S06.E02: Tribute 2017.10.19

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

Oliver apologises for leaving William alone to go do his Green Arrow thing and says he was wrong to which William says that Raisa told him that it was hard for Oliver to admit he was wrong. Oliver then precedes to tell him that he thinks he's figured out a way to spend more time with him. Then William asks him if he wants to play his game with him. Oliver is touched. Oliver asks how do you play. William tells him that he doesn't know he just mashes buttons.

Thanks!! I didn’t know if it was a pivotal moment. But it does sound like they are coming together. 

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568 people working at Channel 52? How big is Star City? Isn't that a lot of people?

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When Curtis was asking Felicity if they could identify the background of the photo to determine where it was taken, was I the only one thinking- "How hard could it be to narrow down? You've only got like 4 different sets on this show." (/^▽^)/

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On another note, anyone have any guesses on where this Rene/coughing thing is headed? He had a rather noticeable cough he was trying to hide in the hospital in the premiere, and when he first entered the Mayoral chambers this episode he coughed. It's possible it is just some kind of reference to his injuries in the first episode, but I think it's more likely them trying to subtly foreshadow a storyline with his character. Maybe he also sustained some kind of injury on the island that he's concealing from Team Arrow and it will lead to some sort of deathbed confession with his daughter? Dunno.

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Due to Digs hiding his pain, I get the feeling he is going to get seriously injured or die as the Green Arrow in some embarrassing fashion.

I also think the FBI agent is shady. She probably works for the group that leaked the picture.

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20 hours ago, statsgirl said:

On another note, what happened to Palmer Tech?  Felicity's severance package may have run out but doesn't she own a lot of shares in the company that Ray left her?  She should be getting money from that unless the Board ran the company into the ground.

19 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Shhh. Don’t think so hard. 

 

As we learned from Legends of Tomorrow, Felicity ran the company into the ground before the board stepped in. More importantly, we learned that the writers on all of the Berlanti superhero shows have no clue how businesses, corporations, boards, stocks and shares, and assets work or don't think the audience knows how they work. We do, which is why they should refrain from writing about business entirely. You would think that season 2 of Arrow would be reason enough.

Edited by HunterHunted.

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28 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

As we learned from Legends of Tomorrow, Felicity ran the company into the ground before the board stepped in. More importantly, we learned that the writers on all of the Berlanti superhero shows have no clue how businesses, corporations, boards, stocks and shares, and assets work or don't think the audience knows how they work. We do, which is why they should refrain from writing about business entirely. You would think that season 2 would be reason enough.

How exactly could Felicity run Palmer Tech into the ground if she was asked to step down from the company right after she produced an invention which actually saved the company?

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19 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

How exactly could Felicity run Palmer Tech into the ground if she was asked to step down from the company right after she produced an invention which actually saved the company?

I know, but Ray's boss at Tinder UpSwipz said Felicity ran the company into the ground. Perhaps the new invention wasn't enough to pull the company out of freefall. But the collapse of Palmer Tech was bad enough that Ray is working as a computer programmer for knockoff Tinder.

Edited by HunterHunted.

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They also don't know how to write legal or medical stuff..it might get hard to write the show if we limit them to the things they know, lol

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28 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I know, but Ray's boss at Tinder UpSwipz said Felicity ran the company into the ground. Perhaps the new invention wasn't enough to pull the company out of freefall. But the collapse of Palmer Tech was bad enough that Ray is working as a computer programmer for knockoff Tinder.

Man those Palmer tech guys Legends writers are serious 💩's for blaming their own ineffectiveness on the woman who ran the company for five minutes during which the whole time they were manuevering to kick her out. Typical male wounded egos. I hope the real reason Palmer Tech was 'ran into the ground' was that Felicity's company destroyed it :P 

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I finally have internet and watched it!

