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S01.E10: Night 2017.06.14

9 hours ago, rubinia said:

Well, didn't they assume she was pregnant in the earlier episode because her period was quite late? So if she IS pregnant now, her period would have also been late, and they could have used that as their reasoning if they couldn't mention the test.

In my case, I knew I was pregnant before I even missed a period and took a home pregnancy test to confirm it- both times.  And that was over 20 years ago.  My body was just so sensitive to the changes that I could feel it pretty early on.  So, June may not have missed her period yet and still have tested positive for pregnancy.

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In the previous episode, Serena did ask Rita if Offred had asked for her monthly supply of "napkins" yet.   That suggests these people are tracking their individual handmaid's cycles damn closely.  In Late, they were making all kinds of assumptions just on the basis of being off by a few days.

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On 6/13/2017 at 10:53 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Preemptive protest of any and all future attempts to redeem Serena Joy. That woman is a monster with no salvageable soul.

With you. This episode made me realize that she is actually psycho. One minute she's knocking June against the door frame, raging like a bull, the next minute prostrate on the floor with the freshly-used pregnancy test of the aforementioned knocked-around woman (gee, Serena, maybe not the best idea to physically abuse a woman you're hoping will be pregnant?!), then gentle and meek and telling June to get some rest. And then there's the Hannah stunt. She is WHACKED.

 

23 hours ago, rubinia said:

The girl-power-Nina-Simone-music slo-mo made me cringe.

You are not alone. Whenever the Handmaids assemble to do their defiant girl-gangsta swagger through the streets of Gilead, I'm cringing. Layer a 'sassy' song over it, and I'm hiding my eyes.

 

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't hate Nick.  I think people don't want this show to have a love triangle, kind of a cliche trope to sink to that level.  For some odd reason though, it's not bothering me as much as I thought it would, IF that is where they go.  They are not in any kind of normal situation here, and I don't have a problem with either of them developing feelings for one another, because after years of insane society and cruelty and pain?  You finally have someone relating to you as a person?  Seems pretty logical to me, for both of them.

 

Well said. I don't hate Nick either. And although I am no fan of love triangles (they've sunk too many shows and usually make the person who's 'torn' look like a selfish idiot), I actually don't mind the idea of June being caught between her feelings for Luke and her feelings for Nick. I think it's quite realistic - and, as you say, logical - that she could form another connection with someone else in a dreadful situation like this. For years June thought Luke was dead, and mourned him as such - the fact that she continued her relationship with Nick even after she was told differently makes me think that Luke is still not quite real to her. Nick is in the here and now with her, and now they'll be connected by a child too, assuming the pregnancy comes off. There are a number of things they could do with this situation that could be interesting and different from the way such things are usually handled, but we'll have to wait and see if they'll reach for that, or fall prey to all the usual love triangle cliches.

 

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Nick has had any say in much of anything in Gilead either, so I don't consider him rapey.  Aside from that, after the first time, June went to him.  My guess is some love, yes, but also admiration.  If I'm correct in my guess that Nick is in Mayday?  He's risked a lot here to save her.

I couldn't help thinking that life is about to get rockier for Nick in the Waterford household - when Serena Joy witnessed his moment of tenderness with June, she was clearly a bit taken aback. She saw that he cares, and she didn't know that. Some way or another, I'm betting she's going to find a way to use it if she deems it necessary. Add in the fact that she flat-out told Fred the baby's not his (while carefully omitting her own role in bringing about the conception), AND the fact that Fred made it pretty clear to June that he's not really buying that the baby's his either, and it's only a matter of time before he gets a clue about whose it is, and realizes that Nick's loyalty is not what he thought it was. All eyes are going to be on Nick in a way they've probably never been.

 

18 hours ago, Jael said:

I complained about the jarring music cues back in Episode 3 and it was better for a while but there were two in the finale that were absolutely ridiculous. Someone here is scoring for comedy -- "Feeling Good" and "American Girl" would have made me laugh if I weren't so furious.

This is a good show. Not flawless, but good. And the music choices come as close to ruining it as any music possibly could.

I'm a musical score geek - I'm always hyper-aware of the music in anything that I'm watching - and I officially loathe the way this show uses songs. The atmosphere-killing 'jarring' aside - too many of them are either things that have been so overplayed throughout the years that they've been rendered meaningless, or they're songs that have been overused in recent film/TV. In other words, a lot of these songs are tired, no matter how brilliant they actually are, and they don't help, they make things worse. There is a real art to choosing songs to accompany scenes, and whoever the musical supervisor is for this show is not impressing me with their artfulness. Go watch Homicide: Life on the Street for a master class in how to do it. And then never use something like '(Don't You) Forget About Me' - which brings with it both enormous baggage from another story AND the dreaded 'played to death' syndrome - again.

Edited by Becks.
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I too am in the camp that this episode was ending on a higher note and more in the same quality as the first three episodes. The cinematography/lighting issue seemed to be back on point, too.

