Jump to content

S01.E07: The Conclusion 2017.05.19

Quote

As survivors and victims' families seek closure, they face frustrating law enforcement bureaucracy and a legislative fight with their archdiocese.

0

Share Post


Link to post

That was incredibly bleak. I hope the victims find some kind of peace.

I hope this show and the exposure it brings will move this case forward. It seems like there are people out there that can answer some questions and  help solve this.

As far as the Catholic Church goes, they have much to answer for. I can't even form a response I am so angry. These men that covered this up are still in power. Today. I just don't get it. This goes so far beyond what the church teaches and what any religion practices that I am in total disbelief.

11

Share Post


Link to post

I grew up believing in religion. This show is basically why I left. It is so corrupt and evil. God is supposed to be love. But there is no accountability or payment for the evil these people sow. It makes me sick and sad that we are taught to trust these people and then there is no punishment for the hurt and lifelong mental suffering they cause. I never want to be hateful or bitter but after watching this I just want to curse.  Fuck.

17

Share Post


Link to post

The extent of this abuse web and cover-up is truly staggering. The whole city was just a big dirty boys' club.

It seems to me that

Spoiler

Edgar Davidson and the other guy are the likely perps, probably acting on the orders of Maskell. Apparently the DNA from the cigarette butt does not belong to Maskell.

Koob didn't have a motive that we know of, and it seemed to me that he genuinely loved Cathy. It's odd that Cathy never mentioned the abuse to him, but maybe she thought it was better not to involve him.

It's a shame Russell never talked, she must have known a lot more than she let on.

The whole series is really a tribute to Gemma, Abbie, and the survivors. 

10

Share Post


Link to post

That moment... "Those FUCKERS!"

I'm going to need time to process this all. I had to take a break from watching it last night, because I knew I needed to not go to bed with it all in my head, and I'm glad I did that.

So much unnecessary pain and hurt. Truly, those FUCKERS....

7

Share Post


Link to post

This was too heartbreaking/stomach churning and I had to quit halfway through episode 3 in favor of catching up through forums and articles. Unsolved cases get under my skin in a crawly way.

I actually let the series play through unwatched so Netflix can notch my viewer stats. It's so well made and worthwhile and I want to give whatever small encouragement I can to Netflix to continue supporting nonfiction series.

6

Share Post


Link to post

It doesn't surprise me at all that Sister Russell said nothing after what happened to Sister Cathy. I'm sure the two priests showing up at their apartment was frightening, and the fact that this sort of abuse was happening at all would shake devout people like those nuns right to the core.

It's insane to think how Maskell was able to consolidate his power- chaplin for both the state cops and the city cops- he's essentially a mob boss. Given the way he picked the vulnerable girls, he probably used cops in a similar way-found out who in power liked teen girls and how that could be manipulated, found out who could be intimidated. Sister Cathy was probably killed by someone under Maskell's control- if one imagines him as a mob boss, he put a hit out on her. He's got the cops in his back pocket and the Church in his back pocket, who is going to stop him?

Joyce Malecki is also tragic- I have to imagine that her murder is related, somehow, to this consolidated power- it's just too much of a coincidence that Maskell was her parish priest and she lived so close to the rectory. Him sending them a card after her funeral- he knows their name, he knows them. He was a collector of information.  Her brothers asking for basic updates and getting nothing- just terrible. I'm hoping this series gets something going for that family.

 

The women of this series touched me- for their bravery and their intelligence. My mother was born in 1951, which makes her roughly the same age as the students at Keough. These women just reminded me of my mother and her friends- they've lived a whole bunch of life, are retired but are still full of energy. My mother isn't out there trying to solve homicides, but she's of this generation. 

22

Share Post


Link to post
On 5/20/2017 at 5:49 PM, Lord Donia said:

This was too heartbreaking/stomach churning and I had to quit halfway through episode 3 in favor of catching up through forums and articles. Unsolved cases get under my skin in a crawly way.

I actually let the series play through unwatched so Netflix can notch my viewer stats. It's so well made and worthwhile and I want to give whatever small encouragement I can to Netflix to continue supporting nonfiction series.

I don't see myself making it through this (I had to tag out of Handmaid's Tale and that's fiction), but I'm going to take your cue and let Netflix cycle through it a few times.

I just read the HuffPo article, and maybe this comes up in the documentary, but this really stuck out:

Quote

Hoskins started by seeking out more women who might have been victims of sexual abuse at Keough. In September 2013, she logged onto the official Facebook page for Keough alumnae and asked whether anyone knew of such abuse taking place at the school in the late 1960s and early 1970s. 

The page started buzzing. Women who had been silent for years came forward with stories of abuse by Maskell and others. When Hoskins mentioned Cesnik’s murder, she said “all hell broke loose.” Some Keough alums accused her of launching a “witch hunt,” and school administrators kicked her off the Facebook page for posting “inappropriate” content.

People should really think about *why* they're accusing someone of a witch hunt these days, especially under these kinds of circumstances.