I didn't mind Curtis in this ep actually and do not wish death on him (yet). I was dreading the Felicity asking him to work together thing but to me she just sounded really excited about the fact that they could sit around and invent stuff together so I didn't take offence to it. I do think they are trying to hitch Curtis onto this Smoak Industries storyline but in this instance I can see why two brains can be useful so it's not annoying me as much as I expected it to. I look at it like Harry from E2 on Flash who worked with Cisco for a season.

The "Recoding of Felicity's algorithm" I'm going to take as something like code review. Sometimes hubby spends hours obsessing over code and his colleague will see something he missed the next day. Sometimes he'll swoop in to save his colleague. This is my head canon. They review each other's code and even geniuses need it.  

I actually watched the Dinah stuff. I didn't get offended either. I just don't care about her enough to break a sweat. I only watched because she annoyed some of you guys so much so I wanted to test and see if she would annoy me. Just didn't care. I will say this though, both BC's are pretty angry and sour! They might want to work on that! I've seen cartoon BC and she seems to have a sense of humour. Didn't strike me as a humorless shrew. I'm baffled as to why the onscreen ones are so disagreeable.

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I actually don't really have a problem with Curtis and Felicity working together and that scene was actually cute. For me, it's all the team tech stuff that Felicity used to handle solo suddenly always needing Curtis' input that bugs. I'm hoping if they're actually working together that will die off somewhat since I think it's at least partially not knowing where to put Curtis once they dumped PT.

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Speaking of Curtis, they really slid in that news about the divorce on the down low, like no sweat. Paul really wanted that divorce badly. 

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If they didn’t have Curtis doing things Felicity has done/should be doing with the team and correcting/helping her (especially when I don’t think we’ve seen her help/correct him that I can remember), I would probably be 100% for them working together outside of the team. 

Instead, now I’m wondering if that “Mr. Terrific and Overwatch”/“Overwatch and Mr. Terrific” is foreshadowing them naming a company, i.e., whose name is going to go first/who’s going to be considered more important?

Edited by insomniadreams88.

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11 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

568 people working at Channel 52? How big is Star City? Isn't that a lot of people?

It is.  I’ve worked in both local TV and radio, and the largest station I know of only has around 100 employees. Granted, I’m not in a huge market - but logistically I can’t imagine how even a NY or LA station would need that many people. Although, that one reporter is apparently on air 24/7 to provide plot points, so who knows... I guess add News Media to the list of industries that the writers don’t “get.”

 

As for the photo itself, it would’ve been nice if they could have explained exactly why it was a fake - maybe show that Ollie’s face was from a different picture or something.  Also, I half expected them to reveal that Buddy Myson had somehow sent it to the news - because that’s exactly the kind of dumb idea this show comes up with these days.

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That photograph was so not a fake -- the show wasn't even trying because it was an old still. When I heard that Felicity had Curtis had found  way to prove it's a fake, I thought they had faked the information because the photo was real.

10 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I know, but Ray's boss at Tinder UpSwipz said Felicity ran the company into the ground. Perhaps the new invention wasn't enough to pull the company out of freefall. But the collapse of Palmer Tech was bad enough that Ray is working as a computer programmer for knockoff Tinder.

That "ran the company into the ground" was probably a joke that the LoT writers made and they thought they were oh so clever.  Instead it created the opportunity for more anger on the part of Felicity fans and justification for those that want to hate her.

Felicity was running PT for 7 months, 11 if you include months over the hiatus when the Board didn't let her do anything.  It's impossible to run a multi-billion dollar company into the ground in that time, especially with that Board who wouldn't let her spend a penny she coudn't justify.  It took the fools in charge of Sears years to kill the company.

If you want to deconstruct it, how did they prove that Ray was still alive?  And since they did, there must have been some assets still left that he could have claimed.  He also would have had a personal fortune, his real estate properties, jewelry, paintings etc.  There would have been no need for him to work in a low level tech job.

Stupid, stupid joke on LoT.

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13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

That "ran the company into the ground" was probably a joke that the LoT writers made and they thought they were oh so clever.  Instead it created the opportunity for more anger on the part of Felicity fans and justification for those that want to hate her.