What little bits of sorrow or pity I had for Serena Joy are gone now after what she did to June with Hannah. Monstrous. That scene was incredibly acted by Elisabeth Moss.

I also didn't the sense we were supposed to believe Moira had been walking alone the entire time since we saw her escape Jezebel's. I would have liked to have seen her journey but I suspect there were moments of hiding, help by others maybe (there is a Quaker underground railroad of safe houses), maybe sexual favors traded to posted watchmen (remember that desperate moment from Ofglen?).

The stoning/Spartacus moment: I think they managed it because (as mentioned above) they all participated en masse. I think they (wisely) took advantage of a brief chink in Aunt Lydia's armor too. During the skirmish with newOfglen and the solider Aunt Lydia was trying to assert her authority with the guard and prevent chaos, and so that was THE split second to resist as a group. I think the "I'm sorry Aunt Lydia" helped because while a powerful "no more" line in the sand was being made, they were still deferring to her (in a way).

Edited by JasonCC. Reason: ETA: clarity
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When Moira got to the refugee center I would have thought there would have been a conversation with the intake person about what she had to do in Gilead such as the being a Handmaid and a lady of the evening and how it was government sanctioned rape and all.  Are there any other handmaids or a Martha that escaped from Gilead?

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10 hours ago, secnarf said:

Moira knew Luke is alive and in Canada because June told her when they met at Jezebel's. I was surprised she didn't put him down as family, knowing that and presumably wanting to get in touch with him.

Ah, I forgot about that! You're right!

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I have no bones to pick with anything from this episode, loved every minute.  However, if you had to show ID to get out of the city (like Fred did when he and June went to Jezebel's) how did Moira pull that off?

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15 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

When Moira got to the refugee center I would have thought there would have been a conversation with the intake person about what she had to do in Gilead such as the being a Handmaid and a lady of the evening and how it was government sanctioned rape and all.  Are there any other handmaids or a Martha that escaped from Gilead?

I think the social workers have been trained to give female Gilead refugees a minute before barraging them with painful questions. As we saw by Moira's reaction to being free, at first shell-shocked and incredulous, then breaking down and crying (for perhaps the first time since it all started) when she saw Luke, those women need some time to process what's happened to them before they can talk about it. And if they never want to talk about it (c.f. Luke's mute friend), they shouldn't be asked to.

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I thought it was pretty clever to end the season with Offred/June being put in the back of the truck. We are left to wonder if they will follow the book's ending or go in another direction. (No spoilers from me)

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If nothing ever goes well for June from this point forward I am glad she got to have some power in her life, deciding she would not throw a stone at Janine and the general eff this shit attitude was as close to her old life as she could have gotten.  Those are the small things that keeps her from being ground down.  

When the Commanders were conferring about the fate of Commander Putnam Fred was like, well who hasn't screwed their handmaid outside of the ceremony, lol. You know everyone of those guys has done the same.  The punishment did not fit the crime, (when Ofglen was punished they mutilated her genitals), why wouldn't they have castrated him?  Mrs. Putnam asking for the harshest sentence was perfect and funny that they viewed it as how much she loved her husband.

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14 hours ago, Miles said:

I sadly can't find a source (too many similar but not quite it), but I've heard a story where a prison guard in the US took out his gun and killed a death row inmate, who'd just gone through hours of a botched execution and would probably have had to suffer hours more. That guard was willing to put that guilt on himself to put that poor guy out of his misery and of course he didn't get thanks for it, but was prosecuted for murder.

Only the state is allowed to murder people, you see.

Oh, you touched on my secret, Rectify-inspired obsession with capital punishment! There's another death row inmate (Clayton Lockett, he got a fair amount of publicity in 2014) who was writhing in terrible pain during his execution. The curtains were closed to witnesses and when they reopened he was dead. It is all speculation but there are rumors he was smothered with a pillow. It's like you said, though. Only the state can legally kill you. There are other accounts of inmates who have been revived from suicide attempts, healed, and then executed. There are special "death watch" cells with 24/7 camera surveillance to prevent suicides. Successful suicides where the prison had to call the victim's families and tell them not to show up to the execution, and how it results in victims being further traumatized because they got what they wanted but not how they wanted it. 

The punishment in real life and in the context in the show isn't so much the act of death, but being helpless in the face of it. Those assholes know Janine is crazy and thought she was taking Charlotte to Happyland where they could live forever...or, at the very least, sparing her from the horror of Gilead. They just couldn't let her make the conscious choice to gtfo of dodge. I am surprised they didn't make up some dumb excuse to keep her sedated and pregnant, though. "Sin has corrupted her mind, but God is merciful and has blessed her womb so that she may be redeemed. You know, instead of healing her damn mind." Probably they'll go full Nazi and punish June and Ofglen 2.0 by making Janine or other innocent HMs suffer. 