ETA: I've made it much further than I expected, can't stop watching.

...and I'm annoyed that we all know this case will never be considered as desperately important as the case of what's his name from Making a Murderer, or Adnan. The outrage won't be there. You know, it's just raped and murdered women. 

Edited by kieyra.
17

Share Post


Link to post

I wanted a conclusion but I don't think we will ever get that with the church. I just hope that the women that dealt with this horror have found peace somewhere. And I love that Sister Cathy was there for them.  The fact that these women remember her light and her soul, makes me sad. When her sister talked about her is when I cried. I don't think we will ever kmow who killed her. But I'm glad I found out about this amazing soul. 

7

Share Post


Link to post

Almost through the final episode. The amount of stonewalling and bullshit (and probably sheer bureaucratic incompetence) is amazing.

(Ok, sadly I bet a lot of it is incompetence, especially with regards to misplaced evidence. I'm not saying docs weren't tampered with, I just never underestimate the power of human laziness.)

That scene where the current Baltimore police boss realizes the documentary makers already know about the cigarette? Priceless. 

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

This documentary has reminded me of something I rarely think about. My grandfather was an angry, miserable, cynical drunk most of the time. I never knew why, just grew up with him ruining holidays or my birthday or whatever with drunken outbursts or picking fights with my father. He was an alcoholic at a very early age, including during his service in WWII. He died about fifteen years ago. A couple of years back now, my father admitted that he thought my grandfather had been abused by Catholic priests. I'm not sure what the basis for this theory was (other than my grandfather having been an altar boy), but I can tell you that any religion in my family halted back at my grandfather's generation. My father died a few months ago, also an addict and generally pretty fucked up (double felon) and dysfunctional--his mother died young and after that all he had was his screwed-up alcoholic father. I had no real relationship with him because of the addiction issue.

But if my father was right about my grandfather, then you can see how the damage just gets passed down along the generations.

12

Share Post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, kieyra said:

But if my father was right about my grandfather, then you can see how the damage just gets passed down along the generations.

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

3

Share Post


Link to post
1 hour ago, kieyra said:

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

I actually thought that he was trying very hard to think up a plausible answer to what was being asked of him. I thought he was quilty, and was thisclose to admitting it, but could not bring himself to do it. Maybe his brain was a little pickled from alcohol, but not enough for him to not know what he did.

3

Share Post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, Lord Donia said:

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

My family is also very small and seemed to take steps to run from their pasts, criss-crossing the country in the process. Jean had that support network of her huge family. But that doesn't disregard your point--it seems like her family had no clue until the memories started unraveling for her; they were just there to catch her while someone else might have fallen into the abyss.

1

Share Post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Arynm said:

I actually thought that he was trying very hard to think up a plausible answer to what was being asked of him. I thought he was quilty, and was thisclose to admitting it, but could not bring himself to do it. Maybe his brain was a little pickled from alcohol, but not enough for him to not know what he did.

Ok. Like I said, I'm interested in hearing different takes for sure. He looked like a stroke victim--but I don't actually know what a stroke victim looks like. Whatever was going on with his eyes. (I also know that having a stroke isn't the same as dementia, which it also seemed like he had.) But I have very little experience with the elderly. 

I did have the vaguest sense that when he said "I had nothing to do with it", that he was reciting from a script in his head, almost by reflex. But he didn't seem that unconvincing to me. Some questions were just problematic, especially when they'd ask convoluted questions about whether he had tried to make people think he was involved when he really wasn't--I was left wondering whether he'd really paid attention all the way to the end of the question, or just said "yeah" when he thought a response was expected.

4

Share Post


Link to post

Anyone else who saw Spotlight notice that Richard Sipe was featured in The Keepers?

He is an ex priest who started studying priests who abuse children.  They used his formulas to determine how many priests in Boston might be involved, based on the total number of priests in the Archdiocese.  And figured out that 13 was too low, he estimated 90 and I think they ended up with a figure in the high 80s. 

He wasn't seen in Spotlight, but was played by Richard Jenkins in phone conversations with the reporters.   John Slattery as Ben Bradlee Jr referred to him as a hippie shacked up with an ex nun.

Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I watched Spotlight again last night, and in the conversation with Mark Ruffalo's character,  Sipe mentions that he started out in Baltimore. 

I just found it interesting that his work is being used in so many of these abuse cases.  

8

Share Post


Link to post

The Freedom of Information Act stonewalling is so incredibly frustrating and I hope somehow this documentary stirs an outrage and provides SOMETHING to the Malecki family. The postscript that Don Malecki had died still waiting for answers shattered my heart, how it haunted him all of those years, identifying his sister's body and wanting an inch of justice. Just disgusts me.

This was heartbreaking to watch---I hope there is truth in what Jean said about the victims' voices finally breaking through.

11

Share Post


Link to post

They're in Maryland maybe contacting Elijah Cummings to look into why the docs they want are taking so long?  I know sometimes people do ask their representatives in Congress to help with issues like this. 

