seriously.

And did they explain when she does and when she doesn't appear and why? Because we've had several deaths with the Angels who could have seen her present and not a glimpse of her (the guy who shot Delilah in the Pilot, Malcolm, Charlotte).

Edited by CheshireCat.
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6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

As an Asian I was happy to see an Asian actress. Since we are usually forgotten in race talk and seem to have our characters white washed. Unless it's martial arts show/movie. Where's an Asian superhero movie? I also have no idea why more Asian's are not cast as vampires we stay practically the same age from 18 - 60. Lol.  People finally think I'm at least college age. I graduated college in 2004. It was the actress that just didn't work for me because she can't act. I suggested Malese Jow because she's a young Asian actress that can play sweet and intimidating if needed. If they wanted to keep the sexy Angel's up, I would've suggested Katrina Law. 

It occurs to me that Rosalind Chao would have done an awesome job as the Angel of Death—she has this kind of somber grace that would be perfect. Though I suppose then the problem would have been on the other foot, buying that she could be a figment of hyperactive woman-child Ella's imagination...

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21 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

 

And did they explain when she does and when she doesn't appear and why? Because we've had several deaths with the Angels who could have seen her present and not a glimpse of her (the guy who shot Delilah in the Pilot, Malcolm, Charlotte).

I'd assume she probably has a pretty hectic schedule and usually just pops up unseen for the soul of the departed.   Lucifer didn't see her in his penthouse until he demanded that she show herself.  And with Amen taking Charlotte's soul to the silver city himself I'm not even sure she bothered to show up for that.

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2 hours ago, Delphi said:

I'd assume she probably has a pretty hectic schedule and usually just pops up unseen for the soul of the departed.   Lucifer didn't see her in his penthouse until he demanded that she show herself.  And with Amen taking Charlotte's soul to the silver city himself I'm not even sure she bothered to show up for that.

I thought he was calling her. There was a "swoosh" sound that sounded a lot like the wings sound before Lucifer said hello, so I assumed that she came in and wasn't there before.

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"small voice" I liked Charlene Yi as Azreal- I don't know, it made me laugh.  If anything I wanted to see her do her Angel of Death thing.  I liked one of the Celestial family being wacky.  I only liked the AU episode because Lucifer felt much more like Season 1 Lucifer.

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Finally caching up. Just started “once upon a time”

here to say that it’s ducking brilliant that Gaiman is god. 

Ill be back after I finish the episode. 

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I wondered by Chloe's hair was so greasy and mashed down on her head for these two episodes.  It was jarring.

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