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S03.E10: Lantern 2017.06.19

I will say it bugged me that the episode title so clearly telegraphed what would happen with Chuck, although I didn't anticipate suicide.

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2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think Howard was trying to preserve the firm's reputation by making it appear that Chuck was voluntarily retiring.  Only the partners knew of the threatened lawsuits.  Even Chuck ultimately did not want to destroy what he had built once he knew that he was being bought out so he went along with the charade up to a point.

I think that she finally realized that if she didn't take a break, she would be caught up on the crazy cycle of all work/no sleep, and the same thing would likely happen again.  She is giving herself time to heal, and then she will return to her simplified practice.  She still loves the law.

She clearly needs time to heal, but I got the feeling she could have quickly wrapped up the Gatwood matter and then rested up.  Francesca seemed very surprised that she chose to blow it off, though that could also be because she knows what a driven workaholic Kim is (was).  The Atticus Finch talk makes me think she is disillusioned with the type of law she is practicing and wants to do something more "important".  

It was interesting that Jimmy said he never had an interest in  fighting the good fight or changing the world and said, "That was more of a Chuck thing."  I think this shows something of a shallowness in Jimmy and perhaps shows that Chuck might have once been a much better man than the one we see.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I will say it bugged me that the episode title so clearly telegraphed what would happen with Chuck, although I didn't anticipate suicide.

That did strike me as fairly heavy handed for this show.  I didn't know how it would happen since Chuck started out the episode with the lights still on, but I found myself waiting all episode for one of his lanterns to cause a fire.  I didn't anticipate suicide either.  I thought it would be accidentally tipped and set papers ablaze like Jimmy seemed to be predicting when he had Mike take the photos inside the house.  So the fire itself manages to be somewhat anticlimactic. 

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I think the Chuck stuff was telegraphing to us at bottom that Chuck, without goals or opposition scenarios to give his life meaning, currently deemed he had no reason to live.  It seemed pretty clear from Michael McKean's mental process showed in action, that writing in the diary scene after Chuck had lost any chance at going back to the firm, terminated in Chuck mentally saying "Fuck it".  He had literally lost the will to live.  I also don't think he ever regretted what he said to Jimmy; he telegraphed none of that.  I think he meant it.  If he had a moment of remorse, we never saw it.

Edited by queenanne.
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Seriously -- save everyone time and anguish...THROW that Emmy at McKean NOW!  He was just transcendent this season -- it's really difficult to portray 'pants-on-head' crazy as understatedly as he did...as well as to put your character is a situation that should have been filled with such sympathy from the audience, yet it appears most of us were, rightfully so, thinking 'ya did this to yourself, jackass.'  This season has just been a shining light for McKean, and I hope he gets his work rewarded.

Jimmy...oh,Jimmy....I am kinda glad you redeemed yourself with sweet Irene.  And my guess is that is the last bit of humanity we will see from Jimmy/Saul. 

This just CAN'T be the end -- I need a season!  I need to find out what happens to Kim and her Ponytail of Determination!  I need to see Saul take his new Cadillac through A1 Car Wash and have a token given to him for his car wash professional by Walter White!  I need to see Mike do....anything Mike does!

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In one of the final scenes of the mini-series Hatfields & McCoys, they imply that Randall McCoy died in a house fire. They show him catching on fire by accident, and then they cut to an exterior shot of his cabin while he screams. The real Randall McCoy was severely injured in a house fire and died a few days later in hospital.  

 

5 hours ago, knaankos said:

I don't understand why Jimmy forfeited the Sand Piper money to amend things with Irene. It feels like a massive step back in the story.

Remember when he didn't take any money from that suitcase in season 1 and then he tells Mike he will never do that again? Well seems like he did it again. The conversion to Saul, everything done this season seems like it all meant nothing by his actions this episode. So does that mean that it'll be Chuck's death that sets him toward Saul eventually? If so, then this season was a complete waste. One big stall. 

I think he did it for Kim. In a post for last week's episode someone referred to The Gift of the Magi, in that both Jimmy and Kim were killing themselves to make life easier for the other. (Jimmy was killing himself in the moral sense by torturing Irene.) In this episode they each decided choose to stop killing themselves and face the future straight up. It is quite heartwarming to think of it this way. 

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Although I really don't want to see Chuck back on the show because the relationship and that story has been played out and done to death, I am curious what happened between he and his wife. 

With his relationship with Jimmy and now Howard over, he pretty much has no one in his life.  ANd he pushed them away himself.  I am wondering if that is what happened with his wife as well. 

7 hours ago, Diamond Dog said:

Some random thoughts about the finale:

 

I'm actually like Howard now. He finally got rid of Chuck. Kim's words may have finally sunk in. 

Chuck telling Jimmy that he never meant much to him was like a knife to the heart. By far, one of the best scenes of the night. I immediately said out loud, "That was cold-blooded."

Sweet Irene. I hate what Jimmy did that to her. Anyone who scams the elderly is a POS. 

Kim is the last and final piece to Jimmy McGill. When he loses her, he'll no longer have a conscience, or a reason to care about anyone. 

Michael Mando stole the season with his incredible acting. May he win an Emmy for his role in BCS

Chuck final descent into madness was disturbing. Even though he was  a character I never truly liked; I have great empathy for someone who suffers from mental illness. 

He did not really scam Irene.  In fact if not for him, she would not be in a position to get a large pay out from the legal case.  But he certainly used her and destroyed her friendships. 

I can't imagine CHuck not having a will or that he left a penny of his money to Jimmy.  Probably left it all to electromagnetic sensitivity research. 