I think so many elements could be explored if they really wanted to expand this universe. Like, the female children. I assume as soon as they hit puberty they're eligible for handmaid-hood. I want to see the colonies, too. 

Edited by The Mighty Peanut.
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I had to laugh when the first word out of the caseworker's mouth to Moira was "Sorry." She's in Canada, all right.

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8 hours ago, Miles said:

I think it was mentioned in previous episodes and in this one it was at least heavily implied. Aunt Lydia said "This is will be painfull, I am sorry to say. But you are so very precious, we wouldn't want to... lose you."

Also Moira was caught relatively swiftly. Probably took them a while to notice they were gone.

It might not be GPS, as that would be problematic considering it would need a power source, but it certainly has an electronic component, similar to what you chip pets with nowadays and probably can be read form a few meters away.

I took it as the red tag just being an easy way to identify the handmaids if for some reason they weren't wearing their uniforms. 

ETA: They're literally tagged like cattle, which I think was really the symbolic point of the tags.

Edited by rubinia.
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I loved Serena Joy telling Fred the baby wasn't his etc...He knows he is sterile and he knows he is not the father of that baby but will never admit it.

I hated Serena Joy torturing June like she did, I get it, her psyche is messed up too but it is pretty much by her own doing but will strike out at anyone who she thinks is a threat to her.  That really was messed up, June should be glad her daughter is alive and well but come on, that was low. 

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1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I think the social workers have been trained to give female Gilead refugees a minute before barraging them with painful questions. As we saw by Moira's reaction to being free, at first shell-shocked and incredulous, then breaking down and crying (for perhaps the first time since it all started) when she saw Luke, those women need some time to process what's happened to them before they can talk about it. And if they never want to talk about it (c.f. Luke's mute friend), they shouldn't be asked to.

That was my take too. He said he was a temporary intake officer and she would be assigned a social worker whom I assume has some additional training in how to help refugees connect with trauma services. His response to everything was "whatever you want is fine. Everything is fine." So I'm pretty sure someone in his position is trained to give them a rundown of how the refugee program works but to let the refugee set the tone of the conversation. If they want to talk, let them talk. If they want to sleep, find them a bed. If they can't make a decision yet, let them know that's ok too. Of all the "outside Gilead" stories this is one I'm excited about. How will Moira re-enter society? 

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1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I had to laugh when the first word out of the caseworker's mouth to Moira was "Sorry." She's in Canada, all right.

Perfect! What with that, the huge Canadian flags everywhere, and the free healthcare, all that was missing was the Timmy's maple-glazed donut (yum) and a double-double (not that she would have known what that last one is). 

I did find it oddly jarring that the intake officer said "Welcome to Ontario".  The only time I have ever heard a fellow Ontarian self-identify as such is in the hands of an American screenwriter.  We might identify with our city "Welcome to T'ronno" (translation: Toronto)  or magnanimously speak for the whole country, but we tend not to refer to ourselves by province.  It should have been "Welcome to Canada", especially when speaking to a foreign refugee. 

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8 hours ago, Miles said:

I'm pretty sure the show runners knew a loooooong time ago that they would get a second season, considering the viewer count, cultural impact of the show and the billions of awards it will get.

They implanted a GPS tracker in her ear. Why they used something that needed pneumatic preassure for that is beyond me, though. A little gun that just works with the preassure you apply with your hand would be more than enough for that.

I sadly can't find a source (too many similar but not quite it), but I've heard a story where a prison guard in the US took out his gun and killed a death row inmate, who'd just gone through hours of a botched execution and would probably have had to suffer hours more. That guard was willing to put that guilt on himself to put that poor guy out of his misery and of course he didn't get thanks for it, but was prosecuted for murder.

Only the state is allowed to murder people, you see.

Moira doesn't have any family in Canada. She certainly has some in Gilead. Also don't forget that Luke and Hannah are black too and they certainly have a family.


He said "Do you have any family in Canada? We have an alert system in case anybody comes in."

It is worded a bit confusing, but what he meant was, that if Moira had family in Canada, that family would have been alerted by her arrival.

This series was completed long before the first episode aired, a few months before the elections here.  As the producers said, it was "in the can."  So, editing, score, color correction, all of that completed.

It's a Red Tag to identify her as a Handmaid, no one has ever mentioned GPS.

That was worded oddly.  Probably just to give Luke and Moira that big "family" scene.  Because, really, how would an escapee know if other friends and family had possibly made it out too?  Oh well, minor quibble for me.

Edited by Umbelina.
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1 hour ago, FozzyBear said:

That was my take too. He said he was a temporary intake officer and she would be assigned a social worker whom I assume has some additional training in how to help refugees connect with trauma services. His response to everything was "whatever you want is fine. Everything is fine." So I'm pretty sure someone in his position is trained to give them a rundown of how the refugee program works but to let the refugee set the tone of the conversation. If they want to talk, let them talk. If they want to sleep, find them a bed. If they can't make a decision yet, let them know that's ok too. Of all the "outside Gilead" stories this is one I'm excited about. How will Moira re-enter society? 