I don't know why the FBI would care if they out Baltimore Police suppressing evidence in a murder.  Justice Dept has been on Baltimore's ass for a long time for the corruption. 

1

Share Post


Link to post

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

11

Share Post


Link to post
2 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

Literally every time I've googled something about some tangential aspect of the documentary, I've found some other piece of *current day* info about the abuse scandals and the church's half-assed methods of dealing with them. Including multiple people, clergy and laity, who have stepped down from victim advisory panels in disgust, or claim to have been pushed out for whistleblowing. Not 20 years ago--right now.

2

Share Post


Link to post
17 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist who has done extensive research on priests and sexuality.  The Boston Globe's Spotlight team used him in their reporting.  According to Sipe, the culture of celibacy and repressed sexuality is the main problem:

Quote

[Sipe] emphasizes that enforced celibacy makes the priesthood a very different social milieu from the world outside. Priests become sexually frustrated, so some turn to children in desperation. "There's strong psychological research showing that sexual deprivation can lead a person to turn to children," says Sipe.

And boys have always been far more accessible to priests than girls — on camping trips and athletic fields, in classrooms and as altar boys.

Many of those who became priests in the past entered boys' schools or seminaries as virgins in their mid-teens. In such cases, "they have no sexual orientation that they know of, they're immature and uneducated about sex," says Leslie Lothstein, director of psychology at the Institute of Living in Hartford, Conn., which has treated many abusive priests.

Young priests are disproportionately placed in youth ministries, "and they see all these exciting, attractive kids. They're vulnerable and start to experiment, the way a teenager might. It's opportunistic sex," Lothstein says. "Their rationalization is that they've preserved their chastity because they've not had sex with adults, and nobody gets pregnant."

Although recent reports focus on boys, "many priests are having sex with married women. It's severely underreported," adds Lothstein. And plenty of girls have been targeted, too, Sipe says.

I can see how this would be a huge problem for priests who were ordained before the 1960s. They were more likely to go straight from high school to seminary with no sexual experience. Add in a culture where pedophilia isn't talked about and the long-term effects on children aren't understood, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Edited by IndianPaintbrush.
3

Share Post


Link to post

If only "The Wire" had spent a season on this! Because it's looking like the Catholic Church is just as powerful and corrupt as drug lords and dirty cops. Maybe it would have provided a little fictional justice for the abused and murdered. I have no hope for the real thing.

9

Share Post


Link to post

If only "The Wire" had spent a season on this! Because it's looking like the Catholic Church is just as powerful and corrupt as drug lords and dirty cops. Maybe it would have provided a little fictional justice for the abused and murdered. I have no hope for the real thing.

OMG I was thinking the SAME thing yesterday! If only David Simon would write something about this for HBO.

2

Share Post


Link to post
On 5/22/2017 at 9:54 PM, Lord Donia said:

 

On 5/22/2017 at 9:14 PM, kieyra said:

But if my father was right about my grandfather, then you can see how the damage just gets passed down along the generations.

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

 

Even sadder, I believe Friday (5/26) is the tenth anniversary of her husband's passing.  

Just saw this online.  I don't know if it's meant to help, or if it's just the police way of saying "fill this out, we'll get back to you".

But at least they're aware the heat is on. 

http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/05/the-keepers-baltimore-police-create-online-sex-offense-form.html

0

Share Post


Link to post

So lawyers out there. How much of the church's response is out of fear of litigation? As soon as they admit their wrongdoing, that's hundreds, possibly thousands of lawsuits, no? I mean, they're obviously not going to do the right thing for moral reasons (sadly). Maybe the bad PR is less of a problem than the millions of dollars they stand to lose.

All this to say the Catholic church in Baltimore is extremely messed up. How many hundreds of lives did they ruin trying to cover their own asses? This kind of story seems to repeat itself everywhere and I always find it appalling.

2

Share Post


Link to post

I still don't think it's that much of a stretch for the two cases to be related. Joyce Malecki's case didn't get as much time, but I think it was more than just Gemma and Abby's research that brought it together. Ryan White, in this interview, mentions how close Joyce and her family lived to where Maskell lived and abused children. Her brothers walked past that house every day to go to school.

Even if Maskell wasn't directly involved, it is a tremendous coincidence  that both women disappeared from the same neighbourhood within 4 days. It might just be that it's a reflection of something very, very rotten in Baltimore. 

4

Share Post


Link to post

As the series progressed I became less convinced that Sister Cathy's murder was linked to the abuse she was intending to fight at the school.  Not ruling it out but there appeared to be elements of sexual mutilation to the crime which in my mind don't fit with a murder that's simply about shutting someone up....??  

Did I read too much into the sexual elements of her murder??  This seemed to be hinted at but not really focused on during the episodes??

Overall this was a gut wrenchingly sad thing to watch....my heart goes out to all the victims of that horrible man.....and the many other victims of the Catholic church....using people's faith to abuse them is absolutely abhorrent and then refusing to take action when the abuse surfaces is about as unGodly as a human could possible behave.  What a disgrace.