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I hope Howard but a stop payment on that check he gave Chuck.

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6 minutes ago, benteen said:

I hope Howard but a stop payment on that check he gave Chuck.

Ha!

Funny - you just know that Chuck would have an excruciatingly detailed will. I can only imagine what it would read like. "And let not one dime of my estate pass to my ne'er do well brother James."

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8 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Peter Gould said on Talking Saul that they really like Michael McKean and they haven't even started on Season 4 and there're always the possibility of flashbacks.  Vince Gilligan also pointed out that we know there's no Kim Wexler in BB so at some point she's going to have to leave Jimmy. 

In an interview Rhea did before the finale, she agreed with the interviewer (Sepinwall?) that since we never see Saul at home on BB, maybe Kim is there and still with him. Of course an actor's hopes don't necessarily match the plans of the writers.

 

7 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I also believe there were significant character missteps with Jimmy and Kim.  Jimmy was too far gone to recant the Irene treachery and forfeit the million dollars in-hand.  The near-death of Kim would only have cemented in Jimmy that he could never risk losing her because of money.  Kim would never have thrown away the second chance with Gatwood.  She worked far too long and endured much too much to pack it in before becoming comfortable materially.  She would figure out pretty quickly that the difference she could make as an in-demand corporate attorney earning hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollar would be exponentially greater than if she basically became a public defender.  Gould was very clear about Kim on a couple of fronts.  One of these is they had no idea how much they would love Rhea's Kim.   Given her skittish about faces a few times, it appears they are making it up as they go along.  

I disagree. Their lives are not all about money. Kim clearly realized her drive and work ethic could have killed someone. She was being reckless without knowing it -- contrasting to Jimmy's recklessness, where he knows he's hurting someone -- but she had ability and resolve to change. Jimmy, though more excitable about money, changed course also when his love for Kim made his realize what's important in life. 

 

6 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

I've gone back and forth on Howard throughout the season and the series and although he had me back on his side when he dressed down Chuck, he lost me again when he publicly humiliated a mentally ill man in front of his law firm.  Although Howard is often right, he has a vicious streak that flared up the last time he confronted Jimmy, Kim and now with Chuck.  He always has the veneer of professional civility but deep down he's petty, vindictive and embodies the polar opposite principles of Atticus Finch.  He's the most dangerous of them all because he seems good when he really isn't.

I didn't mind how Howard treated Chuck. Chuck has been making Howard believe that he was all better. Chuck astounded him in his home, lights on, cooking at the stove. Howard didn't see Chuck as mentally ill anymore, just as a man with a vindictive and untrustworthy personality.

 

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

To me, the way the scenes were filmed, the music, the acting, made it seem less that he was trying to show anyone anything, and more that he had lost the tenuous control he had gained over his mental illness... 

That reminds me: I hated the music in this sequence. I just didn't get it. I'll have to rewatch, but although I didn't mind the length of it, I didn't like the execution. The music was part of it that seemed a bad choice. 

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I was expecting Chuck to do a Swan Dive over the railing when Howard was addressing the staff.   Will HHM have to pay the supposed 8 million to Chuck's estate now or can all that paperwork get buried.

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As was discussed on "Talking Saul," the big problem for the writers in dealing with the "Jimmy Becomes Saul" transition will be how to account for the fact that there are so many people who already know Jimmy and would not hesitate to blow the whistle on him and expose him as a fraud once Saul becomes prominent. Obviously if Chuck is dead, that takes care of one person, but what about Howard? The people at Davis & Main? The old folks? I wonder if they're just going to cheat us and never complete the story to the point where BCS links up with BB. 

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1 hour ago, BeatrixK said:

Seriously -- save everyone time and anguish...THROW that Emmy at McKean NOW!  He was just transcendent this season -- it's really difficult to portray 'pants-on-head' crazy as understatedly as he did...as well as to put your character is a situation that should have been filled with such sympathy from the audience, yet it appears most of us were, rightfully so, thinking 'ya did this to yourself, jackass.'  This season has just been a shining light for McKean, and I hope he gets his work rewarded.

Jimmy...oh,Jimmy....I am kinda glad you redeemed yourself with sweet Irene.  And my guess is that is the last bit of humanity we will see from Jimmy/Saul. 

This just CAN'T be the end -- I need a season!  I need to find out what happens to Kim and her Ponytail of Determination!  I need to see Saul take his new Cadillac through A1 Car Wash and have a token given to him for his car wash professional by Walter White!  I need to see Mike do....anything Mike does!

On Talking Saul, McKean described how he played Chuck by saying, "If you are a playing a character who thinks he sees unicorns, you don't play him as a character who thinks he sees unicorns.  You play him as a character who sees unicorns."  

I was pleasantly surprised that Jimmy went to such lengths to undo the horrible damage he did to Irene.  Kim's accident has clearly had a major impact on him, for now at least.   I got a kick out of Erin, when Jimmy told her she did a good job acting in the open mike scheme and she said, "I meant every word."  

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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4 minutes ago, J-Man said:

As was discussed on "Talking Saul," the big problem for the writers in dealing with the "Jimmy Becomes Saul" transition will be how to account for the fact that there are so many people who already know Jimmy and would not hesitate to blow the whistle on him and expose him as a fraud once Saul becomes prominent. Obviously if Chuck is dead, that takes care of one person, but what about Howard? The people at Davis & Main? The old folks? I wonder if they're just going to cheat us and never complete the story to the point where BCS links up with BB. 