I picture Moira doing something in a leadership role to help the Mayday cause, I see her as someone who is not stranger to donating her time to social injustice issues, marching in protests etc...I bet what ever she does she will kick ass.  

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On 6/14/2017 at 7:46 AM, rubinia said:

The girl-power-Nina-Simone-music slo-mo made me cringe.

Ugh, so bad.

22 hours ago, Jael said:

I complained about the jarring music cues back in Episode 3 and it was better for a while but there were two in the finale that were absolutely ridiculous. Someone here is scoring for comedy -- "Feeling Good" and "American Girl" would have made me laugh if I weren't so furious.

This is a good show. Not flawless, but good. And the music choices come as close to ruining it as any music possibly could.

Yes.

21 hours ago, Jael said:

I read the book as well, and I've read your theory on the jarring music, but if that's what they're going for, it isn't working for everyone. People sauntering confidently in slo-mo to "Feeling Good" makes me think I'm watching "Brooklyn Nine-Nine," and that Boyle's about to slip on a banana peel. (And I love Brooklyn Nine-Nine, but this show is... not that.) 

Ok, I'll let it go after this, but exactly.  It would've been anvilicious with just the slow-mo or just the song.  I guess there aren't many shows, especially 'made for Hulu', that can be subtle and still get enough viewers to come back.  

I thought the amputation scene was gross and gratuitous.  

I might be back next year, for the actors.  But I wanted them to just wrap it up.  The Handmaid's Tale was a concise story.  Not everything has to be drawn out for 4-8 seasons.  

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when Atwood wrote the book in 1985, GPS really wasn't part of the public vocabulary, so i doubt she would have thought of that, but who knows? if the show wants to take liberties like that ok, but it seems a bit gimmicky. 

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I've gotten used to the fact that Gilead has no issue in how Serena treats Offred, but I imagine she would have issues if they learned she threatened a child.

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1 hour ago, Trillian said:

I did find it oddly jarring that the intake officer said "Welcome to Ontario".  The only time I have ever heard a fellow Ontarian self-identify as such is in the hands of an American screenwriter.  We might identify with our city "Welcome to T'ronno" (translation: Toronto)  or magnanimously speak for the whole country, but we tend not to refer to ourselves by province.  It should have been "Welcome to Canada", especially when speaking to a foreign refugee. 

I was thinking maybe only Ontario was taking in Gileadean (?) refugees, hence them saying "Welcome to Ontario" vs Welcome to Canada, like it was a point of pride for Ontario vs the rest of Canada? I don't know. Just a musing.

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30 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

when Atwood wrote the book in 1985, GPS really wasn't part of the public vocabulary, so i doubt she would have thought of that, but who knows? if the show wants to take liberties like that ok, but it seems a bit gimmicky. 

Well a lot of things that are in the show weren't a thing back then. For example the cellphone the case worker gave Moira.

But I concede I was probably wrong about it. Especially since a GPS tracker would require some form of power source. I still think a NFC chip with a good enough range for checkpoints would be logical, but when are the Gileadians ever logical...

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3 hours ago, Trillian said:

Perfect! What with that, the huge Canadian flags everywhere, and the free healthcare, all that was missing was the Timmy's maple-glazed donut (yum) and a double-double (not that she would have known what that last one is). 

Hee. "Welcome to Canada. Here's your double-double."

 

Quote

I did find it oddly jarring that the intake officer said "Welcome to Ontario".  The only time I have ever heard a fellow Ontarian self-identify as such is in the hands of an American screenwriter.  We might identify with our city "Welcome to T'ronno" (translation: Toronto)  or magnanimously speak for the whole country, but we tend not to refer to ourselves by province.  It should have been "Welcome to Canada", especially when speaking to a foreign refugee. 

Yes, they would only say "Welcome to Ontario" if she was crossing in from another province, and it was made fairly clear that she entered Ontario directly from the US.

Refugees crossing into Canada have been in the news in the recent past, although they're refugees from third countries who are worried their claims would be denied if they remained in the States. The ones reported on have been crossing into Manitoba and Quebec. 

Luke listing Moira as a family member was a nice way to bring him full circle from his gross insinuations about June and Moira from early on in June and Luke's relationship.

Edited by Eyes High.
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2 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

Have you seen the 90s movie? It's baaaaaaad but you might actually appreciate the biggest plot change they made from the novel. 

Spoiler

Offred stabs the Commander in the throat and kills him just before the Eyes* come for her.

*The movie also confirms that those Eyes are Mayday.

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33 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Hee. "Welcome to Canada. Here's your double-double."

 

Yes, they would only say "Welcome to Ontario" if she was crossing in from another province, and it was made fairly clear that she entered Ontario directly from the US.