Felicity was running PT for 7 months, 11 if you include months over the hiatus when the Board didn't let her do anything.  It's impossible to run a multi-billion dollar company into the ground in that time, especially with that Board who wouldn't let her spend a penny she coudn't justify.  It took the fools in charge of Sears years to kill the company.

If you want to deconstruct it, how did they prove that Ray was still alive?  And since they did, there must have been some assets still left that he could have claimed.  He also would have had a personal fortune, his real estate properties, jewelry, paintings etc.  There would have been no need for him to work in a low level tech job.

Stupid, stupid joke on LoT.

Exactly. This is why I've said above that these shows just need to stop writing about business and money. They don't know what they are doing. And whenever they write about these subjects, it's so bad that it's distracting. On Lot, they wanted Ray in a bad headspace so that he'd rush back to the Legends. They could have done that without him being broke. He could have been back at Palmer Tech and bored. He could be at another company and fixated on shrinking things to the detriment of the other research. There is a way to get Ray where they wanted without blaming Felicity or writing stupidly.

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13 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

It is.  I’ve worked in both local TV and radio, and the largest station I know of only has around 100 employees. Granted, I’m not in a huge market - but logistically I can’t imagine how even a NY or LA station would need that many people. Although, that one reporter is apparently on air 24/7 to provide plot points, so who knows... I guess add News Media to the list of industries that the writers don’t “get.”

While I'm sure the real answer is because they don't understand news media any more than they do business, medicine or the law, I can rationalize this as Star City has such a high mortality rate and tendency toward massive terrorist events the only news network in the city probably needs a lot of backup reporters and tech people because they keep getting killed in the field.

Edited by KirkB.

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On 10/19/2017 at 9:26 PM, WindofChange said:

I think you'd hate yourself if she ever came back :p But also I think both Dinah and Curtis need to go. They're pointless, are boring, and imo are annoying AF. 

If it was up to me Team Arrow would be Oliver, Dig, Felicity, and Thea.

Even number of sexes and the cast of characters isn't to bloated.

Blowing up the island would have been the perfect time to clean house but, no.

Edited by FortKnox.

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On 10/20/2017 at 9:54 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

On another note, anyone have any guesses on where this Rene/coughing thing is headed? He had a rather noticeable cough he was trying to hide in the hospital in the premiere, and when he first entered the Mayoral chambers this episode he coughed. It's possible it is just some kind of reference to his injuries in the first episode, but I think it's more likely them trying to subtly foreshadow a storyline with his character. Maybe he also sustained some kind of injury on the island that he's concealing from Team Arrow and it will lead to some sort of deathbed confession with his daughter? Dunno.

I don't think the coughing is headed anywhere.  I suspect the actor is just doing it as a call back to his collapsed lung kind of like he's the only character that has ever had a lasting scar on the face after an injury.  I'm guessing it's just the actor's way of maintaining his realism.  

21 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I know, but Ray's boss at Tinder UpSwipz said Felicity ran the company into the ground. Perhaps the new invention wasn't enough to pull the company out of freefall. But the collapse of Palmer Tech was bad enough that Ray is working as a computer programmer for knockoff Tinder.

Ray's boss was also an idiot that was soo in love with his dating app he couldn't' see the potential in being the company to bring to market the ability to actually temporarily shrink living material.  He's kind of the unreliable narrator in this, like he probably had his facts about Palmer Tech sucking right but not who was actually to blame since it was sitting pretty financially when they fired Felicity.  They got rid of her before she could enact her program to sell the chip cheap.  But I do really hate that's the only info out there about what happened to the company. I mean, does that mean all those employees that both Oliver and Felicity kept trying to keep employed all lost their jobs now?   I know they don't have the sets anymore but it's a big plot hole to let dangle.  We know it would matter to them both so it's so weird we aren't supposed to care.  

 

Quote

Wait. Barry gave the kid this Flash backpack? A, when? Barry just got back. And B, Passive aggressive much, Barry, what with giving the kid your logo and not his father's?