I don't really see that as a problem.  The clientele that Saul Goodman will be going after aren't likely to care what some snooty corporate law firms think about Saul, or even think to ask.  Howard or D&M trashing him might even improve his reputation with the dregs of society and help make him the go to guy when you want a criminal, lawyer.  Jimmy McGill might have been a "fraud" but Saul Goodman is the genuine, tenacious, sleazy, ambulance chasing, deal making lawyer that he portrays himself to be in his ads.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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I really disagree with the idea that Jimmy was out of character by doing right by Irene. Kim wanted him to do right by Irene, and Jimmy has always been highly, highly motivated to be held in esteem by Kim. I also don't think Kim's primary professional motivation is money. I think she wants to be thought of as a powerhouse attorney, which may entail earning huge sums of money, but not necessarily.

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2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really disagree with the idea that Jimmy was out of character by doing right by Irene. Kim wanted him to do right by Irene, and Jimmy has always been highly, highly motivated to be held in esteem by Kim. I also don't think Kim's primary professional motivation is money. I think she wants to be thought of as a powerhouse attorney, which may entail earning huge sums of money, but not necessarily.

When he helped Irene, I thought Jimmy was back in the character we knew before he refused to help Rebecca in any way, snitched to the insurance company about Chuck and ruined Irene's life for his own selfish gain.  He had basically become Saul Goodman, but Kim's accident seems to have temporarily shocked him back into being Jimmy McGill.  

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I'm very surprised that no one (pls excuse me if I missed seeing any posts) had any idea why that meter kept running.

It seems kind of simple (and also very funny) to me.

The meter needs to draw some electricity from somewhere in order to run itself. It always draws a tiny minimum of energy. If it didn't, how would it be able to spin that dial?

Surprising Chuck couldn't figure that out. Very surprising the power company rep didn't know enough to tell him that.

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8 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I'm very surprised that no one (pls excuse me if I missed seeing any posts) had any idea why that meter kept running.

It seems kind of simple (and also very funny) to me.

The meter needs to draw some electricity from somewhere in order to run itself. It always draws a tiny minimum of energy. If it didn't, how would it be able to spin that dial?

Surprising Chuck couldn't figure that out. Very surprising the power company rep didn't know enough to tell him that.

That is probably it!  

On reddit someone had a wild theory that Mike had planted a bug when he fixed the door and that was what cause the power drain.  I think this is wrong because:

a) Those things cost $800 bucks apiece.

b) Chuck's not that interesting.  

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1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

After being convinced that Jimmy had almost irrevocably slid into Saul the last couple episodes, he was nothing BUT jimmy in this one. It makes me think that this show could actually show us Saul/Jimmy during the Breaking Bad years too...We saw Saul during those years, at sporadic times, but we never even knew there was a Jimmy. Saul is a persona, but I doubt, at this point, that Jimmy ceased to exist. We have no idea what happened when Saul left work and went home..it's quite possible he's still just Jimmy, going home to Kim, or someone. I'd love to see that, what was going on with him when he wasn't being a player in the Walter White saga.

I agree that it looks like he is both Jimmy and Saul and may stay that way.  In this episode, he was very much the caretaker -- to Kim, Irene and even still, trying to let bygones be bygones with Chuck.  That's in his nature, and I don't know that it can be totally extinguished.  He has a conscience and compassion.  He had to have known that Erin could have dropped a dime on him about the whole Sandpiper thing but he involved her anyway.  The opening scene was poignant, Jimmy looked up to Chuck, Chuck was patient with little Jimmy, it was just the two of them.  Chuck was not honest in saying that Jimmy never really mattered to him.  He did, not just as a child, but in the Slippin' Jimmy years and beyond.  He brought him to Albuquerque, at some risk of him misbehaving at HHM.  That doesn't look like the action one would take for someone who doesn't matter. 

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31 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't really see that as a problem.  The clientele that Saul Goodman will be going after aren't likely to care what some snooty corporate law firms think about Saul, or even think to ask.  Howard or D&M trashing him might even improve his reputation with the dregs of society and help make him the go to guy when you want a criminal, lawyer.  Jimmy McGill might have been a "fraud" but Saul Goodman is the genuine, tenacious, sleazy, ambulance chasing, deal making lawyer that he portrays himself to be in his ads.  

I agree. I don't see anything that needs to be called out. People sometimes change their names, actors do it all the time. I never really saw Jimmy becoming Saul as him hiding something. I just saw it as him taking on a new persona. 

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He was deliberately kicking and kicking, trying to get the lantern to topple over, knowing it would ignite something in that completely trashed room.  He definitely attempted to take his own life.  Whether or not he succeeded is what we have to wait at least 12 months to find out, unfortunately!

I think it is pretty clear that Chuck didn't want anyone to know that he trashed his own house.  That is why he started the fire in an effort to destroy that evidence and to try and take his own life in the process.  He is definitely a damaged human being.  He is humiliated, trapped in the hell that is in his own mind.  No matter how hard he tries to get past it, he can't escape it.

Jimmy is going through his own form of hell.

I want Chuck to escape that fire unharmed.  That someone saves him, perhaps Jimmy.  I don't think I could handle watching Chuck come back for another season if he is all burned up, and barely alive.

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56 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't really see that as a problem.  The clientele that Saul Goodman will be going after aren't likely to care what some snooty corporate law firms think about Saul, or even think to ask.  Howard or D&M trashing him might even improve his reputation with the dregs of society and help make him the go to guy when you want a criminal, lawyer.  Jimmy McGill might have been a "fraud" but Saul Goodman is the genuine, tenacious, sleazy, ambulance chasing, deal making lawyer that he portrays himself to be in his ads.  