Refugees crossing into Canada have been in the news in the recent past, although they're refugees from third countries who are worried their claims would be denied if they remained in the States. The ones reported on have been crossing into Manitoba and Quebec. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but the reason people are crossing into Manitoba and Quebec is because the Ontario/US border is entirely water!

Even in the winter, we didn't hear about people crossing into Ontario.

Although way back when, my dad (who grew up on the Canadian side of Niagara Falls) used to walk across the Niagara river all the time to get to the US when it froze over in the winter. If they were going by foot they didn't bother with the official crossings - they'd just hike down to the bottom, walk across and then hike back up the other side.

Moira very clearly was not at the bottom of a gorge, but I can suspend disbelief enough to believe she was crossing frozen, snow-covered water (although that's really not what it looked like to me).

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9 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

It appears the ear cuffs are indeed tracking devices. I googled and it came up a lot in articles highlighting book v show.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Handmaid-Tale-Book-TV-Show-Differences-43466237/amp

 

I think some assume that they serve as tracking devices, but if they were then pretty much 85% of the Handmaids' activities would not be feasible/possible,

Certainly the Gilead Regime have made some pretty big blunders and dumb assumptions, but if they were tracking the ladies June, frankly, would have been snatched up long ago, especially when she began to leave the house in the middle of the night to visit Nick all those countless times. And certainly Emily/Ofglen would have been taken for being apart of MayDay, not for yet again getting labeled a dreaded "gender traitor".

It takes a good bit of suspending general belief to buy that Janine made it out of her new posting and stole her little girl back. If she was being tracked she should/would have been intercepted at the end of the street before she even got a block away.

I think the ear tags serve the same purpose as the ones you see on livestock on a farm or ranch, they are literal property tags, they do "track" the women as prized "walking wombs", but not their locations or anything so technologically advanced.

I could easily see them bearing a certain number for each Handmaid and there is a file on her specifically that the Regime have stashed away. These markings also would mean that even if the Handmaid tried to claim to be someone else, they would have the tag to reference.

Also, seeing the pretty primitive equipment that the "aunts" used to attach the tag, personally I don't see that being a logical or practical way for them to insert such a, presumably, sensitive and expensive piece.

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On 6/14/2017 at 5:56 PM, chocolatine said:

It's not unheard of for brutal regimes to nurse an injured "enemy" to health and then to execute them publicly to make an example of them.

I was only surprised that they did it to Janine because she was one of the few Handmaids who's given birth to a healthy baby under the Gilead regime. I thought they'd keep raping her in the hopes of producing more children, and just keep a much closer watch on her from now on.

James Connolly...Irish Rebellion leader....mortally wounded...April 24 1916...kept alive till May 12 1916...carried into the Kilmainham Jail courtyard on a stretcher...tied to a chair too week to stand bleeding and shot by firing squad. This event strengthed the Irish cause and was condemned by most other countries

Everything in the book happened somewhere sometime atwood said. I shudder to think of the sequel since more rotten things have happened since she wrote it

Edited by Stillhoping.
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The acting was very powerful but my logical side cant get over all the coincidences. Just me maybe...I can get into a drama or futuristic movie or mini series but when it becomes seasons my questions start. 

The claustrophobic feel of the first episodes were more believable and more like the book. The Moiria storyline is where they lost me. After her escape wearing aunt uniform and capture I think they would have maimed her and kept her for "breeding"...or more likely sent her to colonies or killed her. I cant believe they made her a Jezebel. I also find it hard to think she made yet another escape. .and got to Ontario from Boston? Coincidincyyyyyy?

I think Jasmine's stoning was well acted but poorly written.. The ex drug addict wasnt in "class" with Jasmine and didnt know her. In fact that character has bothered me anyhow...my.logical mind says how did they "cure" her addiction?

I wonder what season 2 will be...much Mayday ? It would be interesting to see a teal wifey or two banished to the "colonies"...SJ preferably haha. 

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3 minutes ago, Stillhoping said:

I think Jasmine's stoning was well acted but poorly written.. The ex drug addict wasnt in "class" with Jasmine and didnt know her. In fact that character has bothered me anyhow...my.logical mind says how did they "cure" her addiction?

Janine, not Jasmine.

I don't think a person would have to know Janine personally in order to object to stoning them to death, but maybe Ofglen 2.0 and Janine had gotten to know each other when they crossed paths doing errands.

I believe they 'cured' the addiction by forcibly detoxing her, eliminating the withdrawal symptoms that can make quitting drug use so difficult, and completely eliminated access to drugs. (I think the implication was that they drug the women at Jezebel's but I'd imagine Gilead would have the drugs pretty tightly controlled and Mayday would have more pressing problems than liberating the illegal drug supply). Then, they 'improved' (from Ofglen 2.0's view) her life which could eliminate some of the stressors driving her to use drugs in the first place.