They were children.....

3

Share Post


Link to post
On 5/24/2017 at 8:37 PM, BellyLaughter said:

As the series progressed I became less convinced that Sister Cathy's murder was linked to the abuse she was intending to fight at the school.  Not ruling it out but there appeared to be elements of sexual mutilation to the crime which in my mind don't fit with a murder that's simply about shutting someone up....??  

Did I read too much into the sexual elements of her murder??  This seemed to be hinted at but not really focused on during the episodes??

Overall this was a gut wrenchingly sad thing to watch....my heart goes out to all the victims of that horrible man.....and the many other victims of the Catholic church....using people's faith to abuse them is absolutely abhorrent and then refusing to take action when the abuse surfaces is about as unGodly as a human could possible behave.  What a disgrace.

They were children.....

I'm afraid to ask but...there was sexual mutilation to Sister Cathy's body? When did they say that in the documentary? It is a distinct possibility that I missed it because after a while all the sexual abuse that was uncovered kind of all melted together into one monolith of horrifying fucked-upness that I was like oh my god what next? How much more depraved can Maskell and his ilk get? It's like a dark bottomless pit of monstrosity to the point where he and the other men involved seemed so incredibly evil as to not even be human (although it can be argued that humans are the greatest evil so maybe they seemed all too human at the basest level).

I do have to say that throughout the documentary, while I was riveted and horrified by the possibility that Sister Cathy was murdered to silence her, I also kept wondering what if yes, she was trying to fight the abuse going on at the school and Maskell and others did want to shut her up but what if actually all this time her murderer was just some random sicko? I did have the feeling throughout watching the doc that this is a crime that can be solved and eventually will be solved.

1

Share Post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, pamplemousse said:

I'm afraid to ask but...there was sexual mutilation to Sister Cathy's body? When did they say that in the documentary?

Wasn't it just Gerry and his weird "They handed me her vagina" story? I'm not sure if it was supposed to be inferred that the cops found it removed from the body or if THEY had it removed to show Gerry, or something...?

1

Share Post


Link to post
2 hours ago, rubinia said:

Wasn't it just Gerry and his weird "They handed me her vagina" story? I'm not sure if it was supposed to be inferred that the cops found it removed from the body or if THEY had it removed to show Gerry, or something...?

Oh, I took that as it was possibly removed by the coroner for examination and the cops brought it in and showed it to him as a shock tactic? IDK that whole bit was very odd and at first I thought he said vagina when he meant uterus because he compared it to looking like a heart wrapped up in paper, but I really don't know because it was so weird. I'm not discounting his story because cops back then probably used all kinds of tactics that were messed up, the whole thing is just very strange.

2

Share Post


Link to post
5 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

I'm afraid to ask but...there was sexual mutilation to Sister Cathy's body? When did they say that in the documentary? It is a distinct possibility that I missed it because after a while all the sexual abuse that was uncovered kind of all melted together into one monolith of horrifying fucked-upness that I was like oh my god what next? How much more depraved can Maskell and his ilk get? It's like a dark bottomless pit of monstrosity to the point where he and the other men involved seemed so incredibly evil as to not even be human (although it can be argued that humans are the greatest evil so maybe they seemed all too human at the basest level).

I do have to say that throughout the documentary, while I was riveted and horrified by the possibility that Sister Cathy was murdered to silence her, I also kept wondering what if yes, she was trying to fight the abuse going on at the school and Maskell and others did want to shut her up but what if actually all this time her murderer was just some random sicko? I did have the feeling throughout watching the doc that this is a crime that can be solved and eventually will be solved.

I was confused about the nature of her murder not only because of Jerry's bizarre story but it was mentioned twice that at the scene her skirt was pulled up and her top pulled down.... 

It seems to be hinted at but perhaps as you suggested with the horrifying stories of sexual abuse maybe it all started to melt into one for me and that's where my confusion lies??

As for Jerry's story about the "vagina"...that was the part that made me do a complete 180 on him and his relationship with Sister Cathy.  I am left wondering if it was more one sided than he portrays....

0

Share Post


Link to post

Re. the stuff in the newspaper- absolutely no way to say it was actually Sister Cathy's or even a human vagina or even that it happened at all. It's definitely weird. When police officers are trying to pin something on someone, especially when they are told that they have to get this solved and also, they can't investigate certain people or groups of people due to their connections, stuff gets crazy. 

Re. it being one sided for Gerry and Cathy- those letters she wrote to him were very intense. 

6

Share Post


Link to post
On 5/22/2017 at 6:14 PM, kieyra said:

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

 

When Edgar first was interviewed it seemed obvious to me that he was not mentally competent. I don't think the film makers should have included him unless the whole point was to show that he wasn't some one that would be able to give reliable information.