I'm not thinking so much about the clients as about all the legal professionals--lawyers, paralegals, judges, etc.--who know all about Jimmy McGill. Even in larger cities like Albuquerque, the legal community is very small, and everybody talks. There are no secrets, and I mean none. Nor is there some sort of neat division between criminal lawyers and corporate law firms when it comes to the transmission of information. Friends who went through law school together wind up at firms A and B, go for lunch together and tell each other all the dirt on each other's firms. Paralegals leave firm C for firm D and tell the firm D paralegals all the good gossip about firm C. There's no way of stopping it. And of course the judges are just as bad in the gossip department. Who could talk about Jimmy? The lawyers and staff at HHM, the lawyers and staff at Davis & Main, every judge before whom he had argued as Jimmy (and all the judges those judges deal with), the court clerks, every lawyer who'd ever been opposing counsel on one of Jimmy's cases, the lawyers at the disciplinary hearing, etc. etc.

So I agree that the BCS writers have their work cut out for them to explain how Jimmy McGill transitions to practicing as Saul Goodman without some sort of enormous uproar in the legal community. The biggest problem for me would be Saul arguing in front of the same judges he'd argued before as Jimmy. That would raise a number of flags, one would think, particularly for someone previously sanctioned for his conduct. I also doubt the members of the bar, Jewish or otherwise, would appreciate Jimmy's obvious attempt to pass himself off as Jewish despite having an Irish surname. Changing his name would be one thing, but changing his name in an attempt to deceive clients into thinking he's Jewish? I don't know. 

Edited by Eyes High.
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By the time he's Saul, Jimmy has the loud suits, loud commercials, and a comb over.  Considering how the higher ups at D&M and Howard acted over Jimmy's comparatively relatively tame commercial that wasn't text on a blue swirl, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't change the channel or just mute the terrible pro-wrestling Saul Goodman style commercials and never even register that it's the same guy.  Especially if it's been a few years by that point.  I can't be the only person who's struggled to recognize someone you haven't thought of in awhile when they pop up on social media, and that's with it being the same name.

Even if they do happen to have a "hey isn't that ..." moment, who in the well heeled Big Law world is going to want to call attention to the fact that they once employed or worked with sleazy cheesy Saul Goodman?  Everyone from the cops to the DEA on BB always acted like he was beneath their knowing.

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1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

I'm not thinking so much about the clients as about all the legal professionals--lawyers, paralegals, judges, etc.--who know all about Jimmy McGill. Even in larger cities like Albuquerque, the legal community is very small, and everybody talks. There are no secrets, and I mean none. Nor is there some sort of neat division between criminal lawyers and corporate law firms when it comes to the transmission of information. Friends who went through law school together wind up at firms A and B go for lunch together and tell each other all the dirt on each other's firms. Paralegals leave firm C for firm D and tell the firm D paralegals all the good gossip about firm C. There's no way of stopping it. And of course the judges are just as bad in the gossip department. Who could talk about Jimmy? The lawyers and staff at HHM, the lawyers and staff at Davis & Main, every judge before whom he had argued as Jimmy (and all the judges those judges deal with), the court clerks, every lawyer who'd ever been opposing counsel on one of Jimmy's cases, the lawyers at the disciplinary hearing, etc. etc.

So I agree that the BCS writers have their work cut out for them to explain how Jimmy McGill transitions to practicing as Saul Goodman without some sort of enormous uproar in the legal community. The biggest problem for me would be Saul arguing in front of the same judges he'd argued before as Jimmy. That would raise a number of flags, one would think, particularly for someone previously sanctioned for his conduct. I also doubt the members of the bar, Jewish or otherwise, would appreciate Jimmy's obvious attempt to pass himself off as Jewish despite having an Irish surname. Changing his name would be one thing, but changing his name in an attempt to deceive clients into thinking he's Jewish? I don't know. 

I'm not sure Saul cares about any of that.  Saul Goodman IS an "uproar in the legal community".  He goes out of his way to dress, talk and advertise in an over the top flamboyant manner.  He would probably, eventually charm some of his fellow lawyers with his humor and way about him. Others would hate him, but would probably fear going up against him.  Others would see him as a guy they could make deals with to get cases off their desks.   Leading people to believe he is Jewish might irk some people, but what could they really do about it?   Saul Goodman is a force of nature who bends the rules and breaks them when that doesn't work, and usually gets away with it.  

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I agree that people can change their name for professional reasons.  It might not be common, but, as long as it's not done for an improper purpose, like defrauding someone, it's okay.  

I don't dread seeing Jimmy become Saul.    We all have elements of certain characteristics inside us.  I've heard that we are all capable of doing anything, UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES.  I can't dispute that. And, I've never thought that Jimmy was so terrible, although, that might not be a popular view.  The morality of a person is subjective, imo.  

So much debate as to whether Chuck is really dead.  OMG, I can hardly stand to think that they would save him and let his character return.  I was so over his character, that I could barely endure scenes with him in it.  One season was plenty for me.  I suppose that the writers were trying to show what pushed Jimmy so far......okay.  we get it.  I just think it was still overdone with Chuck.  Please, let it be over. 

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I thought the interplay between Chuck and Howard was basically a judgment of Solomon scenario. Chuck spoke about his love for the firm, but he immediately threatened to destroy it. Howard spoke similarly, and went into his own pocket to preserve it. I think when he dropped the cheque on Chuck, even Chuck realized that Howard was truly acting in the best interests of the firm. 

Chuck's equity will still be payable to him. The firm likely has some key man insurance to assist.