Now, if it was me, living in Gilead would drive me to abuse any substance I could get my hands on, but the bottom line is that these substances are not readily accessible - particularly for handmaids. I think for Offglen 2.0, the combination of having no choice in the matter, being detoxed by force, having no access to the drugs, +/- a dash of brainwashing were all sufficient to 'cure' her. That's not to say that if she escapes Gilead, she wouldn't relapse. She might, or she might not, and a lot of that would depend on circumstances and access to drugs.

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Sorry Janine. 

The problem for me is that every objection I and others make regarding illogical choices are answered but with convoluted reasoning. For me a good dystopia or fantasy world shouldn't need fan fiction explanations...the writers and producers should fill in the gaps.

Why wouldnt addicts be Jezabels ? Drugs booze and cigarettes.Please dont say cause fertile.. Cause Moiria was fertile. Why were formerly high powered women given the "choice" to be Jezebels? 

It is up to the writers to create a logical world and create stories without so much obvious belief suspending luck. Now if they still have lotteries in Canada Moria should buy a ticket with the money they gave her. Lucky 

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Moira hadn't had a child, no way of knowing if she was fertile or not, since they don't do testing.

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3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Moira hadn't had a child, no way of knowing if she was fertile or not, since they don't do testing.

And this is a big question for me...it was my understanding from the show (it's been a while since I read the book and I don't own a copy to look it up, but I believe that Moira's situation was slightly different there?) that handmaid's were women who had had healthy children.  If Moira hadn't had a child, why would she be a handmaid?  

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Why wouldnt addicts be Jezabels ? Drugs booze and cigarettes.Please dont say cause fertile.. Cause Moiria was fertile. Why were formerly high powered women given the "choice" to be Jezebels? 

 

I am going to reply to you here:

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On 6/14/2017 at 8:47 AM, LaChavalina said:

I guess I'm going to be "that person" who points out that, for Moira to get from Boston area to Ontario, she must have taken a pretty roundabout route. There's also not really anywhere that one could "run" across the border into Ontario because, you know, bodies of water... It's a shame because that took me out of what I thought was otherwise a well-written, well-acted scene at the refugee agency.

 

The most direct route is keep going north through Vermont, there are plenty of places to cross into Canada.  They made a point of showing June and what's his name in Vermont when they tried to get to Canada.   

Edited by Lemons.
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On 6/14/2017 at 11:43 AM, catrox14 said:

I can buy Moira making it across the border. I figured she crossed a frozen pond into Canada.

There's dry land all along the border of Vermont and Canada. I'm sure Gideon will be building a wall soon enough!

I don't know why they skipped over Quebec.

what bugs me is that they interchange Cambridge and Boston.  At the beginning June lived in Cambridge.  Then when they went to the subway they were trying to get to Boston.  The guy was removing the sign that had said Arlington.  That would have put them in Boston already. Then a few episodes later they June had lived in the Back Bay which is in Boston, not Cambridge.  

Are they supposed to be living in Cambridge right now?  Is there a President?

Edited by Lemons.
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12 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

I think some assume that they serve as tracking devices, but if they were then pretty much 85% of the Handmaids' activities would not be feasible/possible,

Certainly the Gilead Regime have made some pretty big blunders and dumb assumptions, but if they were tracking the ladies June, frankly, would have been snatched up long ago, especially when she began to leave the house in the middle of the night to visit Nick all those countless times. And certainly Emily/Ofglen would have been taken for being apart of MayDay, not for yet again getting labeled a dreaded "gender traitor".

Just because they can track them doesn't mean they are, especially in the middle of the night and when they aren't even leaving the property.  My guess is if the writers of the show made them tracking devices, it's something they'll use once June goes missing.  And because it's gross, it's something we'll see June have cut off her ear at some point, to save her life.

I guess Moira's was removed for her Jezebel posting?  

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5 hours ago, Lemons said:

what bugs me is that they interchange Cambridge and Boston.  At the beginning June lived in Cambridge.  Then when they went to the subway they were trying to get to Boston.  The guy was removing the sign that had said Arlington.  That would have put them in Boston already. Then a few episodes later they June had lived in the Back Bay which is in Boston, not Cambridge.  

The Waterfords' house is supposed to be in Cambridge. When June and Moira went to the subway, they were escaping from the Red Center - the Handmaid "training" site - which wasn't necessarily in the same location as the house.

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My assumption with Jezebbels has always been less a "why would fertile women be there?" And more a "of course they've had a brothel from day 1". So I'm working under the assumption that they've always been recruiting for Jezebels because of course they don't expect all the men to follow all the rules so if a Handmaid comes across that seems more suitable for jezabels then the red center they ship her off. Moira was mouthy and spirited, but not part of an official resistance movement and very pretty and a little kinky. I imagine the "other place" she went was an interrogation center where perhaps she exhibited some traits that would work at Jezebels. A particular sense of humor or ability to code switch or just a sexual frankness. Something where they thought she could better serve the cause this way.