The Flash says Barry came back after being gone for SIX months and Arrow started up after only FIVE months so by that, Barry couldn't have given William the backpack.  But interestingly, the show doesn't say he did.  Oliver says it was a gift from a friend.  So either someone else picked out the backpack and gave to Oliver to give to Willaim (Cisco? Rene? Felicity?) or (and this is my personal headcanon) at some point in the past, Barry gave OLIVER for no particular reason a Flash backpack, lol.  And then Oliver gave it to William. 

William beating it up and saying Superheroes don't save anyone makes more sense in the context that Barry wouldn't have yet returned to Central City by the timeline we were given.  So then he'd be not just disillusioned with the Green Arrow but also The Flash not even being around since his mom died.  He'd have no faith left in Superheroes.    

Edited by BkWurm1.

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I've tried to think about what about this episode bugged me so much. I didn't hate Oliver and William. I liked the FBI lady.   Didn't hate Rene except to resent that he got to be in a bunch of Oliver scenes while Felicity kept out of the main plots for the most part.  Otherwise, he was funny.  Still loved Anatoly and I love that Lance got to do stuff without being dumb this week.  I didn't really even find her banter with Curtis annoying and I'm resigned to them starting a company together.

Really the only things I didn't like were Diggle keeping the secret for no good reason and Dinah being more pissy than concerned for the second week in a row.  So Dinah, is an on going concern and I understandably don't like Diggle carrying the idiot stick just for the sake of drama.  But the episode still bothered me more than the sum of its parts. 

I think it comes down to tone and how Felicity was used, or rather was NOT used in this episode.  I didn't hate Felicity and Curtis's banter or the C (or was it D?) plot leading to them starting a business together, but nearly every scene Felicity had felt wildly out of place when we have Diggle falling apart in the field and Oliver having a parenting crisis on top of the threat of his identity being exposed, an FBI investigation, and Anatoly turning against him.  Felicity is allowed to express concern a couple times about the threat of Oliver being exposed but only indirectly.  Once as a general worry about what would happen to the rest of the team (herself included) and once advising Oliver to have a lawyer.  But otherwise, she's not a part of any of these large, personal and emotional storylines involving the two people she should be most involved with on the show.

 We can say she's oblivious to what's happening with Diggle since she's not in the field and he might be keeping it from her since he'd assume she'd go right to Oliver but then we still have all of Oliver's woes and yet Felicity doesn't get to express any kind of personal concern or connection to what Oliver is going through.  We know she's not oblivious to the threat of exposure or Anatoly or the FBI investigation and we know she's kept in the loop where everyone goes, so she'd know Oliver is having issues with William, but none of that colored her storyline this week.  Haha time with Felicity and Curtis felt really, really off when so much was going on.    

And sidelining her from both of those stories makes it a lot harder for me to connect emotionally to them.  And therefore, that much harder for me to emotionally invest in the show.    So what could have been a meaty episode became really pretty blah to me.  Felicity didn't think anything going on during the episode was worth getting excited about, so why should I?

Yes, I should connect through Oliver and Diggle, but Diggle only has Dinah to express his emotional state through and she's been abrasive enough that like Diggle, I'm not letting my guard down enough to let myself feel anything but defensive and with Oliver, frankly, SA isn't an expressive enough actor to do it for me unless he's paired with like DR, EBR, or PB.  Oliver and William's scenes haven't been enough on their own to get me there emotionally.  I need him paired with another actor that can help me care and his talk with Rene might have been fine but I just don't care about Rene enough for that to have worked.  I felt the emotions last week when he confided in Lance, but I can't really remember anything from his chat with Rene other than he told her daughter she came from a cloud and he thought lying to kids was normal. 