One thing that seemed off in the plot was the suggestion that Chuck would void his equity if he retired. Perhaps it would be paid out over a longer period, but he would still get his piece of the pie. 

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I was also thinking too about how so many people already know Jimmy and his dubious behavior.  But then I realized that as Saul Goodman, he began defending lowlife criminals who wouldn't care how corrupt Jimmy McGill had been.  Jimmy embraced everything sleazy about Saul Goodman and didn't look back.  Criminals and drug dealers wouldn't care about Jimmy scamming some old women.

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8 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So much debate as to whether Chuck is really dead.

Michael McKean has said in a NYTimes interview that Chuck is definitely dead, but he might be back next season in flashbacks. Of course, the show runners can always change their minds.

I think what Jimmy did for Irene was very sweet; he sacrificed a quick payday and his own reputation with the elders so that she could have her (fair-weather) friends back. He embraced his inner con-man to help someone else, when he could have just shrugged and walked away.

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1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It was interesting that Jimmy said he never had an interest in  fighting the good fight or changing the world and said, "That was more of a Chuck thing."  I think this shows something of a shallowness in Jimmy and perhaps shows that Chuck might have once been a much better man than the one we see.  

I don't think that's shallow.

Jimmy thinks small. He's always thought small, for better or worse. It's why his scams were always so nickle-and-dime, and it's why he spotted the microscopic but systemic overcharging at Sandpiper. It's why he is affected by Irene's sadness and it's also why he was able to manipulate her and her friends so well beforehand. It's why he's overwhelmed by the prospect of this $1M Sandpiper payout, in contrast to Chuck, who couldn't care less about his own $9M HHM buyout (at least, couldn't care less financially).

Saul was like this, too. There's just something indelibly "small time" about him, I guess. Remember him telling Badger about the retainer? "$4,665. I'm going to write it on the back of my card."

That said, maybe I'm too sympathetic to him because I relate completely. When I was a kid, my big dream was becoming hairdresser, having a daughter, and living in my own studio apartment with her. Honestly, I was always too consumed with whether things were OK *right now* to worry about the future. I think Jimmy is/was similar. To me, it's the kind of mindset that someone has when they're constantly moving from one crisis to the next. You aren't going to worry about the future when you're consumed by crisis today. Your big dream for the future is going to be "a time without crisis." You're not going to fantasize about fighting the good fight.

In general, though, I relate to Jimmy too much. It's unsettling.

42 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I can't imagine CHuck not having a will or that he left a penny of his money to Jimmy.  Probably left it all to electromagnetic sensitivity research. 

Hahaha -- perfect!

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Kim wanted him to do right by Irene, and Jimmy has always been highly, highly motivated to be held in esteem by Kim.

Honestly, I don't think Kim cared much about what was going on with Irene. When Jimmy was talking to her about it, she was just cracking jokes and pretty much didn't seem to care whether he would be able to mend fences or not.

Like I've said before, I think Kim is a good person, but she's not especially soft-hearted or sentimental. I think Jimmy wanted to fix things for Irene because 1. he's a fixer. That's just always what he wants to do. 2. he's pretty soft-hearted. He was going to try and help out Irene for the same reason he was going to spill the coffee for Mike back in the day.

59 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree that it looks like he is both Jimmy and Saul and may stay that way.

Yes, I agree. I think Jimmy will slip in and out of being Saul, as the situation and his feelings demand.

I still think Saul is going to be a marketing ploy that ends up doing great and becoming Jimmy's main business.

But what I'm very curious about is what names/people he's funneling money to under Ice Station Zebra Associates. If Jimmy were Saul legally and full-time, he wouldn't need a shell company. As Saul, he's got silent partners, he didn't completely get rid of the McGill name -- something.

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9 minutes ago, benteen said:

I was also thinking too about how so many people already know Jimmy and his dubious behavior.  But then I realized that as Saul Goodman, he began defending lowlife criminals who wouldn't care how corrupt Jimmy McGill had been.  Jimmy embraced everything sleazy about Saul Goodman and didn't look back.  Criminals and drug dealers wouldn't care about Jimmy scamming some old women.

You don't want a "criminal lawyer", you want a "criminal" lawyer.  You know what I'm saying? - Jesse Pinkman

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34 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Saul cares about any of that.  

The bar has the ability to restrict his practice if he commits ethical violations and has already done so. If it comes down to it, it will be other lawyers who decide his fate, so while he may not care what other lawyers think of him, he should, particularly as someone who has already come close to being disbarred.

Any lawyer who doesn't care what judges think of him or her is a fool.

 

27 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

I thought the interplay between Chuck and Howard was basically a judgment of Solomon scenario. Chuck spoke about his love for the firm, but he immediately threatened to destroy it. Howard spoke similarly, and went into his own pocket to preserve it. I think when he dropped the cheque on Chuck, even Chuck realized that Howard was truly acting in the best interests of the firm. 

Chuck's equity will still be payable to him. The firm likely has some key man insurance to assist.

One thing that seemed off in the plot was the suggestion that Chuck would void his equity if he retired. Perhaps it would be paid out over a longer period, but he would still get his piece of the pie. 

Yes, yes, yes. I thought of Solomon, too. Chuck would rather destroy the firm than be parted from it, while Howard was willing to go into personal debt to protect the firm.

Edited by Eyes High.
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20 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

Michael McKean has said in a NYTimes interview that Chuck is definitely dead, but he might be back next season in flashbacks. Of course, the show runners can always change their minds.

I think what Jimmy did for Irene was very sweet; he sacrificed a quick payday and his own reputation with the elders so that she could have her (fair-weather) friends back. He embraced his inner con-man to help someone else, when he could have just shrugged and walked away.