Ive also always thought, as both a reader and a watcher, that there is just a hell of a lot of stuff that the Commanders don't have a good plan for. Some of this may come from years of working in politics, but I always work under the assumption that the Commanders were a bunch of average guys who didn't think  beyond their fantasy.  So when there are logic holes in a plan I can think it's because this is not actually a well thought out idea.  Not many dystopian stories pick up when the world is still being built. They usually start when things are a generation or two in. With THT you're seeing stuff that doesn't make sense because everyone in the world is still working out the kinks. What happens to the daughters of the Commanders? Nobody knows yet. What happens if someone at Jezabels gets pregnant? Uhhh, we'll deal with that if it happens? Who's going to sit around and track HM GPS when half the population is forbidden from reading or using technology? Oh, good question. We'll address that at the next council meeting after we cut off someone's hand. The Commanders are in over their heads. 

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3 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

Ive also always thought, as both a reader and a watcher, that there is just a hell of a lot of stuff that the Commanders don't have a good plan for. Some of this may come from years of working in politics, but I always work under the assumption that the Commanders were a bunch of average guys who didn't think  beyond their fantasy.  So when there are logic holes in a plan I can think it's because this is not actually a well thought out idea.  Not many dystopian stories pick up when the world is still being built. They usually start when things are a generation or two in. With THT you're seeing stuff that doesn't make sense because everyone in the world is still working out the kinks.

This is how I've mostly viewed this too.  They're only a couple of years into this and memories of the before time are still pretty fresh.  There's a huge difference between having ideas about the society you want to build and figuring out all the specifics down to the last detail.  So a lot of this is still evolving as they figure out what works and what doesn't on a practical level.  There are going to be some obvious holes along the way they'll have to sort out.  Plus with something like Jezebels they're clearly acknowledging that at least a fair portion of the commanders don't want to give up everything from the time before so now you've got to figure out how to retain some element of that in secret too.  It's like the Waterfords removing the ceiling light fixture in the handmaid's room after original recipe Offred hung herself from it.   Despite all the other safeguards they took to try to limit that sort of thing, it probably didn't occur to them a handmaid would hang herself from it until she did it.  So now no more ceiling lights.

Since Moira hadn't had a child and presumably hadn't been having sex with men where such a thing was even a possibility, they probably figured it was worth a shot to try her out.  It's not like they're having a ton of luck with the other women they've relegated to this either.  Once she proved too troublesome to be a handmaid, it actually makes sense to me that they'd next try her out as a jezebel.  The whole setup is about male fantasies with women who can't turn them down.  Plenty of men have lesbian fantasies.

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I thought the season started very strong (first three episodes) and ended strong (last episode), with some solid times in between but also some weaker ones (Luke's episode). That pattern has reminded me of a teacher in high school who taught us to start writing an essay with a rough plan, then the introduction and the conclusion. The idea being that even if you don't have enough time to develop all you intended too, you'll start and end strongly, and won't forget any of the points you wanted to develop, even if the development might suffer somehow because of time constraints. It feels like the show runners were operating under the same guidelines.

I also have to thank the show and some posters here without whom I would never have realized that my TV screen could be programmed differently. Who would have thought that the best "program" to not miss any detail of The Handmaid's Tale would be "Soccer"!? Sad to see though that the times when we could adjust colors and brightness to taste have gone, and that now we have to chose between preprogrammed functions. Sadly, the same is true for hi-fis, and I miss working on treble and balance and what have you until I got the sound to feel just right.

Lastly, I'd like to applaud all the actors who've been part of the first season, especially those playing "baddies", as they brought enough nuances to their characters for me to be interested in them. Serena Joy, the Commander and Aunt Lydia, in particular, could have been so different played by other actors, and I'm very happy with how these characters were depicted.   

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9 hours ago, Lemons said:

The most direct route is keep going north through Vermont, there are plenty of places to cross into Canada.  They made a point of showing June and what's his name in Vermont when they tried to get to Canada.   

Correct. My boyfriend and I left St. Jean Sur Richelieu Quebec to go skiing at Jay Peak Vermont--we went through New Hampshire, Vermont (didn't go to Jay Peak, too high) and New York state, then back up into Ontario around Cornwall and back to Quebec--hitting no huge bodies of water, no border stops either. (This was almost 30 years ago, maybe it has changed)

We were on back roads meandering, only knew we were in the USA when the signs said so. I don't find it impossible at all that she would have made it to Ontario. We did this in an afternoon, and landed back at St. Jean before supper. 

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6 minutes ago, whoknowswho said:

Correct. My boyfriend and I left St. Jean Sur Richelieu Quebec to go skiing at Jay Peak Vermont--we went through New Hampshire, Vermont (didn't go to Jay Peak, too high) and New York state, then back up into Ontario around Cornwall and back to Quebec--hitting no huge bodies of water, no border stops either. (This was almost 30 years ago, maybe it has changed)

We were on back roads meandering, only knew we were in the USA when the signs said so. I don't find it impossible at all that she would have made it to Ontario. We did this in an afternoon, and landed back at St. Jean before supper. 