Really, the big issue is Felicity should already be the one that Oliver is turing to but they are doing their best to put that off.  I'm hopeful this was the last week where that will happen, but when they don't give Oliver and Felicity at least a moment to connect in the episode, frankly everything feels off.  There's only so much suspension of disbelief I can buy.  And all these big issues for Oliver to be grappling with and all Felicity gets to do in the episode is tech stuff and an ignored bit of advice to get a lawyer?  It's frustrating.    

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I'm having the same concerns, @BkWurm1. Even though she had her own plot going on, Felicity still feels pretty segregated for some reason and I can't fully figure out why? Maybe it's because she's only allowed to interact with Curtis and in the more ensemble scenes she's just there throwing out general info and not really connected to the main plot or what's happening with other characters. I'm not saying she has to be connected every single episode but some passing lines about what's happening to others wouldn't go amiss. 

Felicity actually hasn't had any solo scenes with Quentin or Diggle in forever and in Rene's and Dinah's case, never. It's starting to feel like they're intentionally keeping her away from everyone else and sticking her in a box, just like the fanboys wanted. I'm a little frustrated tbh. I just hope it's not like this all season. 

Edited by Angel12d.

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That has bothered me as well,keeping Felicity away from Digg's and Oliver's storylines this episode and in a totally different tone with Curtis.Which is why I dislike Curtis and Felicity dynamic,everything turns into a buddy comedy and it gets to be too much and not fit into what's happening kinda like Ray and Felicity back in season 3.But I also think that's a consequence of the show dragging out those plots.Digg is talking to Dinah rn because it's not time for him to be honest or accept his issues and resolve them just like Felicity did with Rory at the start of her helix arc and they saved the ota,olicity stuff for the end.

And Felicity is being kept from Oliver and William issues because they want to drag out olicity until a later episode even when it makes sense she's the one to talk to Oliver and be more involved.

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I can see why we didn't have a scene of Felicity talking to Diggle yet. For plot reasons he needs to suddenly keep secrets and only talk to Dinah and we know that Felicity would urge him to tell the truth, which wouldn't give them a story. I can also see why we didn't have a scene of Oliver confiding in Felicity about giving up GA for a while because that would've given away the supposed "shock" ending. (Oliver not including Felicity in big decisions was one of their problems before but whatever. Guess we'll just ignore that.)

The trouble is it's pushing Felicity further to the sidelines. And it does start to look a bit suspicious when everyone else has had "bonding" scenes with the newer characters - everyone except Felicity. Both Rene and Dinah have had scenes with Diggle, Oliver, Quentin etc. But apparently Felicity isn't allowed the same? It's very weird, IMO. IDGI. 

(I didn't include Curtis in this because I don't want to. Haha.)

Edited by Angel12d.

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18 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 

That photograph was so not a fake -- the show wasn't even trying because it was an old still. When I heard that Felicity had Curtis had found  way to prove it's a fake, I thought they had faked the information because the photo was real.

 

Oh absolutely- that would have worked too. Personally, I do prefer the “fake photo” answer- I feel that creates fewer loose threads than the alternative. But then, don’t give us a picture that’s obviously real! I know the effects budget is tight, but sit an intern down with photoshop and have them whip something up. Either way though, they needed to explain it- because what they actually showed doesn’t make sense.

Edited by Chyromaniac.

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On 10/20/2017 at 3:59 PM, leopardprint said:

My overall issue with the presence of the Myson storyline is kind of represented by Oliver asking Diggle to take over. Myson is the most important thing to Oliver, so Oliver making great sacrifices makes sense however he is not the most important person to Diggle that it's acceptable for his kid to possibly lose their father while it's not for Myson. Not interested in seeing everyone dump everything to accommodate Oliver's parenting woes. 

It's different.  If Oliver dies, William is an orphan who has lost both parents.  If Diggle dies, his kid still has a spare parent to take care of him.

 

The solution is clearly to get back with Felicity and marry her so that William has a new mommy to take care of him in case anything happens to Oliver.

Edited by RobertDeSneero.

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Did I mishear, or did they mention "The Human Target" - a master of disguise?

 

I know the TV show "Human Target" was based on a DC character, so was this a possible connection?