Well, I hope that's right.  Last night on the aftershow that wasn't a certainty.....hmmm.......

 

Also,. representing people who are charged with crimes is an honorable job.  If not for them, the wheels of justice would grind to a halt.  Everyone is afforded a legal defense, either private pay or court appointed.  And, my old firm, used the term "advocates for the accused."   Which is more accurate.  lol I'm serious.  

Edited by SunnyBeBe.
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16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The bar has the ability to restrict his practice if he commits ethical violations and has already done so. If it comes down to it, it will be other lawyers who decide his fate, so while he may not care what other lawyers think of him, he should, particularly as someone who has already come close to being disbarred.

Any lawyer who doesn't care what judges think of him or her is a fool.

 

Yes, yes, yes. I thought of Solomon, too. Chuck would rather destroy the firm than be parted from it, while Howard was willing to go into personal debt to protect the firm.

Saul cares about his ability to influence judges and other lawyers, but I don't think he cares much whether they like him or approve of him.  He wouldn't be wearing the clown college wardrobe and running the cheesy TV ads if he cared what lawyers and judges thought of him.   

If we accept the premise that the transition from Jimmy McGill to Saul Goodman will be a huge problem, I think we need to consider whether the character of Saul Goodman would be realistic at all, even if he had been born Saul Goodman.  

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In the cold open there was a close up of the lantern with the hissing clearly audible; this was the hissing heard at the end of the episode. So I guess my anticipation of a big KABOOM (RIP, Adam West) from an open gas main was unfounded.

Did Chuck remember the slide of the Lantern on top of newspapers that Jimmy used to take him down? Was Chuck trying to silence the hiss from the Lantern, as he remembered the times reading to Jimmy as a kid? Stamps and Lanterns sure are dangerous on TV this season.

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30 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

Michael McKean has said in a NYTimes interview that Chuck is definitely dead, but he might be back next season in flashbacks. Of course, the show runners can always change their minds.

I think what Jimmy did for Irene was very sweet; he sacrificed a quick payday and his own reputation with the elders so that she could have her (fair-weather) friends back. He embraced his inner con-man to help someone else, when he could have just shrugged and walked away.

Well, it was refreshing that Jimmy turned back from the dark side, but what he did for Irene would be like intentionally setting her house on fire, but then changing his mind and putting it out.  Irene's friends were not "fair-weather" they were systematically and diabolically poisoned against her by Jimmy McGill.   It was nice that he was willing to sacrifice his reputation and quick payday to undo the damage he had done, though.

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2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I'm of the opinion that Chuck is dead, so it's finally going to be put to bed

I think he'll be waking up in the ICU surrounded by machines (the personal hell Jimmy predicted).

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

The meter needs to draw some electricity from somewhere in order to run itself. It always draws a tiny minimum of energy. If it didn't, how would it be able to spin that dial?

The dial is spun by the EM field from the current that is flowing into the house and readings don't include current used by the meter itself. It's possible he's got a camera on his water meter; very few people would think of something like that. Regardless of what was drawing that current, I doubt the wheel was actually spinning anywhere near as fast as we were seeing (which was though his eyes).

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Oh and also, when I say that maybe Jimmy is perpetually in a crisis mindset and doesn't think big because of it -- by "crisis," I don't necessarily mean anything big. Just anxiety maybe. Something that stood out in the flashback between Chuck and Jimmy was also that kid!Jimmy was worried for Mabel and needed reassurance from Chuck that she'd be OK. Then in the present, he kept fussing over Kim, and then needed to check on Chuck, and then was willing to destroy his client list and make himself look bad in order to make Irene feel better, too.

And in a way, I think that's still a part of his personality as Saul. Saul is hardened and cold compared to Jimmy. But at the same time, he's still a fixer. He still has a compulsion to help.

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24 minutes ago, Uncle Benzene said:

Couldn't agree more. Even in Breaking Bad, I've always seen the good in Saul. I mean, sure, he was sleazy. A "criminal lawyer" as it were. But it always seemed to me that the bulk of his practice was built on small-time accused criminals, who deserve representation too, and surely not all of whom were guilty of anything significant and who certainly weren't very lucrative, as clients go. Quite similar to his former life in elder law, actually (the Sandpiper windfall notwithstanding.) Sticking up for the easily-abused. We got glimpses of that here and there from the packed lobby of his strip-mall office, but that was about it because it was Breaking Bad and not Better Call Saul, and therefore on that show it was all about his entanglements with Walter and Jesse. But even then, while he did eventually advise Walter to send Jesse to Belize, he also tried his damnedest right at the start to convince Walt and Jesse to take their profits and get the hell out, because they weren't cut out for what they'd gotten themselves into. He was trying to do right by them. And he tried to help Jesse with his money, etc. All indications are that he treated Francesca, Huell and Kuby well. He remained "friends" with Mike, and it sure did look like he had a loyal client base among the folks in his lobby. In retrospect, the Jimmy McGill was always there just beneath the surface, even on Breaking Bad. In my opinion, anyway.

I also agree wholeheartedly with the person upthread (and I apologize for not quoting) who said that Jimmy's big takeaway from Chuck's final(?) words to him will prove to not be the part about how Jimmy never really mattered all that much to him, but rather the part about "why even bother going through the motions?" Very similar to his takeaway from his final visit with Marco. The first message delivered with love, the second (but same) message delivered with loathing. For better or worse, Jimmy needs to quit faking it. You can't escape who you are.