Cornwall is surrounded by water on the American side. There is literally nowhere to cross from the US to Southern Ontario that is not over water, though just on the Quebec side of Cornwall, there is a land border with the US. Perhaps Moira did go through Quebec and didn't realize it, though she would have at some point had to cross the St Lawrence into Ontario. For all we know, she had already been in Ontario (or elsewhere in Canada) for a while before she realized she was safe.

I would be surprised if the bridges between Canada and the US (Gilead) were still open - I would think both sides would be invested in closing those bridges. Makes it harder for Gilead to invade Canada, and harder for people to escape Gilead.

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It would be interesting to know just what areas of Gilead are considered completely settled into Gilead society, and where the frontier begins, as well as more information about the wastelands and uprisings, as well as the various camp locations. 

Just looking at the map though?  I'd think they'd most heavily patrol that New Hampshire/Quebec route, since it does make the most sense as an escape route, but that depends on whether or not the same kind of Gilead we've seen so far exists further inland or if right now, it's mostly a Boston/NY/DC strip of Gilead proper.  It is early, and it could still be quite a limited area that is under their total control.

I don't know if they would destroy the bridges, but they would damn sure have patrols on all of them.

We know Chicago had an uprising put down, so?

Moira presumably still had her car for most of it, and the checkpoints could have thinned out after Jezebel's, which could have been kept on the edge of things for very good reason, less chance of the wrong people knowing about it.

Still, the water...I know at the time I felt like she could have been in Canada for a while and not known it though.  Winter skies, overcast, snow, probably not much sun to use as a guide.  Oh well.  Who knows?

Edited by Umbelina.
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I liked the first 4 episodes a great deal. I did not care for the extra story lines of Luke and Nick--and the Commander and Serena's episode particularly either. I guess I'm sort of a purist...this show was so hard hitting for the first 4, and then it got too gooey in the middle.  I don't want a love story--this should not be a love story.  

Moira I loved, and would if anything, have preferred a full episode dedicated to her. Maybe next year it will happen, but I'm not sure I'll be there for another season. To me--it should have ended this season where the book ended.  I did like the last 2 episodes, but many things left me asking why--like why didn't the Waterfords tell whoever was taking June away that she was pregnant.  

I actually liked the musical scores, I think I understood why they used the music they did, because in the book music was important to the last part of the story, so I have no trouble with it. 

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19 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Cornwall is surrounded by water on the American side. There is literally nowhere to cross from the US to Southern Ontario that is not over water, though just on the Quebec side of Cornwall, there is a land border with the US. Perhaps Moira did go through Quebec and didn't realize it, though she would have at some point had to cross the St Lawrence into Ontario. For all we know, she had already been in Ontario (or elsewhere in Canada) for a while before she realized she was safe.

I would be surprised if the bridges between Canada and the US (Gilead) were still open - I would think both sides would be invested in closing those bridges. Makes it harder for Gilead to invade Canada, and harder for people to escape Gilead.

I don't remember where we crossed back into Ontario except that we went from NY state to Ont and back to Quebec--there would have been a bridge somewhere, but I remember we went through Cornwall, because Mom used to live there. I'm aware of the water--the locks, etc. We lived in Hawkesbury and the Carillon dam/bridge wasn't terribly far from us. (I was a kid, I don't remember a whole lot of driving into Quebec)

All I'm telling you is the amount of provinces and states we went through in an easy afternoon of driving.  It's possible she could have done it as long as she could have crossed a bridge somehow.

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I do want another season, especially if they really do expand the world now.  I want to see the camps, the uprisings, I want to know where the resistance lines are, and I especially want to know what happens in the future for Gilead.

Basically, I'd like to see the epilogue of the book play out.

I don't think it's too much of a spoiler for non book readers to know that they ended the book exactly where the show ended, even used Atwood's words for June's voice over.  However, there was an epilogue included in the book, and I assume (without saying what that was) that that is where next season will go/explore.  I've always wanted to know, so hopefully, they will show us, while listening carefully to Atwood about it.

Ever since I read that speculation (pure speculation) of Sepinwall's though?  I keep thinking he may be right.  They may send June back to the Commander's house as part of Eye or Mayday spying.  Nick's still working for that one devout true believer guy as a spy after all, and he may or may not be Mayday, speaking only of the show here and the hints they've given us pretty much match the book's.  That would keep the Gilead we know on screen with June still there, so ??? 

ETA thinking about it, it would have to be an EYE operation wouldn't it?  If it was Mayday it would be risky as hell, but why would the EYE's use a woman?  knots...

Major book spoiler, so don't read if you don't want spoilers.  I really, really, really want to see

Spoiler

Fred executed too.

Edited by Umbelina.
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