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It's the same character, although played by a different actor. He showed up last year, when the Vigilante was gunning down Oliver.

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3 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

It's different.  If Oliver dies, William is an orphan who has lost both parents.  If Diggle dies, his kid still has a spare parent to take care of him.

The solution is clearly to get back with Felicity and marry her so that William has a new mommy to take care of him in case anything happens to Oliver.

Or they could send him now to his grandparents, who he probably is more familiar with than the vigilante dude he met a little more than a year ago and found out is his father 5 months ago.

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I wonder what kid would go "yeah I lost my dad, whatever, my mom is alive".........John's kid is younger and is also a black boy in today's US..he needs his father.

Edited by Midnight Lullaby.

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I don't think this has been translated well on screen, but I don't believe that the reasoning here is that it would be less of a tragedy if John got killed in action. This isn't season 1 Oliver who was going into the field fully expecting to be dead after righting Robert's wrongs. His state of mind isn't that he's going into those warehouses and alleys to get killed, he even has a team to prevent that. It's not about one life being more valuable than another, whether we're speaking about fathers or sons here. The gist of it is that John presumably has a well-adjusted kid who feels safe with his parents even if dangerous jobs are part of their every day life. William on another had is traumatised by the death of his mother and being kidnapped by psychos two years in a row. He's also stuck living with his biological father who he doesn't know in the aftermath of all this. It's a messed up situation even without Oliver's night time job. 

To sum up, I don't think Oliver's reasoning here is to keep himself safe, he may very well get hit by a car when crossing the street. It's removing another stress factor for William until he feels more secure with him generally, and not lying to him in the interim.

On another note, speaking of jobs makes me hope that Felicity offers employment to Dig if her company moves out of the loft and grows. Come on, head of security.

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I'm talking about the argument that even I guess John dies it doesn't matter that much because Lyla is alive.

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2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I don't understand, who made that argument?

I was adding my thoughts after I read the post @SmallScreenDiva replied to. It's right above mine.

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4 hours ago, bijoux said:

To sum up, I don't think Oliver's reasoning here is to keep himself safe, he may very well get hit by a car when crossing the street. It's removing another stress factor for William until he feels more secure with him generally, and not lying to him in the interim.

I agree that this is probably what the show was going for but I think it still comes across somewhat as Oliver asking Diggle to do something he's not willing to do (risk himself with a child at home) and that Digg is more disposable. I think this is also supposed to demonstrate the new trusting Oliver that he would ask Diggle to do something so important to him but I think a better way would have been to have Digg volunteer and tie it back to his overall state of mind then they would have avoided these icky undertones. 

Perhaps I'm jumping ahead though and they will treat Digg saying yes as problematic and overly willing to take excessive risks due to his mindset. 

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I don't think Oliver thinks that Diggle is more disposable -- I think Oliver wasn't thinking at all about what it means for Diggle to suit up as the Green Arrow.

He's come a long way but Oliver is still very self-centred at times.

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8 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I'm talking about the argument that even I guess John dies it doesn't matter that much because Lyla is alive.

It's not that it doesn't matter.  It's that William is harmed more by losing his only parent than another child is harmed by losing one out of two parents.  Society needs people to hold dangerous jobs such as policeman or soldier or armed vigilante.  If a child has two parents holding such jobs, maybe the responsible thing would be to have them be in separate fields where the child isn't at risk of losing both parents in one fell swoop.

I think that if Lyla had died, Oliver would have considered trying to bench Diggle and put him in a non-combat support role.

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42 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

It's not that it doesn't matter.  It's that William is harmed more by losing his only parent than another child is harmed by losing one out of two parents.  Society needs people to hold dangerous jobs such as policeman or soldier or armed vigilante.  If a child has two parents holding such jobs, maybe the responsible thing would be to have them be in separate fields where the child isn't at risk of losing both parents in one fell swoop.

I think that if Lyla had died, Oliver would have considered trying to bench Diggle and put him in a non-combat support role.