Similarly, for me it's easy to see the "good" in Gustavo Fring as well, despite everything. The way he interacts with Mike. The way he interacts with his employees at Los Pollos. Hell, the way he initially interacted with Walter (until, as always, Walter got too big for his britches and proved himself to be a powder keg.) Obviously there's nothing noble about being a meth kingpin. But while I think it's mostly about practicality, I do think there's a part of Gustavo that genuinely seeks to keep the peace and avoid violent conflict as much as possible, that there's some sense of honor there, that he truly does want to "do things the right way" to whatever extent this particular business allows him to.

Same with Ehrmantraut, for that matter. And Nacho.

I find it fascinating that for all the stuff back in the BB days about how Walter was supposedly a good person at heart, who just got himself in too deep trying to provide for his family, he really was a piece of shit who treated everyone around him like shit, from Gretchen all the way through to Holly. He was a monster. And Jesse wasn't much better. They both had their moments of humanity, but at the end of the day both of them were terrible people who through hubris and incompetence left everyone around them destroyed, and only every now and then genuinely gave a shit. But it seems to me we're finding out now that the real "good people leading bad lives" in the Gilliganverse are actually Jimmy, Gus, Mike and Nacho. Love it.

I've said it before, and I'll stand by it. Better Call Saul is better than Breaking Bad. And that's an incredible accomplishment. This ain't no Joanie, this ain't no Chachi, this ain't no foolin' around.

I, too, prefer BCS to BB, and I loved BB. I'll note again that, to me, BB was primarily about how over-inflated pride, by almost all the major characters,.  led to huge amounts of misery being inflicted on innocent people. There is certainly an element of that in this show, but Jimmy and Mike in particular to me  seem to be driven by grief and loss. Mike's grief and guilt about his son undergirds all his decisions, and Jimmy's grief over the destruction of his relationship with his brother, and, I fear, the eventual destruction of his relationship with Kim, will drive the conversion to Saul, who will facilitate great evil. I love that Gilligan and Company have the self confidence and security to fully flesh out this tale, again, not rushing anything. 

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When Jimmy was parked on the street and debating about whether to go knock on Chuck's door, did anyone else think the house in the background (way down towards the end of the street) looked like Jesse's house?

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1 hour ago, Uncle Benzene said:

All indications are that he treated Francesca, Huell and Kuby well. He remained "friends" with Mike, and it sure did look like he had a loyal client base among the folks in his lobby. In retrospect, the Jimmy McGill was always there just beneath the surface, even on Breaking Bad. In my opinion, anyway.

I get what you're saying, but on BB he also called Francesca "Honey Tits" in front of clients, made lewd comments about mail-order brides, and on at least one occasion was interrupted by Walter after having obviously just had an ... erotic massage? ... in his office. (His pants were unzipped and the ... massage therapist ... was leaving with her table.) I mean, being a little sexually skeevy/harassy doesn't make someone a bad person with a capital B, but I'm sure the show-runners wish they'd left out some of those broader strokes as the character grew and evolved (and became the subject of his own show). 

I do agree that he always tried to do right by Walter and Jesse, in the sense that he probably had multiple opportunities to sell them out or back-stab them and never did. And many of the really questionable things he did do (usually involving getting Walt in contact with hitmen) he did under considerable and stated duress.

Thanks for those who tried to answer my question about whether Chuck was dead. Since the show apparently hasn't been renewed yet, I'll say it for the record: if Chuck is really dead and they're ready to start setting up BB-era Saul in earnest, I'll be back for S5 with bells on.

(Love the idea that Rhea Seahorn mentioned, that Kim could still be in the picture in BB, just back at home. Maybe she's working elsewhere at the mall food court now. No, wait, we've seen Gene at home eating alone, scratch that.) 

Edited by kieyra.
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4 hours ago, luna1122 said:

This was a great finale, except for the no Mike thing. That seemed so odd to me.

After being convinced that Jimmy had almost irrevocably slid into Saul the last couple episodes, he was nothing BUT jimmy in this one. It makes me think that this show could actually show us Saul/Jimmy during the Breaking Bad years too...We saw Saul during those years, at sporadic times, but we never even knew there was a Jimmy. Saul is a persona, but I doubt, at this point, that Jimmy ceased to exist. We have no idea what happened when Saul left work and went home..it's quite possible he's still just Jimmy, going home to Kim, or someone. I'd love to see that, what was going on with him when he wasn't being a player in the Walter White saga.

Chuck's fate was fascinating to watch, and I do believe he's dead. It'd be crazy if he left everything to Jimmy.

I was half convinced, when Kim was looking at her calendar and then slumped and decided to go all movie/queso binge mode instead of working, that she'd just realized she was pregnant or something. Guess not.

As someone twenty years younger than Chuck but with a bad knee, I was impressed with the way Micheal Mckean just sailed down all those stairs, back ramrod straight, never needing a handrail.

I have a big grey cat named Atticus, so I feel ya, Kim.

Besides my user name, the kitten in the picture is my now five-year-old Scout (although he's a male). Can you tell what my favorite book is?

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5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think Howard was trying to preserve the firm's reputation by making it appear that Chuck was voluntarily retiring.  Only the partners knew of the threatened lawsuits.  Even Chuck ultimately did not want to destroy what he had built once he knew that he was being bought out so he went along with the charade up to a point.

 

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I didn't mind how Howard treated Chuck. Chuck has been making Howard believe that he was all better. Chuck astounded him in his home, lights on, cooking at the stove. Howard didn't see Chuck as mentally ill anymore, just as a man with a vindictive and untrustworthy personality.