3

Share Post


Link to post

I continue to think about this series. I wonder about the title, and what it means to the creator. Is it for the secret keepers--the young women (and young men) abused under the church's watch? Is is for Abbie and Gemma, who are keeping Cathy's name and the horrors that happened on people's minds, and who are keeping records of everything, so no one forgets? Is it for the grown women and men now, the abuse survivors, who are keeping watch over the church--saying, "I see you for all you are"--and trying to keep it accountable?

1

Share Post


Link to post

I wonder if maybe Edgar Davidson killed Joyce Malecki and there's no real connection between that murder and Sister Cathy's. The necklace might be nothing more than a red herring (I tend to agree with the recap that the green stone being Marilyn Cesnik's fiancé's birthstone was a stretch). I find Billy Schmidt the most plausible suspect, especially since his nephew had such a definite memory of having been there when they dumped her body. I'm frustrated they were unable to make a connection between Fr. Maskell and the Schmidt family, though. And that the eldest Schmidt son was named Bobby but they never drew a connection between that name and "Father Bob."

Sadly I don't think this case will ever be solved. And much like "Making A Murderer," it basically just made me want to reach into the TV and punch a lot of people. 

5

Share Post


Link to post
On 5/22/2017 at 10:38 PM, kieyra said:

Ok. Like I said, I'm interested in hearing different takes for sure. He looked like a stroke victim--but I don't actually know what a stroke victim looks like. Whatever was going on with his eyes. (I also know that having a stroke isn't the same as dementia, which it also seemed like he had.) But I have very little experience with the elderly. 

I did have the vaguest sense that when he said "I had nothing to do with it", that he was reciting from a script in his head, almost by reflex. But he didn't seem that unconvincing to me. Some questions were just problematic, especially when they'd ask convoluted questions about whether he had tried to make people think he was involved when he really wasn't--I was left wondering whether he'd really paid attention all the way to the end of the question, or just said "yeah" when he thought a response was expected.

I'm a nurse, and to be honest Edgar might have had a stroke and/or dementia, but what he looked most like to me was someone schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder.  He has a flat affect (facial expression), and he's reluctant to make eye contact.  That's just my take.  I used to deal with a lot of patients with mental illness in general (my hospital was one of only a couple with a psych ward and when those patient's got medically ill they sent them to my floor) and a number of elderly patients with mental illness, and even when they just showed him walking from afar, that was the first thought that popped into my mind when they showed Edgar.  I might be wrong, I am in no way able to diagnose any illness, especially not through the TV, but that's just the impression I got.

On 5/24/2017 at 11:41 AM, IndianPaintbrush said:

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist who has done extensive research on priests and sexuality.  The Boston Globe's Spotlight team used him in their reporting.  According to Sipe, the culture of celibacy and repressed sexuality is the main problem:

I can see how this would be a huge problem for priests who were ordained before the 1960s. They were more likely to go straight from high school to seminary with no sexual experience. Add in a culture where pedophilia isn't talked about and the long-term effects on children aren't understood, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I also don't think we can forget that many of those abusive Priests, were also victims of abuse themselves.  Priests were almost always alter boys when they were kids.  It was one hell of a sick cycle.  Priest abuses alter boy, alter boy never tells, he gets older and goes to seminary, becomes a priest, and then abuses one of his alter boys.  It's an unfortunate fact that often those abused go on to become abusers.  One of the former Priests in Spotlight tells them that he never "hurt" the boys because he was abused himself.

I'm sure Sipe is right, that celibacy does play a part, but I think anytime you have a organization that tells you that certain members are the gateway to God and salvation and you don't have the right to question them (which is exactly what kids were taught about Priests when my mom was growing up and she'd be a contemporary with the Keough girls), you are just going to attract a certain amount of people who get off on wielding power over others.  Then you put them in charge over vulnerable populations (kids) and you making a recipe for abuse, whether or not celibacy is in the mix.  Just my opinion.  Because abuse isn't always about sex, a lot of times it's about power.

On 5/26/2017 at 5:52 PM, pamplemousse said:

Oh, I took that as it was possibly removed by the coroner for examination and the cops brought it in and showed it to him as a shock tactic? IDK that whole bit was very odd and at first I thought he said vagina when he meant uterus because he compared it to looking like a heart wrapped up in paper, but I really don't know because it was so weird. I'm not discounting his story because cops back then probably used all kinds of tactics that were messed up, the whole thing is just very strange.

That whole story was really weird, and he told as if it wasn't bizarre.  I wonder if his memory has taken something that really happened and conflated it into this weird bizarre story over the years.  I wonder if the police did show him autopsy photos or maybe even threw a wrapped up piece of meat on the desk and said something like, "This is what the coroner is doing to your girlfriend right now, cutting her up."  I can't imagine cops even during that time period taking a real body part and showing it to a suspect.