I don't think you can know that..there are more and less fragile children..it's impossible to know the result of losing a parent on a child. It's also impossible to predict how William would handle losing Oliver that he is starting to feel close to only now..it's people we are talking here..

I don't think Oliver is the boss of Diggle up to this point to be honest, lol.

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2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't think you can know that..there are more and less fragile children..it's impossible to know the result of losing a parent on a child. It's also impossible to predict how William would handle losing Oliver that he is starting to feel close to only now..it's people we are talking here..

I don't think Oliver is the boss of Diggle up to this point to be honest, lol.

It’s not Oliver’s responsibility to consider JJ’s needs. It’s Dig’s. If he thinks being the GA poses too much of a risk of leaving his son fatherless then he can tell Oliver no. He puts his life in danger as Spartan. He re-enlisted in the Army not so long ago. Clearly, there are some things that he, like many real life police/firefighters/armed forces members, prioritizes over the potential of leaving his child fatherless.  At the moment, Oliver’s priorities are different. 

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30 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

It’s not Oliver’s responsibility to consider JJ’s needs. It’s Dig’s. If he thinks being the GA poses too much of a risk of leaving his son fatherless then he can tell Oliver no. He puts his life in danger as Spartan. He re-enlisted in the Army not so long ago. Clearly, there are some things that he, like many real life police/firefighters/armed forces members, prioritizes over the potential of leaving his child fatherless.  At the moment, Oliver’s priorities are different. 

That sentence you highlighted was referred to "I think that if Lyla had died, Oliver would have considered trying to bench Diggle and put him in a non-combat support role." The rest was about the comparison between the trauma the two kids would have to face that for me can't be made because children react to trauma differently, it's not so easy to judge. But it was between us viewers, we weren't talking about Oliver's or Diggle's thoughts.

About it not being Oliver's responsibility though..sure but I wouldn't be able to rationalize it that easily..even though the decision isn't mine I'd definitely worry about my friend's son if I had to ask a dangerous favor. I think the show simplifies things because it can't focus on everything but if it focused on Oliver's thoughts and feelings I could see him thinking about JJ too..it's people he cares about. Oliver is the same guy who didn't want Diggle in the field when baby Sara was born.

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On 10/20/2017 at 7:48 AM, way2interested said:

This was what was happening while I was watching with my sister (who isn't privy to spoilers):

Sister: Shoot him!!! Shoot him!!!

Anatoly: Don't bluff. We both know you won't kill me.

Sister: HE DOESN'T HAVE TO, JUST SHOOT HIM IN THE LEG.

*Anatoly walks off*

Sister: Great, I know what the midseason plot is.

I had something similar when Anatoly first showed up, I don't remember the exact exchange but it was something like this:

Oliver: These are legitimate businessmen!

Anatoly: I am legitimate businessman, unless you know something a mayor should not know?

Oliver: *Sits there with his mouth open like an idiot.*

Me: Even an ordinary joe would know that legitimate businessmen don't have a bunch of thugs with machine guns shooting thousands of rounds into a van!

On 10/20/2017 at 9:05 AM, tv echo said:

Oliver also kept secret from William that he was the Green Arrow. Apparently, just like with Felicity in S4, Oliver doesn't consider lying by omission to be lying.

Which is hell of ironic considering that Oliver and Felicity broke up precisely because Oliver did exactly that to her, yet she did it herself.

Oh, and it doesn't matter if anybody notices the Green Arrow has suddenly become a black guy, any more than if they made it Thea or Felicity or whoever, though if they were looking to keep everybody from telling the difference of the members of the team Rene would probably work best since it would be a lot harder to notice it's a different guy at night with him than it would with a woman or black guy. The point was to find somebody to take over for Oliver because he wants to retire so he can be there for William, whether anybody notices or cares that the Green Arrow isn't the same guy isn't the point anymore. Though, I'd much rather they had introduced a new character for Oliver to train to take over if it weren't for the fact that the show has way too many characters already. I'll also bet that William is the one who ends up shaking Oliver out of it and getting him back to being GA again. As for Diggle's condition Diggle stupidly still didn't tell him about it (though Oliver really should have picked up on that already) and the fact that he has his own family that's Diggle's decision to make, just as it was Oliver's to give up being the Green Arrow for William's sake, Diggle is free to reject the offer though he obviously won't. I'd say it would make no sense for Lyla to have a problem with it either, and who's to say he doesn't discuss it with her now that it's on the table?