 

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Howard has bent over backwards to support Chuck and cover for him for years, and when he could no longer cover for Chuck and when the firm could no longer afford him offered him the opportunity for a dignified, respectable sendoff. Chuck responded by coming after the firm and indicating that he'd rather destroy the firm than retire. Drastic measures were clearly required, and Howard's anger at Chuck's betrayal of their friendship and his willingness to destroy the firm they'd worked so hard to build rather than accept retirement was entirely justified.

As for the "public humiliation," Howard spoke highly of Chuck and insisted on a huge round of applause. That's a sight better than the terse emails that usually get sent around the office when somebody leaves a company unwillingly. Chuck could have had a classy party honouring his retirement--Howard instructed his assistant to begin planning it--but Chuck screwed himself out of that option.

And Howard cleared the room before speaking to Chuck. He could have dressed him down in front of the partners and refused to do so. Nothing public about that. That was the dignified way to handle it.

I disagree. While I do believe Howard fancies himself a mannered old-school gentleman lawyer in the style of Atticus Finch, he, like all people, has limits. He has put up with a lot of bullshit from Jimmy, Chuck, and yes, even Kim over the course of the series, and he has a whole law firm to protect. I don't get the sense that he's petty and vindictive so much that he's 1,000% done with their nonsense and not afraid to say so.

Howard reminds me a lot of CNN's anchors and their coverage of the election, Standing Rock, health care.   With their earnest good looks and professionalism, they seem like the good guys, truthseekers who are fighting the good fight especially against whack jobs like Trump, Pence and Ryan and their Fox News friends.  However, when you really examine them deep down, they still are corporate shills who only seem decent in comparison to the alternative.  I found especially Eyes High's defense very compelling, but then I ask myself... are we really supposed to consider Howard as the moral center of the show?  Or does he represent the ingrained corruption in a system personified by a news network capable of colluding to install their corporate candidate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/07/donna-brazile-is-totally-not-sorry-for-leaking-cnn-debate-questions-to-hillary-clinton/?utm_term=.7b77fd971bb2

What is our takeaway supposed to be from the passive aggressive confrontation of Howard and Kim in the restaurant?  Or of Howard vs. Jimmy regarding the Sandpiper settlement?  That Howard is misunderstood and these annoying side characters are driving them crazy with their constant moral failings?  Or is it something more subversive?  I realize that my reading might seem super left field, but I think in the same way we are supposed to be appalled by Hector in comparison to Gus...  we have a similar reaction of Chuck in comparison to Howard... or Fox compared to CNN.  They are all terrible the difference being only that Howard and CNN don't view themselves as criminals while Gus probably does.

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3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree that people can change their name for professional reasons.  It might not be common, but, as long as it's not done for an improper purpose, like defrauding someone, it's okay.  

I don't dread seeing Jimmy become Saul.    We all have elements of certain characteristics inside us.  I've heard that we are all capable of doing anything, UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES.  I can't dispute that. And, I've never thought that Jimmy was so terrible, although, that might not be a popular view.  The morality of a person is subjective, imo.  

So much debate as to whether Chuck is really dead.  OMG, I can hardly stand to think that they would save him and let his character return.  I was so over his character, that I could barely endure scenes with him in it.  One season was plenty for me.  I suppose that the writers were trying to show what pushed Jimmy so far......okay.  we get it.  I just think it was still overdone with Chuck.  Please, let it be over. 

I don't think there is too much of a debate -- it seems like the majority of people here agree in thinking that he is actually dead, largely because Chuck's story seems to be over.   I don't see too many people saying otherwise.   But the way the episode ended did leave it a bit (intentionally) ambiguous, and I am the sort of person who likes to look at things from all angles, and consider other possibilities beyond the obvious outcomes, so I was thinking of and suggesting other ways the Chuck story could end horribly, and have a major impact on Jimmy, without Chuck actually dying.  But, realistically, even I think that his story has been leading to something terrible happening at some point, so it might as well happen now.

I was very tired of the whole Jimmy-Chuck saga after all this time.  It just seemed to go around in circles.  I see how it was necessary to the birth of Saul, but it was getting a bit redundant.    Honestly, I would rather have seen Chuck try to navigate through his post-Jimmy/post-Howard life and find some sort of new purpose than to see him in a bunch of flashbacks from this point forward.  If he is dead, then I don't know what purpose a lot of flashbacks would have either.  I'm sure it would all be well done, however the flashbacks are handled, but I kind of hope they are few and far between unless they are actually going to somehow be applicable to events happening in Jimmy/Saul's current and future life, and move the story forward at a slightly faster pace.

Edited by TVFan17. Reason: changed a word
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Another reason I don't feel sympathy for Chuck is that he never told Jimmy that his mother called for him on her deathbed.  I get that it hurt Chuck that she didn't ask for him....I sympathized with him there.  But not on hiding this from Jimmy.

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2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, I hope that's right.  Last night on the aftershow that wasn't a certainty.....hmmm.......

 

Also,. representing people who are charged with crimes is an honorable job.  If not for them, the wheels of justice would grind to a halt.  Everyone is afforded a legal defense, either private pay or court appointed.  And, my old firm, used the term "advocates for the accused."   Which is more accurate.  lol I'm serious.  

I totally agree with you that on Talking Saul they seemed to avoid saying Chuck is absolutely dead.  They danced around it.  Michael McKean's comments indicate that Chuck is gone (and I did not see this article until 2 seconds ago) -- https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/19/arts/television/better-call-saul-finale-michael-mckean-chuck.html -- but it was not made quite as clear on Talking Saul.

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