Also did anyone else think that Cathy was telling Gerry in the letter they read, in a round about way that she wasn't pregnant.  She starts the letter by telling him (paraphrased) that she's moody because her period just came...ten days late.  I don't know about anyone else, but I don't usually include the state of my menstrual cycle in romantic letters.  Perhaps she had spoken to him before and told him she was late, and this was a way to let him know she wasn't pregnant.  This might be part of reason Gerry conflated the story about uterus/vagina wrapped in newspaper.  He was already preoccupied thinking about Cathy's reproductive organs, then she's murdered, and the police show him...something and his brain makes it the organ that might have given birth to his kids.  I know that's a lot of supposition, but it's just where my mind went.

Also, while I don't think that he directly had anything to do with her murder, I do think she might have told him about the abuse.  Sometimes he does seem to protest a little too much that she never told him.  He also might have told one of his superiors, probably even in a honest attempt to help, but instead of helping it got back around to Maskell and then Cathy winds up dead.  If he feels guilty that he might have contributed to her death, that's maybe why he thinks he remembers this crazy story as a way to torture himself.

7

Share Post


Link to post
6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wonder if maybe Edgar Davidson killed Joyce Malecki and there's no real connection between that murder and Sister Cathy's.

I will say that I found the evidence put forth in the show that the murders of Sister Cathy and Joyce Malecki were related to be tenuous at best.  As far as I could tell, that theory is based on only 2 things: that the two women disappeared within days of each other and that Joyce's family received a condolence card from Father Maskell.

Baltimore is a good sized city and I think that 2 women disappearing within days of each other, while worth a look, is not damning evidence.  Also, didn't the Maleckis live close to Keogh?  If so, it seems completely reasonable that Father Maskell would have had at least a passing acquaintance with the family and a religious leader sending a condolence card to someone they every vaguely know is hardly unheard of.

I'm not saying I do NOT think that the two cases are related--only that I don't see conclusive evidence that they are.

3

Share Post


Link to post

First: FUCK the FUCKING catholic church, GODDAMN.  I don't have enough caps for this rage.

On 5/21/2017 at 4:45 PM, kieyra said:

...and I'm annoyed that we all know this case will never be considered as desperately important as the case of what's his name from Making a Murderer, or Adnan. The outrage won't be there. You know, it's just raped and murdered women. 

But all of these cases dealt with murdered women...?

On 5/22/2017 at 6:14 PM, kieyra said:

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

I definitely read at least part of his responses like that.  He seems not totally there anymore, and I'm not sure what they were hoping to convey with a line of questioning which was basically "So we think the murderer drove with two feet. Did you drive using two feet?"

On 5/22/2017 at 6:54 PM, Lord Donia said:

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

She was one of the lucky ones, though.  I was really happy that we got to see how her husband was all "no, you're not an evil slutty person, this was abuse that you didn't choose to have happen to you and of course I love you anyway."  Awww.  (which just made it more obvious that he had died since he was in none of the talking heads)

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wonder if maybe Edgar Davidson killed Joyce Malecki and there's no real connection between that murder and Sister Cathy's. The necklace might be nothing more than a red herring (I tend to agree with the recap that the green stone being Marilyn Cesnik's fiancé's birthstone was a stretch). I find Billy Schmidt the most plausible suspect, especially since his nephew had such a definite memory of having been there when they dumped her body. I'm frustrated they were unable to make a connection between Fr. Maskell and the Schmidt family, though. And that the eldest Schmidt son was named Bobby but they never drew a connection between that name and "Father Bob."

Sadly I don't think this case will ever be solved. And much like "Making A Murderer," it basically just made me want to reach into the TV and punch a lot of people. 

That's the part I can't figure out... if Billy was gay (and never catholic, so probably not a gay conversion "therapy" sort of thing), then why would he have been involved with Maskell?  Unless it was through his friend Skippy?  When did they start hating on the church and storing creepy attic mannequins, was it since always or after a triggering event?  If the former I can't see how he would have had anything to do with the murder.  I have a hard time believing the nephew's memory, since that seems completely contradictory to the other evidence.  Too many holes here...

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I will say that I found the evidence put forth in the show that the murders of Sister Cathy and Joyce Malecki were related to be tenuous at best.  As far as I could tell, that theory is based on only 2 things: that the two women disappeared within days of each other and that Joyce's family received a condolence card from Father Maskell.

Baltimore is a good sized city and I think that 2 women disappearing within days of each other, while worth a look, is not damning evidence.  Also, didn't the Maleckis live close to Keogh?  If so, it seems completely reasonable that Father Maskell would have had at least a passing acquaintance with the family and a religious leader sending a condolence card to someone they every vaguely know is hardly unheard of.

I'm not saying I do NOT think that the two cases are related--only that I don't see conclusive evidence that they are.

Also there was the thing that their cars were both obviously dumped in the same prominent fashion.  I think they were both last seen at malls, too.  If I was a conspiracy theorist*, I'd say they killed Cathy to shut her up, then killed Joyce to just make sure it looked like a random serial killer or something and she ended up as the collateral damage.  

*(present OBVIOUS conspiratorial coverups of child sex abuse notwithstanding, obvs.  Ugh, fuck the church.)