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4 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Though, I'd much rather they had introduced a new character for Oliver to train to take over if it weren't for the fact that the show has way too many characters already. I'll also bet that William is the one who ends up shaking Oliver out of it and getting him back to being GA again.

It makes sense for it to be William who gets him back because Oliver quit because William was having trouble dealing with the fact that his sole surviving parent was risking his life every night and William could be an orphan at any time.  William being able to accept that means that Oliver could go back out again.

I think they didn't bring in someone new because Oliver is soon going to go back to being the Green Arrow again. It is his show.

I know that Diggle is African-American but I think he's the best choice to sub for Oliver.  He's big and bulky, which Rene isn't, and it's dark at night and he's hooded so it may not be so noticable about his skin colour.

4 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

As for Diggle's condition Diggle stupidly still didn't tell him about it (though Oliver really should have picked up on that already) and the fact that he has his own family that's Diggle's decision to make, just as it was Oliver's to give up being the Green Arrow for William's sake, Diggle is free to reject the offer though he obviously won't. I'd say it would make no sense for Lyla to have a problem with it either, and who's to say he doesn't discuss it with her now that it's on the table?

I can understand why Diggle didn't tell Oliver about his condition -- he's a guy and it's hard to admit to a weakness especially when your brother is asking  you for help.

Lyla may well be okay with Johnny suiting up -- in the Suicide Squad episode after their wedding they talked about never being on the same team again so Baby Sara would have at least one parent so she's used to them being in danger.  But it's still partly her decision because they are married and co-parenting.

I wonder if the writers realize that it's hypocritical of Oliver to ask Diggle to put his son in danger of losing a father while Oliver steps back so his son can keep his.  I suspect that they don't, but if they do, I expect one of the characters to mention it down the line.

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44 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I was really happy to have mention of Thea in this episode, which I chose to interpret to mean that she'll be waking up sooner rather than later. But it brings another thing to mind. How did they explain her coma to the world? For some reason unknown to me, they made up a story about Samantha dying in a car crash, instead of just tweaking what really happened. Namely, Chase held a grudge against the mayor and that was why he kidnapped his secret son and his BM. So, what then is the explanation behind Thea sustaining injuries that put her in a coma at the exact same time? She was driving the car?

This was brought up in 603 Next of Kin thread but it reminds me of something they said in this episode.  We haven't been told what happened to Thea (the official cover story) but Samanda aka FBI lady told us that Samantha's death was listed as a car crash but that there was NO BODY and all they had to go on was an autopsy report.  

So they left William's mom's body on the island??????  

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I imagine thye brought the body back and buried her somewhere William can visit, only said there was no body because her injuries weren't consistent with a car crash. It still doesn't explain how she was even pronounced legally dead without a body! She should be listed as missing after six months, shouldn't she?

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I assumed that they had Dr. Schwartz declare her dead but I have no idea what they could have claimed happened to her body after that. Maybe she was cremated, or they at least claimed she was?

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I wondered about the Samantha/William situation. Oliver suddenly produces a 12 year old that he never knew about fathered when he was in a relationship with his deputy's daughter (dead) and says his mother's also dead and he'll be looking after him. Presumably he also had to deal with William's distraught grandparents who might never even have known Oliver was his father and might have wanted custody/been in Samantha's will to do so. Then at the same time his sister is in a long term coma with another cover story. Oliver was very snarky at the press in this episode but he really shouldn't be considering the could have treated that like the 2nd sinking of the Gambit for juicy scandal. 

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