4

Share Post


Link to post

I think Billy and Skippy were targets of opportunity.  Two low-lifes across the hall when someone is murdered in anger and a body needs to be moved. The car was left in a panic because I don't think Billy was the brightest bulb (or, possibly, sober.)

0

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

I have a hard time believing the nephew's memory, since that seems completely contradictory to the other evidence.

Well, Sharon having a memory of her parents fighting and her father saying he'd killed someone is one thing. That's the kind of childhood memory I would find somewhat questionable. But Brian's memory of actually being there and going with them to dump the body while his uncle distracted him shooting guns? That a much more detailed and distinct memory than just hearing a conversation when he was a kid. He was there. I don't know why he'd have such an elaborate false memory. Given all of Billy's behavior afterwards I'd say the whole thing adds up.

2

Share Post


Link to post

@OtterMommy, both my husband and I thought Cathy was delicately letting him know a pregnancy was no longer in play.

19 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Baltimore is a good sized city and I think that 2 women disappearing within days of each other, while worth a look, is not damning evidence.

In another post, I mentioned there were three Baltimore girls gone missing in a two year period  (Malecki, Pamela Lynn Conyers and Gay Montayne) as well as Sister Cathy, and the cops were supposedly looking into connections (grist enough for a second season):

"Four days after Cesnik’s disappearance, a 20-year-old woman named Joyce Helen Malecki went missing. According to the Baltimore Sun, Malecki had left for a date with a friend on the evening of November 11, and on the 12th, her abandoned car was found at an empty gas station in Odenton. On November 13, Malecki’s body was found in a nearby river by two deer hunters. The autopsy revealed she was stabbed and choked and her hands were bound behind her with a chord. At the time, police were unable to link the two cases.

On October 16, 1970, 16-year-old Pamela Lynn Conyers disappeared after driving to the Hurundale Mall in Glen Burie in her family’s Dodge Monaco. Four days later, her body was found in a wooded area of Maryland.

In September 1971, high school junior Grace Elizabeth “Gay” Montayne was found beaten to death over 30 miles from her home.

On May 4, 2017, Baltimore County police reportedly said they were “exploring the possible connections between Cesnik’s death” and those of Malecki, Conyers, and Montayne. All four young women went missing in roughly the same time period."

http://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/05/sister-catherine-cesnik-the-keepers-netflix-victim-murder-case-sexual-allegations-maskell/

From a contemporaneous news story (if you click on the link, there are descriptions of the state of her body, so just a heads-up):

"Officials at Franklin Senior High reportedly were told by two classmates of ihe murder victim that they saw her get into a dark blue or green car on the school parking lot Monday night...Supporting the report of the stranger approaching the high school girls, although apparently unknown to her parents, a younger sister of the Montanye girl said the slaying victim received a call Monday afternoon from a woman who asked her to model in a fashion show, according to police."

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/82064719/

A female accomplice? (god, that modeling job lure is so poignant and horrific).

Edited by film noire.
0

Share Post


Link to post

Huh. @film noire's post made me realize I had no idea that Ted Bundy spent any time on the east coast, but apparently he did, and they have him as a possible suspect for some killings 1969-1971. 

(Most likely unrelated, but it's hard not to think Bundy when it's the 70s and women with a certain look.)

1

Share Post


Link to post
3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Well, Sharon having a memory of her parents fighting and her father saying he'd killed someone is one thing. That's the kind of childhood memory I would find somewhat questionable. But Brian's memory of actually being there and going with them to dump the body while his uncle distracted him shooting guns? That a much more detailed and distinct memory than just hearing a conversation when he was a kid. He was there. I don't know why he'd have such an elaborate false memory. Given all of Billy's behavior afterwards I'd say the whole thing adds up.

But his nephew remembers her being killed inside her apartment, which isn't where she's believed to have disappeared from.  Then she's wrapped in a rug, which contradicts the neighbor who saw her trying to escape from her own car.  Plus there didn't seem to be any connection between Maskall and Billy.  My theory is Billy saw something and was threatened causing his unusual behavior.  I'm not sure about his nephew.

0

Share Post


Link to post

This episode made me especially angry. I'm a journalist and the FOIA runaround and the evidence "lost" infuriated me.

2

Share Post


Link to post

What a great documentary series.  I thought the filmmakers put everything together nicely, and the final episode was a great conclusion to wrap up the things we do know.  Ultimately, I was pretty convinced that the Catholic church had all the corroboration it needed on Maskell by the time Jane Doe came along in the 90s, and that their decision not to take definitive action at that point (or any point, really) to rectify the situation speaks volumes.  Not that we needed more proof that the church cared less about these victims than their image, but it's still worth pointing out every single time it happens; for the sake of the victims, and as a reminder that any organization can lose its way when it stops taking into account the concerns of its members.

I also walked away from the series thinking we had two different crimes that weren't necessarily related, though.  We have the sexual abuse occurring in various parishes in Baltimore at the time.  Then we had the murder of Sister Cathy.  To my recollection, the only thing we heard that connected the two were Jean's memories of seeing Cathy's body.  That's not enough evidence for me to say that I think Maskell was even involved in her death.  By that point,  Cathy had moved on to another school and hadn't, it seems, been able to hinder Maskell's activities in any way.  The idea that she was an imminent threat to him to be silenced wasn't proven to me.  For that case, I had the same reservations that others have mentioned about Koob.  His story at the police station was kind of bizarre, and then he had that typed note from Cathy about her feelings for him.  But...Cathy's sister talked about all the handwritten letters she received from Cathy, so it's strange to me that Koob would have received a typewritten one with such personal revelations.  Suspicious, sure, but not enough to hang a case on.

I wound up dismissing the Billy and Edgar digressions.  Ed seems like a bad guy, but we're not going to be able to unlock whatever is going on in his head.  Billy seemed to be pretty mixed up and ran with an eccentric crowd, but his attacking Cathy seems unlikely to me.   

Overall I appreciated that they told a cohesive story incorporating all that we know.  I think they honored the victims, and I sincerely applaud Abbie and Gemma for continuing to pursue a cause they feel very strongly about.  Good luck to them, and keep up the good work!

5

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

But his nephew remembers her being killed inside her apartment, which isn't where she's believed to have disappeared from. 

No, he said he never saw the actual murder. He was first in Sister Cathy's apartment then sent to his Uncle Billy's apartment. When he went looking for his Uncle Billy later, he was again sent back to Uncle Billy's apartment. I don't know that any of the Schmidts (or Skippy) were involved in the actual murder but I do believe they were responsible for dumping the body, which happened to be located behind their family business. It's possible Sister Cathy was killed elsewhere then brought back to her apartment with the original intention of leaving her there, only for it to be later decided to move her again for some reason. 

Edited by iMonrey.
0

Share Post


Link to post
5 hours ago, rwgrab said:

I also walked away from the series thinking we had two different crimes that weren't necessarily related, though.  We have the sexual abuse occurring in various parishes in Baltimore at the time.  Then we had the murder of Sister Cathy.  To my recollection, the only thing we heard that connected the two were Jean's memories of seeing Cathy's body.  That's not enough evidence for me to say that I think Maskell was even involved in her death.  By that point,  Cathy had moved on to another school and hadn't, it seems, been able to hinder Maskell's activities in any way.  The idea that she was an imminent threat to him to be silenced wasn't proven to me.  

This is ultimately where I came out too. There was zero evidence that Sister Cathy had done anything to confront Maskell. In fact, she left the school entirely, which seems completely the opposite of what you would do if you wanted to protect the girls there. I keep going back to the quote from one of the other women who was in nun-training (I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't know the correct terminology) with Cathy and Russell, and she said they were both "very compliant nuns." I think it's entirely possible that even if Sister Cathy had some idea of what was happening, and even if she said comforting and sympathetic things to some of Maskell's victims, she didn't actually do anything about it. The same level of unquestioning obedience to priests that primed the girls to be victims would also have been operating in a nun who bought into that system enough to devote her life to it.

I think the series does incredible work in documenting the sex abuse and the church's cover-up. I think it is actually not very good at all as an investigation of the murder. Throughout, it doesn't construct any coherent narrative about who killed Sister Cathy. Its position certainly seems to be that she was killed by Maskell or someone acting with him, but it spends an entire episode digressing on two unrelated randoms, and up to the very end, it comes down pretty heavy on Koob as a possible suspect, which wouldn't fit at all with the Maskell theory. The more weight it gives any of those theories, it actually ends up undercutting the connection to Maskell.

It all comes down to two women, really. Sister Russell, who might have been able to shed some light on what, if anything, Cathy had done about Maskell, but did not. (And honestly, shame on her for going to her grave without telling someone what she knew.) And Jean, if she recovers further memories that link Maskell to Sister Cathy.

9

Share Post


Link to post
On 5/30/2017 at 5:55 PM, iMonrey said:

No, he said he never saw the actual murder. He was first in Sister Cathy's apartment then sent to his Uncle Billy's apartment. When he went looking for his Uncle Billy later, he was again sent back to Uncle Billy's apartment. I don't know that any of the Schmidts (or Skippy) were involved in the actual murder but I do believe they were responsible for dumping the body, which happened to be located behind their family business. It's possible Sister Cathy was killed elsewhere then brought back to her apartment with the original intention of leaving her there, only for it to be later decided to move her again for some reason. 

So was she killed in the parkinglot then brought up to her apartment?  Or were they meeting in her apartment to discuss plans?  Unless Sister Russel was very involved this doesn't make sense to me.  Why would her apartment be the place to discuss plans not Billy's apartment or a dark alley.  Also his mother remembers his father coming home bloody but doesn't mention her son being with him or his uncle.  I know that if my husband came home bloody claiming he'd been in a bar fight I'd be livid.  But coming home bloody claiming a bar fight with our young son would be another whole can of worms.

0

Share Post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now